Will I really go to hell if I shave my samoyed? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 22 Old 11-12-2005, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Anyone ever shave their long haired pooch? Our samoyed has managed to evade capture for grooming time for a long time and meanwhile she has managed to make plenty of time to roll in poop and dead things. Every now and then we manage to catch her and bathe her but she tries to kill us if we approach with a brush. Her back end is now totally horrible (and yes, I know as the responsible humans we are to blame) and I think the only two solutions are either to sedate her and spend a day and a half brushing her or go and have her clipped enough to get the bulk of the mats out.

Everywhere I've looked I see warnings that you should never clip a long haired dog but all the pictures of clipped and previously clipped samoyeds show happy, smooth smiling dogs. I'm not seeing the kind of trauma I'd expect with the strength of the warnings.

What do you think? Will my dog never recover from the indignity? Will my karma never recover? Or will we have a temporarily short haired dog that doesn't smell or look like a dred locked rasta?

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#2 of 22 Old 11-12-2005, 06:25 PM
 
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OMG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YES!

A samoyeds triple layer coat is necassary to keep them cool/warm/protected. It's part of who they are and, my own Sammy anyway, would DIE if he was shaved!

I couldn't even read your entire post without responding to the first sentence! lol.

Find a groomer w/ sammy experiance too... otherwise they just make more of a mess of it. Grooming is MUCHO IMPORTANT for Samoyeds! We take ours in every 6 weeks to be brushed out (and his hair goes to a local spinner who makes it into yarn and makes stuff out of it to sell at craft shows!! How cool is that?) and they get about 2 bags (yard sized bags!!!!) out of him each time.

That first coat (the one closest to the body) actually forms kind of a "mat" over the entire body that protects a sammy. Don't shave him ! PLEASE
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#3 of 22 Old 11-12-2005, 06:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Plady
Everywhere I've looked I see warnings that you should never clip a long haired dog but all the pictures of clipped and previously clipped samoyeds show happy, smooth smiling dogs. I'm not seeing the kind of trauma I'd expect with the strength of the warnings.?
also, we just looked in our 3 samoyed books and saw NO clipped Sammies--- and NO MENTION of it either.
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#4 of 22 Old 11-12-2005, 06:31 PM
 
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It's not the mental effect, it's that the coat may never grow back properly and as said above, that coat is needed to keep the dog warm/cool depending on the season.
That said, I'm thinking your boy's coat may be too far gone--meaning that if you do pin him down to brush him, you may end with a bald dog anyway.
A coated dog (well any dog) should NEVER be bathed without first being brushed out. If his temperment is that volitile, take him to a groomer who works in a vet clinic and ask their opinion on it. I'm pretty against shaving coated dogs, but I have done a few where it was the best option (of a group of lousy options)
I had to shave my female GSD this spring when her entire body broke with a hot spot. Her coat grew back in fine, but her father's coat still looks funky where I shaved him to remove a mole 18 mos ago.
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#5 of 22 Old 11-12-2005, 06:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by shannon0218
.
That said, I'm thinking your boy's coat may be too far gone--.

Our last groomer in Colorado did Samoyeds on the "show circuit". He was awesome. He told us that a local person had their samoyed for 5 years and NEVER brushed him. They brought him in and he kept the dog for the entire day. Brushing him in for 1 hour at a time then doing other dogs in between for like 14 hours! The dog left w/ hair! So, there may be hope! Maybe not inexpensive hope---- but just think of it as an investment and lesson learned!

btw- my samoyed, sosa, must have been reading my mind because he just came up and is laying under my desk! lol.
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#6 of 22 Old 11-13-2005, 12:32 PM
 
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I have a dog with long double coat that I shave very summer, she is not as coated as a Sammy but she has a long thick coat. I have been told she will die, I am awful, her fur will never grow back She has yet to die, she is much more active when shaved in the summer and every fall her coat comes in just as beautiful as it was before. I have 2 cousins with Malamutes one is a plush (more coated than regular Mals) both of them shave their dogs every summer as well and they have yet to die, and their coats come back in just fine... I also have a friend that does Collie rescue and they get in Rough (long hair) Collies that often are so far gone with mats they need to be shaved. They look a little funny for a while but they dont die and their coats come back in just fine I have no idea why people think if you shave coated dogs they will die it just is not common sense? I also have no idea why they think that if shaved their coats will not grow back in? IME neither have happened...
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#7 of 22 Old 11-13-2005, 12:45 PM
 
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My parents have a Samoyed who they have shaved every summer - she's a much happier, cooler doggy.

I do understand how the triple coat works, but our groomer (who works with those kinds of dogs especially) said there's no harm in shaving them as long as you watch them for too much sun.

Our doggy's coat has always grown in fine come the fall.

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#8 of 22 Old 11-13-2005, 01:22 PM
 
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Ok, I'm not sure who said the dog would die, certainly not me. I will give you the reason it's not good for their coat though.
Top coat is the coat that protects the rest of the coat and also protects the dog. Top coat reduces shedding of undercoat. Top coat is water and weather resistant (a dog with good top coat can go out in heavy rain, come in give a shake and it's undercoat will be completely dry) Their coats have been developed this way over time to aid in the working ability of the dog (most double and triple coated dogs have descended from working lines) For instance, Newfoundlands have a very oily top coat, if your job was to jump into often frozen water to rescue humans, you too would want a water resistant layer and a thick soft insulating layer. Granted, most of our family pets no longer work, this doesn't mean we shouldn't take care of their coats as they were meant to be cared for.
Now, on the growing back issue. Undercoat cycles 4-6 times a year. Top coat cycles once a year. When you shave down a double or triple coated dog his undercoat grows back SIGNIFICANTLY quicker than his top coat. Sometimes (and not always) the top coat never grows back because undercoat is blocking it. This causes more shedding and especially more matting which is what leads to the vicious circle some groomers will tell you about once a shaved dog always a shaved dog. Undercoat that has no top coat to protect it is useless. It is not insulating in any way, so the dog who was shaved in the summer and doesn't have a proper top coat yet in the winter should be taken extra care of to protect in the cold weather (ie, coat or sweater, very limited outdoor time) Often undercoat does not grow back evenly and you end up with a very patchy coat. Also, the top coat can die and decide not to come back at ANY time. I have a client who shaved her golden every year for 5 yrs (from puppy hood) 2 yrs ago the top coat just never came back. I can attest it's the ugliest bloody golden I've ever seen with bald patches. It sheds copiously year round and does need to weat a sweater in the winter if she's out for longer than about 10 minutes or shes shivering.

One comprimise to all of this is to just shave the feathering on the bum, trim the feathering on the front legs and shave the belly coat. These areas have very little top coat to speak of so 98% of the time you can get away with that and not have any negative side effects.

Just like baby boys were meant to have a foreskin, double and triple coated dogs where meant to have a double or triple coat.
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#9 of 22 Old 11-13-2005, 01:25 PM
 
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Ok, I just saw the die comment. If I'm wrong I'm sorry, but I hardly think she meant the dog would physically die, I think she was more saying he'd "die" of embarassment. but just so we can put the whole "samoyeds will die if shaved" to bed.
NO, the dog will not suddenly clutch his doggy chest and croak if you shave him. (but he may hide in a corner)
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#10 of 22 Old 11-13-2005, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APBTLuv
I have a dog with long double coat that I shave very summer, she is not as coated as a Sammy but she has a long thick coat. I have been told she will die, I am awful, her fur will never grow back She has yet to die, she is much more active when shaved in the summer and every fall her coat comes in just as beautiful as it was before. I have 2 cousins with Malamutes one is a plush (more coated than regular Mals) both of them shave their dogs every summer as well and they have yet to die, and their coats come back in just fine... I also have a friend that does Collie rescue and they get in Rough (long hair) Collies that often are so far gone with mats they need to be shaved. They look a little funny for a while but they dont die and their coats come back in just fine I have no idea why people think if you shave coated dogs they will die it just is not common sense? I also have no idea why they think that if shaved their coats will not grow back in? IME neither have happened...

a samoyeds' hair is different then any of the above mentioned dogs. No, they will not die. But YES it is NOT the optimal choice.
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#11 of 22 Old 11-13-2005, 01:32 PM
 
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my dh just reminded me that, when Sosa was 1 1/2, we DID choose to shave his belly... the groomer said he'd done it before and that some sammys' do enjoy having a bald belly to "lay down on cool tile" in the summer. Well, our boys is intact and the groomer shaved all around the "family jewels". We totally underestimeated how much sosa enjoyed having his "jewels" in a furry hidden "nest", if you will. And he went nuts (ummmm no pun intended) messing with that area until the nest grew back in... almost 2 years later!L!L!L!L!
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#12 of 22 Old 11-13-2005, 01:35 PM
 
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Oooh, you should never shave close around the genetals in case of razer burn!!! I only ever use scissors around testicles or vulvas.
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#13 of 22 Old 11-13-2005, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for all the answers!
I think we are going to go ahead and have her clipped a bit. She just got out of control when on two different occaisions she found human feces in the country and rolled in it (gleefully I might add). Although we were usually pretty good about brushing first, nobody was volunteering to brush first, bathe later. There was also the issue of getting her home, we all agreed that wet dog in the car was far far better than poopy dog in the car. So now she's got a nice solid layer of mat.
However, I will be sure that she doesn't get shorn too closely and we'll make sure she doesn't get a sunburn. I think her fur will grow back no problem as she is really a samoyed mix so she's never nearly as fluffy as purebreds appear to be.

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#14 of 22 Old 11-13-2005, 05:43 PM
 
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Another vote to say don't shave a sam! We grew up with one (one of the best dogs I've ever known) and among other things they will SUNBURN very easily without their coat. We live in Houston where it is HOT HOT HOT and she was always comfortable. Sams have a different kind of coat from most other dogs.

Though interestingly ours never got mats. at all. We did try to keep her brushed especially when she was blowing her coat, but hey, it was a busy house with two kids- we were far from perfect, and I never remember mats being a problem.

-Angela
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#15 of 22 Old 11-14-2005, 01:24 AM
 
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Ok, I just saw the die comment. If I'm wrong I'm sorry, but I hardly think she meant the dog would physically die, I think she was more saying he'd "die" of embarassment.
I though that is what she meant as well, I was just saying in general... I have have had people tell me that coated dogs if shaved will literally die and I have seen people say this on dog boards before. I dont know why they think that but they do.
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#16 of 22 Old 11-14-2005, 02:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shannon0218
Oooh, you should never shave close around the genetals in case of razer burn!!! I only ever use scissors around testicles or vulvas.
I KNOW!!!!!!!!! I believe they DID use scissors in that area... but still!
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#17 of 22 Old 11-14-2005, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well mamas, many of you will be happy to know that this thread has convinced dh (the leader in the push to clip) not to take Xoche to the groomers at all but to spend a few evenings with a beer and a brush to work on getting out the evil. I'm not sure what exactly convinced him but he has been quoting the line about circumcision to everyone he can find.
Last night he worked on the top half of her butt, this evening I think he is planning to go for the undercarriage.

So thank you all for the input, if I can figure out how to do it I'll try to post an after picture.


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#18 of 22 Old 11-14-2005, 01:27 PM
 
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Plady. I'm glad he liked my really weird analogy
Just so you know, a couple things that may help and are pretty cheap. Make up a spray with 1/4 oil (I like almond, but you can use anything as long it's not real heavy) and the rest water with about a tbsp of vinegar. Spray that on the coat or even on the brush to help the process. Next, on areas that are matted, pick up one of the cheap envelope openers--you know the ones with the blade encased in a plastic thing--usually stationary stores have them with their logo on them super cheap. If an area is matted badly, spray some of the oil solution on and then sweep the opener through a few times ALWAYS go the same direction the coat goes in. With the thin plastic edge, get down to the skin and then pull the blade down. This enables you to split the mats without danger of cutting the dog. It makes things easier but don't do it just for tiny mats as it will cut the coat (obviously) and a coat that's been cut does tend to matt a bit easier until the new coat grows in.
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#19 of 22 Old 11-16-2005, 12:09 AM
 
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So, how goes operation furry samoyed??
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#20 of 22 Old 11-16-2005, 12:21 AM
 
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Ok, chiming in here as a professional groomer....

I've shaved a few sams in my day, don't like doing it. I have seen this type of coat shaved once and do well, if youshave constantly, or even hand scissor it down on a regular basis, it most always comes back just as Shannon described above - a thick undercoat and sparse wirey looking outercoat sticking thru. It's Ugly with a capitol letter!

The envelope opener idea is a good one. When mats are this bad, I dont worry too much about cutting coat, it is simply going to happen. You always want to use a tool like that at a 90 degree angle to the body and NEVER NEVER pick up a mat, pull it away from the body and try to cut it out. When you pick up a mat, the skin under it moves up too. This often happens at the back of the ear on long coated breeds when that soft coat mats up behind the ears. Owner picks up the mat and tries to cut it out/off and gets the thin skin there too!

As for bathing a matted coat first. It is very possible to do this but only recommended when you have professional tools and coat conditioners. I often bathe once to get the loose dirt, rinse thoroughly, bathe again, apply coat conditioner, rinse, apply a leave in coat conditioner and use a special dryer to blow most all the water out of the coat. Put dog in cage with warm air dryer on it for a bit. Then get dog out on table and use a stand dryer to blow and seperate the coat while brushing. A clean conditioned coat releases mats and stuck undercoat far more readily than a dirty one. NOW - NEVER bathe a matted dog without totally following through and blow drying and brushing to the skin! If you bathe and towel dry and come back two days later to do a little brush out....you will have set the mats that were there to start with in even tighter and created several new ones as well. Bathing a matted dog is best left to professionals. We have special power bather units to get the dog clean and to get conditioners all the way to the skin. We also have special high velocity dryers to remove water and loose hair.

Bathing a matted dog is much more successful if it's a double coated dog. It is not as easy to do with a poodle or shis tzu.

I can highly recommend a product called The Stuff for dematting. It is a spray on conditioner, silicone based, and it will really assist in brushing out. You can get if from Ped Edge online.

Good luck!
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#21 of 22 Old 11-16-2005, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Mamas,

Well, we're about 3/4 of the way to having a groomed dog! DH spent a couple of hours one day on her haunches, the next day we both worked on her underbelly and some more time on her haunches. The next day she found some poop to roll in (where I haven't a clue!) so dh washed her very thoroughly and did some more brushing out while she was still wet. Then I blow dried her a bit (until she looked like she really might come kill me in my sleep if I didn't leave her alone for a while). Meanwhile we have been picking out the clumps and tufts of undercoat that have been rising to the surface. Tonight we'll do another, possibly final, session with the brush and modified letter opener. She already looks like a normal (and much slighter) dog and I think even she is appreciating the benefits of relative cleanliness as now when we scratch her butt she can actually feel it! And really, aside from her coyote-like yips and screams she makes through the muzzle while she's being brushed, she hasn't minded the process nearly as much as we'd expected.

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#22 of 22 Old 10-23-2013, 10:02 AM
 
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animalwhisper, your post has been removed. Personal attacks are not permitted. Please post in a respectful manner to voice any disagreeing opinion you may hold about a topic and make it a discussion of the topic, not the individual.


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