Pit bulls DISCUSSION, SAD, no flames pls - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 78 Old 10-29-2007, 03:09 PM
 
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I have given some thought to finding a solution for irresponsible dog ownership as well - Insurance on ALL dogs. I believe it would help people become more responsible with their dogs. It could also give police an excuse, if you will, to investigate suspicious dog activity.
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#62 of 78 Old 10-29-2007, 03:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by boingo82 View Post
Or banning assault rifles. They're only dangerous in the wrong human hands, and they do far more damage more rapidly than a pistol.
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Originally Posted by Camellia View Post
Or fast food. In the wrong hands it kills millions.
As much as I agree that it isn't fair to ban dog breeds, neither guns nor fast food are sentient and cannot be trained to harm others. Someone has to pull the trigger.

The issue IMO, isn't with the breed at all but the dog fighting and what happens to the animals once they are rescued from their vicious owners. Those dogs can't always be rehabilitated, even if they can one still has to be very careful with them.

It is just a bandaid to the problem of dogfighting. They need to work harder at stopping the dogfighting rather than just blaming the victims. It is horribly sad but around here, I wouldn't rescue a pit, or another one of the larger breeds like a rott (and rotts are one of my favorite breeds) I might do so in other areas, but not around here.

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#63 of 78 Old 10-29-2007, 05:54 PM
 
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Well, I seem to be in the minority here, but I AM more scared of pit bulls than of other breeds of dogs. I am careful around all dogs, including our golden retriever, because they deserve respect and are animals, worthy of good care and love. And any dog can bite (hard) and worse if provoked (though some dogs will take more provocation than others).

But I DO think that pit bulls, by nature and possibly breeding, are, in general, more aggressive than other dogs. Or possibly not more aggressive all the time, but more vicious when angry than other dogs. They seem to be more persistent (and harder to ward off in an attack), and incredibly strong (as are some other dogs, of course).
I feel the same way. I know there are aggressive dogs of any breed and unaggressive pit bulls. But after a very bad experience with them, I just can't seem to take their side. I'm one of those moms that would pull my child away from a pit bull at the park. I realize thats not really rational.

My son feels the same way about black dogs, of any breed, because he had a scare once.
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#64 of 78 Old 10-29-2007, 06:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jauncourt View Post
That said, there is something awful happening near where my mom lives (rural southern central IL, an hour or so east of St Louis). There is a large pack of dogs/coyotes mauling animals in her area (especailly other dogs - they have killed both dogs belonging to my mothers immediate neighbor and tried to kill mom's dog two days ago). Some are clearly feral former fighting dogs that were dumped by dog fight promoters. At least one is a pit.

They will have to be hunted down and killed, or captured and euthanized - these dogs are too dangerous. I am guessing that Fish and Game will opt for a sponsored hunt, unless the ASPCA or Humane Society become interested.
That's horrible. They could have been somebody's best friend, somebody's "baby", if raised differently, treated like living beings, instead of fighting machines and then thrown out like garbage.

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#65 of 78 Old 10-29-2007, 06:48 PM
 
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Well, just like I hate to see teeny dogs in slings and strollers (except for med reasons) - they are not babies, people, they are dogs...I do believe that animals are bred to have certain traits, physical attributes etc. When you look at how/way pits and rotts were bred, you have to wonder whether it would be wise to have them in families.

I know I am going to get flamed, but you wanted honest opinions. I think there are irresponsible owners and I think that people force dogs to be what they are not whether you are talking about chiuahuas or pits.

Some dogs are best as working dogs, some as family dogs, hence the problem. Just my two cents.

And yes, I caution dd on all dogs, but on german shepards, pits, bulls and rotts in particular...but again, just my two cents....
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#66 of 78 Old 10-29-2007, 07:03 PM
 
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Sorry if this is slightly OT, but I felt the need to respond.

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Originally Posted by skyastara View Post
I completely disagree with this statement.
Well, it is true for an unstable dog, but for a normal dog this is not true. If you get bitten and don't know why, it is because you didn't know how to interact with the dog- you either instigated the bite or you ignored (didn't see) warning signs, or both.
While I disagree with MJKA's statement,

I don't think it is normal for a dog to attack for no reason.

I also disagree with yours, skystara.

I was attacked by a dog.
I know dogs, I know how to interact with dogs.

I was riding my bike in the street.
The dog came up behind me quickly and bit my thigh, and didn't let go.
Other than a quick low growl and bark (from behind me), I had no warning.
Even then, I had no time to react.
It was all very quick.
His owner was afraid to get him away from me.
Lucky for me the owner saw his dog attack me from inside his home while he was looking out the window.
The dog kept trying to get at me even as the owner tried to lead me into his house for first aid treatment.
I did nothing wrong.

I neither instigated the attack nor did I ignore any warning signs.

The dog attacked me completely unprovoked.
This dog was not unstable.
He was unsocialized, and untrained, yes, but not unstable.


ETA:
I was unaware of the dog's presence until I heard that growl.
He was an un-neutered male.
He was in a protective pack mentality, as he'd been let out with two un-neutered females to 'guard' the property every day at 7 am.
I was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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#67 of 78 Old 10-29-2007, 08:34 PM
 
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The above bite actually makes the most sense of any. The dog was off-leash, protecting his boundaries, and you rode by on a bike (threatening + prey/running). From the dog's point of view you did instigate the behavior. The fault is the owner's for not having the dog contained.
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#68 of 78 Old 10-29-2007, 09:13 PM
 
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I love all dogs, I'm afraid of very few, because I can generally read them very well. I do get nervous with dogs around my son, even if I know them. There are few exceptions. However I'm happy to report that I don't discriminate between breeds. Given that I was a dog trainer and worked professionally, and now as a parent I get nervous around dogs with my kids, I give other parents the benefit of the doubt. Mind you, there are plenty who recognise my dog's breed and let their kids come arunnin', which while might be safe with my dog, isn't a good thing to let your kids get used to.

We have a Newfoundland who basically is a big mush, but is rambunctious, so I have to watch him a bit. Our German Shepherd who was 130lbs and not fat by any means, just huge was absolutely delicate around our son when he was alive and this was as he was losing fine motor control. But you'd expect the Newfoundland to be more delicate and the German Shepherd to be more rambunctious but it was the other way around.

Pit bulls were banned here a few years ago. There have been court challenges and some headway has been made. I totally disagree with breed bans, guess how well they work? Only the responsible people are being inconvenienced. I see pit bull puppies all the time (they're not even allowed to be bred or imported here now) and unmuzzled/leashed dogs. Animal Control receives so little funding and the police have six thousand other things to do than to chase down unmuzzled dogs. So there's the pragmatic part. But overall, I don't believe the breed is inherently any more dangerous than many other breeds. It only takes a couple of generations of breeding to turn some extremely docile dogs into unstable animals. Which basically means 4 years if you're on a slow timeline. Like someone mentioned, some time ago, it was Rottweilers, then Dobermans, then German Shepherds. As more and more people import various breeds from around the world, there will be a shift from pit bulls being the "dangerous" breed to other breeds. Banning is just so pointless from my point of view, and real laws and bylaws need to be put in place to stop irresponsible dog ownership and breeding altogether.

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#69 of 78 Old 10-29-2007, 11:51 PM
 
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I don't know...I live in a large city, and pitbulls are not banned. I'd actually kinda like to see them banned, or regulated somehow, within city limits.

Inside big cities, there are lot more people who are looking for "testicles on a leash." I see them every time I'm downtown near the big public parks...huge, tough guys, being practically dragged along by their pitbulls (who are usually wearing fancy spiked collars, and in several cases are being led around on ridiculous 3" rope "tough guy" leashes...it must be a leash fad, like spinning rims or something).

Inside big cities, there are also a lot more people who, for good reasons or bad (I'm not here to judge their motivations), feel they need a vicious, scary-looking dog to protect their yard and property. I used to live very close to the inner city (I'm still within the city, but moved), and I was regularly told by kids, neighbors, and people walking around, that they were going to get a new dog and "make it mean." When walking friends' dogs, people sometimes looked at us like we were crazy for being tender toward the dog. Comments like "you're supposed to hit 'em...that'll make 'em mean." were common.

Now, if I lived in some of these neighborhoods, I might also be inclined to use any means of protection necessary. I can't know, because I'm not in their shoes.

In my shoes, though, it scares the hell out of me that people are "breeding" pit bulls (mostly) for the sole sake of having a scary, vicious, yard-guarding, testicles-on-a-leash dog. If it would reduce the tendency to have that happen, I'd like to see most, if not all, "scary" breeds banned within city limits. There are thousands and thousands of animals living miserable, angry lives because their only perceived use is to be frightening and mean. They're made to be that way.

Are there many people within city limits who are good dog owners to "scary" breeds? Yeah! Our humane society is constantly filled with pit mixes and the like, and I'm sure most of them end up in happy, safe homes. However, to me it would be better to have a city law against anyone having these breeds than to see the most common (by far) uses of these breeds continue.

I haven't thought it all out yet, so there are probably gaping flaws in my argument, but I really, truly believe that pit-breeds and the like are far more of a problem in large cities....and it's not the dogs, it's the people. But to me, there IS something to the idea of taking the possibility of having those dogs away equalling some greater societal good. I know the fast food/car/etc. arguments are thrown up as an example of why that's silly, but let's look at it this way.... it's always the people, not the "thing" (dog/fast food/car) that's the problem.

So....does that mean that we shouldn't have extra precautions for new or teen drivers? They're a consistently more "troublesome" population with cars, and it's not uncommon that we have laws to make cars less threatening in their hands. We regulate how people can use the cars, because cars in certain hands are, in general, more dangerous.

And what about fast food or junkfood? In certain populations, especially low income families and teenagers, fast food and junkfood is causing huge problems. They're definitely a "troublesome" population with fast food. To that end, we have cities pushing to get rid of junkfood in schools, and community groups working to open grocery stores and farmers' markets in the inner city. We regulate/lobby to change how people can eat, because junkfood in certain hands is, in general, more harmful.

So with dogs.... In certain populations, in my opinion in large cities, the way people are handling certain breeds is a big problem. So for me, it isn't crazy to think that we would regulate how people can own dogs.

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#70 of 78 Old 10-30-2007, 12:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rani View Post
When you look at how/way pits and rotts were bred, you have to wonder whether it would be wise to have them in families.

And yes, I caution dd on all dogs, but on german shepards, pits, bulls and rotts in particular...but again, just my two cents....
Here is an example of what I meant when I said that a bit of research can do a world of good.

Rottweilers were bred as cattle drovers (they didn't herd anything, they trotted behind or to the side of the cows to keep them on track on days-long runs to market), cart haulers and butcher's dogs (meaning they hung out around the shop to eat scraps).

German Shepherds were bred as herding dogs (thus the name). They also acted as guardians for the herd.

So I'm not sure why it would be unwise to have a carting dog in a family???? Yes, they are big and stubborn but so are Saint Bernards.
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#71 of 78 Old 10-30-2007, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RedOakMomma View Post
Our humane society is constantly filled with pit mixes and the like, and I'm sure most of them end up in happy, safe homes. However, to me it would be better to have a city law against anyone having these breeds than to see the most common (by far) uses of these breeds continue.

The problem with bans is that the banned breed(s) are automatically seized under most bans, even if the dog is NOT dangerous. Once siezed, they are quickly euthanized, because they are not adoptable uner the ban. Often in cases of banned dogs (this includes mixes that might be banned breed mixes) being siezed/turned in, even breed rescue organizations are barred from attempting to save the dogs.

When banned breeds are seized from abusive/dogfighting owners, the owners or people who supply them will go to neighboring cities where there are no bans and steal family pets for fighting purposes to replace the seized dogs. These people are already breaking laws - they don't care if they hurt people or dogs or break more laws to keep doing what they were doing.

Bans only hurt the good owners and the dogs, and not just where they are enacted. The laws need to be more stringent for the people the bans are aimed at.

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#72 of 78 Old 10-30-2007, 01:20 AM
 
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I would have agreed that it is unfortunate that this breed is discriminated against about a week ago. However, since then my dog was attacked and killed by 2 pits and an akita. As with all breeds there are some that are agressive and some that are not, but my snippy chihuhua couldnt have accomplished that, not even if I had 3.
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#73 of 78 Old 10-30-2007, 08:08 AM
 
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Rottweilers were bred as cattle drovers (they didn't herd anything, they trotted behind or to the side of the cows to keep them on track on days-long runs to market), cart haulers and butcher's dogs (meaning they hung out around the shop to eat scraps).
I think you have misunderstood your research. Butcher's dogs were not kept around the shop to dispose of scraps. They were used to subdue the livestock that was about to be slaughtered. In the days of old European butchers, there were no "scraps". They used the entire animal, think head cheese, blood sausage, haggis etc... The butcher's dog was probably well fed, but his "job" was not scrap disposal! Although, plenty for dogs I know would LOVE that job! Many of the "bull" type breeds were "butcher's dogs".

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#74 of 78 Old 10-30-2007, 11:30 AM
 
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I think of breed bans as a sort of 'breedism' if you will!

Then again, IMO I would rather see a ban on all pits everywhere than see the senseless and barbaric cruelty that is dog fighting and that pits are used for. I dont agree that it is an either or situation, but if it were, I would rather see no one allowed to own pits if it meant no pits were allowed to be tortured in dog fighting rings.

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#75 of 78 Old 10-30-2007, 11:45 AM
 
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I'm torn on the pit bull ban. I wouldn't say I'm afraid of them but I don't trust them.

Saying that, I don't trust ANY dog I don't know. I live in the city and loose dogs are my BIGGEST fear. You wal by houses and dogs just lunge and jump at fences, while strining the strength of their chains. They go nuts.

Friends of ours have a gorgeous pit named Stank. He is gentle dog but I woldn't be alone with him. I went to visit them on Saturday. I knocked ont he door and their chihuahua ran to the door followed by the pit. the chihuahua yipped the whole time I stood waiting. I thought I saw someone so I took one step closer to that door. Stank went crazy barking. Stank knows me but only with his family.

I'd be alone with someones small dog, because in a pinch if that dog attack I know I could serisouly hurt it or kill it with my bare hands. (Isn't that morbid??) but a big dog that isnt possible.

Oh, and when I left their house later on that day, Stank, at his whopping 85 pounds, was standing on the back of the couch spread out trying to catch a mosquito!

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#76 of 78 Old 10-30-2007, 12:20 PM
 
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My town does not have a ban on pitts, but you are supposed to have insurance in order to have one. Most people don't, and the enforcement is almost nonexistent. Our local humane society will not adopt out pitts or pitt mixes, though there is an on-site evaluator who can recommend the animal be sent to pitt rescue, rather than being automatically destroyed.

I grew up with big dogs, we had Irish Wolfhounds. They are hands-down the sweetest, most gentle dogs I've ever been around. We got our first when my brother was 18 months old and I was 5. But visitors to our house were often fearful at first, because there is a perception of big=vicious. The only time our dogs ever hurt a person was when the paper girl stepped on one while he was sleeping in the yard. We had an invisible fence and she knew to stay on the sidewalk, but one day she cut across the yard and stepped on his tail, he woke up freaked out and bit her arm. She was fine, but this helped to remind us all that they are still animals and have instincts to protect themselves and their homes.We had a pitt when I was a baby and I managed to pull a fistful of whiskers out of her face when I was in my grabbing stage...she just sat there and took it.

On the other hand, my brother was bitten in the face by a dachsund and my husband has a 'dimple' on his cheek where a chunk was taken out by a cocker spaniel. So I really think it has less to do with the breed and more with the individual animal's temperament and their training. That said, though, if I'm out in my neighborhood and a rott or a pitt comes running up to me I am going to be a little fearful. So I don't know.
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#77 of 78 Old 10-30-2007, 02:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekimballs View Post
The above bite actually makes the most sense of any. The dog was off-leash, protecting his boundaries, and you rode by on a bike (threatening + prey/running). From the dog's point of view you did instigate the behavior. The fault is the owner's for not having the dog contained.
That dog bite attack happened to me 11 years ago.
I still have a terribly scarred right thigh.

At the time I was working at a vet office.
Once I was able to return to work, my first day back a little poodle scared the crap out of me.
It took a really long time to not be jumpy around dogs.

Previously, I'd had virtually no fear of dogs.
But then, I'd never before been around a dog like that (the one that attacked me).
Meaning, I'd never been around an under-socialized, untrained, living on instinct alone - type of dog.

ETA:
This happened in rural, SW Missouri in 1996.

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#78 of 78 Old 10-30-2007, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Here is the news story on "Rover-loution", the march that was held last weekend. http://www.nbcactionnews.com/mediacenter/local.aspx I hope that works, if it doesn't go directly to the story, it is titled "dog owners claiming breed discrimination". My dd and sis were the two holding the big banner.

You know, I guess what the bottom line here is, why can't people be responsible and kind???? Is it reeeeeally that hard?:
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