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#1 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was talking to a friend who just got a puppy (this is not her first; she's had 2 other dogs and worked for a vet). She believes that you have to hit/kick/hold down a dog when you get it (not immediately afteward, but basically, when it's a puppy) to let it know that you (the owner) are the leader in the pack. She said that since that's how it is in the wild (with canines fighting physically for dominance), that a human owner must do the same to establish dominance. She doesn't like treat-training because it isn't "natural" (and admittedly, I don't know much about dog training, but I don't like to see a dog being hurt). What do I say? What's a better way? We're all about NFL here, so what's the NFL way to train your dog?
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#2 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 03:22 PM
 
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I think she has her information a little twisted. Sure we have to establish that we are the leaders but causing pain (kicking, hitting) is not the way to do it. There is a book called "The Dog Listener" that really explains calm, gentle ways to establish your leadership without ever causing your dog any pain. I'm not really experienced with dogs either but that book was really informative imo. Maybe suggest it to her and tell her that it follows her basic way of thinking (demonstrating leadership).

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#3 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 03:24 PM
 
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I'm not sure what NFL means, but it is sickening that someone would do that to a poor puppy. Especially when gentle methods work so much better. I started my two rescues on Clicker training the day I got them and they are some of the best trained dogs I know. (and I'm not just bragging) If you don't know what clicker training is, it's using a small clicker, or anything that makes a short audible sound, to pinpoint the exact moment that the dog is doing something right. You completely ignore bad behavior, unless it's destructive (in which case you redirect their attention) and only reward good behavior. My dogs understood pottying outside in two days and knew sit stay and down in one week. Why why why make a dog distrust you for the rest of their lives when you can earn their total and utter devotion without hurting them?

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#4 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 03:24 PM
 
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That's some majorly misunderstood stuff about dog behavior (on her part--not your's) First off-dog's don't kick each other, nor do they punch or hit each other.
Perhaps get her to do some reading on the PROPER use of a prong collar--that mimics natural behavior in that the prong simulates biting the back of the dog's neck.
All this said--dogs do not "punish" each other unless something unacceptable is actualy being done at that moment--this is one of my primary issues with gentle leaders and haltis-the reason they work is that they dominate the dog by placement of the device--but the dog always feels/sees the thing there, therefore a sensitive dog can feel like they are being constantly dominated and therefore never right.

I'm also not a fan of food training, I will use food as a motivator to get a dog through a difficult excercise, but I want my dog to work for me, not food.

Some books she may want to check out are The Monks of New Skete, How to be your dog's best friend. Also "Training in Drive" by Dildae. Brian Kilcomons also has some good material but he does use some food training (so does Dildae but it's in more of a motivational method during tough excercises)

What kind of dog is this she has????
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#5 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 03:33 PM
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When Rain was in "Annie", the trainers for the dog they used for "Sandy" worked like this. It was awful, the poor dog was always scared, and the girl playing Annie was always worried that he'd go bolting offstage to grovel at the trainer's feet, which is what he wanted to do. One they got him to go out to her, she had to keep a tight grip on his collar and keep giving him treats... but in the green room, the trainer was always sitting on him and shaking him for something he'd done on stage.

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#6 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 04:57 PM
 
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ITA w/ PPs .
there are several issues/misconceptions going on here.

ITA with the book suggestions too!

inflicting pain is a very wrong thing but OTOH a hard correction looks to the untrained eye as "mean"

while some dogs need "hard" correction others can be trained with "soft"

while AP/NFL are 1 thing with human kids, K9 are a diff species & behaviour is different.

Clearly, your friend has some of her training concepts a tad mixed up.
I'd be upset also.
Do suggest the book & other training methods pps listed

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#7 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 07:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon0218
Perhaps get her to do some reading on the PROPER use of a prong collar--that mimics natural behavior in that the prong simulates biting the back of the dog's neck.
I'm also not a fan of food training, I will use food as a motivator to get a dog through a difficult excercise, but I want my dog to work for me, not food.

What kind of dog is this she has????
This is exactly what our dog trainer taught us. Prong collar looks bad, but it does mimic what the mom would do to the pups and doesn't hurt the dog. It worked like a charm. They also told us not to train with food. The dog is supposed to do what you want because he respects you and wants your praise and approval, not food (and certainly not scared of you). Poor puppy - why is she training it herself anyway? Maybe she needs help finding a good place to take pups for training and socialization. I hope she doesn't have kids either!!
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#8 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 07:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
When Rain was in "Annie", the trainers for the dog they used for "Sandy" worked like this. It was awful, the poor dog was always scared, and the girl playing Annie was always worried that he'd go bolting offstage to grovel at the trainer's feet, which is what he wanted to do. One they got him to go out to her, she had to keep a tight grip on his collar and keep giving him treats... but in the green room, the trainer was always sitting on him and shaking him for something he'd done on stage.

Dar
my sweetie is the production manager at a theatre. his dog played annie one year and was wonderful!!! she would pause mid-stage and look out at the audience. she loved performing.
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#9 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 08:07 PM
 
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My Timber played the dog in The Miracle Worker once. We had trouble cause he didn't like men touching kids, so the father always had to have liver in his hands. We practiced for weeks, then we had our opening night at a dinner theatre--not where the rest of the play would be shown and not where we practiced. Well Timber's part happened to be during desert and the tables came right up to the stage. The way we trained him to hit his mark was setting a tiny piece of liver on the stage at his mark, he'd go out, find his liver and lay down. So this night, I send him out, he picks up his liver and then looks forward adn sees people with desert. He walked out to the table, onto these people's table and proceeded to eat their desert. The one guy tried to shoo him but he snarled a bit (this dog really disliked men in general) so they just let him eat desert, the whole theatre was laughing like mad by the time I got control of him again!
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#10 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, ladies! Do any of those books talk about the prong collar training?
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#11 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 08:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skybluepink02
I'm not sure what NFL means, but it is sickening that someone would do that to a poor puppy. Especially when gentle methods work so much better. I started my two rescues on Clicker training the day I got them and they are some of the best trained dogs I know. (and I'm not just bragging) If you don't know what clicker training is, it's using a small clicker, or anything that makes a short audible sound, to pinpoint the exact moment that the dog is doing something right. You completely ignore bad behavior, unless it's destructive (in which case you redirect their attention) and only reward good behavior. My dogs understood pottying outside in two days and knew sit stay and down in one week. Why why why make a dog distrust you for the rest of their lives when you can earn their total and utter devotion without hurting them?

nfl=natural family living
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#12 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 08:29 PM
 
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I know Training in Drive talks extensively about prong collar use.
I'm usually careful giving out this website as the guy is very much a working dog trainer so his methods can *seem* harsh--but nowhere NEAR as harsh as she's talking about, so she may want to check out
www.leerburg.com
He has an extensive list of articles written by him and some others. He is a master trainer who trained in Europe. He's got some excellent articles on prong collar use and also a LOT of information on becoming "top dog"
Another website that talks extensively about prong collars (although recently he's hooked up with a shock collar company and is really pushing them--unneccessarily so IMO.)
www.dogproblems.com
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#13 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 08:30 PM
 
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Wow! She's just going to make that dog aggressive trying to defend itself! We use prong collars for our dogs, too. DH does search and rescue with his (mine is too high anxiety) and they are big on giving lots of praise and acting excited when the dog does the action asked. DH still uses treats, though.
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#14 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 09:46 PM
 
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To the OP-- you said she's previously had dogs and worked in a vet's office. Unfortunately, in my experience, sometimes people who have dogs and/or work in a vet's office believe this makes them experts and they really have a hard time accepting the opinions of others. If it were my friend, I would let her know how uncomfortable it made me to see an animal treated like that, and I would let her know why. What defense does this small puppy have against her? I would have a very hard time being around someone like that. We trained our dogs without any special equipment, and that includes a feral shepherd we adopted when she was 4 and a ferocious fighter. We never hit her or kicked her or put her on her back. In fact, I am sure that would have made things worse. While they could never be in any kind of show or performance, they are well trained enough to walk off leash throughout the city and the woods, which we've been doing for 14 years.

I'm a big believer that every dog has its own temperment, and some need stronger training than others but that does not mean hitting, kicking or holding them down. I hope you can convince her there's a better way, but if she sees herself as an expert and you as 'not', it's probably an uphill battle. Your biggest leverage may come from letting her know you can't be around her if she treats her dog that way (If that is how you feel).
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#15 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 11:18 PM
 
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The book by the Monks of Skete talks about prong collars. I really hope you help your friend see that hurting her dog is NOT the way to get it to respect her.

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#16 of 24 Old 12-29-2005, 11:26 PM
 
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I admittedly don't know a lot about dog training. I have owned many dogs growing up and now we have two. I have only had to train one and it did not go well. The dog had something wrong with him (I'm thinking a learning delay of some sort) and we ended up giving him to a dog trainer who also had a difficult time training him.

That said, the best trained dogs I have ever come across belonged to a man my mom was married to. They lived on a ranch and needed to be very well behvaed. They needed to be able to stay out of the machine/large animals/plane's way. But they couldn't be cowaring (sp?) messes.

We got to talking (me and my mom's ex) and somehow we got talking about training dogs. Although I do not agree with him on anything what he said kind of made sense to me. "When you get a dog they need to know what they can and can get away with. Hands are for loving them. You pet them, you play with them, you give them treats, and you feed them with your hands. Discipline/punishment is for your feet. If you seperate the "dutys" of each one then the dog doesn't get confused and is more easily trained."

I don't agree with kicking a dog but the point of making a distinction makes sense. I don't think being mean to an animal gets it through their head not to do something but I do think force is sometimes needed in certain situations (like when your neutered too soon dog takes a liking to the duck ). SOrry if I'm not a ton of help but wanted to share.

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#17 of 24 Old 12-30-2005, 02:44 AM
 
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The trainer I used years ago was a student of Ian Dunbar's positive training mthods. I just found a wonderful link you can share with your friend: training-dog.com-- Here's an excerpt:

This website emphasizes the positive approaches to training dogs, ones that enhance your dogs' natural trust and willingness. I draw on the work of Dr. Ian Dunbar, Silvia Kent, Linda Tellington-Jones, and quite a few others. Training dogs can be a win-win for everyone!

There are thoughtful people who advocate the careful use of devices that do cause pain in training dogs, especially when the problem seems intractable. I believe that in training dogs, many methods will work and I generally respect others' beliefs. But many dog trainers have crossed over to using only pain-free methods of training dogs. And that is what this website is about.


Makes me wish I had a puppy to train again! Tell your friend there is a better way.
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#18 of 24 Old 12-30-2005, 06:59 AM
 
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Shannon -

I'm a huge fan of Ed Frawley's training, I understand what you mean about sometimes non-trainers misunderstanding him, but I'm glad you put the leerburg website out there. It has great resources and Ed has always been very helpful with giving me help when I was working with my GSD.

Are you still working with GSDs and are you on the west coast by chance? I left all my dogs and schutzund training out there when I moved to the midwest. I miss it so much sometimes.

Just curious, you can private message me if you want.

Messianic mama to 3 boys, C (4 yrs), E (22 mths), B (newborn)
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#19 of 24 Old 12-30-2005, 08:07 AM
 
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Instead of a prong collar, I highly recommend the gentle leader. Dog's have an instinct to pull against things that are up against them. This is why they pull even with a collar and often with a prong collar. The gentle leader works with the dog's instincts without "biting" them by putting pressure on the back of their head instead of on their neck, so they resist the pressure by slowing down and holding their head higher. It looks like a muzzle but gives them plenty of room to open their mouths to pant and drink and eat if need be, but it's mostly useful for walks. It doesn't work for training the "come" command because pulling or tugging it towards yourself only encourages them to stand still or pull backwards.

For "come" training I strongly advocate sitting across the room and calling your dog by their name, praising and petting when they get there. Treats are cool and all, but dogs love affection. It's also a good way to get them to appreciate your affection. Never using the dog's name or telling them to "come" when you are angry or using a growly tone of voice is important in reinforcing the "come" command.

As far as potty training is concerned, using a lower tone of voice to mimic growling and sternly saying "no", then wiping up the pee or picking up the poop, bringing it outside and praising/giving affection works really well for a lot of dogs. Also, never giving dogs the opportunity to have accidents and praising outdoor peeing and pooping is the key.

I have always shown my dogs I was "boss" the same way I have shown my dd, by being gentle, but firm when it is important. There's no need for authoritarianism and bulling to get that message across. IMO, your friend will end up with and aggressive dog using violence to establish authority.
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#20 of 24 Old 12-30-2005, 12:34 PM
 
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Jen I'm in Canada, I've only met Ed Frawley once at a trial but had a great time with him. I work a lot with Paul Cippererone out here, he's similar, in that he's very much a trainer's trainer but for aggitation work and for tracking he's awesome (although when my dog's don't bite well he always asks me if they need a couch to sit on )
I still own my top working shepherd but he's 11 now and retired after he ruptured a disc in his back a few years ago. He was an incredible SAR dog, he's got his Sch III along with his AD and received a perfect score during his very first FH test. He's not much of a protection dog (at least not sport wise, you have to piss him off to bring out much fight in him) but his tracking and scent work is unbelievable! With my previous sport dogs I just put up with tracking in the name of the sport, with Havoc it became my passion, he is so amazing to watch, even at 11 I shake my head at what he can do.
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#21 of 24 Old 12-30-2005, 05:12 PM
 
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Shannon,

I had several dogs that I raised from puppy-dom for the police department out by Sacramento. I had one dog, Beau, that I kept, bought him from the vet I worked with (the late Joe Shackelford in Auburn, CA) and trained with John Riboni briefly. John and Joe owned a few dogs together before Joe died two years ago. When I moved to Nebraska 8 yrs ago, I sold Beau back to Joe and he became a SAR dog up in the ski-resort area. I think I cried about Beau for 4 years at least, he was my greatest training accomplishment and my dearest friend, but I couldn't give him the work he needed to be happy.

John Riboni has apparently made quite a name for himself since then. I 'googled' him and was surprised to see how many hits there were as well as the names he was listed as. I knew him back when he'd just gotten out of the police department and I housesat for him, sleeping on his hammock on the front deck!

Someday, I'll get back into all that again. My bigges thing is to get into USAR, was hoping Ruger could do it, but he's just too goofy and dopey still (3yrs old, who knows maybe he'll get better).

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#22 of 24 Old 12-30-2005, 05:23 PM
 
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Define USAR?? (only cause everyone seems to have a USAR!) Havoc has FEMA certification for SAR and Cadaver. He also got his RCMP certification for general SAR. We are members of NASAR (have been since long before Havoc-my last dog Timber was a good SAR dog, but he was no Havoc)
NASAR is probably your best bet, they have certification courses often in the States. Goofy is ok, especially for scent work, I'd get him started anyway if it's what you want to do.
Right now I am working dog free (at least I don't own one) until the baby is a bit older. The time commitment to get a Sch or SAR dog ready before he's too old to work well is just too huge--and running my business from home hasn't been nearly as easy as I thought it would be! I currently have a Dutch Shepherd here that I'm putting narcotics work on and frankly I'm a little in love with him. I trained his dad last year and now the force has bred him and this is one of his pups--better than dad, I'm considering telling them he got lost
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#23 of 24 Old 12-30-2005, 05:26 PM
 
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Oh and I've met John, he and I lectured at a seminar, he was on after me--I had severe morning sickness--he could see me everytime I turned away and used the projector screen to hide from my audience--he was laughing so damn hard by the time he went on.
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#24 of 24 Old 12-31-2005, 02:20 AM
 
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USAR - Urban Search & Rescue, they are with FEMA and have a predominate base of firefighters in our group. That's how I know most of them, I used to work a lot with firefighters.

I could totally see John laughing at you, he was a fun guy to be around. I wish I had been more active when I was out there, I could have learned a lot more. I spent a lot of time just playing with my GSD instead of training, I wasn't very serious.

Someday, I'll get another GSD puppy, I've had my heart set on a sable (I know, it's a color, but...) since I sold Beau.

Now that I've monopolized this discussion about Sch, I'll leave it at that.


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