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#61 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Do you think your overwhelmed feeling will be solved by them saying "please" when they make their demands, and "thank you" when you fulfill them? With 3 children 5 and under, it just seems like there's a lot of need and only one you.

I only have 2 -- an 8yo and a 3yo, and sometimes I feel overwhelmed. And they've actually absorbed the "please" and "thank you"-thing by osmosis. The overwhelmed feeling comes at those moments when I feel like I can't successfully meet everyone's needs including my own -- it has nothing to do with whether I'm hearing "please."

Since you have 3 so close together, I imagine that overwhelmed feeling comes a lot more frequently for you. Just hang in there, they really do grow and learn, and so do we.

I dont think it will make the overwhelmed thing go away but I'll be darned if I let my kids treat me like I am a servant to them. kwim?
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#62 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 04:16 PM
 
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- but I wouldn't take the word of a 5 year old who has just made two poor choices in a row and is at risk of getting in trouble - and of course he knows it.
I guess it depends on the child. My children sometimes make poor choices -- but they're also honest about what they did and why they did it. This may be because, similar to the OP, I do the "talking to"-method so they're really not scared of getting in trouble.

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I understand that some people will say that if gramma is allowed to in any way physically help to get him inside, he is at higher risk for true bad things to happen. But that is an awful big stretch IMO. I hate to even see the word abduction in this thread - because of course 100% of us would agree kids or adults should try to get away and get help if they were being abducted. It was his GRAMMA getting him to go into HIS OWN HOUSE.
I don't see it as paving the way for abduction. However, I do see it as paving the way for Grandma to feel safe doing this sort of thing in future -- if the OP's son had just tolerated her doing it this time. The fact that she got hit for doing it makes her less likely to try it again, IMO. I do think it would have been better if he'd simply said, "I don't like being pulled, Grandma" -- but it's hard to say if Grandma would have paid much attention to that.


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First, if gramma and grandson are having an argument about his refusal to help her, and she gets inside with the groceries or whatever it was, leaving grandson outside - well, some would be hanging her out to dry for leaving a "5 year old outside ALONE!" He is being defiant already, so she takes him by the arm and brings him in - which some will hang her out to dry for. The poor woman is damned either way.
But that's not how she explained her actions to the OP. She told the OP she didn't touch her son. I could be a lot more understaning of someone saying, "I pulled him through the door because he wasn't coming, and I didn't think you'd want me to leave him outside" than I could to someone lying and calling my child a liar.

OP, you haven't answered my question -- do you think your son was lying, and your mom was telling the truth when she said she never touched him? Does it seem likely to you that your son would just haul off and start hitting your mother with absolutely no provocation?

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
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#63 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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additional info - My ds does have a habit of hitting.

He also has a very serious "personal space" issue. It happens with hugging too. I have seen him hug AND hit people to the point where people are like WTF? :

I am trying the homeopathic remedy nux vomica for it (just the kind from the store - I may need a stronger dose thouh) but I havent figured out to totally address the issue and correct it from a behavioral standpoint.

And since I lean "Unconditional Parenting" its really really really REALLY hard.

I have realized there needs to be some balence though. UP is a really great resource but completley stand alone, it doesnt really work when your kid is attacking other people with hugs or hitting.
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#64 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 04:19 PM
 
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Yea, yea, he should not have hit her. But was she manhandling him? I mean, really? If so, more power to him. That's called self-defense. Shame on her, I mean really! If you could hear what was going on, then she COULD have called to you that she needed help. Really, shame on her!
I'm sorry...were you there? How do you know she manhandled him? The OP did not know and you seem to be taking a major leap. Just a thought.
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#65 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm sorry...were you there? How do you know she manhandled him? The OP did not know and you seem to be taking a major leap. Just a thought.

I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.



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#66 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 04:40 PM
 
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I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.



I feel you. My mom manhandled me too as a child, but would NEVER do that to my kids. KWIM? She thinks the sun rises and sets with them. Now she has said that they were acting badly but that was it. Does your ds have some anger issues?
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#67 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 04:49 PM
 
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I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.



Oh. Well in that case it sounds like he might have been hitting your mom for no reason, and might have been lying when he said she dragged him in.

But it's also possible that he might have been telling the truth, since you say your mom manhandled you as a child. What about your mom's honesty? Have you ever known her to lie to you?

If your mom's a totally honest person, and your son habitually lies, then it's obviously quite different from how I saw it. It sounds like you're taking steps to uncover why your son lies, and why he habitually hits people for no reason.

At this point, I think the best thing to do is keep searching for the underlying reasons, and doubtless others who've dealt with similar stuff can give you better advice than I can.

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
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#68 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 04:54 PM
 
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#69 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 05:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by transformed View Post
I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.



It sounds like this runs a lot deeper than weather or not he should/shouldn't have did or did not open the door this one time.. Or weather she this one time manhandled him or not. Sounds like breakdowns on both sides that run deeper than this incident.

Deanna

Wife to DH since August 01 mom to a bubbly girl October 2002 and our newest gal March 2010
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#70 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Does your ds have some anger issues?
Yeah.
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#71 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 10:05 PM
 
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Yes a child should open the door for someone (especially if asked).

The adult should never call a child a name but the fact that she was being physically attacked could have triggered this response.

The child should never, under any circumstance hit another person. He needs to be held accountable for hitting her.
I do agree with this. Anyone adult or child should open a door someone when asked if the other person cannot. I would expect a five year old to do this. Also 5 is more then old enough not to hit. Grandma could have been nicer though if she is like my mom she probably was appalled and did not know what else to do.
What ended up happening?
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#72 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 10:29 PM
 
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I have been drilling the kids about please and thank you for the last 3 weeks.
This made me smile because I read the first post and thought that he must be learning his manners and she didn't say 'Please!' I must be on the same wavelength as your son ;-)

I'm not sure how their normal relationship is when nobody else is around, but I was a very sensitive kid and the attitude and mood of people around me severely changed my behavior. As a matter of fact, it went on like that until I was well into my 40s when I realized why I would "outside myself" sometimes.

So, in addition to all the great logical advice I read on the 1st page (sorry, couldn't read all 4 pages), I'm going to add that sometimes there's a lot more simmering underneath than what appears on top.

Personally, I wouldn't ask for either of them to apologize unless it came naturally. I would tell my mom that I was sorry for any stress she might of experienced, and I would see it as a good teaching opportunity to show my son that he's smart enough to act better than adults when you're not around.

YMMV,
/kolleen
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#73 of 97 Old 01-15-2009, 11:14 PM
 
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I have NO way of knowing if she manhandled him.
She normally wouldnt ask him to open the door if she could do it herself.
She had a habit of manhandling ME as a child.
He lies.
He hits my mom for no reason whatsoever and tells her he hates her.



My DS is a reformed hitter, but still struggles with impulse control and emotional regulation. My son has some mild SN. Have you had your child evaluated? At 5, random hitting and violent speech is really out of line - not that it doesn't happen, but it needs to have consistent response.

In a situation like you've outlined, I'd...

1. First, I'd firmly take him if he needed help moving himself, or invite him to join me, on the bottom step until he had regained self-control.

2. I'd have something like the following conversation.
me: Son, I understand you and Grandma had a falling out.
son: Yes...<insert long, self-serving, woe-is-me explanation>
me: You sound very upset about this. I'm sorry you're feeling so badly. I'd like to talk about what happened in the beginning. Grandma was coming in with a lot of heavy bags and her hands were full. She needed help with the door because her hands were full with all the bags.
son: Yes, but....
me: ok, please let me finish. I have a question for you. How do you think Grandma felt when she had all those heavy bags, and her hands were full, and she asked you for help, and you said no?
son: bad.
me: yeah, I think she probably felt bad, and maybe hurt, and maybe frustrated.
son: yeah
me: So imagine you were caring all the bags, and needed help, and asked for help, and the person you asked refused? How would you feel?
son: I'd be mad! And sad!
me: yeah, I bet. Do you think you should have helped your grandma, because she needed help?
son: she didn't say please!!
me: I know, and that really bothered you, didn't it?
son: yeah, so I hit her, because it's not fair that she told me to open the door and didn't say please! we're supposed to say please!
me: you know, manners like saying please are important, but so is helping someone who needs help. Her forgetting to say please didn't change that she needed help, or that you were there and should have helped her because she needed it.
me: so, to Grandma, she needed help with the door while carrying all of the heavy bags, she forgot to say please, and you hit her a bunch of times. Phew! She had quite the time, didn't she? How do you think she's feeling?
son: baaaad. (this is usually where he'd get it and hang his little head)
me: are you allowed to hit?
son: no.
me: what can you do instead of hitting?
son: use my words or get help.
me: right. So right now, you're feeling badly because you hurt grandma and you two aren't getting along. What do you think you can do to make it right?
son: apologize for not helping her and hitting her.
me: that sounds like a great idea. can you think of anything else?
son: i can help her put the groceries away.
me: that sounds like a great idea.

We'd then hold hands to the kitchen to talk with Grandma. This really worked for us, as we broke down what happened, teased out the "facts," talked about how the various players felt, and practiced perspective taking.

Mom to a teenager and a middle schooler.

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#74 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 12:42 AM
 
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My DS is a reformed hitter, but still struggles with impulse control and emotional regulation. My son has some mild SN. Have you had your child evaluated? At 5, random hitting and violent speech is really out of line - not that it doesn't happen, but it needs to have consistent response..

As a voice of experience, ita. A 5 yo should not be hitting on a regular basis. It is a red flag that something is off. It probably isn't something huge, but whatever it is needs to be addressed because the child is having a hard time. The hitting is evidence of his struggle. It may be a SN, or it may be an environmental issue (does Grandma live with you? If so, is it stressful for the family?). For my dd, who hit until she turned 7 (sigh), it was anxiety. Things got much better for her, and us, once we got her anxiety under control, and the hitting simply disappeared....
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#75 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 09:29 AM
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I just wanted to say that I feel really bad for your Mom. How should shse deal with this child. Who hits her on a regular basis and tells her he hates her.

I felt like she was getting a raw deal when I initially read your post, but your last couple of posts have sealed it.

Your ds is nasty to her. I bet she wasn't calling him a name as much as stating a fact that he was nasty to her.

Honestly, it sounds like you were spinning this to make your mom look bad and protect your son. I'm sure you weren't doing it on purpose. But based on the way the information is coming out (halted and slow), it does seem like you aren't/weren't giving the whole picture.

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#76 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 10:38 AM
 
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Yeah, it sounds like your ds has *some* issue that needs to be resolved. Is there any stress in his life that could be causing this? Food intolerances?
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#77 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 11:01 AM
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I think they were both wrong in this situation. Hitting should never be acceptable, nor should name calling. You CAN tell your mom that she should not call your son names. As for your son, Tell him how to bettle handle the situation in the future and what the consequence will be if he does not.

The way apologies work in my home is i suggest them with a reason why its good to apologize. In that scenario I would say to my son "I know you love your grandmother and wouldn't want to hurt her. You were upset by how she treated you and only wanted her to say please. Remember that not everyone will always use their manners, even though they should. You can do the right thing and be polite even when others are not. Or you can remind her next time to say please. As for you, the right thing to do would be to apologize. We apologize to keep our relationships good, and show people we care about that we did not mean to hurt or upset them. Even when you think the other person should apologize too, you can still do the right thing even if they don't." I would also talk to your mom though and let her know you think they BOTH owe eachother an apology.
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#78 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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As a voice of experience, ita. A 5 yo should not be hitting on a regular basis. It is a red flag that something is off. It probably isn't something huge, but whatever it is needs to be addressed because the child is having a hard time. The hitting is evidence of his struggle. It may be a SN, or it may be an environmental issue (does Grandma live with you? If so, is it stressful for the family?). For my dd, who hit until she turned 7 (sigh), it was anxiety. Things got much better for her, and us, once we got her anxiety under control, and the hitting simply disappeared....
We have had a REALLY stressful last year. He has seen my dh hit a wall twice. (DH suffering from depression and just general stresses) And for a while dh and I were getting in really innapropriate fights in front of the kids, and he has witnessed me being so depressed I couldnt stop crying for 3 weeks.

Everyone says I cant make excuses for him but, really, the kid has been down the road and back again.

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I just wanted to say that I feel really bad for your Mom. How should shse deal with this child. Who hits her on a regular basis and tells her he hates her.
I have a hard time feeling bad for her because she is so nasty to everyone around her all day, every day.

She needs to lead by example instead she normally acts younger than my 5 yr old.

(I have actually HEARD her say to my dad - "Can you ask grandson to flush the toilet?" Because he did something she didnt like and she needed to make a request of him.)

I mean, who does that? :
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#79 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 11:40 AM
 
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my mom will not apologize. she is never wroing. But I will make my ds apologize even though I hate forced apologys. (They always sound fake IMO.)
NO offense - but if she cant apologize for how she talked to him - then maybe she needs to not be about any "nasty kids"

IMNSHO - she was just in the wrong for her language as your son was for hitting... and as an adult - even more so. She should KNOW better then to talk to another person (child or adult) like that.

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#80 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 11:48 AM
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We have had a REALLY stressful last year. He has seen my dh hit a wall twice. (DH suffering from depression and just general stresses) And for a while dh and I were getting in really innapropriate fights in front of the kids, and he has witnessed me being so depressed I couldnt stop crying for 3 weeks.

Everyone says I cant make excuses for him but, really, the kid has been down the road and back again.

So then all the adults in his life should step up to the plate. Sounds like he is parroting back what he sees......
As far as making excuses for him - I think there is probably a middle road. He might really need you in his corner. But the behavior could be getting out of control. Is he the oldest?


Quote:

I have a hard time feeling bad for her because she is so nasty to everyone around her all day, every day.

She needs to lead by example instead she normally acts younger than my 5 yr old.

(I have actually HEARD her say to my dad - "Can you ask grandson to flush the toilet?" Because he did something she didnt like and she needed to make a request of him.)

I mean, who does that? :
Yeah - that's pretty immature. Again, sounds like he is just parroting back to her what he hears.

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#81 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 12:14 PM
 
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Do you think your overwhelmed feeling will be solved by them saying "please" when they make their demands, and "thank you" when you fulfill them?
This is slightly OT, but I just want to say that for me it makes a tremendous difference. I have no trouble doing a zillion things if asked nicely, but if someone is barking orders at me, I get really annoyed. My daughter is nearly 3 years old, and I recently have been working a lot on please and thank you and "asking nicely." I told her that people would much rather do things for her if she asks nicely. Sometimes she still barks an order "OPEN DOOR MAMA!", but when I remind her to ask nicely, she calms down and asks "Peas mama open door peas?" and then I open the door.

In our house, this comes from my husband being a stay at home dad and not "hearing" the first few requests. So dd rapidly developed a habit of screaming/demanding what she wanted. "MILK DADDY!" etc. Because he tended not to hear her (how he can tune her out I will never know) until she reached that level. I remind him about it but he still does it a lot (arrgh). However, she's doing a lot more asking and saying please/thank you than she was before I started working on it.

I think a child (or anyone) asking nicely for something, even if it's lots of requests, is far less stressful than one who is ordering you about or being rude/demanding in the manner of the request. Please and thank you are not absolutely necessary (you could say, "I'd really like some grapes. Could I have some grapes, mom?" and that would still be asking nicely), but for a young child they're part of the equation and it doesn't hurt to learn.
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#82 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So then all the adults in his life should step up to the plate. Sounds like he is parroting back what he sees......
As far as making excuses for him - I think there is probably a middle road. He might really need you in his corner. But the behavior could be getting out of control. Is he the oldest?




Yeah - that's pretty immature. Again, sounds like he is just parroting back to her what he hears.
he totally is parroting. and yes we should. he is the oldest.
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#83 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 01:55 PM
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he totally is parroting. and yes we should. he is the oldest.
Then you and he both have my sympathy. My oldest is a boy. The oldest has it hard. Especially if they are a boy. My son is now (almost) 15. And he is one who thinks outside the box. He is just not the sort of kid who automatically gives respect. For a long time, I was embarrassed by that. I am a southern girl and was raised with the whole 'Yes Ma'am' idea. You know - don't speak unless you are spoken to....

My son comes across as rude and arrogant when in reality he is the sweetest, most loving kid. He snuggles with me every night.

My point is, when you combine his intelligence, make up and the crap that was happening around the house when he was in kindergarten.... Quite honestly, we were setting him up for failure.



He doesn't sound like the sort of kid who listens when you say no hitting. No yelling. Say please. He needs to see everyone else doing that. Not all kids are like that.

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#84 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 03:16 PM
 
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additional info - My ds does have a habit of hitting.

And since I lean "Unconditional Parenting" its really really really REALLY hard.

I have realized there needs to be some balence though. UP is a really great resource but completley stand alone, it doesnt really work when your kid is attacking other people with hugs or hitting.
My brother was a hitter too. By the time he was six, both our parents were dead. So he had an awful lot of anger and confusion about his world. Therapy helped a LOT. Happy to tell you that he is the most lovely adult ever - funny and responsible, with friends and family who adore him, his own house, his own business, took flowers to our gramma every time we visited, etc.

I don't know much about UP - what would it say you'd do if your child was hitting someone? Sounds like whatever that is isn't working for you. I don't think it is wrong to gently remove the child from the situation until he calms down.

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We have had a REALLY stressful last year.

I have actually HEARD her say to my dad - "Can you ask grandson to flush the toilet?" Because he did something she didnt like and she needed to make a request of him.)
I'm sorry your family had a stressful year. I do think it explains some choices your son makes. Of course it affects him. I hope things are improving for all of you.

I'm not clear on the flush example. I would just flush it myself if I found the toilet unflushed - but if it were a habit, I'd ask the person to flush it. This actually happened at the school where I work. First few times I went in to the toilet unflushed, I just flushed it. Third time I waited til the next class meeting and asked the kids to be sure they flushed. 'Cause that is just icky...
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#85 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 03:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by transformed View Post

(I have actually HEARD her say to my dad - "Can you ask grandson to flush the toilet?" Because he did something she didnt like and she needed to make a request of him.)

I mean, who does that? :
Someone who knows that if she makes the request herself to the grandson that it will not be complied with?
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#86 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 03:55 PM
 
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I just wanted to say that I feel really bad for your Mom. How should shse deal with this child. Who hits her on a regular basis and tells her he hates her.

I felt like she was getting a raw deal when I initially read your post, but your last couple of posts have sealed it.

Your ds is nasty to her. I bet she wasn't calling him a name as much as stating a fact that he was nasty to her.

Honestly, it sounds like you were spinning this to make your mom look bad and protect your son. I'm sure you weren't doing it on purpose. But based on the way the information is coming out (halted and slow), it does seem like you aren't/weren't giving the whole picture.
This is just what I was trying to say. But you said it more helpfully.

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#87 of 97 Old 01-16-2009, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My brother was a hitter too. By the time he was six, both our parents were dead. So he had an awful lot of anger and confusion about his world. Therapy helped a LOT. Happy to tell you that he is the most lovely adult ever - funny and responsible, with friends and family who adore him, his own house, his own business, took flowers to our gramma every time we visited, etc.

I don't know much about UP - what would it say you'd do if your child was hitting someone? Sounds like whatever that is isn't working for you. I don't think it is wrong to gently remove the child from the situation until he calms down.


I'm sorry your family had a stressful year. I do think it explains some choices your son makes. Of course it affects him. I hope things are improving for all of you.

I'm not clear on the flush example. I would just flush it myself if I found the toilet unflushed - but if it were a habit, I'd ask the person to flush it. This actually happened at the school where I work. First few times I went in to the toilet unflushed, I just flushed it. Third time I waited til the next class meeting and asked the kids to be sure they flushed. 'Cause that is just icky...
Its just another thing we are working on. He is a little boy who is always eager to get back to the action and often forgets to flush. I dont have as much of a problem with it as others- we all have different tolerance of things.

It seems to resolve itself more quickly when we talk about it.

I am picking up the pieces of being depressed for his whole life. (Bipolar actually.) I feel that my kids have not had an ideal situation - and I havent been the mama I wanted to be. But there is so much to look forward to now that I am taking care of myself. :

I still have some issues, and he does, and everyone in our family has little quirks, but maybe we can use them as strengths instead of weakness.

I would really like to get him evaluated for SN but I dont really know where to go for it - (We homeschool) Or what to say. and I am just learning how to accomplish goals. (Being biplolar made it nearly impossioble for me to actually get anything DONE.)
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#88 of 97 Old 01-17-2009, 09:48 AM
 
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Yea, yea, he should not have hit her. But was she manhandling him? I mean, really? If so, more power to him. That's called self-defense. Shame on her, I mean really! If you could hear what was going on, then she COULD have called to you that she needed help. Really, shame on her!

So, now you know another little area of politeness your child needs help learning, but she sure has set things off on the wrong foot for you. UGH!

One of my children is a bit spacy, and even at 9, might stare blankly at you for a few seconds before he comprehended that you asked him something, and then another few seconds before it clicked that you asked him to open the door. Yes, he knows to open doors for people, but if he's reading or watching a bird, then he just might not hear you at first. Another child cannot stand being put on the spot and at 5, she was uncertain of her ability to open particular doors, and in the situation you describe, I can see her refusing because she would have been afraid of failing at the task. Yes, we're working on this one, too, and two years later, she still might not open the door, but she will offer to hold something while you open it. My third, I won't count because she's still quite little.

My point is, without knowing your child, I can immediately see reasons why a child this age would refuse. And manhandling anyone is no way to teach them something or win cooperation. I see the point of how your son made a mistake, but he's FIVE. I assume your mother is older?
Totally agree with this post!!
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#89 of 97 Old 01-17-2009, 09:52 AM
 
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I'm going to go waaaaay out on a limb and say I completely disagree with everyone here on the door opening.

Yes, it is polite to hold a door when someone asks you to. But it is not a punishable offense if it does not happen.

I absolutely do NOT expect my children to "say how high when I say jump."
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Yep. I agree.
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#90 of 97 Old 01-17-2009, 09:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lab View Post
I just wanted to say that I feel really bad for your Mom. How should shse deal with this child. Who hits her on a regular basis and tells her he hates her.

I felt like she was getting a raw deal when I initially read your post, but your last couple of posts have sealed it.

Your ds is nasty to her. I bet she wasn't calling him a name as much as stating a fact that he was nasty to her.

Honestly, it sounds like you were spinning this to make your mom look bad and protect your son. I'm sure you weren't doing it on purpose. But based on the way the information is coming out (halted and slow), it does seem like you aren't/weren't giving the whole picture.
I feel exactly the opposite. DS is probably nasty to the grandmother because the grandmother doesn't treat him with respect and so he reciprocates. The grandmother manhandled the mother of this boy while she was growing up, so she was probably doing the same thing to the son. If the boy has space issues, perhaps the grandmother should respect that. I would be inclined to believe the boy and not the grandmother. I mean, if anyone manhandled my son, grandmother or otherwise, I think I would lash out at them too.
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