Vegetarian with a dog- best dog food? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#91 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 01:38 AM
 
moonfirefaery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 3,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The apology doesn't help, especially after you compared my dog's diet to fast food.

I'd much rather see an explanation of how to afford lamb and fish when I can barely afford to feed my own humans family chicken and how exactly I should feel if switching her to that more expensive raw diet of non-beef and non-poultry causes her to have another month-long triple-in-size ear infection.

fambedsingle2.gif Heather, 25, single mom to Corbin, 5, and Orin, 3  uc.jpg  delayedvax.gif  nocirc.gif
Oh how I miss the days of femalesling.GIF  nak.gifcd.gif  
moonfirefaery is offline  
#92 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 02:59 AM
 
thekimballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 5,724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm not sure what you want us to say. You said yourself that kibble was a very inferior form of nutrition, so processed that it wasn't even meat anymore, but now you're mad that someone compared it to junk food?

YES, you can feed raw incredibly cheaply. Fish, lamb, beef, goose, ostrich, quail. I have PERSONALLY bought each of those meats for under a dollar a pound, in the most expensive area of the country (Boston) and my current expenditure is something like twenty cents a pound overall. You said earlier that you weren't interested in taking the time to find out how to feed it inexpensively. Fine. Then don't say that there's no way to do it cheaply; say that you don't know how to do it cheap and you're not going to find out.

YES, allergies can be cured. Been there, done that. MANY dogs have been completely cured of allergies by going on a raw diet. YES, I could most likely take your dog and switch her to raw, use supplements and homeopathy, and clear up her ear infections. I've done sicker dogs with many more problems.

If you want to feed your dog kibble, I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to do so. I have never told anyone that they're irresponsible if they feed kibble, and in fact I'd rather see someone feeding kibble well than feeding a raw diet badly or with no research. What I won't stand is someone saying that we're all narrow-minded and impractical to feed our dogs this way, or to say that it doesn't improve health. It does improve health. You can do it cheaply. There's no way I could ever have done it if it wasn't CHEAPER than just about every kibble out there. It's a great diet. If you don't feed it, fine. But don't disrespect (or basically accuse of lying) those of us who do.
thekimballs is offline  
#93 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 03:20 AM
 
Rico'sAlice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern Berkshire County, MA
Posts: 3,167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
As I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico'sAlice View Post
Obviously you don't need to answer my questions, and you seem to be happy with your situation. But from a more general,a cademic argument POV I'm interested.
I am not personally invested it what you feed your dog. I was a having a more general discussion about raw, allergies,etc. Yes, you/your dog were the "case study" or whatever, but the point wasn't to tell you what you should be doing. I asked you questions, and then went on to discuss some wider issues. I was really unprepared for such an emotional reaction. I really don't know how to address that aspect of your posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
The apology doesn't help, especially after you compared my dog's diet to fast food.
What? I never even mentioned fast food, so I'm not sure what you mean. ?


Quote:
I'd much rather see an explanation of how to afford lamb and fish when I can barely afford to feed my own humans family chicken and how exactly I should feel if switching her to that more expensive raw diet of non-beef and non-poultry causes her to have another month-long triple-in-size ear infection.
I know nothing about your finances. I don't know what is available in your area I also don't know how much you pay for the kibble you buy. However, while I understand that it may be a significant factor to how you actually feed your dog IRL, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion of what your dog is capable of eating (or not eating).

You have failed to identify/mention any specific allergens so I have no idea if your dog is actually needs to avoid beef, or chicken, or anything specific. I have no idea what are her "safe" foods either as you did not answer my question about the ingredients in the kibble she is currently eating.

However, my point was really not trying to "diagnose" your dog or suggest what she would be able to eat. I was giving generalized examples of what dogs COULD be allergic to and what they COULD be fed as alternatives. For all I know your dog is allergic to ostrich!

Being on a raw diet or not is a separate issue from identifying and avoiding certain allergens. [of course for some OTHER dogs the issue was a specific additive, preservative, etc. in kibble and they could switch to almost any home made diet or a "natural" kibble and see improvement]

Obviously there are foods that your dog is allergic to that are not in the "hypoallergenic" kibble. But "hypoallergenic" kibble is not magic. There is nothing special about what it does contain- only what it does NOT contain.
[For a long time many were made of lamb and rice b/c they were uncommon ingredients so few dogs had allergies to them. However, people starter thinking they were "better" and feeding it as a matter of course and so some dogs built up allergies to the lamb& rice food. So then we go onto fish & potato, or rabbit& pea based kibble. etc. But if everyone feeds that then you get some dogs having an allergy to potatoes, rabbit, fish, etc.]
Dogs can be allergic to "hypoallergenic" kibble. In a universal sense it's kind-of a misnomer. The point is that it has ingredients that the average dog is unlikely to have eaten previously. It's just a matter of finding the food that does not contain any of the ingredients that your particular dog happens to be allergic to.

My only point is that THEORETICALLY one could feed a specific home prepared diet that also avoided those allergens. ["Raw meat" or "meat" is not a specific food that one could be allergic to.] An obvious place to start would be based on natural, whole versions of the primary ingredients in the kibble.

But again, that doesn't mean I am saying that is what you personally should do! You've figured out an option that works for you. Great. Although we are talking about your dog, the issue isn't really about you. It's a discussion thread. If someone brings something up, then it is potential fodder for discussion. I was really only interested in sorting out the "facts of the case" and discussing what they meant. I have no business or interest in "approving" of what you do or not.

The real issue for me is in separating out what's involved with finding a diet on which your dog avoids allergic reactions from the debate of feeding raw versus feeding kibble as it is a separate set of determinants and for you to present them as the same muddles the more general discussion occurring on this thread.
Rico'sAlice is offline  
#94 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 11:18 AM
 
moonfirefaery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 3,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I said that kibble isn't the same thing as meat and that most low-quality brands are an inferior form. I don't believe that prescription dogfood is comparable to junk food; I'm sure it's of much higher quality.

Where exactly do you find fish, lamb, and quail so cheap? You keep telling me that you do it all the time so it can be done. Well, how?

No, allergies can't be cured. The only thing you can do is get rid of the allergen. As I have explained repeatedly raw meats cause my dog to develope ear infections, too. If raw meats stopped your dog from reacting to allergens, great. Your dog isn't mine.

Quote:
What? I never even mentioned fast food, so I'm not sure what you mean. ?
Quote:
To me, it's like having a parent come and tell me how much better their kid is eating only french fries and a multivitamin everyday instead of a varied diet full of fresh, living foods.
You did, in this analogy. Or was that irrelevent to my dog's diet?

The only safe food I have found for her is the hypoallergenic kibble. Being on a raw diet IS the same issue as avoiding allergic reactions when the allergic reactions are caused by her diet, and every time I've given her raw meat, she's had an ear infection. Again, I'm not going to torture her by feeding her beef for a month, chicken for a month, fish for a month, etc. and observing the changes in the size of her ear to find out what specifically she can and cannot eat. Maybe you would do that to your dog, but I won't do that to mine. The kibble keeps her healthy and stops her from having ear infections, so it is obvious to me that she should be eating that and not a raw diet. An elimination diet will do nothing but torture her with ear infections until I've satisfied myself that she's allergic to x and y but not a and b. If you want to try an elimination diet with your dog, do it, but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop telling me how inappropriate and inferior her diet is and how ignorant I am of her condition simply because I refuse to torture her experimenting with food.

fambedsingle2.gif Heather, 25, single mom to Corbin, 5, and Orin, 3  uc.jpg  delayedvax.gif  nocirc.gif
Oh how I miss the days of femalesling.GIF  nak.gifcd.gif  
moonfirefaery is offline  
#95 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 04:16 PM
 
Rico'sAlice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern Berkshire County, MA
Posts: 3,167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I do not consider french fries synonymous with fast food. I don't consider them junk food either. I do not place any judgement on french fries as either good or bad. French fries can be greasy fast food. They can also be homemade from organic potatoes baked with a coarting of olive oil and sprinkling of sea salt. I was just trying to pick a cooked food that didn't have a lot of different ingredients. The other idea that came to mind was corn flakes. I did not realize you would equate it with fast food.

As to the rest of it, I am obviously unable to communicate my point to you.
In addition, your refusal to properly utilize the quote function (despite requests by others) is making it too hard to understand to whom you are addressing different parts of your posts. I really have no need to deal with this any further.
I am unsubscribing.
Rico'sAlice is offline  
#96 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 04:47 PM
 
thekimballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 5,724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I find lamb and beef incredibly cheaply by going to slaughterhouses. There are small slaughterhouses EVERYWHERE, both USDA inspected and not. I ask for the scraps that are being thrown away--lung, stomach, bones, etc.

I get venison at deer cutter/deer processors. I just ask if they'll let me look through the scrap barrels in the back. That's always been free.

I get quail through the local raw-feeding coop, which gets them from a restaurant supplier that sells deboned quail to restaurants. They're thrilled to get rid of the carcasses (which still have quite a bit of intact meat).

Ostrich comes from a regional ostrich/emu farm. Necks and bones are considered scrap.

Chicken backs and duck carcass come from a local restaurant supply house.

Goose comes from the local slaughterhouse.

Lamb necks come from a butcher who sells them for making soups/stocks. Those are HUGE, and cost $1 or so a pound.

Fish I get from the fish market; I ask for heads. You can sometimes get whole fish that cheaply too.

There's no reason it can't be done.
thekimballs is offline  
#97 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 04:50 PM
 
thekimballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 5,724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And yes, allergies can be CURED. Allergies are a stress reaction--eliminate the stress, the allergies often go away. I've been diagnosed as allergic to cats, dust mites, mold, etc. This was a scratch test by an allergy specialist. What was actually wrong was a toxic house we were renting at the time as well as two pregnancies right in a row. My body was depleted and reactive to anything.

I now own a cat, own a dusty house, sleep on feather pillows, and work in my basement (which can get moldy). Zero reaction to anything.
thekimballs is offline  
#98 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 04:52 PM
 
moonfirefaery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 3,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If french fries are fine then I don't understand your analogy.

Allergies are a reaction to allergens, whether you think it's stress or not. Tell a mom whose breastfed baby is allergic to something in her milk that it's just stress. Or the mother of a child who is lactose intolerant. See how that flies.

I'll look into slaughterhouses and co-ops and whatnot here, though I really don't understand how fish heads and bird necks would be better for my dogs.

fambedsingle2.gif Heather, 25, single mom to Corbin, 5, and Orin, 3  uc.jpg  delayedvax.gif  nocirc.gif
Oh how I miss the days of femalesling.GIF  nak.gifcd.gif  
moonfirefaery is offline  
#99 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 05:05 PM
 
thekimballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NH
Posts: 5,724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you don't understand it, DON'T FEED IT. Seriously. DON'T. If you don't want to research it and understand it first, if you're not on board, don't do it. It's far too dangerous. You need to take on the responsbility to make a complete diet for your dog, and that doesn't mean just throwing fish heads and bird necks at it. If you want to actually research it, let me know and I can recommend books to read.
thekimballs is offline  
#100 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 05:19 PM
 
moonfirefaery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 3,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I never expressed any intention of doing it without understanding it, only of looking into it to see if I can do it, if I can find it, if I can afford it, to know if it's even worth it to proceed with doing the research and coming up with a plan.

I am taking responsibility for feeding my dog what is best for her, whether you agree or not. You are the one who has judged me as someone who doesn't care and is too lazy to do the research by assuming that I plan to just suddenly start throwing necks and heads at my dog.

fambedsingle2.gif Heather, 25, single mom to Corbin, 5, and Orin, 3  uc.jpg  delayedvax.gif  nocirc.gif
Oh how I miss the days of femalesling.GIF  nak.gifcd.gif  
moonfirefaery is offline  
#101 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 05:55 PM
 
Danemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh good grief. I have been following this thread and am exhausted now. It has been explained to the best of everyone's ability and Heather has her back up by feeling like she is being picked apart so every single point someone makes is being disputed by her. Guess everyone needs to end the discussion and move on or start explaining it to someone who is open-minded about it. Not saying, Heather, that you are a closed-minded person, just about this topic. You are talking to people who are much more experienced than your 21 years but you don't want to even consider what's being said. That's your choice but everyone needs to stop wasting their time. The advice and suggestions are obviously falling on the deaf ears of someone who apparently has all the answers she could possibly need without input from anyone here. So what's the point of keeping this going?

Next thread.........
Danemom is offline  
#102 of 102 Old 04-03-2007, 08:05 PM
 
moonfirefaery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 3,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
.

fambedsingle2.gif Heather, 25, single mom to Corbin, 5, and Orin, 3  uc.jpg  delayedvax.gif  nocirc.gif
Oh how I miss the days of femalesling.GIF  nak.gifcd.gif  
moonfirefaery is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off