Do you prefer a family Hierarchy or Consensuality? Updated! - Page 21 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: Family Dynamics: Hierarchy or Consensuality?
Definite hierarchy with rules, strict structure; decisions made on behalf of children. 17 2.81%
Hierarchy with guidelines, routine, soft structure; most decisions made for children. 176 29.14%
Consensual family; decisions round table, children are self determining; few or no rules. 56 9.27%
Mostly Consensual; guidelines, choice where possible, highly structured 61 10.10%
Combo; children know their place in hierarchy but have as much freedom as poss within that structure 277 45.86%
I don't know what you are talking about. 17 2.81%
Voters: 604. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-19-2009, 09:33 PM
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We had a Screaming Tree when Rain was about that age. It was just a tree, near the back of our yard, but I designated it as such and went out and screamed at it a few times, and the idea sort of caught on... actually, for a few days there was a whole lot of screaming at the tree, but after a bit the screaming went back to the usual levels and I would just that we go out to the tree when she was screaming, and usually she'd come. Our house was tiny and our yard was big and fenced, so outside worked better for us...

For Rain it was more just screaming because she liked to scream... if it's more about toys, then maybe you could get your son some dog toys of his own, and keep the dog away from his? I'm not sure how new your puppy is, but I generally did the leashing the dog to me thing for a week or two with new dogs, and also crating when I couldn't supervise closely.

 
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Screaming tree!! I love it. Thank you. I'll let you know how it goes.

I think Ci just likes to scream, too. No specific reason or emotion. The toys thing was a side issue where I'm having trouble taking things from him consensually and it seems I'm doing it much more often now because of the dog. We had boxes on the floor with Cian's toys because he can't reach any higher, and most of his toys have now been "compromised", and I'm having a big toss out. Which turned out to be a good thing. But we still have this toy sharing thing going on b/w them, so I've laid a law down (heh, in this house that's a joke, but I do try) that when Ci is outside, dog toys must be pulled in and put up high, so he can't grab them and stick them in his mouth. There's that "must" thing, but I had to, I can't risk it. Sigh. Inside (pup is a toy poodle, inside dog) is more difficult because the neither dog nor Ci knows which toys are his, and basically keeping them apart inside is crazy town. They've even taken to stealing from each other, straight out of each other's mouths.

*shudder*

So I feel Iike I'm walking around all day barking orders, being barked at and making a huge toy discard pile of compromised toys... it's just not a "flowy" as it usually is here.

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Old 04-19-2009, 10:26 PM
 
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They've even taken to stealing from each other, straight out of each other's mouths.

*shudder*
.
Ok...I'm a dog person....and even I can see how this is gross....but is it really dangerous? I mean, my ds ate to kibble and played in the dog water (and surely got some in his mouth, even if just off his hands)....the dogs kiss baby right on the mouth....and the dogs have been known to steal a lick off an ice cream cone (which still gets eaten).

What if you keep a rag for wiping the toys when they go from dog-to-baby, instead of taking them? You might have 2 rags, so that he could participate in wiping, too. He might actually like that, and soon learn to bring toys to be wiped.

About the screeching (although I love the screaming tree idea), what happens if you "answer" back something curious, but less irritating? Would he mimic? Maybe a low grunt
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:14 AM
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Is it a myth that (even though one wouldn't think so) dogs mouths are actually much cleaner then human mouths? LOL at the thought that we need protect the dog from the child's saliva and not the other way around!

Lots of great suggestions on the subject! We are very relaxed about germs - maybe too much so? so I'm not the person to give advice on this!

Okay so I looked up the dog thing, and it turns our their mouths aren't cleaner - but aren't harmful either:

"Becker says many of the bacteria in the mouth of a dog are species specific, so it won't harm its owner. "

Source: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Health/story?id=1213870

I can see why someone wouldnt want their dog and kids to share toys though! I certainly prefer my children don't eat the cat food either!
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:18 AM
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as for the screeching, have you explored why it angers you so much? why it's annoying, etc?

My kids are very loud too, it doesn't bother me, but there are OTHER things they do that bother me (like I can go instantly from calm to angry if something they do, even unintentionally, physically hurts me) but it helps me to work on why I am this way

Just the same, I think its great you are looking for a solution. Love the screaming tree idea! I know some people who have certain rooms in the house for screaming. MY kids are loud because I am... I has wondered if they would be more soft spoken if I started talking more quietly myself... kids love to explore their voice and pitch though so it sounds like that is more the case with your child.

Oh, for what its worth, my oldest is a "screecher" just for fun. Drives my husband batty
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:54 AM
 
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Just yesterday I heard the story of a 6 yo hit and killed a couple years back in the neighborhood I was visiting (it came up when I commented on the signs saying "We love our children--please drive slowly!" )

No parenting strategy can 100% insulate our dc from horrible accidents (like being hit by a car). It makes us feel better to attribute the accident to things that we can control (parenting, for example). But the brutal truth is, sometimes bad things just happen
You are right but a child who has been taught not to do something usually will hesitate long enough for a vigilant parent to head her off. A child who has learned that every situation, regardless of what was decided last time, has less of a chance of hesitating. Ime and imo in raising kids. Joy, when told not to go into the street, would say ok and play where directed. Erica just wouldn't regardless of what solution was decided on last time. She didn't recognize precedent. Every single time it came up, the discussion and negotiating would start all over again. With Angela, every i had to be dotted and every t must be crossed in any negotiation. The end result read like a legal contract but she would abide by it. And then there is Dylan who will agree with the solution and then just do what he wanted to in the first place. 4 kids and 4 different results from the same situation.

I never meant to imply that CL doesn't work. I agree that discussion and negotiation are 2 tools in the parent's arsenal of techniques and ideas. I don't agree that it will work for all children, in all situations, all the time. No child rearing theory will. There will be times when the parent has to step in and be the parent. The authority ultimately rests with the parents.

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Old 04-20-2009, 01:14 AM
 
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We live in south florida and none of us ever where hats outside. Sunscreen would be an option, but to be honest I frequently forget to put any on and though we are all fair skinned we never burn our heads lol.
Not to nitpick but has any of your children ever had heat exhaustion? Erica and Angela have low body temperatures. Their average resting temp is around 95 degrees; not 98.6. What wouldn't have the school call home for is necessary for them. A 100 degree fever for them is the same as 103 fever for a child who's normal temp is 98.6. They also don't sweat much to cool off and are both very fair, with ash blond hair and light blue eyes. They don't tan at all, only turn red and blister. Sunscreen and hats were necessary and not options. Also I looked to the long view. Skin cancer and sun damage isn't pretty as women age. And can't be reversed.

Chris--extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, babywearing, co-sleeping, APing, CLW, homeschooling before any of this was a trend mom to Joy (1/78), Erica (8/80), Angela (9/84), Dylan (2/98)
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:18 AM
 
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Eek gads. Who prosecuted him? Was he speeding or something? Tried for what, driving? Just ridiculous. My brother never even considered suing the driver. The poor girl handed in her license voluntarily. She came to the funeral and sat at the back of the church. I was a wreck emotionally at the time so all this only sank in much later. Apparently she got her license again many years later. We all felt badly for her. It messed her up.
I was 16 at the time. The place where my neighbor hit the child was a down hill blind curve. I don't know all the details. I'd have to ask my mom if she remembers. I do remember that it went to trial. But he wasn't sitting in jail while waiting trial. And he was acquitted.

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Old 04-20-2009, 02:05 AM
 
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This would be a case where I would meet the underlying need. start with empathizing - which sometimes resolve the issue and then they are fine not being on the counter. sometimes they still have a need for adventure, we find a way to meet that need.
I snipped it to shorten the length of this post, but I wanted to thank you, SGM for your explaination of Cl in action.
I think I am one of those who has confused CL with TCS, only hadn't really realized it until I saw the list of books (most of which I have, lol).

This thread has definitely given me some things to think about, so thanks for that!

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Old 04-20-2009, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Not to nitpick but has any of your children ever had heat exhaustion? Erica and Angela have low body temperatures. Their average resting temp is around 95 degrees; not 98.6.
I can't walk past this and not comment. I'd love to get my hands on this! Has your child got any blood results for thyroid? This kind of thing may turn out to bite them on the butt in adulthood if they don't have it addressed. Don't mean to be a downer, and if you are interested in looking into it further, drop me a line and I'll help you. Chronic low temps are very indicative of thyroid.

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Old 04-20-2009, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok...I'm a dog person....and even I can see how this is gross....but is it really dangerous?
very dangerous. They carry parasites and parasite eggs in their mouth. It isn't just because they lick their butt either, it's just part and parcel of their lot. Snails are the main host for most parasites, but dogs pick them up too due to their interaction with the environment. This is a HUGE bad thing if you know the extent of damage parasites can wreak; they enter other organs, causing systemic problems and damage, it isn't just an intestinal thing as most know it to be.

I didn't really ever want a dog or any animal in my life, because pet owners are exposed to this chronically but I weighed it up against how much children love growing up with a pet and the latter won. I'm an animal lover from way back, but I still would prefer not to have a pet, of any sort. I don't believe in interfering with an animal's natural life either, taking babies from their mothers, forcing them to adapt to our way of life... it's all a bit upsetting but being a mother brings with it some irritating decisions. Ack.

The rumour or whatever it is that they have clean mouths is confused I think with the fact that their saliva can be antiseptic. They lick themselves when cut, and it helps it heal. They will often attempt to lick your wounds, too, and as far as I've heard, it has the same effect.

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Old 04-20-2009, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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as for the screeching, have you explored why it angers you so much? why it's annoying, etc?
Yes, in many different ways. But it really is just too loud. And I'm irritated at it now because I feel powerless against it, it is being forced on me. My daughter also has sensitive ears, so it has many negative consequences in our house.

My best friend tried telling me that her son used to screech. I just rolled my eyes (on the inside ) and listened to her but I knew she had to hear it to understand. She got that chance, and she quickly back peddled, "Uhh, wow.... like, yeah, that's pretty bad... uh, you've gotta do something about that, far out, sheesh... I had no idea."

He may become a singer, cos he can hold a high pitched wail of a note for a solid 30 seconds. It's phenomenal. I believe he is exploring, experimenting with his voice. He means no harm, he's too young to be just an arrogant a$$ about it but still... eek gads, it's gotta go cos I've never experienced anything like it. I might video it and upload it, just to freak ya'll out.

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Chris, yet another nosy poke into your affairs unsolicited... there is an interesting statistic that I'll let you think about. Africans, who live in Africa, have next to no skin cancer. African Americans, however, have some of the highest rates of skin cancer in America. Same skin, same sun. Different lifestyle. The implications of that statistic are rather alarming as to the truth about the skin cancer and sun theory. I'll leave it with you.

On another note, there are some other stats about sunscreen that show that it may not prevent skin cancer, and due to the chems it was made of, may indeed promote it. However, macadamia oil is a sunscreen, and zinc oxide is still a useful sunscreen, and you can find natural ones now that weren't available in the ol' days. If you must use sunscreen, try to find those ones, and avoid DEET and a bunch of the other chemicals they use in sunscreen... they don't help, they make it worse. My daughter is white as snow (she looks alarmingly like snow white with her blue eyes and black hair), and we refuse sunscreen. Here in Australia, it is mandatory to wear hats outside and sunscreen (at schools), but we just tell the teacher my daughter is not to have that crap put on her skin, and they follow our wishes. Hats, I agree are needed, but sunscreen... I challenge idea that with all my might!


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Old 04-20-2009, 09:22 AM
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Not to nitpick but has any of your children ever had heat exhaustion? Erica and Angela have low body temperatures. Their average resting temp is around 95 degrees; not 98.6. What wouldn't have the school call home for is necessary for them. A 100 degree fever for them is the same as 103 fever for a child who's normal temp is 98.6. They also don't sweat much to cool off and are both very fair, with ash blond hair and light blue eyes. They don't tan at all, only turn red and blister. Sunscreen and hats were necessary and not options. Also I looked to the long view. Skin cancer and sun damage isn't pretty as women age. And can't be reversed.
Nope, they never had heat exhaustion! not fun! I find hats make me hotter, personally. We do usually get wet when we are outside in the heat, or stay in the shade, drink water, etc.

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I snipped it to shorten the length of this post, but I wanted to thank you, SGM for your explaination of Cl in action.
I think I am one of those who has confused CL with TCS, only hadn't really realized it until I saw the list of books (most of which I have, lol).

This thread has definitely given me some things to think about, so thanks for that!
glad I helped you, and thank you for being open minded and receptive!

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The rumour or whatever it is that they have clean mouths is confused I think with the fact that their saliva can be antiseptic. They lick themselves when cut, and it helps it heal. They will often attempt to lick your wounds, too, and as far as I've heard, it has the same effect.
yep, I had no idea that was the case until i looked it up last night - I posted a link with that, that said the same think about their mouths helping to heal their wounds.

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My best friend tried telling me that her son used to screech. I just rolled my eyes (on the inside ) and listened to her but I knew she had to hear it to understand. She got that chance, and she quickly back peddled, "Uhh, wow.... like, yeah, that's pretty bad... uh, you've gotta do something about that, far out, sheesh... I had no idea."
Yep when my son does it around other people they are like "wow..." about it too. I don't think I could talk over him if I tried its.so.loud... For my son I think its sensory related. I think he doesn't sound as loud to himself as he sounds to everyone else. He can do it anywhere from an "ahhh" type yell to an indistinguishable screeching sound. Sometimes he adds to this running back and forth through the house or throwing things. Throwing things is what get me, because inevitably they hit me, and pain makes me immediately angry. That's something I'm working on - not that I would let him hurt me, but that I need to not "shut down" so quickly when it happens... I hear ya on the screeching thing, that may be the one thing that I totally understand about your life's struggles. It's intolerable for my husband...
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I was thinking about the screaming, and when it is just DS and I, it doesn't actually bother me much at all, if at all. I long ago learned to tune him out, as bad as that sounds, because he is so high needs he whines or cries a lot. I think my brain automatically did it simply to survive it. I have to hold him pretty much all the time. He is very tactile; touch seems to be his preferred method of interaction and communication, hence why we have such intense mouthing/touching issues at times (like toilets ).

He took to sign language well though; I can tell he isn't going to be a fast talker like DD was, who was speaking in clear whole sentences at 12 months. He hasn't spoken his first word yet, and doesn't seem interested but he has taken to signing to get his immediate needs met. Preference for signing is another indication, to me, of his tactile nature. So I can keep him soothed to the point of invisible if I hold him most of the time (except while shopping, where he's constantly kicking to get down so he can pull things off shelves), but sometimes he has to be down for one reason or another and the motor starts, he moans and whines and throws himself dramatically at things and at my feet. Slightly less than consensual moments, those.

So I think auditory isn't his strong suit. He easily startles when called while he is lost in his own world, feeling stuff. My daughter is strongly auditory however. So she can react poorly to his screeching, but even that doesn't bother me as much as it does when he does it downstairs, where my mother lives. It bothers my brother and my mother, and therefore, I stress.

It has been good to think more deeply about this. Because although it can get bothersome, esp when it is right in my ear, or in an awkward place, I might actually be mostly bothered on behalf of others. Which is something I can work on within myself.

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Old 04-20-2009, 12:27 PM
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thats great! and of course you need to find a solution that is going to respect the needs of others in your house but definitely helps to realize the source of your aggrevation with the screeching. Sounds a lot like my son at that age. Sometimes he is so into things he CANNOT hear me, and other times if you so much as get in his peripheral vision he has a complete meltdown because of being distracted... well I should say this was true 2 years ago, and over time has slowly moved away from this though its still part of who he is he has just learned how to manage his feelings (both physical and emotional) over the years. With my son, its sensory, and while some things bother me, I can understand him because he gets it from me.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:43 PM
 
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I can't walk past this and not comment. I'd love to get my hands on this! Has your child got any blood results for thyroid? This kind of thing may turn out to bite them on the butt in adulthood if they don't have it addressed. Don't mean to be a downer, and if you are interested in looking into it further, drop me a line and I'll help you. Chronic low temps are very indicative of thyroid.
Not when they were kids. But I don't know about now. Both Erica and Angela have been tested for just about everything under the sun, including Lupus, as adults. I'll have to ask them if they have had their thyroid tested. All 3 girls are hypoglycemic. I know that.

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Old 04-20-2009, 03:08 PM
 
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Chris, check out the Adrenal Fatigue thread. It is a precursor to hypothyroid issues developing. The hypoglycemia and low basal temp are symptoms, others are low BP, low cholesterol, napping in the afternoon, "night owls", salt craving, headaches, stress reactions, sleep issues, mood swings, anxiety, fatigue, depression, inattention, forgetfulness, "brain fog", sore joints, etc. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...drenal+fatigue



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Old 04-20-2009, 03:41 PM
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I have been thinking about this thread and the "running in the road" issue. You know, my daughter has run in the road and yes, I forcibly held her back. I thought about why I felt okay doing this - and beyond the whole, "because it could save her life", it is deeper than that for me.

I think people have the ability to choose their reality so long as they are aware of the reality they are choosing. My child has, to my understanding and observation, absolutely zero understanding of actual pain -- beyond a tiny scrape that heals in a day or two. To her, the world is a place where everyone is okay, no one would intentionally hurt you -- so for her to run in the road seems like a good choice to her based on what she knows of the world and of her own mortality.

I am convinced of this. I am convinced she is not trying to choose a painful end of her life or lifelong pain/paralysis. When she was entrusted to me, source said (that which I call God) that I was being trusted with this gift and with it comes a lot of responsibility.

Now, that is not to say that I don't trust my daughter's innate instincts. I do, I just don't trust all of them at this point and time -- based on evidence I have observed. I trust her to know that a hug doesn't feel right, because that is an instant reaction to her. I trust her to know when to sleep, when to eat, what to eat and how much (though there is some external control of what is coming into the home), who to trust, who to hug or not, etc...

However, with things like the running in the road example, no I don't trust an impulsive decision made by someone with what is in the moment, a very specific goal (to get across the street) without the developmental capability to know what could happen if she isn't watching for cars. No amount of discussion from her "trusted adviser" (that would be me ) will get her to that developmental level until she is ready.

So, one could say that I am imposing my coercion on her when I expect her to be more developmentally able than she is. So, it is all how you look at it.

In the meantime, I will err on keeping her alive.

As far as other things, I have no qualms admitting that we occasionally make judgments that benefit the group long term rather than ones that benefit my daughter (or myself, or my husband) in the short term.

There is always a solution, that I agree on. I adamantly disagree that there is not always a mutually agreeable solution in the moment.


The cat in the dryer example I gave earlier. There was no mutually agreeable solution to that in the moment. She wanted to see what would happen if we put the cat in the dryer. Again, developmentally immature in that area. I don't believe she wanted to hurt the cat or believed she could hurt the cat because again, her reality is one which she has not felt any longterm (or as far as I can observe) deep, permanent hurt.

Sure, later we put a stuffed animal in there, discussed other ways to play with the cat, blah blah blah and did find a mutually agreeable solution -- but in the moment, no amount of, "but sweetie peety pie darrrrling.... the cat has a need not to twirl in the dryer and meet an untimely death!!! Can we construct a dryer out of cardboard and she can climb in and we can use our infinate imaginations to put her there instead?" was going to sway her. And, I wasn't trying to sway her. I think it is more insulting to a child to pussyfoot and dance around and say everything *but* what you are really trying to get at, which is, no... cat ain't going in the dryer, sister.

No, in the moment it was a simple, "no... you are not putting the cat in the dryer. End of story."

I think it is unfair to expect more of a child developmentally than they are able or willing to display. My daughter looks to me to validate that someone around here knows what they are doing -- and while I admit that I have a lot to learn, of the two of us, I at least know that cats die in dryers and kids can die in streets so while she gets a vote, I have veto power.

Don't worry, I use it rarely and wisely.
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Old 04-20-2009, 05:18 PM
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I havent seen anyone here refer to stopping a child from running into the street as opposing coercion - everyone seems to be on the same page that you stop the child from running into the street and help them find a safe way to cross the street (of thats what the underlying goal for the child is)... not because they are a child, but because as you said they are unaware of the danger - which I would do the same for an adult who was about to walk into oncoming traffic without realizing it.

What you describe with the cat in dryer thing sounds like she had to accept life's dissapointment and when she was ready was able to move onto a mutually agreeable solution. I don't think any CL mamas here are letting their children put cats int he dryer. Why? because that would not be a mutually agreeable solution - the cat does not consent, and even if the cat did it would be because, as you pointed out, the cat would not understand the reprecussions We trust that above all our children, and our pets, would choose life, and so if they don't realize their choice could result in death then we do help them first, and find the mutually agreeable situation after. I wouldn't qualify this as veto power, for the very reasons you expressed.
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:26 PM
 
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Except for the bipolar, all of Erica's symptoms have been resolved by growing up out of childhood. And that is being successfully treated with Prozac. As for the cholesterol, despite being a vegetarian (and not overweight by any stretch of the imagination) for the past 14 years, her's is high. It's genetic. She gets it from both sides of the family. Her thyroid was tested a couple of years ago for both hypo and hyper. Thyroid issues also run in the family.

Chris--extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, babywearing, co-sleeping, APing, CLW, homeschooling before any of this was a trend mom to Joy (1/78), Erica (8/80), Angela (9/84), Dylan (2/98)
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I havent seen anyone here refer to stopping a child from running into the street as opposing coercion - everyone seems to be on the same page that you stop the child from running into the street and help them find a safe way to cross the street (of thats what the underlying goal for the child is)... not because they are a child, but because as you said they are unaware of the danger - which I would do the same for an adult who was about to walk into oncoming traffic without realizing it.
Preventing an accident is only considered interfering in a person's life path by some obscure tiny minority. But accidents are one thing.

Some would actually allow the full autonomy of their child, and I fear saying this but: regardless of age. This was one of the things I was trying to clear up with my questions, and why I needed other voices weighing in. It needed to be said that some would let their child negotiate on road play.

The fact that so many keep repeating that no one would makes me wonder how much they're subconsciously filtering to stay within their comfort zone. Time to look at it, because ultimate CL is actually about ultimate self determination.

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Originally Posted by Pat
Trying to think if we've ever "played on a highway"... I suspect we'd agree and find a time when it were safe to do so.
And if there was no such time, such as the Great Western Highway in Sydney where many kids play and are killed on the road? There is always a sticky exception. I've yet to meet a rule without an exception, including laws of science. They can all be broken given the right conditions. Oh, except for the law of CL that states unequivocally "There is always a consensual solution".

It seems that if they have a 10 month old who can judge the street as safe by explanations and seeing big scary cars go by then apparently all of us have said 10 month olds. My son was walking at 9 months. I kept him away from the road because the first time we attempted a stroll around the block he kept going straight to the road.

I daresay no one is going to disagree that a 9 month old is not developmentally ready to make any kind of decision about the road, big scary cars or not. It is a mere concept to them, big shiny things going fast does not = potentially could get hit and die. What is “hit” to a baby? What is “die”? What is “hurt” for that matter? So I impose my will, if we find ourselves near a road. There is apparently a consensual solution instead of this according to the relentless mantra of CL with the “always have consensual solutions”. Think about it, please. HOW can there be a consensual solution when we are dealing with a baby, who can walk, who wants to walk onto the road? Other than to avoid the road entirely.

Using this logic, which as adults we can now enjoy, if we agree that a baby cannot be expected to make such a decision, for starters that negates the “trust” factor, because trusting the baby didn't keep him from the road. I honestly really believed his innate instincts would keep him from going towards the road. I made a mistake, but I didn't make it in a vacuum. I made it because of advice given from parenting philosophies and some are dangerous for our culture.

So if we agree a 9 month old cannot make sound judgment, then at what point does this sound judgment kick in? At what age do we start to allow more self determination based on said sound judgment? In the cities some people live, the biological imprints we have may not be the life saving ones they are in the bush. And if there IS this difference between a 9 month old and a 7 year old, then shouldn't that be stated when we say things like "we all have a right to self determination"?

At 9 months old, it is pure and simple exploration of his environment to walk toward the road, it is the underlying need AND the surface need.

So it might help to keep in mind that some would have to allow their child to play on the highway if the child insisted because if there was no negotiating out of it and the parent was intent on mutual agreements, then they have to let them and "find a way to live with it" (which is apparently the "mutual" part of the agreement), and perhaps they could examine their deep inner reasons as to why it bothers them that their child is playing on the highway. <--- those winks are SO irritating, aren't they?


Quote:
And I've never met a child who wanted to play on a busy highway.
Quote:
We live together without the struggles others describe.
I think these kinds of statements show why Pat and others find it so hard to understand where we're coming from. They just haven't had the experiences. They can't imagine being without consensual options because it hasn't happened to them.


Quote:
I think it is more insulting to a child to pussyfoot and dance around and say everything *but* what you are really trying to get at, which is, no... cat ain't going in the dryer, sister.
Quote:
My daughter looks to me to validate that someone around here knows what they are doing -- and while I admit that I have a lot to learn, of the two of us, I at least know that cats die in dryers and kids can die in streets so while she gets a vote, I have veto power.
I've been trying to say things like this for about 300 posts.

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:03 PM
 
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Ds got a plastic (made in China) 'toy' revolver, including loader AND 'bullets'. It's the worst nightmare for us parents to see our sons handle such 'toy'. As much as I want to be CL with my sons. Yes, they know how to play toy guns. They didn't learn from our home. We have a philosophy and morality we'd like to follow as a family, and we are in the process of modelling and our children in the process of learning. So I made it clear that for the sake of his birthday party happiness, he could 'play' with it then and there but that I couldn't allow it to be around ('no handsize toy weapons in our house' is a rule) afterward. We let him handle the 'gun' but immediately removed the bullets (tiny plastic balls) because they could cause harm. I asked to pls not direct at others, definitely not faces, and why. At some point neigbour's kid held the 'weapon' to my sons head and said 'I'll shoot your head' (or sth similar), they think it's so funny, also he managed to find the bullets and shoot some and I got one shot at me and it was very unpleasant. A reminder of how not done and horrible I find such things. It's been on the top of the cupboard since then and I just removed it to another hiding place in the hope ds will never remember and ask for it again. What do I do when he DOES remember and want it? I so do not want him to have it. WHY do other people want my son(s) or their own children to have this crap??
I also saw (how hypocrite!) a warning in small print on the 'toy' never to aim and shoot at people or animals. Well. Yeah.
My chidren play fighting, shooting, war game at times in our home as active 'imaginary play'. Some they got from cartoons, most gestures and accompanying sounds and behaviours from peers. I do not like this but can't prevent it. What I can do is prevent the rubbish equipment (looking like real and sometimes even possibly hazardous) to enter our home. In other homes we can't prevent our children not playing with those, if they want to play it there, they will be able to fulfill that need, how much I personally despise it. At home water guns is as far as they can get, or tiny playmobil swords. And I tell them about my not liking weapons, weapon/violent/war play, why, what harm they can cause, that I'd rather look at positive models.
And the 'solution' to just let my kid play with that particular toy, or similar, cannot be consensual to me. I can't let go of the stress it causes in me, it goes against what I feel as natural. That may be 'conflict play' but the way it often turns out is disturbning to me.
As a note: ds2 was upset a the bd that the gun wasn't his present. He was at the verge of tatruming. Dh's solution was (for the sake of ds's mood and the party) to get another such toy gun from the market , it was the 'best' idea he 'could come up with'. I was double horrşfied by then. I saşd ds2 would be perfectly happy yto just handle the (empty) flashy spacy squirt 'gun' instead. And see, he was.I feel the need for us parents to guide on some matters, based on moral/idealistic/lifestyle choices (relating peace, environment, food, health, safety, ...).


Yes, I see CL as an ideal. One I know I'll never intend to follow or pursue for a full 100 percent. Additionally, I do have other ideals which I find more important to try and pass on to my children than every single thing being a full CL situation or being solved as such, and I do not have any 'scrupules' to act upon this personal moral rather than on the theory of CL.

Me:,loving HB,two active sons of 3 & 5,1 cat, nature lover,,extbf,occ,SAHM, multicultural/lingual family,+/-cl, :become a better parent/person by not expecting to be the perfect parent/person
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:03 AM
 
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I think these kinds of statements show why Pat and others find it so hard to understand where we're coming from. They just haven't had the experiences. They can't imagine being without consensual options because it hasn't happened to them.
What I "hear" is they don't have those experiences because of the way they practice CL. Am I wrong?


One thing I think I get, though, is that avoiding saying "no cats in the dryer" may work (for some kids) like I avoid saying to ds "Don't spill your water". That always results in spilled water, lol, when saying "keep the water in your glass" usually keeps the water in the glass. Any relationship there?
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:24 AM
 
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One thing I think I get, though, is that avoiding saying "no cats in the dryer" may work (for some kids) like I avoid saying to ds "Don't spill your water". That always results in spilled water, lol, when saying "keep the water in your glass" usually keeps the water in the glass. Any relationship there?
: Yes, the LoA piece.


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Old 04-22-2009, 08:55 AM
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What I "hear" is they don't have those experiences because of the way they practice CL. Am I wrong?
I think this is true for some, children are seeking how they CAN control themselves. When they feel like they can "make the call" about things that are important to them they aren't seeking to do so about things that arent important to them. In other words, the child doesn't want to run in the street just because, but they feel at peace knowing that if they really did want some kind of on the road experience that a solution would be found. If I really thought ym child wanted to do something dangerous just because thats what they wanted to do and for no "real reason" I would think the real reason must be they are feeling out of control of their lives for some reason, and looking for a way to "take back" that control. I don't know how well I'm explaining this....
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:01 PM
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: Yes, the LoA piece.


Pat
I thought LOA was all about where your vibration was at? About how you are "feeling" not about what you were saying? I thought that the dogma was drilled into its followers that you could say "keep the water in the glass" all day long but if your ~~~vibration~~~ was more in line with saying "try not to spill the water" or whatever, that would be more effective.

My vibration feels better saying a simple, "No, cat's don't belong in dryers", rather than pussyfooting (pun intended) forever about how the cat isn't aligned with that reality and whatnot. DD is more aligned when I use simple honesty and reason rather than the "right" and valued terminology from the ideology I have adopted.

Well, LOA like everything, has its place. Still, a total dogma imo. How does a strict set of 'rules' (such as in LOA and CL) add up to more freedom? It is the same as any other dogma. A set of rules one must adopt in order to do it "correctly".

When you assume Pat, that I am not using LOA when interacting with my daughter and in my life -- to imply a "piece" is missing, don't you then project your own reality onto mine and make a set of assumptions based on the own agreements you've made in your life?

You know, I love the bumper sticker that says "Jesus, save me from your followers!" I think that is awesome, even as a Christian.

It also quite succinctly sums up how I feel about both LOA and CL at times.
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:05 PM
 
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I find/choose/perceive that my vibration is "Yes!" :







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Old 04-22-2009, 05:31 PM
 
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Wow, this thread has been quite insightful! Thanks to all who have responded, and who continue to explain and try to get answers to questions. I really resonated with a few of the posters here...namely JustMyOpinion. You make so much SENSE! Sending you a lot of love and light!::
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:46 PM
 
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I think this is true for some, children are seeking how they CAN control themselves. When they feel like they can "make the call" about things that are important to them they aren't seeking to do so about things that arent important to them. In other words, the child doesn't want to run in the street just because, but they feel at peace knowing that if they really did want some kind of on the road experience that a solution would be found. If I really thought ym child wanted to do something dangerous just because thats what they wanted to do and for no "real reason" I would think the real reason must be they are feeling out of control of their lives for some reason, and looking for a way to "take back" that control. I don't know how well I'm explaining this....
hm, that kind of sounds like mine...
and yet, when he has freedom, he often doesn't know what to do- because other time he feels like he doesn't have it?
of course, he's also just plain contrary and would refuse to be consensual just to do so...
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