So are all mutts "designer" now - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 100 Old 05-11-2006, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I like to scan the online classifieds for the perfect second dog I'm really just window shopping another animal won't fit in our life right now, but hey if the perfect one was there......

Anyway I've been noticing all these "mutts" are now being called hybrids, best of both worlds, blah blah, not just the poodle crosses but everything seems to be the lastest "get these beauties now" kind of thing.


Now I understand an adoption fee so that people are serious about the commitment, but 400 (or way more) for a random mix, just because it's cute?

I mean if this is the case then our dog is the most amazing designer of all.

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#2 of 100 Old 05-11-2006, 08:55 PM
 
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It is weird. My neighbor the other day...was telling me all about her mini poodle/schnauzer cross. A Schnoodle? The prices they sell these dogs for is just crazy!
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#3 of 100 Old 05-11-2006, 10:34 PM
 
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I am of two minds on it. (And as a show breeder I think I'm just about the only one I know that even allows the THOUGHT of it--most show breeders start foaming at the mouth when anything ends in -poo.)

I have seen a VERY few quality breeding operations that are genuinely trying to hybridize certain breeds and have the best interests of the dog in mind. The current labradoodle craze was begun when an Australian version of Guide Dogs for the Blind crossed their specially bred Labs and Poodles. I think there is SOME evidence that crossing with poodles does confer some desirable traits.

However, what goes on here in most cases is nothing more than puppy-milling or back-yard-breeding under a different name. They don't cross the best to the best, they cross some backyard-bred Lab who doesn't conform with the breed standard and may have a very questionable temperament, and who has zero health testing, with a similar poodle, and then sell the offspring for insane prices.

The rule when buying hybrids is exactly the same as when you're buying a purebred--buy from a breeder who health-tests, whose dogs are high-quality representatives of the breed, who raises all puppies inside the house in a clean, enriching environment, and who subjects his or her dogs to some sort of peer evaluation like competitive obedience, agility, flyball, service dog status, etc.
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#4 of 100 Old 05-11-2006, 11:05 PM
 
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At least locally I see far too many ads for 'oops' litters that have cutesy names, and dubious breeding practices :
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#5 of 100 Old 05-11-2006, 11:47 PM
 
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So silly....but ya know, if there's a market, some dork will fill it.
About 8 yrs ago we had an ooops litter of Giant Schnauzer/German Shepherd crosses (new neighbor....tied a Giant schnauzer she as SHOWING out in the front yard...my Havoc, studly beast that he is braved the invisible fence to go check it out....very funny looking pups resulted )
We gave the pups away. It was a joke at the time what could we call them. Little did we know we could have received top dollar for those munchkins if we could have found some neat name for them...Schnauzherds maybe...?
I saw one the other day, nice dog, but it's a MUT!!!!!!!!!! just like all the other mutts that don't have a cutsie name!!!!!!

whenever I hear about them I can't help but think of my clients who bought a "rare" long haired Rottweiller. Ummm, ok, congrats on paying $5000 for a fault.
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#6 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by shannon0218
So silly....but ya know, if there's a market, some dork will fill it.
There is a lot of truth to this. A few months back, the pugle (pug/beagle) was the hot dog in hollywood. Now, I've heard that the pugle is no longer the hot dog in hollywood - it is now the schnoodle. I know a lady with 5 of them, the mom and four puppies all grown up. She rescued them all from a local reservation where they were unwanted. They are a great band, well-cared for, etc. She calls them schnoodles just for fun. They were oops dogs. I think if it happens as an oops and you can get the pups for free or very little money, that is ok. But, when the crossing is done for money, just to make a buck because it is a trend nowadays, then you can potentially get into trouble making dogs that have problems or will have problems or who are simply not worth the price the "breeders" are charging.

I met a woman recently who has a goldendoodle (golden retreiver/poodle). She told me she actually shopped for the cheapest price and that the dog she got was very ill when she purchased him for $600 bucks from a backyard breeder and that the yard was filthy and the puppies were living in squalid conditions. That is a very stupid woman, imo, to perpetuate irresponsible breeding of dogs by buying a sick one from a person who obviously was not doing it for the love of dogs. Stupid people do stupid trendy things.

But, it is also fun to give your dog a funny "hybrid" title, whether you purchased him or not. I hang out at a large off-leash park with my labradoodle and we all love to "name" our dogs. And, my doodle came from a reputable breeder who has been breeding dogs and horses for many years. There is a huge difference between a real labradoodle (yes they are a recognized breed in many countries - check out this website for more info) and the ones that come from puppy mills and back yards.

As with the purchase of any pet, it is really buyer beware. This goes for birds, reptiles, cats, dogs, etc. Any responsible person should do research before they purchase or adopt a pet and be responsible about where the pet comes from and how it will be raised in its new homes. Many people are not responsible with their pets. And, many people do not do research into where their pets come from and this inadvertently supports the puppy (and kitten and chick, etc) mill operations. Unfortunately, there are no laws to control these operations. But, there should be and we can all do something to help those laws be enacted. You can find information about stopping puppy mills at www.stoppuppymills.org and at the humane society's website www.hsus.org.
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#7 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 02:21 PM
 
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When I was in college (read:young and stupid) I REALLY wanted a Chihuahua toy poodle mix I saw one a a mall pet store (ugghhh) Luckly, I did not have the $500 for it 10 years ago. I still think it was one of the cutest dogs ever. I called it a poo-huahua (thought it was funnier than what they had it labled as: chi-a-poo)

I think the Chihuahua/mini Daschund breeds are cute also. A friends mom has two from an Oops litter, but I have seen them for sale for outrageous amounts.

Now I have a rescue mini Daschund , and a Boxer from a friends litter

Well I am off to the vet for poor Boxer (Jasper) he somehow tore out a toenail

Kim, mama to Anna Blair 11/23/07
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#8 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kimnicole428
I called it a poo-huahua (thought it was funnier than what they had it labled as: chi-a-poo) (
That is very funny! The names are a good laugh. Check this out for more funny names. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/american...hybridclub.htm

I think the fun of naming the "hybrid" dog is what is driving this trend. Personally, I like the "oodle" mixes: whoodle, doodle, schnoodle, etc.
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#9 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 02:41 PM
 
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Unfortunately the naming trend is also making puppy mills and irresponsible breeding even worse in spite of the fact that the public now knows about the horrors of mills. Often adding oodle is the ONLY factor that makes it suddenly hunkey dorey for some idiot to ask money for a mut.

Personally I think this trend is the demise of the dog world.
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#10 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 02:47 PM
 
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Persoanlly, I think Labradoodles are cute as heck, look like a mini-Irish wolfhound to me. I've always wanted a "wolfie" but DH thinks they are too big for our little house. He is partly right there, that and the low life-span puts me off. Labradoodles are reputed to have the hypo-allergenic qualities of poodles too, no dander - so for me with allergies, no sneezing is a bonus. But mostly, I just think they are cute as heck.

As for the silly hybrid names, what would you call a coonhound/Aussie mix? a Coonsie? Coonhound Shepherd? Aussie-hound? Coonperd? Whatever you call it - my Augie is adorable.

I've always been a huge fan of mutts - I figure - someone will always bu a dog from a breeder - but lots of sweet and lovable mutts get put down everyday. Were I to get a labradoodle, it'll be thru Petfinder or some such organization.
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#11 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 02:48 PM
 
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I think the Chihuahua/mini Daschund breeds are cute also. A friends mom has two from an Oops litter, but I have seen them for sale for outrageous amounts
Wait, I think that's what my little dog is! She's a rescue, so we are just guessing...what do they look like? And what do they call them? Chi-hunds? dasch-huahuas?

Anyway, designer dog fads annoy me. Both of my dogs are mutts (the other is a lab/great dane mix...a labradane? ) but they were rescues so I didn't pay for them. My lab has hip problems that are probably going to deteriorate into serious pain for him in a few years, it would be so sad if someone were actually breeding his parents on purpose. There are plenty of dogs who need good homes if you want a mix, and I wouldn't encourage the practice by actually paying money for someone to backyard breed their dogs...if I'm going to pay breeder prices I'm going to a reputable breeder who actually *cares* about their dogs and perpetuating good lines instead of poor ones.

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#12 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 02:54 PM
 
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Thank you, that was the point i was attempting to get across, by playing into it all by paying money for these dogs we are just causing the problem to get worse....cause I can't tell you how many times a client has come to me and said "Ohhhh no, it's not a puppy mill dog!! Just this family who bred their 2 dogs"
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#13 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 02:55 PM
 
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I like the Schnauzer mixes! I had a Schnauzer/Labmix for over a decade and he was so smart and sweet. I got him for free. In fact I was offered $50 by his owners to take him to the pound but I refused and kept him myself.
A couple of months after Buddy died I brought in a stray dog that looks like he has some Schnauzer in him, too. Just adorable. I figrued for sure somebody would miss this wonderful dog, but nobody has claimed him so I got another Schnauzer mix to spend the next decade with.
That;'s South Side San Antonio though. There is a pet shop on the Northside (close to where we have our Bradley classes) and they are selling all kinds of mixed breeds like that for $300. Depends on where you are looking I guess...
Plus we rarely get puppies. If you are willing to take a 1 or a 2 year old dog you can have almost anything because that's when people get tired of them. In my experience it also is just about the time when most dogs really mature and grow into themselves and become super dogs so it's my prefered age.
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#14 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 04:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rebeccalizzie
Wait, I think that's what my little dog is! She's a rescue, so we are just guessing...what do they look like? And what do they call them? Chi-hunds? dasch-huahuas?
.
lol - they are really cute. they are tall like the CHI, they really dont have long bodies a little longer than a Dasch, the face is really cute the nose is like the perfect length. I had to ask what they were they kinda reminded me of dainty min pins.


Here is my favorite dog shopping page.
http://www.lonestarboxerrescue.com/rescue.shtml

We are doggiesitting Jasper's (the boxer) sister Riley for another week or so. We have had her for 2 weeks. We found that Jasper really likes to have another big dog around to play with...so I am tryign to convince DH we need another. I like Mint, Roxanne, and Brinkley. Would have to test Mint and Brinkley with Kids and a Kitty. Plus they have Heartworms. DH said he wouldnt take either until they were cured said he couldnt stand to get attached then lose them.

Kim, mama to Anna Blair 11/23/07
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#15 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 09:10 PM
 
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I have some neighbors who paid $1200 for a labradoodle and they were so excited! They told me that she was a new breed of dog and they were going to breed her and make lots of money. The people they bought it from told them the breed was recognized by the AKC and they could get papers. I told them the scoop and I don't think they believed me. I will have to keep my eye out for their "papered" puppies when they breed her! The funny thing (I thought) is that the dog's parents weren't both labradoodles or even one of each - one was a labradoodle and one was a standard poodle. So I guess you can mix them up every which way and still call them "oodles"?
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#16 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 09:13 PM
 
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I have some neighbors who paid $1200 for a labradoodle and they were so excited! They told me that she was a new breed of dog and they were going to breed her and make lots of money. The people they bought it from told them the breed was recognized by the AKC and they could get papers. I told them the scoop and I don't think they believed me. I will have to keep my eye out for their "papered" puppies when they breed her! The funny thing (I thought) is that the dog's parents weren't both labradoodles or even one of each - one was a labradoodle and one was a standard poodle. So I guess you can mix them up every which way and still call them "oodles"?
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#17 of 100 Old 05-12-2006, 09:34 PM
 
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That's the problem I have, I remember 20 yrs ago when my neighbors bought a Cock-a-poo and told me they would be approved for registration ANY DAY NOW!!! Ummm, sure, no problem, don't hold your breath k??
The thing is, there is no valid purpose for any of these crosses. If you want a nonshedding larger dog, get a friggin standard poodle--and don't give me the line of "crosses have fewer health problems" that depends on what you cross, so if you cross the 2 dogs with the absolute highest percentage of health problems...get what???
I remember about 10 yrs ago some moron decided he was going to produce the perfect police dog. He crossed German Shepherds with Belgian Malinois. Yep, he could have got the best of both worlds, the loyalty & versitility of the shepherd and the unbelievable bite work of a Mal, but instead he got a bunch of anxious nutbars that couldn't track their way out of a paper bag. And guess what, they all had to be killed because they were VERY unsafe--they had the loyalty of the shepherd with the will bite anything that moves of the belgian. Horrible, horrible horrible experiment and 9 puppies had to pay with their lives. But maybe if he'd had a cutsie name it would have been a success.
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#18 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 01:20 AM
 
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On AKC: There IS something called the foundation stock registry at AKC. That's how breeds like the coonhounds are working on becoming AKC registerable; pedigrees from UKC and private records are kept for a long number of years and the breed is eventually declared pure enough to qualify for AKC recognition. Now whether that's any good for the breed at all is a good question, but people who say that such and such breed "is working on AKC recognition" are not necessarily lying.

However, the -poo and -oodle (and puggle and everything else) are HYBRIDS, not breeds. Breeds breed "true" after years and years of careful planning; if you breed two Italian Spinone you should be able to have puppies that all look like Spinone. Hybrids are the exact opposite--if you breed a lab and a poodle, you'll get a litter of puppies that basically look the same because the lab-poodle genes are each contributing half. That first litter is actually relatively predictable, as livestock breeders who cross angus and hereford or plant breeders who cross two strains of wheat know well.

Where the wrench comes in is when two hybrids are bred, or if a hybrid is bred back to a parent breed. NOW you've got a problem. If the labradoodle has a medium-sized nose because poodles have long thin noses and labs have short broad noses, you breed it to another hybrid and the two genes for long thin noses may meet. Or the two for short broad noses. It's very common to have a second generation litter in which a few puppies look like the parents (basically a mixture of the two original breeds), a few look like purebred poodles, and a few are indistinguishable from purebred labs--at least in size, coat length and head type, which is all we really look at when we recognize a dog. Temperament is the same deal--in that second generation you can get something very poodly or very labby or the worst of both, like Shannon said.

That's why the VERY few responsible Labradoodle breeders (like the Aussie Guide Dog program, which I believe eventually dropped the program) breed first-generation hybrids ONLY and all puppies are sold on a sterilization contract. There's no possibility of the Labradoodle becoming a true breed because it's not designed to breed true, and in fact if it WERE bred intentionally and for a long enough time to finally reproduce consistently it would be no more than another purebred. It would lose any of the supposed benefits of hybridization, thus putting itself out of any reason to exist.

I also have to say that if I were hybridizing, I wouldn't use poodles and labs. Neither of them is consistently healthy, so we should never expect their offspring to be magically healthy either.
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#19 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by shannon0218
Personally I think this trend is the demise of the dog world.
What do you mean by that? I was watching an interesting show on PBS last week about people who raise show dogs and the show dog world. One of the judges said he thinks the inbreeding of dogs and the perpetuation of breed standards is doing great harm to the genetics of dogs, that they are seeing more and more genetic diseases, etc, because of inbreeding. How is crossing two breeds and selling the puppies to people for way too much money causing the demise of the dog world? There are plenty of mutts out there. This trend will pass.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon0218
The thing is, there is no valid purpose for any of these crosses. If you want a nonshedding larger dog, get a friggin standard poodle--and don't give me the line of "crosses have fewer health problems" that depends on what you cross, so if you cross the 2 dogs with the absolute highest percentage of health problems...get what???
Shannon, I am very surprised you are still trying to make this argument. I recall having a discussion here at MDC with you about this exact topic a few months back. First of all, my labradoodle is WAAAAAAYYYY cuter than any lab or poodle. We get stopped all the time with people saying he is the cutest dog they have ever seen. Second, I hate the way labs smell and the way poodles look. My dh wanted one or the other so this, for us, was a golden compromise. Third, we got ours from a respectable breeder. We did our research well and got the dog we dreamed of getting. He is gentle, kind, sweet, loving, and has all the great qualities of the poodle and the lab. Fourth, the only bad qualities he has, so far, are a really annoying yelping bark (poodle) and believing himself a canine vacuum cleaner (lab). Otherwise, we got exactly what we had hoped in a labradoodle and he was worth literally every penny he cost. Fifth, inbreeding of dogs causes a lot of genetic and health problems for dogs. Mutts are less likely to have genetic health problems. So, logically, crossing two breeds is going to give you fewer genetic health problems than buying an inbred dog. Of course, crossing does not guarantee good health but at least the dog is not going to be predisposed to a genetic health issue.

And, some of these crosses really are adorable. Today, I saw the cutest little dog I've ever seen. (Mine is the cutest large dog. ) His lady got him from a shelter and all she knew was that he was part poodle. He looked like Benji with a kinky perm!

The nitwit, stupid buyer who does no research and buys a dog from a irresponsible, unscrupulous "breeder" (I use the term loosely on purpose) is the problem, not the hybrids, crosses, doodles, or whatever else ensues. People need to do research before they buy a dog. People need to be trained to understand exactly the problems they are causing buying from puppy mills and irresponsible backyard breeders and puppy mills should be outlawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by primjillie
I have some neighbors who paid $1200 for a labradoodle and they were so excited! They told me that she was a new breed of dog and they were going to breed her and make lots of money. The people they bought it from told them the breed was recognized by the AKC and they could get papers.
When the AKC writes them back, informing them that labradoodles are not a recognized breed in the USA and that the AKC actually has a position statement against them, maybe you can get a good deal on their dog. They probably won't want her anymore.
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#20 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 02:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by boongirl
What do you mean by that? I was watching an interesting show on PBS last week about people who raise show dogs and the show dog world. One of the judges said he thinks the inbreeding of dogs and the perpetuation of breed standards is doing great harm to the genetics of dogs, that they are seeing more and more genetic diseases, etc, because of inbreeding. How is crossing two breeds and selling the puppies to people for way too much money causing the demise of the dog world? There are plenty of mutts out there. This trend will pass.
I mean that 90% of the persons breeding these cutsie crosses haven't a bloody clue what they're doing. There are no genetic standards in place and no goal to shoot for, no bar to rise above. We were finally making headway with the puppymill issue and then designer dogs lunged into the market and we lost every last bit of headway we'd fought for. They're not just in conditions of squallor now but in Aunt Mary and Uncle Ed's backyard. Problem is that Mary and Ed know exactly this much about breeding dogs "Well, my dog's cute as hell and so is that one down the street--lets get them together!!" Also when bite stats and health problems in general are being reported, the "pugle" doesn't get named, the pug does, or the beagle (or poodle, or what ever the heck other "le" they crossed the damn thing with) So now you have people who couldnt' read or decipher a pedigree if their life depended on, have no freakin clue what health problems may be back in that line, have no clue about genetics and couldnt' tell you what a dominent or recessive gene is. Frankly it slaps in the face of people who do know what they're doing and spend hours upon hours reading pedigrees, looking at genetics studies and piecing together things like "white boxers of most often deaf--now what do we do to ensure no white ones?" "black sable shepherds have significantly more undercoat, breeding a black dog to a black dog in the german shepherd world will always get you a litter of solid blacks" That sort of thing. These are efforts that are important in the dog world to stop and squash the exact things you are talking about and when Mary and Ed set up Fifi the shih tzu with Frank the poodle, they are doing nothign better than breeding a bunch of unknown genetic rubix cubes. Do Mary and Ed offer a guarentee? What about when Bill and Jane decide they can't keep lil Frank Jr. will Mary and Ed take Frank back? Did all parties involved do all health testing to discover if Fifi and Frank were actually suitable to be bred. Do Mary and Ed know all the genetic problems that could happen to warn their owners about? More importantly....what did Mary and Ed and big Frank's owners do to PROVE their dogs were going to BETTER the dog world. If breeding Fifi & Frank isn't something that's going to better the dog world than they NEVER should have been bred in the first place. A bad breeder is the breeder who breeds just to get puppies. A good breeder takes 2 PROVEN dogs, dogs that other professionals have agreed on are a healthy (mentally and physically) speciman of "Dogdom", she reads pedigrees and she hopes that when those 2 dogs are bred that they will produce pups BETTER than themselves. THAT is the reason to breed dogs, not because "Fluffy is just so cute and the best darned doggers in the world"





Quote:
Originally Posted by boongirl
Shannon, I am very surprised you are still trying to make this argument. I recall having a discussion here at MDC with you about this exact topic a few months back. First of all, my labradoodle is WAAAAAAYYYY cuter than any lab or poodle. We get stopped all the time with people saying he is the cutest dog they have ever seen. Second, I hate the way labs smell and the way poodles look. My dh wanted one or the other so this, for us, was a golden compromise. Third, we got ours from a respectable breeder. We did our research well and got the dog we dreamed of getting. He is gentle, kind, sweet, loving, and has all the great qualities of the poodle and the lab. Fourth, the only bad qualities he has, so far, are a really annoying yelping bark (poodle) and believing himself a canine vacuum cleaner (lab). Otherwise, we got exactly what we had hoped in a labradoodle and he was worth literally every penny he cost. Fifth, inbreeding of dogs causes a lot of genetic and health problems for dogs. Mutts are less likely to have genetic health problems. So, logically, crossing two breeds is going to give you fewer genetic health problems than buying an inbred dog. Of course, crossing does not guarantee good health but at least the dog is not going to be predisposed to a genetic health issue.
I'm still making the argument because I've never changed my stance, I can't believe you're still making the argument for this practice. My dog is CUTE is absolutely NOT an argument for breeding a bunch of mutts and calling them purebred. Good breeders do no "inbreed" Actually most "inbreeding" happens among the circles that think they can make these dogs in to breeds. They don't have time to allow it to happen so they breed a labradoodle or whatever other doodle they can find to another one, well that's great, look at your rather shallow gene pool!! This happened with "Shiloh" Shepherds--they took a couple big ass oversized dogs and bred them together--I wonder why the breed is plaqued with seizure disorders and hip dysplasia? Logically crossing 2 dogs in no way gives you fewer genetic health problems, responsible breeders figuring out what dog was throwing the genetic problem who spend thousands and thousands of dollars while striving to improve the health of their breed gives you a better chance--when you cross 2 dogs randomly you don't have a bloody clue what you are crossing. Did you know that if you double up on Rio Valles Nestle Crunch (as in ANYWHERE in your pedigree) you can almost assure yourself of a whole litter of dysplastic pups. Crunch had great hips, he was quite the dog and an irresponsible breeder has no idea that doubling up on him will give you problems....a good one KNOWS.


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Originally Posted by boongirl
And, some of these crosses really are adorable. Today, I saw the cutest little dog I've ever seen. (Mine is the cutest large dog. ) His lady got him from a shelter and all she knew was that he was part poodle. He looked like Benji with a kinky perm!
Again, adorable is NOT a reason to breed a bunch of dogs, lots of dogs that are killed at the pound were adorable too. There's nothing terribly adorable about putting them in the freezer. All puppies are cute. If you really think the only way to get adorable is to cross a couple breeds, you shouldn't be in the dog business.
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#21 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by thekimballs
However, the -poo and -oodle (and puggle and everything else) are HYBRIDS, not breeds.

Where the wrench comes in is when two hybrids are bred, or if a hybrid is bred back to a parent breed. NOW you've got a problem.

That's why the VERY few responsible Labradoodle breeders (like the Aussie Guide Dog program, which I believe eventually dropped the program) breed first-generation hybrids ONLY and all puppies are sold on a sterilization contract. There's no possibility of the Labradoodle becoming a true breed ....
In my experience as a labradoodle owner and in researching breeders, nearly everything you wrote is wrong. Yes, there are some irresponsible people doing a really bad job of breeding or crossing breeds. This is done all the time, sadly, with many breeds, not just the hybrids. Hybridization is a trend that may or may not result in new breeds being recognized 20 or 30 years from now. Bad animal breeding has been around for as long as humans have been breeding animals. We just need to do a better job regulating this industry. And educating stupid buyers.

1. Labradoodles are thought of as a breed in Australia because they have been doing it long enough (30+ years) to be crossing labradoodles with labradoodles. They are working towards breed recognition and sell breeding stock abroad. Check out the Labradoodle Association of Australia website. They even have a list of labradoodle breeders in the USA who are members of their organization and who started with labradoodle breeding dogs. These dogs are not hybrids anymore. You can tell one when you see it. They are known as Australian labradoodles and are smaller than the hybrids.

2. There are also hybrid labradoodles in the states being bred responsibly. In our research, we found breeders who had started with poodles and labs and went from there. Just like any reputable dog breeder, these breeders will give you accurate information about health, genetics, shedding, and appearance. And, they rotate their breeding dogs and don't breed within families. In the Northwest states, I found it common for breeders to share their breeding dogs, so they are not mixing families. This keeps their dogs genetically healthy. Some of them do sell second+ generation pups. It depends on how long they've been doing this. And, every breeder we looked at sold their pups already fixed.
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Originally Posted by shannon0218
I mean that 90% of the persons breeding these cutsie crosses haven't a bloody clue what they're doing. Frankly it slaps in the face of people who do know what they're doing and spend hours upon hours reading pedigrees, looking at genetics studies and piecing together things like "white boxers of most often deaf--now what do we do to ensure no white ones?" "black sable shepherds have significantly more undercoat, breeding a black dog to a black dog in the german shepherd world will always get you a litter of solid blacks" That sort of thing.

My dog is CUTE is absolutely NOT an argument for breeding a bunch of mutts and calling them purebred. Good breeders do no "inbreed" Actually most "inbreeding" happens among the circles that think they can make these dogs in to breeds.

Again, adorable is NOT a reason to breed a bunch of dogs, lots of dogs that are killed at the pound were adorable too. There's nothing terribly adorable about putting them in the freezer. All puppies are cute. If you really think the only way to get adorable is to cross a couple breeds, you shouldn't be in the dog business.
Why are you so angry about this issue? I thought we were having a friendly discussion?

1. I am not in the dog business, so I don't know where that comment is coming from.

2. And, watching the PBS show last week about dog breeding, they were following a woman around who has been breeding dogs for decades and has been winning awards for decades. She now breeds Papillions. Know how she gets the traits she wants? She breeds them with their own second and third relatives. She breeds grandsons with grandmothers, etc. She has not had any genetic issues, yet, but she has been doing this for decades and she is still messing with genetics. She wins major awards at dogs shows all over the USA with her inbred little ones. So, being a breeder of a purebred dog does not make you smarter than someone breeding hybrids.

3. I am defending the labradoodle and the labradoodle only. When I was researching labradoodles, I did not find anything even remotely like a puppy mill. Dogs are not sold in pet stores here in Washington state (at least not in or around Seattle) so perhaps we have strong laws against this. There may be "breeders" out there doing it for money but, again, IT IS NOT THE BREEDER THAT IS THE PROBLEM BUT THE STUPID, ILL-INFORMED BUYER WHO IS NOT PROPERLY RESEARCHING THEIR DOG BEFORE THEY PURCHASE IT.

4. If someone wants to buy a hybrid dog and give it a cute name and love it and thinks it is the greatest dog in the world, that is their choice. The only say we have in it is to suggest they do not get their dog from someone running a puppy mill or doing it only for money.

5. If I want to have "cute" be a major factor in my choice of dog, I am allowed to do that. I am sorry, but I don't like ugly dogs. I don't care how great a German Shepard is or a Boxer or an English Bulldog - I think they are ugly and I don't want to cuddle up to one of them. Same for hairless cats. I like cute animals and I like animals who are great with kids and fun and love to frolick and are just loveable and loving. For the five months I was looking for dogs, the only dogs I found at shelters that would adopt to a family with a child under the age of 5 were lab/pit bull mixes and the like. They were not cute and they were not going to be brought into my house with a possibility of being aggressive at all. All the purebred rescues would not adopt out to a family with a child under the age of 5. So, don't give me the line that there are plenty of dogs in shelters. There are plenty of dogs but not necessarily good family dogs and the ones that might be good for families are not necessarily available for them.

Shannon, you have to realize that people like to have fun with their pets and that it is ok for them make a choice about what kind of pet they want. There needs to be regulation making it impossible for puppy mills to do business. But, that is not going to stop people from making puppies in their backyards and selling them. The consumer, the person purchasing the dog, needs to be educated about how to do this. Telling them they should not purchase a "hybrid" because hybrids should not exist (for all your reasons) is not going to stop this problem at all. All you are going to do is alienate them. If you want to solve the problem, educate people. If someone wants a hybrid, educate them on making a healthy choice. Don't berate them for getting the dog they want. That is not going to get you anywhere. Your argument turns me off big time. It just makes me want to defend the labradoodle more and more. GREAT DOG!!!!!
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I always thought it was funny how breed specific people were. But now it's not just " I really want a golden for my family" It's I need this specific mix. But usually the people I meet who want a specific breed have no clue what they are talking about. They just heard a certain breed mix would be good for their family through word of mouth and there it is, thats what they must get and any other dog will not work. Then they get it, it doesnt work out cause they bought the poor dog from some unqualified, backyard breeder, and they surrender the dog to the spca and say you know what we should have gotten this mix. lol. We've always just gotten mutts at the animal shelters and somehow never had problems.

Mother of 3, welcomed a new baby girl July 2011

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#24 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 02:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by boongirl
For the five months I was looking for dogs, the only dogs I found at shelters that would adopt to a family with a child under the age of 5 were lab/pit bull mixes and the like. They were not cute and they were not going to be brought into my house with a possibility of being aggressive at all. All the purebred rescues would not adopt out to a family with a child under the age of 5. So, don't give me the line that there are plenty of dogs in shelters. There are plenty of dogs but not necessarily good family dogs and the ones that might be good for families are not necessarily available for them.
Just want to say that I just adopted a rescue dog in the Seattle area, after about a month of intensive searching. My requirements were many (had to be proven gentle with small children, ok with cats, good with other dogs, medium size with short/medium hair, not prone to separation anxiety, not need a yard, and no pits/pit mixes because my apt building won't allow them). It wasn't easy and I did have to go all the way to Longview, but I think we may have found the perfect dog. She is a mutt (shepherd/rott/lab mix?) but I came close to adopting several purebreds (ACD, Dalmation, Doberman, GSD, Boxer) all of whom met all my other requirements but either got snapped up by someone else or had some other issue (like the Dalmation had an old leg injury and her foster mom felt she would have trouble with my stairs, and the Boxer had a hefty transport fee I couldn't afford). Your experience is your experience, I just wouldn't want anyone to read your post and think they can't find the perfect dog through rescue. It was harder than I expected, but really not that hard. Oh, and my son is 2 1/2, a fact which I shared with every rescue in my initial email to them.
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Your experience is your experience, I just wouldn't want anyone to read your post and think they can't find the perfect dog through rescue. It was harder than I expected, but really not that hard. Oh, and my son is 2 1/2, a fact which I shared with every rescue in my initial email to them.
I guess, for the breeds you were looking at, the qualifications are different.

We looked into a bunch of purebreed shelters in WA state. We were looking at poodles, labs, border collies, Australian Shepards, Retrievers, and Samoyeds. We used petfinder. Every time I found a dog that fit one of these breeds, the shelter had a disclaimer that they would not adopt out to anyone with kids under the age of five and they also did home visits, so we could not have hid dd. Recently, I was thinking of adding a Pug to our brood. Now that dd is 3, I thought of rescuing one but the Pug assoc in Seattle will also not adopt out to those with young kids. I can actually understand why they do this. There is a high probability of kids coming first when there is a problem and doggie being given away. But, this policy does make me really sad. When dd is older, we will rescue dogs. I have a pipe dream of being a foster doggy mommy. Just need to work on dh a bit with that one!
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#26 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 11:54 AM
 
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I have a schnauzer/wirehair pointer mix(well..we're almost positive on the wirehair pointer part, all we know for sure is that mom was a schnauzer) from the shelter. There are still plenty of non-designer mutts at the shelters, I don't see the point, besides the labradoodle and goldendoodle, to these designer mutts.

And, with the labradoodle and goldendoodle, I do understand why with those breeds, because they are often guide dogs and breeding the poodle hair esp. into the breeds can help make the dogs available to more people who need them, but are allergic.

Shannon, if you have any pictures of the schnauzer/shepherd mix puppies, share them! I'll track down a picture of my dog after he's been groomed(yes, he got the schnauzer hair, it's so nice having a 60lb dog that doesn't shed), because well..right now he still has his winter coat, and is looking quite shaggy.
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#27 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 01:34 PM
 
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I'm angry because this cutsie, foo foo attitude that a mut is worth something if you can come up with a good name does 2 things--it causes people who don't know squat about dog breeding (or more often even about dogs) to bring more puppies into a world that has no room for them--remember what I said earlier--the only good reason to breed a litter of dogs is if you genuinely believe that you can BETTER the breed with them. One pugle or cock-a-poo isn't better than another because there is no standard to shoot for. I have a problem with people breeding mutts on PURPOSE when we have the number of dogs we do dying in shelters. They don't have a passion for pugles, they don't know all there is to know about pugles, they think puppies are "cute" and they multiply $500 x how ever many pups and think they're going to be rich. In 17 yrs of breeding, we've come out on top of exactly 4 litters--but that doesn't factor in the cost of keeping the dam and sire. We see it as a little help financially to support our passion. It also doesn't factor in the cost of training a dog to compete. It doesn't factor in the fact that even though we may sell a male for $3500, that that particular price tag comes with a performance guarentee. Bedlam is from a breeding that was repeated many times, we've never had a dog from that breeding that wasn't spectacular in performance, health and temperment. Then the final time before we retired her mom we kept back Bedlam. She sucked!! Had we sold her we'd have had to take her back had it been a working home (or at least refunded and let them keep her as their couch potatoe) We had great plans for her--plans that are pretty safe to make with the experience we had with that coupling, it didn't work out though. So now she sits on a couch professionally.
There is a very big difference between "Line Breeding" and "In Breeding" I have no idea who you were watching on the show but if she was doing it right she was line breeding. Line breeding, especially close line breeding is a risky proposition and this is where I really hate people just breeding a couple dogs. The breeding that produced Bedlam and all those spectacular dogs was a fairly close line breeding. We researched the hell out of those lines for 7 mos. We spoke with other breeders mostly in abroad who had combined similar lines. We HARSHLY assessed the 2 dogs. What are their faults, do either of them have the SAME faults. I had to look at my perfect boy and say "his chest is too deep" "he is ever so slightly cow hocked" "he's about 1/2" too short in the croup" "he has so much muscle mass that while it works for him and he's still agile, if we were to double up on that they'd be too muscled" "he's a little short in the neck" "his prey drive is a tad low and his defence drive is a tad high" This is a dog that to the average eye is perfect, hell he won a number of seiger shows so apparently the german judges think so too. This is a dog who attained 4 perfect scores in Schuthund trials--in yet here I was faulting his drives. We had to ensure that when we took him and Java and put them together that we didn't double up on even one of those tiny faults. The first time we did it we kept the entire litter until they were 6 mos. Why?? Cause we could have got perfection (and we did) or we could have had disaster. Being responsible we didn't want anyone getting stuck with our disasters. That one worked, some don't.
Inbreeding involves breeding littermates, brother and sister, etc back to each other without consideration for 2 things first, an honest look at the exact LINE you are doubling up on (remember before when i commented on doubling up on Crunch) and a very well researched investigation into every single dog in that pedigree who is OUTSIDE that line.

I get angry cause that's the sort of thing that people like us and like the Kimballs do for every single breeding. When backyard breeders and breeders of mutts get in the game, they make us all look bad. Its those breeders who cause people to say breeding any dog on purpose is bad, it's those breeders who make it harder and harder for us to even break even on a litter (hahahahahaha) It's those breeders that will sell to just anyone that make people come on here and say "That breeder had a hell of a lot of nerve telling me I had to neuter my own dog"

I'm mad cause the attitude that allows Pugles, Shih Poos, Cock-a-poos, schnoodles etc, takes away from the desire to actually rescue a mut. It suddenly makes the mutt who has a cutsie name worth more than the shepherd lab cross.
I'm mad, because this attitude ultimately makes it that much harder for people like Johanna and I to actually be the change we'd like to see in the dog community. I'm mad because people like Johanna and i do this for a living and know more about it than the general public cares to even think about, but regardless of what we know, the general public believes only the person who is going to profit from what they tell the general public. I'm mad because this is what I do. I'm mad because this is MY passion. I'm mad because you and others would equate what i do that often involves pedigrees scattered around my bed and falling asleep in them while trying to read german and being prepared to take that animal back regardless of how bad it's new owner scres it up, that requires me to answer that phone night or day to talk to a new owner, I'm mad because you seem to equate what we do, with someone breeding crosses. That's why I'm mad. I'm also mad because everytime this subject comes up you strive to convert me and that's just not going to happen. I'm a purist and I believe STRONGLY against the creation of dogs there is no need for. I despise the creation of market driven by nothing but money and the ignorance of the general public. I despise that these "breeders" have been placed in the same class as I have even though they constantly lie and say that any old day now this breed will be recognized, or worse tell them it already is.

That's why I'm mad.
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#28 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 01:36 PM
 
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Sorry, but I'm 100% with Shannon here. As a breeder, I put hundreds and hundreds of hours into every breeding I do BEFORE the dog and bitch ever get together. I know pedigrees inside and out and I'll travel 15 hours to get the girl to the right boy. I show, spending thousands of dollars to prove that my dogs are worthy of a peer review process, and I do countless hours of health research to make every decision as careful and successful as possible. I can quote you studies on just about everything under the sun, and I spend easily 10 hours every week talking with other breeders about their dogs, what's going on in the show world, etc. I take every puppy back for its lifetime, warrantee against genetic diseases, and furthermore I can tell you exactly what genetic problems are in each pedigree for at least five generations back. And I'm a very small-potatoes breeder! Many others are "into" it far deeper than I am.

Here are the conditions under which I would myself EVER consider buying a Labradoodle or Goldendoodle:

1) Both parents AKC champions, or pointed toward their championships, of their respective breeds
2) Both parents OFA or Penn Hip hips, heart, thyroid, elbows, patellas, etc.; the poodle parent is checked for PRA, Addison's, and Cushings, and has no epilepsy in the pedigree for at least 3-4 generations.
3) The breeder has been breeding BOTH breeds as purebreds for long enough to truly understand the pedigrees he or she is getting into.
4) The breeder does not use his own studs more than a minority of the time, but travels to find the best stud for the girl.
5) The breeder is MAKING NO MONEY on these dogs, and can prove it to me ('cause I can prove it to you--we lose money every year, and I don't know a single good breeder who doesn't)
6) The breeder is constantly involved in peer-reviewed activities like conformation showing, obedience, agility, etc.
7) The breeder makes any owner sign a written contract, and insists on taking the dog back if any time in its lifetime it cannot stay with me.

Those seven are the bottom-of-the-barrel qualifications for a reputable breeder. I could put many more on top of that, but those are BASELINE. So far, I have not seen a single Labradoodle, Goldendoodle, whatever -poo, or in fact any hybrid breeder who passes those tests. If you find me one, I'll gladly send every puppy person who ever asks me about oodle puppies to them.

One more note on breeding--ANY breeder who makes blanket statements like "these dogs will be nonshedding" or "the best of both worlds" is ignorant of basic breeding practices. Breeders, no matter HOW responsible, cannot pick and choose which traits will show up in the puppies. When I breed two show-quality Danes, only 2-3 puppies in the litter will be show-quality; the others will have traits that make them non-showable. And I have got an extremely high level of predictability because I'm breeding purebreds. Only about half of all "oodles" will actually be non-shedding (that's straight from their own literature). There's no evidence that they are in any way hypoallergenic (that's a lie in all breeds, since it's dog saliva that makes dander--unless you can make a dog never produce spit, it'll make people allergic). You can't pick the best parts of both temperaments; you're just as likely to get the worst. And if you breed a dog predisposed to hip dysplasia (Labs) and a dog with a high incidence of epilepsy, eye problems, and adrenal problems like Addisons and Cushings (poodles), why on earth would you expect that your puppies are magically going to be healthier? Aren't you introducing the epi and the adrenal problems to the Labs and the dysplasia to the poodles? The idea that mixed-breed dogs are healthier than purebreds is a myth. If you let everybody interbreed and put them out into the wilderness to survive on their own, then after 50 years you would indeed have a healthier dog, cleansed of many of the problems we perpetuate. But breeding Aunt Mary's un-health-tested Golden to your poodle (who may be health tested, but do you know his pedigree back six generations?) and expecting a healthy litter is just plain silly.
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#29 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 02:34 PM
 
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I'm mad cause the attitude that allows Pugles, Shih Poos, Cock-a-poos, schnoodles etc, takes away from the desire to actually rescue a mut. It suddenly makes the mutt who has a cutsie name worth more than the shepherd lab cross.
Word. My dog (the one I'm named after here) turned out to be most likely a purebred groenendael upon investigation, but we got her at the shelter, where they thought she was "just another" big dog mix. Her kennel card said "German shepherd/X???" and she had been there MONTHS, even though she was a healthy 9 mo puppy with no behavior problems. She was, from what the woman at the front desk indicated, only days from being destroyed. The pound is FILLED with "mutts" like my dog. The ironic thing is that the ones least likely to find a home are often the best, most stable dogs--lab/shepherd mixes who are likely to have easy temperaments and long lifespans if cared for properly. We're committed to getting all our animals from shelters. We'll probably never be so lucky as to find another Belgian that way, but nonetheless our next dog will be a scrappy black mutt from the pound as well. They're just as valuable to me as any show dog.
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#30 of 100 Old 05-13-2006, 02:38 PM
 
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Shannon, you have to realize that people like to have fun with their pets and that it is ok for them make a choice about what kind of pet they want. There needs to be regulation making it impossible for puppy mills to do business. But, that is not going to stop people from making puppies in their backyards and selling them. The consumer, the person purchasing the dog, needs to be educated about how to do this. Telling them they should not purchase a "hybrid" because hybrids should not exist (for all your reasons) is not going to stop this problem at all. All you are going to do is alienate them. If you want to solve the problem, educate people. If someone wants a hybrid, educate them on making a healthy choice. Don't berate them for getting the dog they want. That is not going to get you anywhere. Your argument turns me off big time. It just makes me want to defend the labradoodle more and more. GREAT DOG!!!!!
I can educate all I want and I put forth likely over 60 hours a month doing nothing but educate. That doesn't mean everyone is going to listen though, some people will continue to turn a blind eye to every single expert and believe only the person who stands to make a profit from their ignorance. Case in point.
There cannot be regulation in cross bred dogs...cause they're cross bred. There are regulations in purebred dogs, both by a professional body but also by peer review. There should be regulation that says a dog needs to be proven before it can be bred--that can't happen with crosses because there is no standard to hold up to. No job to prove the dog can do. No temperment to say this must be strived for. If you're all for regulation, why in Gods name would you allow someone to profit when they are specifically laughing in the face of the regulation we do have (which in my mind, if it actually was as tough as both you and I seem to want, would eliminate the purposeful production of muts and at very least make it illegal to profit from them. (which is true in Canada, but so very hard to enforce)
The unfortunate part is that the education you have given yourself in this matter ONLY comes from ONE source, it's sort of like deciding Formula is as good as breast milk after hearing from the folks at Nestle, Similac and Enfamil. Your sources are bias. On top of that the fact that you will not even consider arguments against the information you believe, you have completely shut yourself away from any further education on the topic. So you see to me, your argument sounds exactly like a sales pitch and to a person who lives full time in the dog world and does attempt to better it, you sound EXACTLY like the woman who comes to MDC and spouts off crap like "Well formula is just as good, and this way my boobs stay perky" or for you "But labradoodles are bred by responsible breeders and this way I get the exact cuteness factor I desired....who gives a crap if it's good for the dog world in general, the most important thing is that I get what I want."
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