rescue vs breeder - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: Do you rescue or buy
rescue from shelter or rescue group 67 78.82%
buy from a breeder 12 14.12%
other-please explain 6 7.06%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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#61 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 10:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamamillet
So what kind of lesgislation are byb and puppymills under? How are they diffrentiated between breeders and the family that wants their dog to have pups? Are there regulations about who can breed and the quality of the environment? What about regulations about the health of the pet? I do not think that all breeding should stop. I am not in that camp; I understand that certain purebreeds are perform very specific jobs that are very needed. However, as I stated in my original post, its my opinion that if you are not needing something that specific that a rescue dog/pup can fill the need of the family pet. When someone sees that a purebreed whatever can sell for as much as 1500-2000 there are going to be idiots thinking that they can buy one for 200 (that they saw advertised in the paper), breed it with another one for 200 and sell the pups for 400.
The USDA enforces the Animal Welfare Act on "commercial" breeders, which are defined by the number of animals sold each year. The AWA (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/awact.html) regulates care, handling, feeding, housing, transport, etc.

As Shannon has repeatedly said, rescue dogs are RESCUES. They come with bad behaviors, bad health issues, etc. If you are prepared for that, and can solve those problems, and don't need to or want to breed, exhibit, etc. your dog, then the shelter is absolutely the first place you should go. But many families know their situation well enough to realize that they are NOT ready to solve those problems, or that they DO want to be involved in the world of purebred animals. In that case they should go to a good, responsible breeder.
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#62 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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As Shannon has repeatedly said, rescue dogs are RESCUES. They come with bad behaviors, bad health issues, etc. If you are prepared for that, and can solve those problems, and don't need to or want to breed, exhibit, etc. your dog, then the shelter is absolutely the first place you should go. But many families know their situation well enough to realize that they are NOT ready to solve those problems, or that they DO want to be involved in the world of purebred animals. In that case they should go to a good, responsible breeder.
Not all dogs/pups that come from shelters come with bad behaviors and bad health issues.

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#63 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I did not start this thread as an attack on breeders. Honestly. I am sorry that it appears to have turned that way. I am actually pleased with the poll results as it shows approximately 75% of people rescue. Which to me says that most people are finding their companion at shelters, while those that are looking for something specific, for whatever reason are going to breeders.

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#64 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 10:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by shannon0218
Odd though that while you think we're such a big part of the problem that you have no trouble at all picking our brains. Didn't the shelter have someone to answer all those questions for you?? Oh that's right...they didn't.
Shannon is SO RIGHT here. Breeders are the caretakers of the dog world--they spend their entire lives obsessing over the perfection of the conditions, temperament, behavior, treatment, and so on of not just their breed but all breeds.

If breeders stopped doing what they do, who would you ask about dog nutrition? About health issues and what's normal/abnormal for the breed? Who would give you training tips based on generations of experience with that line? Who would give enough of a flying fig to spend 20 hours a week on this board, answering the same questions over and over? It's not your vet (most of them know diddly about anything but the most common breeds and mixes), it's not your shelter worker, and often it's not even a trainer--trainers have so much breed-specific experience because most of them breed as well, so if you take that opportunity away from them their knowledge base will go way down.

I'm seriously asking this question now, and I'm going to make it specific to this board. If Shannon, Sailor, APBTLuv, I, and every other person who is involved in breeding or has bought from a show/working breeder left (or had our knowledge base erased), who would you plan to get information from?
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#65 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 10:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamamillet
Wow a bit harsh and defensive dont ya think? I never said that breeders were "such a big part of the problem". Never. There are other places I can ask my questions but had always felt comfortbale asking here.
Yes, you know what, I am defensive and I *totally* admit it. You wanna know why?? Because I work my ass off, putting in countless volunteer hours helping to be part of the solution in the pet overpopulation problem. I volunteer my time as a trainer, I pay for spays and neuters, I take back any pup that can't stay with an owner and do things like I come here and volunteer more of my time to help people who have gone out and taken in a rescue dog, I let them phone me at various hours, I spend a good hour or 2 on the phone with them, I give them my private email address and I NEVER ask to be paid for that. My guess is that I've "helped" a good many dogs through what I do than what one person adopting one dog every 10 yrs can do. But then, I come here and I see YOU, who I have answered questions for, who I supported in your effort to adopt a dog from a shelter and I see you bash me (and others who also provided you with advise and support) and YES, damn YES a freakin thousand times YES, when you make statements like you made--accusing me and Joanna of being a part of the problem (the main part as far as you know) and not even bothering to acknowledge what we do to solve the problem, yeah, I'm damn frigging mad, I'm insulted, I wanna scream at my computer because yes, the words you type just make it obvious how little you actually KNOW about the real problem--but you didn't come to ask questions, you didn't hear the opinions and then ask Joanna and I why we do what we do, you didn't ask us for more information, NO, you told us that and I quote: "Originally Posted by mamamillet
They do. Anyone who breeds while there are more pets than available homes contributes to pet overpoopulation. period." Like it's so simple for you, like your conscious is forever clear because you adopted that ONE puppy.
You asked for opinions, but when they didn't match yours, you choose to shit on the very people who probably helped you most through your recent journey with Mabel.

I'd like to think I'm a bigger person, but everyday I have a hard time being that person. I'd like to think that even though you insulted me I'd still want to help if you run into a training problem with your dog, but usually, it's the bullshit like this, the holier than though attitude of someone who's NEVER been in the trenches of this stuff that puts me off and makes me less willing to help the next guy who needs it.

So yes, I'm defensive, and more than a little sensitive. I don't like it when people value my opinion and ask for it only to discover later that think I'm a major part of the problem they think they're solving.
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#66 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 10:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thekimballs
I'm seriously asking this question now, and I'm going to make it specific to this board. If Shannon, Sailor, APBTLuv, I, and every other person who is involved in breeding or has bought from a show/working breeder left (or had our knowledge base erased), who would you plan to get information from?
Wow. Good point!
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#67 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 11:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by shannon0218
There is no such thing as a German Sheppard. If you're going to make an example of it, at least take a stab at spelling it right.
Shannon, I realize that you feel very passionately about this subject. I do appreciate what you do. I don't have a problem with breeding working dogs that are actually being used responsibly. What you do is not what is causing overpopulation. It's the 95% of other breeders.

That being said, this is the second thread in a week that I've seen you jump all over posters disagreeing with you. You can't really expect everyone to agree all the time. Please try not to take it so personally and get so upset. I've never been rude to you. This is supposed to be a place we come to for companionship and just to chit chat.
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#68 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 11:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thekimballs

So we do all this stuff, and you know who gets hurt every time? Good breeders. And you know who put those puppies and adult dogs into the shelters? OWNERS. Sometimes they're breeders who didn't realize that puppies don't automatically sell easily, but most of the time 100% of the problem is OWNERS.
So we do all this stuff, an you know who gets hurt every time?
The dog.

And you know who put those puppies and adult dogs into the shelters?
Owners who bought their dogs from breeders

Sometimes they're breeders who didn't realize that puppies don't automatically sell easily, but most of the time 100% the problem is
the breeder who didn't bother to try and find out what it takes to keep or raise the dogs and pawned them off as quickly as possibly for a profit.

Maggie
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#69 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 11:29 PM
 
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Regarding children dying in orphanages.
http://www.petitiononline.com/IACA/petition.html
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#70 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 11:31 PM
 
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Maggie, the people you are speaking about are NOT breeders.
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#71 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 11:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thekimballs
As Shannon has repeatedly said, rescue dogs are RESCUES. They come with bad behaviors, bad health issues, etc.
That is a gross generalization, both inaccurate and unfair. One might say it is as unfair and inaccurate as saying all breeders contribute to the pet overpopulation problem. One need not degrade or misrepresent facts to secure her own point. :
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#72 of 89 Old 08-06-2006, 11:50 PM
 
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I think it is causing a lot of confusion in this thread that there are breeders who are 100% responsible and put out a very small amount of dogs per year who they remain responsible for the rest of the dog's life. We are throwing accusations at both rescues and responsible breeders when we all know that the ones causing ALL of the pet overpopulation problems are backyard breeders (who may claim to be responsible breeders) and puppymills. THEY are who we need to be angry at. Not eachother.

Like I mentioned before though, there are plenty of puppies in rescue who haven't had a chance yet to develop any issues.
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#73 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Again I want to apologize for the turn this thread ihas taken. WHile I do feel that any pet added to the planet contributes to pet overpoulation I neglected to add that there is a difference between the overall overpopulation of animals and the overpopulation of homeless pets. Just as I feel I contributed to the planets overpopulation of people by having a child I know I did so responsibly--through natural living etc.-- And responsible breeders do just that--breed responsibly. I tried to state that I am not aginst breeders (meaning responsible ones) but did not see how my statements were still offensive. I apologize to those of you that were offended by my statement and back out of the discussion...

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#74 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 01:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by m9m9m9
So we do all this stuff, an you know who gets hurt every time?
The dog.

And you know who put those puppies and adult dogs into the shelters?
Owners who bought their dogs from breeders

Sometimes they're breeders who didn't realize that puppies don't automatically sell easily, but most of the time 100% the problem is
the breeder who didn't bother to try and find out what it takes to keep or raise the dogs and pawned them off as quickly as possibly for a profit.

Maggie
Hm. Ive worked/volunteered in several shelters and about 90% of the relinquished animals were owner relinquished family pets or unwanted litters. They were never brought in by breeders who couldnt sell them. Theres always some dumbf*** out there willing to pay for a purebred X breed regardless of who bred it. And lets not even go into all the mixes that are being passed off as "designer" breeds.... It was my experience that people who bought from RESPONSIBLE breeders try the hardest to right any problems they ahve withthe dog, and if they cant, the dog goes back to the breeder. RESPONSIBLE breeders demand that this takes place. THose who buy from a backyard breeder might relinquish to a pound, since they dont have that safety net. Backyard breeders are pretty much the scum of this society, profiting off of others blind wants and not caring about hte well being of living things that they produce or caring what happens to them. This goes for dogs, cats, horses, mules, fish (I seperate my livebearers by sex, thank you very much, and I wish others would do the same), anything that lives and breaths. Its those ignorant BYB that you/we should be rallying against, not the small number of intellegent, reputable, responsible breeders we have amongst us. I for one feel so blessed to have the knowledge of Joanna and Shannon here, they have answered many questions for me that I would have had a hard time with otherwise, and with them I know that they have done the research, put in the time and energy and can be totally trusted in their knowledge of dogs as a species as well as of their breeds of choice. I dont think that I personally would ever have the need to get an animal from a breeder, and I personally believe that few people do legitimatly have that need, but if I were to have that desire, Id search long and hard for a good breeder that lived up to my (new since posting on this forum) expectations of what a good breeder is. If you want to debate IRRESPONSIBLE backyard breeding, start another thread. Im sure all of us would like to chime in on that.
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#75 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 01:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by EdlynsMom
I for one feel so blessed to have the knowledge of Joanna and Shannon here, they have answered many questions for me that I would have had a hard time with otherwise, and with them I know that they have done the research, put in the time and energy and can be totally trusted in their knowledge of dogs as a species as well as of their breeds of choice.
Absolutely

Edlynsmom, your whole post is what I was trying to say but...failed miserably. Thank you.

It's just so unfair to group them w/BYB's.
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#76 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 01:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamamillet
I never said anywhere that all breeding needs to stop. In fact I clarified that in the post right before yours.
We posted at the same time, so I didn't see yours until after I had sent mine. Sorry about that.

Also, I just wanted to add something about the posts regarding rescues ... while rescues CAN come with problems/issues, not ALL of them do. Some of them have been surrendered by their owner willingly for various reasons, i.e. it wasn't the right dog for the family, moving, financial problems, etc. And they become great, healthy companions. Sometimes an owner gets a dog, thinking this is "the one" for him and it turns out he/she can't handle it. Was it irresponsible to get the dog in the first place without enough research? Absolutely. But, the dog won't necessarily have long term effects from it. Even a lot of the dogs who have been neglected become truly wonderfuly, amazing pets (with the right family and home). They may not be perfect for SAR or Schutzhund (hence why I went with a breeder) but they pose no problems as family pets.

First special delivery - April 2010 :
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#77 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 09:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shannon0218
Maggie, the people you are speaking about are NOT breeders.
Yes, that's true. I should have put breeder in quotes.

I do not think an actual breeder who has the intention to breed dogs and does so purposefully with careful consideration and understanding of the undertaking would do something like that. I would fully expect they would keep the puppies themselves if no home was available.
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#78 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 10:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by EdlynsMom
It was my experience that people who bought from RESPONSIBLE breeders try the hardest to right any problems they ahve withthe dog, and if they cant, the dog goes back to the breeder. RESPONSIBLE breeders demand that this takes place. THose who buy from a backyard breeder might relinquish to a pound, since they dont have that safety net.
I just want to point something out here because I hear this a lot ~ "Responsible breeders will always take back their dogs."

I don't actually doubt that this is true and a good breeder would do this.

BUT

I do doubt that many owners would follow through with this. Maybe they are too embarassed to call the breeder, maybe they have moved away, maybe they think it is more hassle than taking it to the shelter.

In reality, there is no way for a breeder to know what happens to the dog once it leaves their home unless they are checking on the dog yearly, visiting in person and maybe there are some breeders who do do that. Calling on the phone or sending letters wouldn't be enough becasue the owner could easily lie or not return calls or letters.

Thus, breeders, even responsible ones, can contribute to the overpopulation problem.


Maggie
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#79 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 10:24 AM
 
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That's actually not true, I can tell you what we do to circumvent this problem (and yes, it does happen, but not as often as you might think)
We microchip all pups. In the microchip info we have our contact info, anyone calling in regarding the chip will then be told that this animal MUST be returned to the breeder should it ever end up in a pound/shelter/rescue. All rescues/pounds/shelters scan pets (if for no other reason than that they tend to put a new chip in) so at least for us, no there is no way our dogs would end up in a shelter (at least not for longer than the 24 hours it may take to arrange shipping back to us.
In roughly 8 yrs of doing things this way, we've had *one* call from a shelter and it was a case like you described, the owners had moved far away from us, blah, blah, blah. They should however have read their contract better because it says in there that should they break the contract and take their dog to a shelter taht they would be responsible for all shipping costs back to us. The shelter had the dog on a plane the next morning and while it took us 8 mos, the "owner" did have to pay us for that--but we'd have done it regardless of whether we could get reembursed.
I'm not sure what Joanna does--but it is easier in danes I'm guessing in that it's not a such a common breed, but that's what we do and I know a lot of other responsible breeders who do the same.
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#80 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 10:34 AM
 
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We do the chipping thing as well--I don't chip them all myself (though I may with my next litter), but I ask that owners do it at the first vet visit and that my cell phone goes as the second or third contact point. And of course we chip or tatoo all the resident dogs.

And yes, I have a major advantage in rarity--if an obviously well-bred blue or black Dane showed up at a shelter, it would most likely be quickly picked up by purebred rescue and the word would go out. I don't have that many dogs out there (about 30 total, and over 20 owners in pretty constant contact--I have a few who don't contact me regularly, but not many), and if a dog of the right gender and color in the right area showed up on the lists I'd be on top of it pretty quickly.

We have the same clauses in our contract--dog must be returned to us, at owner's expense, and violation is a major $$ amount.
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#81 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 11:10 AM
 
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Joanna, the chips are easy to do yourself, the advantage if you do them is that you technically own the chip so the buyer cannot remove you from the contact list without your permission.
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#82 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 11:58 AM
 
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I voted other because I think rescues and shelters are a great choice- but only for the right people/family. Most people don't have the knowledge or the time or $ to work with any potential issues a shelter/rescue dog may have. I know not all dogs from those sources have issues but many do and when picking one of these animals its very potluck. You probably don't know much history or breeding info about the dog- many times you aren't completely sure what breed/s of dog your getting. If I'm getting a dog for a family animal I want to know about the temperaments of their parents, littermates, etc because that is one of the best predictors of their temperate. Is that 100% reliable every time? No but it way better than having no background and info to go on at all.

That being said I've own "mutts" before but they have always been acquired from litters that were accidental. However I got them from the owners and was able to see the "background" these pups came from.

On a slightly OT issue I am a horse breeder and in any animal related business there are always going to be breeders who favor quantity over quality. Don't vilify responsible breeders who take their job very seriously. In the horse world we have our own "puppymills" the Thoroghbred racing industry- but even then there are fabulous TB breeders who take responsiblity for the animals they breed even long after they have left their farms. The industry itself is tried to help the issue of over breeding and expendable horses by starting and helping TB adoption programs.

In Europe there are many countries where horse breeding is controled at different levels by the goverment. Does this lessen the amount of horses bred? Nope. People just breed more of the expensive horses that the common folk can't afford.
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#83 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by shannon0218
Joanna, the chips are easy to do yourself, the advantage if you do them is that you technically own the chip so the buyer cannot remove you from the contact list without your permission.
What brand do you use? One of the things that's always turned me off from doing it myself is the Avid/Home Again/foreign-made chips/scanners so that no one scanner can read all chips and no one chip can be read by all scanners.

I have to admit that it's often $$ as well; it would cost me about $22 per puppy to do them myself and register them, so a couple hundred for a litter--by the time they're eight weeks old, it's been nothing but outgo for a year and I have to cough up $250-300 for the vet checks as well. Even pennies hurt at that point.
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#84 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 12:14 PM
 
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Yeah, see in Canada we have universal scanners now, they're more expensive but the company that developed them donated one unit to each shelter/animal control.
We also have a canada wide database. It is run for free by Pet Care insurance, no charges to the owners, no obligations. They've done a REALLY good job with it too. I was skeptical at first but they have exceeded my expectations big time!
Most here use the pet safe chip (thats what we use) The major outlay for us was the cost of buying the equipment, we buy our chips for $6.00 a piece. Of course with the chip we don't bother to tatoo.
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#85 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 03:59 PM
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Yeah, see in Canada we have universal scanners now, they're more expensive but the company that developed them donated one unit to each shelter/animal control.
We also have a canada wide database. It is run for free by Pet Care insurance, no charges to the owners, no obligations. They've done a REALLY good job with it too. I was skeptical at first but they have exceeded my expectations big time!
Most here use the pet safe chip (thats what we use) The major outlay for us was the cost of buying the equipment, we buy our chips for $6.00 a piece. Of course with the chip we don't bother to tatoo.
My mom did both with her dogs. chipped and tatooed, because she sold to Americans and Canadians both. The Tatoo was so the American breeders could recognize her stock, without having to look for the right chip reader, and Chips in case the dogs wound up in the pound or lost or whathave you. It's ALOT easyer than tossing a Pei on it's back that's for sure..

Hey Shannon, You might know some of my mom's stock.
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#86 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 04:04 PM
 
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Where did she breed Chelsae??
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Where did she breed Chelsae??
New Brunswick/NovaScotia/Hamilton.

Some of her stock is in Woodstock ON right now, as foundation for the Pei kennel out that way. Luv N Folds Kennels. Her name is pretty much mud now thanks to my sister (sister never sent out registration papers), hence why she got out of breeding. Gerry is carrying on the legacy thru Tu-Chin and Ondulee...and their offspring. Just whelped a litter this spring acctually and they have tons of Reds and red dilutes...

Gerry always includes the kennel name "Luv N Folds" in his dogs so if you've been to shows over the past few years and noticed Sharpei you've prolly seen some of my mom's dogs (at least their descendants)
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I'm trying to remember the name of the woman who bred shar peis that used to come to our school. Her daughter's name is Nicole and I'd say she'd be about 30ish now, maybe closer to 35 but this woman recently passed away from I think lung cancer. Nicole is actually working with Sheena now doing group classes.

Oh, I remember his name is Herb, oh, just remembered it, Herb and Colleen, not sure on the last name though, they had some nice shar peis.
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#89 of 89 Old 08-07-2006, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon0218
I'm trying to remember the name of the woman who bred shar peis that used to come to our school. Her daughter's name is Nicole and I'd say she'd be about 30ish now, maybe closer to 35 but this woman recently passed away from I think lung cancer. Nicole is actually working with Sheena now doing group classes.

Oh, I remember his name is Herb, oh, just remembered it, Herb and Colleen, not sure on the last name though, they had some nice shar peis.
Yeah I heard of them They had Stimpy at the pet expo down at the Arrow center last summer. Gawd Stimpy was a big mush! Let my DD manhandle his squishy face and everything.

My mom started her breeding career out this way (BC) then kept it going through each move. Gerry Bragg is the one who owns her dogs out in Woodstock..and is continuing her line despite her name being not that good anymore


My DD told my DH yesterday that "I want a Big Black Wrinkly dog and his name is going to be Zack!" *sigh* Guess I gotta hit up the lines again eh? DH likes *little* dogs, I like Med-Lg sized dogs...Might see if I can hit Joan Shirliker up for one of her mini-peis as a compromise. AFTER the baby is born and grown up a little that is. It's be dumb of me to get a dog at this point in the game..no fenced yard...baby on the way...Oy...Heck I wouldn't even start a fish tank right now! our poor budgie is getting ignored too.
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