Vegetarian with a dog- best dog food? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 01:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thekimballs View Post
As much as I hate to resurrect the resentment in this thread, no. Dogs are carnivores. Omnivores have obvious differences in teeth, digestive system, endocrine system, and behavior. Dogs exhibit none of these. They are carnivores.

I'll let my vet know that.
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#62 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 01:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Danemom View Post
Out of curiosity, where are the few posters who have said it coming up with facts that dogs are omnivores? I can't find anything that says they are omnivores but have found plenty stating they are carnivores..... Just wondering.....
I did a google search and the very first site said this:
Canines are in the order Carnivora, but I think their feeding behaviors are best described as omnivorous. The term carnivore applies to their taxonomic classification, not their feeding behavior. Taxonomically, dogs are members of the order Carnivora, a very diverse group, that includes 12 families of more than 260 species, some of which are herbivorous mammals (the panda). There are three types of feeding behavior (omnivorous, herbivorous and carnivorous) all of which can be found among different members of the order Carnivora." (From an email response to the question of dogs being looked upon as carnivorous or omnivorous in the newsletter of the American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition.)

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#63 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 02:26 PM
 
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With the rude tone that you ave used on this thread, it's understandable why someone would be peeved after reading a post of yours directed at them. I imagine she was peeved by your tone. I certainly am.

Don't accuse us of being enthralled by our own opinions simply because we deny that YOURS is the correct one. They tattle to the moderators not when people disagree but when people are rude.

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Originally Posted by Manena
I don't know what planet you live on, but most dogs, eat meat.
Sarcasm isn't allowed here.

I live on planet Earth, obviously. My dogs don't eat meat. They eat dry dog food made from various ingredients, including but not not limited to meat byproducts.

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Originally Posted by Manena
Tell me, what do the vast majority of cats eat? What should they eat? Cucumbers? Bean sprouts? Tofu smoothies?
Again with the sarcasm, which isn't welcomed at MDC. That's the problem; your sarcasm and rudeness, not your opinions.

My cats, like most domestic cats, eat dry cat food. Some eat wet cat food. They are usually made from, again, from various ingredients, including but not limited to meat by products.

There are vegetarian forms available of dogfood and catfood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manena
Cite.
http://www.veggiepets.com/acatalog/v..._cat_food.html
http://www.epetpals.com/vegetarian_dog_food.htm

Dry dog and cat food may include meat products--but it's not meat anymore than instant spuds are potatoes.

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#64 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
I live on planet Earth, obviously. My dogs don't eat meat. They eat dry dog food made from various ingredients, including but not not limited to meat byproducts.
[snip]

My cats, like most domestic cats, eat dry cat food. Some eat wet cat food. They are usually made from, again, from various ingredients, including but not limited to meat by products.
[snip]

Dry dog and cat food may include meat products--but it's not meat anymore than instant spuds are potatoes.

HUH? :
OK, there are clearly nutritionally differences between eating instant spuds and fresh potatoes. The processing does a lot (negative) and there are normally some other artificial ingredients added. But I still can't fathom considering them to NOT be potatoes. They are a inferior form of potatoes, but still potatoes.

Yes, most kibble contains a very high percentage of grains. And often times the meat sources are sketchy and contain ingredients other than muscle meat. However, in a super-premium brand you most likely are going to have real muscle meat in there. Dehydrating it, cooking it, extruding it, etc. does indeed damage the nutritional content, but it doesn't make it not meat. And really, even with the cheapest kibble, chances are you've got some meat in there. I just don't get how you can call it "not meat." This seems like we're getting into "depends on what the definition of the word 'is' is" territory.

But really, that feels like a semantics issue. So, I don't understand what your overall point is- that in general kibble is made of poor ingredients? I can't see how that changes the physiological needs of dogs or cats. It just means that (like humans) many are able to survive on food that is not the biological ideal. That doesn't change what the "best" food for dogs is.


In this forum most of the posters who have argued that a vegetarian diet is not appropriate/ideal for cats and/or dogs are of the opinion that a grain based kibble which contains only meat by-products is also very poor choice. And a high percentage of them (I guess 'us' to include myself) DO feed their own dogs actual meat and are indeed advocating that sort of diet. They are not saying "don't feed vegetarian kibble, feed cheap meat-by-product containing kibble instead" they are saying "feed meat" or at the least feed a prepared food that contains a very high percentage of meat.
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#65 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 03:20 PM
 
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Meat by products aren't the same as actual meat, IMO. Kibble is mostly grains and even contains some vegetables. I'm sure it is healthier for them to have regular meat, but I personally don't think raw meat is the best diet for my dogs. They are thriving on a diet of kibble and occasional scraps of meat. Spuds are an inferior form of potatoes, and kibble is a very inferior form of meat.

I personally don't consider spuds to be anywhere near real potatoes after all that processing, and that's how I feel about kibble vs meat. If you don't agree with me, that's fine; you're entitled. I don't think there is any right or wrong way. We are humans, not Mother Nature, so for any of us to think we are 100% right or wrong about what a specific animal in general should eat is, I think, a bit presumptuous and maybe even arrogant.

I'm not saying that anyone should feed cheap meat-by-product kibble or that it's best. I am, however, going to point out that kibble-fed dogs can be just as healthy; mine certainly are. I feed the higher end brands because my dogs have food allergies. I agree that dogs should eat meat, but with so many dogs being fed kibble, I think a diet of vegetarian kibble--as long as it is high in the nutritional content we as a species think dogs need--isn't going to kill a dog or make them so deprived that their quality of life suffers.

I'll agree that a diet of meat is probably best--but not everyone can afford that, and not every dog is going to thrive on a diet of meat. I certainly can't afford to feed my dogs meat. My own family eats very little meat because of how expensive it is. I also think dogs need vegetables, such as ones they might encounter in the wild--were they wild. Unfortunately my dog has very severe allergies and has to be fed prescription dog food.

If dogs are carnivores, not omnivores, then I have some weird canines. Mine love to raid the refridgerator for grapes, apples, even cheese. My dogs will eat damn near anything, without my even offering it to them. Every dog I've ever owned has been like that, and the dogs of people I know tend to go for the meat first when they raid the garbage--but help themselves to the grains, fruits, and vegetables therein as well. My dogs are in great health. I have one that is a little overweight because she's rather lazy, who also has food allergies and must eat hypoallergenic dog food. She also has the cleanest teeth my vet has ever seen in a dog her age. I think their kibble and scrap diet is doing them fine.

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#66 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 04:12 PM
 
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moonfirefaery - Please don't let your babies have grapes! They are toxic to dogs as are raisins, onions and chocolate off the top of my head. Well, not chocolate off the top of MY head but you know what I meant. Not saying you feed them constantly but you said they get into them and just wanted to be sure you knew that!!
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#67 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 04:14 PM
 
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I'm really not sure of the logic here. Kibble is crap, byproducts, but they can survive on it, so we should feed it to dogs?

Only the very cheapest of kibbles (think Blue Seal) will have only byproducts or meat and bone meal. All of the others DO contain meat.

If you're feeding a prescription diet, you can feed raw cheaper. You can feed raw cheaper than just about everything but the bottom of the barrel kibble. I get chicken backs for $.17/lb and offal for $5 for a 5-gallon bucket. Add a couple of $1 chicken hearts-and-gizzards packages to my weekly shopping and I'm done.
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#68 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 04:30 PM
 
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Danemom-Yeah, I know. The fridge has a latch on it now to keep them out!

thekimballs--where did I say that? I think I specifically said that kibble isn't meat and that I don't recommend it, but that a raw meat diet isn't best for every dog. No, I can't feed my dog raw cheaper; I think I know my own expenses, thank you. No, I can't feed my dog raw at all, because they have allergies. I'm happy for you, but I can't get chicken backs for $0.17lb--and I don't think that a steady diet of hearts and gizzards is best for my animals, sorry. I'm not going to debate what I'm feeding my dogs, because it's between me and my vet.

I'm just stating that plenty of dogs eat kibble and that kibble is not the same thing as meat, etc. I also don't think that being absolutely 100% healthy is just surviving, so your "well, it's crap but they can survive on it so let's feed it to them" isn't really what I'm saying, because I don't think dogs just SURVIVE on kibble. Dogs can be quite healthy on it, and mine certainly are. My vet is always impressed with their health, except when my dog comes in with an ear infection from eating--yeah, guess what--raw meat or some other weird thing she's not technically supposed to eat. If you want to argue that even the higher brands DO contain meat that's fine, but I still don't agree that dry dog food is the equivelent of actual meat. Put them side by side and they look and taste QUITE different.

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#69 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 04:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Danemom View Post
moonfirefaery - Please don't let your babies have grapes! They are toxic to dogs as are raisins, onions and chocolate off the top of my head. Well, not chocolate off the top of MY head but you know what I meant. Not saying you feed them constantly but you said they get into them and just wanted to be sure you knew that!!

unless your dog is allergic to these items they do have to eat A LOT per dog pound of those items to hurt 'em.!
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#70 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 05:35 PM
 
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they don't have to eat alot of grapes and raisins to get very sick, they are bad for dogs I read a study about it a few years ago in CO I think, can't remember right now. They just can't determine how much an individual dog can eat safely of raisins and grapes.
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#71 of 102 Old 03-27-2007, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy View Post
I did a google search and the very first site said this:
Canines are in the order Carnivora, but I think their feeding behaviors are best described as omnivorous. The term carnivore applies to their taxonomic classification, not their feeding behavior. Taxonomically, dogs are members of the order Carnivora, a very diverse group, that includes 12 families of more than 260 species, some of which are herbivorous mammals (the panda). There are three types of feeding behavior (omnivorous, herbivorous and carnivorous) all of which can be found among different members of the order Carnivora." (From an email response to the question of dogs being looked upon as carnivorous or omnivorous in the newsletter of the American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition.)
Hey, I tried to google search "dogs omnivores" and found the same site you did. (I assume anyway, they had the same quote word for word).

What you left out was the 2nd paragraph, which reads:

Quote:
They can survive on a diet of either plant or animal origin if it is balanced and diverse. But to thrive and not merely survive, dogs should have a source of animal protein - MEAT - in their diets. There is a huge difference between survive and thrive! Nature made the rules of biochemistry and nutrition and we mortals have no power (and no business, for that matter) to try to bend those rules. For that reason there are truly no adequate vegetarian diets for cats. For that reason dogs thrive on diets based on meat.
Nice selective quoting there!
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#72 of 102 Old 03-28-2007, 02:51 AM
 
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If a person's dog is fed a veg diet and is thriving (as people here have said they are), then why would anyone object?

I think there can be reasonable disagreement between well-meaning and well-read people about whether dogs are at this point in their evolution more properly thought of as carnivorous or omnivorous.

I also think that the "dogs need meat" posts I have seen here have not talked about what is a very serious ethical dilemma for many veg animal guardians: that feeding their animals meat requires supports cruelty towards other animals.

There are a lot of ethical considerations at work in this situation, at least for some people.
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#73 of 102 Old 03-28-2007, 02:08 PM
 
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Kaydee,

I don't think anyone is disputing anyone's choices, however the discussion is about feeding a carnivore an inappropriate diet. The Albert Schweitzer quote you use in your signature line is very fitting for this discussion.

I am certain that dogs can survive on an inappropriate diet. I am certain that people can look at their dogs and see health when there are glaring indicators of illness. I am certain that people believe that they are doing the right thing(s). I am certain of all of this because I fed my first dog "quality" kibble and assumed that her symptoms were normal for a healthy dog.

What I now know about a carnivore diet and signs of health and illness. A dog fed an appropriate diet does not suffer from the chronic conditions that our society has accepted as normal for dogs.

Personally I think it is cruel to ignore the fact that feeding a dog inappropriatly causes suffering. I learned in my quest that dogs aren't suppose to smell, their teeth are not suppose to be plaque filled nor do they need to be brushed, they do not need to be poisoned with "preventatives", they are not suppose to eat and eat and never feel full, they are not suppose to be walking sausages (note the new weight loss vaccine for dogs - pathetic), they are not suppose to have their anal glands manually expressed, they are not suppose to have chronic ear infections, they are not suppose to have skin issues, they are not suppose to have "doggie breath", they are not suppose to be destructive, they are not suppose to be hyper, they are not suppose to suffer from diabetes, cancer, EPI, etc..., dogs are not suppose to dying at 8, 9, 10 years old from "natural" causes.

Dogs fed an appropriate diet are healthy - they do not need preventatives or vaccines as their bodies are perfectly capable of handling common disease. They smell neutral if not lovely (my own dog has not had a bath for 15 months and she nor my house smell like dog). They have healthy teeth which means not only no "doggie breath" but they are healthy as they disease does not have a gateway straight into their bodies through an unhealthy mouth. They express their own anal glands. Their ears stay clean on their own. Their skin is perfectly healthy. They eat until they are satisfied and can almost all naturally control their own weight if given a chance. They work out their chewing desires with their complicated meals. They are naturally calm and appropriately excited. Dogs should be living easily to 12-17 years depending on the breed.

The list is a lot longer but I think the point is made. I don't think anyone wants to cause suffering of course. What confuses me is the idea of not making one animal suffer which thereby causes another animal to suffer in the name of not supporting animal cruelty - huh?! If a dog is not given the opportunity to eat a species approiate diet, that is in fact animal cruelty. If a person chooses not to eat meat that is an admirable choice for them to make - for themselves. Dogs and cats kept in captivity do not have a choice - it is not okay to cause suffering just because you don't want to see it.

Disclaimer: Using "you" above is metaphorical and NOT directed at any specific person but the greater "you" commonly used in speech!
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#74 of 102 Old 03-28-2007, 03:38 PM
 
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The problem is that it's not up to us to decide what is appropriate for every dog because every dog is different. If you want to say that most dogs will do better on a raw meat diet, that's fine. However, the decision about what to feed a dog should be based on the family, their consultation with their veteranarians, and the health and needs of the dog. My dog gets very bad ear infections if she strays from her hypoallergenic diet, and that includes eating raw meat. She can have the occasional scrap, but that's it. My other dog gets the runs when he eats a lot of raw meat. Considering I live in a small carpeted townhome without a yard, I can't have a dog with the runs all the time. My house would smell and be filthy, and I can't just keep the poor dog in the bathroom with his own diarrhea all the time. I can't afford to feed ONE dog one food and the other dog another, because as I said, I can't get meat as inexpensively as some of you. If a dog is healthy on the diet its eating, then no one but a vet has the right to tell the owner that the diet is inappropriate. Judging from my dogs health and my veteranarian's view, my dogs are very healthy and are eating very appropriate foods for them. I'd say that if anyone on this forum is having health problems with their dog...they would probably be asking for help solving those problems. Why fix what ain't broke? That a dog isn't eating what someone else thinks is appropriate doesn't mean that the dog is suffering. Come meet my dogs. You tell me if they are suffering. My vet doesn't think so. I trust him.

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#75 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 12:49 AM
 
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Actually alot of people start a raw diet because of all the allergies caused by comercial foods. There is nothing purer and more hypo allergenic than an a raw diet. My own dogs skin allergies did a 180 a week after doing 100% raw. Dogs are almost always allergic to things that are not a part of thier natural diet like grains. Also most dogs thatare allergic to the cooked and processed version of a protien do not have allergies with the same protien raw. This goes back to the point christyb made that me have come to accept lots of things as just normal or average dog health when they should be seen as signs of ill health.
I know you said your dogs got sick when they had raw meat. That could be because sometimes dogs systems get so damaged that it takes a few days to adjust to real food. Or if this was scavanged food it was most likely eaten along with other foods from the trash can that were bad for him or the meat had spices and extra salt on it. Also when people like the kimballs quote prices like $.17/lb for chicken they aren't talking about getting it at the grocery store, but getting it directly from the processors. It takes a little effort to get great deals, but you never know if they are available until you look for them. I fed raw for about a $1 a day just from the regular grocery store for the first 6 months. Later I joined a co-op I found on yahoo groups and now I can get conventional meats at wholesale prices and natual and wild meats at affordable prices. My family has a very low income, but in my opinion a few extra dollars a month is incomparable to the dramatic difference in health and longevity.
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#76 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 02:02 AM
 
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I'm aware that some start raw diets because of allergies caused by commercial foods. My dog only has an allergic reaction, however, when she eats large portions of food other than her hypoallergenic kibble, including raw meat. Therefore, a raw diet would not work for her, and so obviously, a raw diet isn't right for every dog. For the record, she doesn't have allergic reactions when she eats only her hypoallergenic kibble and small amounts of other foods; only when she eats large amounts of other foods. I really doubt her ears tripling in size have anything to do with her adjusting to raw meat. She was having them back when she was eating regular kibble, raw meat, etc. When I switched her to the hypoallergenic kibble, they stopped. When I give her large amounts of other food, they come back. It's not an adjustment to anything; it's an allergy.

I'm glad that you can feed your dogs the food that you feel is best, but again, I cannot get raw meat that cheap. Cookie has allergies and must eat her kibble. I already explained to you that I can't have a dog having diarrhea all over my house for however long it takes him to adjust to raw meat--not to mention the fact that there is enough sibling rivalry between them without my adding to it by giving one yummy meat and the other dry kibble. More importantly I cannot afford to give one dog kibble and the other raw meat. I can barely afford to feed my human family meat. You can keep insisting that I can afford it, but you're wrong. I think I understand my own situation a little better. If it makes me a bad person because I don't want to figure out who the processors are, where to find them, and how to get to them, then I'll just have to deal with that. Maybe if I felt like a raw diet would benefit my dogs specifically, I would, but I don't--and neither does my vet.

One diet is not right for every person--or every dog. Period.

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#77 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 02:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
You can keep insisting that I can afford it, but you're wrong. I think I understand my own situation a little better. If it makes me a bad person because I don't want to figure out who the processors are, where to find them, and how to get to them, then I'll just have to deal with that. Maybe if I felt like a raw diet would benefit my dogs specifically, I would, but I don't--and neither does my vet.

One diet is not right for every person--or every dog. Period.
Nobody insisted or even suggested that know or understand your financial situation. What was offered was that with a little ingenuity raw can be less expensive then even the lowest quality kibble - .17/lb is an incredible price. If you don't want the information don't take it.

Of course your vet would not agree that raw is appropriate - who sells you the hypoallergenic food? who benefits financially from a sick dog? My vet would totally disagree with your vet but that does not mean anything as vet's are not responsible for the proper care and feeding of our pets - we are.

Nobody is trying to convince you or anyone to feed raw. If you don't want to that's your perogative. The thread is about the "best dog food". As I said before breast milk is best for babies but some people feed formula. Insisting that formula is better than or just as good as breast milk is silly. This is the same situation - raw is best for dogs but if people don't want to feed raw they don't have to but it benefits no one to be in denial about it.
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#78 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 04:02 AM
 
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Christyb, I get that you are concerned with the ethics of feeding dog, and that you think that feeding meat to dogs is the ethical thing to do.

But there is a piece of this ethics puzzle I think you are leaving out.

Animal guardians have to decide which they feel is most cruel:

Feeding a dog a plant-based diet (which may or may not be the absolute best for that particular individual)

or

Supportingthe slaughter (and possibly lifelong mistreatment) of many, many other animals in order to feed the one that they care for.

If one is concerned with causing the least suffering in the world this will take some serious consideration.

If this thread were about what omnivores feed their pets, it might look different. But the thread began with a question about what vegetarians (in particular those who are veg for animal rights reasons).

Does my dog or cat deserve optimal health (not to mention have a greater the right to live) more than the animals whose bodies I might purchase for them to eat?

Sometimes, doing the ethical thing may require trade offs. I think every person on this thread might decide on those trade offs a bit differently.

But make no mistake--just as some think that those who feed companion animals a veg diet are mistreating animals, others think that those who support the slaughter of many animals to feed one are mistreating animals, as well.
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#79 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 04:18 AM
 
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You've made a choice to bring a climax predator into your home. You don't get to make it into a herbivore because it makes YOU feel better.

You support animal rights and the idea that each animal should live an ideal life in freedom, right? Doesn't that include eating the way nature designed them to eat? In the proper proportions, unwrecked by chemical processing? Why should your dog or cat not be allowed the same freedoms?

If you are uncomfortable with the notion of predation and of killing animals for their flesh, why do you own a climax predator? Good grief, the dog has no idea in the world why you're feeding it gorp--it does not share your convictions. It is biologically, mentally, and emotionally geared toward killing and eating small (and large) herbivores. If you feel so convicted that such a mindset is morally and ethically wrong that you refuse to feed the dog in the way it is designed to eat, don't own a dog at all.
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#80 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 12:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kaydee View Post
But there is a piece of this ethics puzzle I think you are leaving out.

Animal guardians have to decide which they feel is most cruel:

Feeding a dog a plant-based diet (which may or may not be the absolute best for that particular individual)

or

Supportingthe slaughter (and possibly lifelong mistreatment) of many, many other animals in order to feed the one that they care for.
That's actually my issue too. I agree that it's a dilema. We aren't vegetarian, but we don't do dairy (well, *I* don't, dp does a little), and the meat we eat is pastured, free range, well treated (I've been to the farm). It's important to me to not support factory farming.
I guess part of the answer to me, is to look for scraps that would otherwise be wasted. At this point, it involves me paying for it, so I guess it still does support the industry. But if my dogs are eating bones and other icky scraps from animals, that would otherwise be thrown out, at least I'm contributing less to animal deaths.
But, I agree with thekimballs. I've considered a lot of times that if I don't want to contribute to factory farming, that I should perhaps not own dogs after my own pass on (hopefully that will be a while for Shiloh).

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#81 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 01:48 PM
 
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Kaydee, I think that your post was one that most clearly defined the debate.

WE have a choice not to support the practices of factory farming. WE have a choice to support what WE believe is moral. WE have the choice to eat what we want. WE have the choice to bring a carnivore into our home and provide for them.

It does not matter what WE choose to be, vegetarian, vegan, etc..., because it is not about us - it's about the carnivore WE brought into our homes. That being said "best dog food for a vegetarian to feed" is the same as "best dog food for a omnivore to feed".

IF we choose to be a caregiver for a carnivore then we cannot supress their right to appropriate food and health so that we can fulfill our needs. If we cannot feed and care for a carnivore appropriately then we should not mistreat them to treat another animal "fairly" - I am not sure how that is reconciled. The choice isn't just feed the dog/cat vegetarian the way to truly honor your convictions about animal rights is to not to bring a carnivore into your home.

As Deva stated about her own conflict with feeding meat she is considering not bringing another dog into her home when her current dog passes away. I have also thought long and hard about this - I can't stand factory farming either - but I support it financially because I feed my carnivore a species appropriate diet. My feelings about factory farming cannot dominate Lola's right to a healthy life because it was MY choice to bring her into my home - as for animal rights that would putting my rights above hers. I either have to find a a small farm (none so far in southern California!) that treats their animals wonderfully, maybe feed organic (but I have my suspisions about organic now that the big corporations have glommed onto the "trend") or choose not to have a dog or cat again. Lola is 2 years old so regardless of how I do it I will be feeding her meat the rest of her life. What I choose to do for my body is a different story.
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#82 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 01:58 PM
 
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I must have misinterpreted everyone. You see, people are saying that a raw diet is the only appropriate diet for a dog and you, christyb, said feeding a dog inappropriately causes suffering. Therefore I took that to mean that, because I'm not feeding my dogs raw meat, they must be suffering. I also must have misinterpreted the point of pointing out that many start a raw diet because of allergies. You see, I thought that was suggesting that I should do the same, especially after the long explanation of how it can be afforded. I happen to think INSISTING that one can afford something if they do x or y is the same thing as acting as if you know someone's financial situation. Assuming that anyone can afford x or y or that x or y is available to them, to me, is presumptuous. Now, of course, my vet is evil and only wants to make money, like all doctors. I've had SEvERAL vets tell me the same thing, and guess what? When she eats the hypoallergenic dog food, she's fine. WHen she doesn't, she's not. So I know for a fact that the vet is right and isn't just trying to benefit financially. And your vet doesn't know me or my dog, so I don't care that he'd disagree with the various vets I've taken my dog to. For someone who isn't trying to convince you or anyone to feed raw, you sure come off quite the opposite way. It's not about not wanting to; it's about understanding that every dog has different needs and that one diet does NOT fit all for dogs, cats, or humans. That does not mean I'm in denial, and frankly, that's again rather rude, arrogant, and presumptuous to say.

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Doesn't that include eating the way nature designed them to eat?
Nature designed every dog differently, just as She did every other creature.

I'm sure if I cared enough about meat I could find a way to afford to feed EVERYONE in my family more meat, but unfortunately, for my family including my dogs, the diet we're on now--hypoallergenic for the pups and mostly vegetables with some meat for the humans--is keeping us all VERY healthy. You can tell me how I'm in denial, how raw meat would be best despite the fact that when she was eating raw meat and other things all the time her ears were always 3 times their regular size, how I could afford it if I really tried, how nothing but raw meat is appropriate, etc. Fine. But that I believe something else is best for my dog, who I know and have raised, doesn't mean I'm in denial. I AM meeting her needs AND respecting her rights: her right to eat a diet that DOESN'T cause her ears to swell up painfully. I agree with the basic point, that we shouldn't let our own opinions about morality interfere with feeding our dogs the most healthy diet for them. I just don't agree that raw is best for every single dog in the entire world. I know it's not best for mine.

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#83 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 02:50 PM
 
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Heather,

If you want to have a discussion then let's have one, just don't accuse me of stating something that I didn't. Also, you should include the person's name you are quoting.

I never wrote anything about price and you being able to afford it. Since I never mentioned it, I certainly, at least not logically speaking, should not be accused of insisting, presuming or knowing anything about your finances. I did address another poster's information about what she pays and suggested that if you didn't like the information offered to not take it. Now sure how you made that leap.

I never wrote that vets are evil. That would be odd, since I referenced my own vet! There is nothing wrong with using critical thinking skills and being curious about the source. Have you ever read the published and much referred to study about how co-sleeping is dangerous for baby? Have you ever asked your yourself where that information came from? If nobody had used their critical thinking skills to question motivation of the study it would be easy to miss that the study was funded by the juveinile mattress association (probably not the association's name exactly right). It's okay to question vets or anyone else, the question does not imply that the questioner believes that the other is evil! By the way, my vet doesn't need to know your dog or you to know that dogs are carnivores!

With regard to the breast feeding comment, just because somebody wants to believe that formula is best it does not make it so. While that's their perogative, denial of the facts does not help anyone. I notice in your signature line that you don't believe in circumcision or vaccinations - why? Did you research? Did you question the status quo? If somebody wants to have their baby boy's foreskin cut off it doesn't mean that those nerve endings won't be missed. If somebody wants to vaccinate their children or their pets it doesn't mean that damage won't be done - even if a vet or a medical doctor tells you differently. Pointing out the facts is not rude but I am sorry that you feel that way. However, the facts are the facts and denying them, pretending that they are different, ignoring them does not make them different or change them - it is just what is. You can believe whatever you want, that's your choice but the facts are still the facts. What you feed your dog or I feed mine and our accomanying beliefs don't change the fact that dogs are carnivores and carnivores need to eat meat.

The sicker the dog is the harder it is to transition them. Dogs don't naturally have allergies. When a dog is unhealthy they might begin to suffer from them and that is a tragedy and I am sorry that your dog is suffering. I understand the reasons why you don't want to switch but that does not mean that it is not better for the dog. I don't have a yard either and I have had two dogs in my care with tremendous digestive upset (my own and a foster dog) and in each case it was three weeks of hell. However, my desire to not have to deal with diarrhea on my carpet did not usurp either dog's right to a species appropriate diet.

Feeding a dog a "specialty" diet is supressing the symptoms not curing them. Ever known anyone to constantly take antibiotics? When they stop taking the antibiotics they get sick. Does that mean that the antibiotics are keeping them healthy? No, it means that the antibiotics keep them sick but the symptoms are supressed and eventually they will suffer even more if they don't address the underlying cause of the illness.
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#84 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thekimballs View Post
You've made a choice to bring a climax predator into your home. You don't get to make it into a herbivore because it makes YOU feel better.
Slightly OT:

See...to me this brings back the issues we discussed in the culling thread. When a person brings an animal into their home or is instrumental in the creation of their life, they have a certain responsibility to that animal. Those who are okay with culling (although I realize they don't love it, killing puppies is never a fun time for anyone, even one feels it is best) do what they see is best for the greater good, and those who feed veg food for ethical reasons are doing what they see is best for the greater good. One person may find what the other is doing highly objectionable, but it's just a matter of a different perception and not a lack of morals. As I'm sure it was obvious, this was a very difficult conclusion for me to reach from the other thread, but I got there.
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#85 of 102 Old 03-29-2007, 07:34 PM
 
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If people so quickly forget what it is they've said, it mustn't have been that important. :/

I am quite capable of questioning studies and doctor recommendations. I'm also quite capable of figuring out for myself whether something is true. My dog eats raw meat and other foods, she gets an ear infection. She eats the hypoallergenic kibble, and she's fine. I'm trusting my experience with that and my dog's reaction. I know the vet is right because I've seen the results. I know the vet isn't just trying to make money because even vets that don't sell the kibble have recommended it. I know because I live with her. Raw meat, ear infections. Hypoallergenic kibble, haelthy. If my doctor were lying or misinformed, then my dog would be healthier off the kibble...and she wasn't.

It's not about whether or not dogs are carnivores. It's about the fact that all dogs are different and have different needs. I consider you rude not for pointing out the fact that a raw diet is best for most dogs but for accusing me of being in denial for KNOWING that my dog is healthy on the hypoallergenic kibble and then gets terrible ear infections when she's not on it. I think that makes it pretty obvious that your one-size-fits-all diet doesn't fit my dog.

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Feeding a dog a "specialty" diet is supressing the symptoms not curing them.
There is no cure for allergies, so I miss your point here. The only treatment is to give a medication that supresses them or eliminate exposure to them. That's like saying that feeding a mother whose baby is having allergic reactions to something in her breastmilk a specialty diet is supressing the symptoms, not curing them. Should we not do that either? What is the cure for allergies? Is feeding my dog raw meat the cure? Even though I've told you REPEATEDLY that she was eating raw meat and various other things BEFORE she went on the kibble and was having ear infections...and then when she went on the kibble, she stopped...and that when she eats large quantities of other foods, including raw meat, she gets an ear infection? I think it's pretty obvious that the best thing for her is to NOT have painful ear infections that sometimes result in aural hematomas needing surgery. I know I'm doing what's best for my dog. I'm not in denial. I'm not denying any facts. I'm pointing out that every dog is different. Unless you can prove to me that every dog is the same, I'm done arguing with you. Different dogs have different needs, just like every other creature on this planet. I'm done defending my choice to you, being told how I'm in denial, being told that I can afford to feed them raw meat and that raw meat is best even though the only thing way to avoid allergic reactions is to keep her from eating the food to which she's allergic, etc. You keep going. I'm done.

Every dog is different. Raw may be best for most but it's not best for all. I know that from my own situation with my own pets. It's not best for MY dog. Therefore it's not best for all dogs, because if it was, then my dog wouldn't have started getting ear infections in the first place, wouldn't have stopped having them because of the kibble, and wouldn't have them anytime she strayed from the diet.

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#86 of 102 Old 03-30-2007, 01:04 AM
 
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I don't see not taking in a dog as a solution--it's really just passing the buck. The situation still exists in that the dog would likely just be fed meat in another home.

That's why animal rights folks work so hard to prevent unwanted animals from coming into existence.

Some people believe a veg diet for dogs and cats is fine.

Some believe it's fine for dogs but not cats.

Some believe it's not optimal, but it's good enough, and that the benefits of not supporting cruel industries is, as hanno put it, "the greater good."

Some also seem to believe that it's a simple matter: dogs need meat, and the other factors simply are non-issues. That is fine for them, and I think it must be nice to have such a sense of certainty (and righteousness?). But a person who is veg for ethical reasons cannot simply dismiss the connundrum in that way.
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#87 of 102 Old 03-30-2007, 04:26 PM
 
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Kaydee,

Your post made me think. I totally understand where you are coming from on the "pass the buck" statement. On a certain level I agree. However, ultimately I have to disagree and here's why.

I can't save every dog. If I don't keep this foster dog or go adopt another one from the shelter then am I passing the buck? At what point do you stop?

I believe that once you know better you must do better. I also believe that you have to do what you are able. I cannot feed Lola organic meats right now but I will still feed her meat. Not the best that is available, but I know that and I will strive to reach that. The argument of course can be made with those that feed vegetarian - if they don't go adopt all the dogs then are they passing the buck too?

I don't eat chocolate that isn't fair trade. I won't split a bill with someone that orders chocolate at a restaurant. Now my little financial protest isn't going to stop the slavery that takes place in the growing and harvesting of cacao but it is doing something. I personally am not in a position, or perhaps I choose not to move to the Ivory Coast and dedicate my life to stopping the slavery - is that passing the buck? Again, on some level I can agree with you but how can we dedicate our lives to stopping every injustice?

I have a huge list of injustices that I rally against - I don't support them financially, I do support alternatives financially, I share information, etc... I know that I am not doing every thing possible with every cause I support but I just don't think that is passing the buck.

Just because I feed my carnivore dog a meat diet does not mean that I don't take other factors into consideration. They are in consideration as well as my carnivore's health, happiness and well-being. If my carnivore were left to her own devices she would hunt her own meat not her own carrots! I have made a choice to feed her meat and I knowingly am supporting farming practices that I abhor. I cannot withhold meat from my carnivore though because of my feelings. I can strive to change the practices in other ways - I personally don't require meat but I choose to eat meat but only organic meat. Not ideal for some, too much trouble for others, maybe some see it as passing the buck...
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#88 of 102 Old 03-31-2007, 02:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
My dog eats raw meat and other foods, she gets an ear infection. [snip] Even though I've told you REPEATEDLY that she was eating raw meat and various other things.
Just out of curiosity- What "other things"? And what type of meat. Was she ever eating ONLY raw meat for weeks at a time?
And what are the ingredients in the hypoallergenic kibble?

Obviously you don't need to answer my questions, and you seem to be happy with your situation. But from a more general,a cademic argument POV I'm interested.
I understand and totally agree that not all dogs can follow the exact same diet. However, "raw meat" and especially "raw meat and other foods" is a vary wide range of foods and doesn't actually describe a specific diet plan. Which is what a dog with allergies needs.

To me, it's like having a parent come and tell me how much better their kid is eating only french fries and a multivitamin everyday instead of a varied diet full of fresh, living foods. Which- if their kid is allergic to nuts and soy (just for example) but never diagnosed and was previously being fed foods that contained nuts & soy and the fries contain no nuts or soy, then I am sure they are doing better. But it doesn't mean that they are eating optimally. Certainly a better choice would be an elimination diet and/or allergy testing that demonstrated that the allergy was to nuts & soy, and then the child could eat a healthy natural diet and avoid nuts & soy instead of only eating the fries.

So if A dog is allergic to wheat & corn (relatively common) and chicken & beef (rarer but possible) and they were getting those foods then they will improve on a lamb & rice kibble. But that doesn't preclude that it would be more species appropriate and likely produce an even healthier dog, to feed a variety of non-chicken, non-beef raw meats (lamb, rabbit, pork, fish, ostrich, etc.) (and just cut out the grains altogether).
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#89 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 12:08 AM
 
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Raw meat, cooked meat, some fruit, breads, as well as regular kibble. When I switched her to the hypoallergenic kibble she stopped.

Now let me make this perfectly clear, as you seem to be missing it.

She never eats large amounts of fruits or bread, but if she eats more than a little here and there, she gets a horrible ear infection.

If she eats large amounts of cooked meat,
if she eats large amounts of raw meat,

she gets a terrible ear infection.

When she eats only small quantities of those things, she is healthy.

Therefore, feeding her large amounts of meat, cooked or raw, which I have observed causing ear infections and know to have caused them on numerous occasions, is not a good idea for her.

It's common sense. I know that lots of meat makes her have an ear infection, it always has. Lots of fruits and breads makes her have one. If she eats nothing but hypoallergenic kibble, then has a meal of raw chicken, she gets an ear infection. If she eats only hypoallergenic kibble and then manages to steal a few steaks, or get into some lunch meat, she gets an ear infection.

Ear infections are not an adjustment. They are specifically caused by her food allergies. Allergies are not curable, only treatable by avoiding the allergen. Therefore to avoid it I feed her the hypoallergenic kibble.

Please don't insult me by comparing my dog's diet to fast food. They aren't comparable, no matter what your narrow-minded views about raw meat and your logic tell you. I have already tried eliminating and experimenting with foods. This is what keeps her healthy. Please stop judging and trying to prove to me that I haven't thoroughly investigated enough to know whether this is best and to know what is the optimal food for her. Eating fast food because you're allergic to soy is very different from eating prescription dogfood because large amounts of everything else give you a nasty ear infection.

I don't need your approval, but there, I have answered your questions. No, she has never ate only raw meat for weeks at a time. An ear infection isn't an adjustment; it's an allergy. Why in God's name would I feed her something for weeks at a time that causes her ears to swell up 3-4 times their usual size? Maybe that's what you'd do to your dog in this situation, but I don't believe in torture--and I won't do it to prove something to you, myself, or anyone.

And come on, where would I get ostrich meat? Seriously. And how would I afford to feed my dog lamb when I can barely afford chicken for my family? I'd rather feed her hypoallergenic kibble than nothing at all. Do you know how expensive fish is? Gee, why don't I just give her away and abandon her to a family that can afford to feed her those expensive things--though I doubt there are any out there who'd be willing to do it.

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#90 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 12:49 AM
 
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moonfirefaery- I'm sorry you feel judged.
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