Do you prefer a family Hierarchy or Consensuality? Updated! - Page 25 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: Family Dynamics: Hierarchy or Consensuality?
Definite hierarchy with rules, strict structure; decisions made on behalf of children. 17 2.81%
Hierarchy with guidelines, routine, soft structure; most decisions made for children. 176 29.14%
Consensual family; decisions round table, children are self determining; few or no rules. 56 9.27%
Mostly Consensual; guidelines, choice where possible, highly structured 61 10.10%
Combo; children know their place in hierarchy but have as much freedom as poss within that structure 277 45.86%
I don't know what you are talking about. 17 2.81%
Voters: 604. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-26-2009, 05:41 AM
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Calm: And you all have meetings and they confided this in you, did they? They find this thread and what I'm saying and asking "negative", and therefore will not even "give this thread the time of day"? And... are they all as hurtful as you? And could perhaps the fact that very few non-CLers - a much larger percentage of the readers, as you know - be avoiding this thread because I'm flogging a dead horse? Did hearing that feel unnecessarily hurtful and humiliating?

(no, was it intended to be hurtful? I am not speaking for others, I shared a thought. I felt I was clear in that)

Calm: The fact is, I'm not the only one with these questions and concerns, how about just pretending that I'm the majority, and approach it that way.

(and how about pretending IM a fair representation of CL, instead of demanding that only Pat's responses matter? I guess you feel it somehow helps your 'side' of the argument... the argument isnt CL against Calm's parenting though... You are just right for your family, but CL is ALSO right for those who use it)

Calm: Please, STOP. I asked you to STOP. How is this helpful? I'm not making this about you, and even if I was "tearing down CL", I'm not tearing YOU down, yet you are tearing ME down. Keep to the subject matter, I am not the subject matter!

(and Ive asked you to stop, but you aren't willing - I have no torn down anyones style of parenting the way CL is being torn here. And yes, that is exactly what you are doing. If you treated my home the way you question CL it would be considered ransacking. We are on the subject matter, but whenever I address the subject matter you pretty much deam my insight as irrelevant because its not what you want to hear)

Calm: Why do you insist that saying things like there is incongruency or contradiction some kind of proof of tearing it down? I get it, you love it so much you are horribly irritated that I dare question it. You've posted a lot since you joined, you have no doubt noticed that the fastest way to close a thread is make it personal. Is that your mission? To shut this discussion down?

(Nope, my mission is that we can accept that CL is 100% possible for those who chose it to be, but that also there are other ways of life that are just as "right". I'm not in it to ransack anything the way CL is being ransacked.)

Calm: uh, what? Are you kidding? I can't even address this, this is going somewhere beyond my desire to even follow at all. Children judging the accuracy of information? Yikes. So looking at this how you are leading it... we have a 12 month old who, with accurate information, has the full rights of self determination, and he is the judge of what is accurate information. I tell/demonstrate to my son accurately that the road is dangerous, he deems that is accurate, and stays away from the road.

(I think we were beyond your desire to follow a long time ago. You are obviously misunderstanding me in a HUGE way. I am saying that I know if my children understand the dangers of the road they would not choose to put themselves in that danger. So I have to find a way to convey accurate information IN A WAY THEY WILL UNDERSTAND. Honestly though, havent been in that situation with my 11 month old and dont see myself being in that situation in the next month. Perhaps around 15-18 months, this will be more relevant, but I'm not sure the way this one loves his sling. However, Since you have no desire to follow though I wont burden you with any more knowledge on what I am saying there)

Calm: Or he deems it inaccurate, and I'm to know this... how?

(its not about whether he things its accurate or inaccurate, its about providing the accurate information in a way they understand.)

Calm: Or he still goes toward the road... am I now looking at a situation where a person (a 12 month old) has made an informed choice I must not interfere with, or am I looking at a situation where a person simply doesn't understand the information? Have you thought this through much?

(I have thought this through. I am not saying one wouldn't "interfere" I'm saying that my first step would be to provide accurate information that a child would understand in their first experiences of walking on the side of the road - which we are still in the in arms phase when outdoors at that age, so I can't speak for your situation, only mine. That aside, if my child was saying YES they want to watch mickey mouse tomorrow, but still want to go into the road, we'd look at other solutions. Yes, if a car was coming I would move them so they didnt get hit by a car. i would also do that for my husband, a friend, or a stranger. I feel comfortable that I am not interfering with someone being self determining by saving their life when they dont understand their life is in danger - they have ALREADY self determined they want to live, I am only supporting them in that determination. I wont get into suicide in great detail, but even when I myself was suicidal what I really wanted was to know someone cared enough to stop me. Underlying needs. If I really wanted to kill myself nobody would have been able to stop me anyway. Stopping me wouldn't be stopping me from being self determining. The underlying "determination" was that I wanted to be loved, not that I wanted to die - I can't imagine my 11 month old wanting to die, and therefor I cannot relate to what if you 12 month old still wanted to run into the road and get hit by a car - self determining means letting them do that - well, thats just not the case for my child, my child self determined to live, so if they dont understand that what they are doing would kill them I have to meet that 'base' determination my child made to want to live, and other solutions can follow from there- this is much like when a child is insisting on ice cream but what they really want is connection - you meet the UNDERLYING need, not what you see on the surface.)

So not going in a car is not a necessity to you... and in typical CL fashion (at least on this thread), that means it is therefore not a necessity for anyone. You think it is a perfectly reasonable solution for parents to walk or stay home all the time if their child doesn't want to wear a seatbelt.. and this is consensual living as you see it? Is that the best "solution" to the seatbelt issue - just don't go?

(nope, just ONE of the solutions. My DD went through phase where she didnt like being in her carseat and we resolved that consensually. What we did was she would sit in it in the house. I woult sit in it. Her big brother would sit in it. We would play games while she sat in it. She got in and out of it as she pleased. Then we moved onto buckling it. she loves car rides now. Is it easier to just say "too bad" and strap the kid in? perhaps for some it is. This didnt feel right to me. This is CL as I see it. Others may have other ideas too. I'm not saying a non-CL way is wrong, I'm just saying that yes, I can find CL solutions for this.)

Was this necessary? Did you know that the need to say "no offense" usually means you've been offensive? I keep sharing little anecdotes about my life and these are the responses you keep giving me. I shared what he said about accurate information... no need to keep humiliating. It says so much more about you than it does about me.

((this whole reply, and thread, says volumes I think. I am only saying PLEASE accept that CL is not some horrible thing that and that it is a REAL WORKABLE solution for those who chose for it to be and that ITS OKAY if something DIFFERENT is right for someone else. I ACCEPT YOU CALM. Even if you don't accept me, but it sure would be nice if you were calm in your posts!))

The sad thing is, if I wasn't here asking these things, all those who asked before would be left without answers or understanding ... unless they asked further and then they'd be publicly humiliated for it and told to stop being negative, just have faith and to stop questioning (sounds like the religious discussions I've had). I've seen sunnmama keep giving it a go, but still haven't seen her find satisfaction. I've seen people come and go in this thread, and many others, who ask much the same things and they are given much the same responses as we see here and they just leave it. For many it just doesn't matter that much to them, they are happy to go about CL in as big or little a way as they like. I am that way myself. They may tentatively ask about an inconsistency, but come to their own conclusions if it doesn't fit, and walk away.

(sunnmama has shown such respect in this thread even though she has a different opinion. Her tone, as I read it, comes across as genuine interest, not tring to "make a point" I have offered to brainstorm with her a few posts back and that offer is still on the table if she wants. I cant promise satisfaction though, because to her a non-CL solution may be what is satisfactory. And that may just be what is RIGHT FOR HER FAMILY. I think there are those who LIVE consensually, and those who use consensual solutions. BOTH ARE RIGHT. Neither is superior, in my eyes. )

Calm: I wanted to know how I can let my child be self determining, and what accurate information is, and how all that differs with age. I wanted to know how anyone can say there is always a consensual solution. If that is just faith, then it's faith. I'm not very faith based, I always want more than that. But I can also accept a philosophy is based on faith. Is it known that CL is faith based, that the words of "trust" are enough?... tell me, cos then my questions will be done, and answered. Even though that won't have addressed the self determination issue, it does address the use of the word "always".

(Yes, as Dar and I have both said, we *feel* that you have to believe there are always solutions for there to always be solutions. But even if you don't believe there are always solutions, you may sometimes be able to find them...

but I am guessing for your questions to be done you need pat to answer.

question 2 for Pat: Does belief that there are always solutions contribute to there always being solutions?

self determination was answered many times in many ways. perhaps you need to clarify exactly what you aren't getting about self determination. My child can "self determine" to approve when I pick them up and zoom them away from the road. Self determination is not neglect, which seems to be where you get confused.

I don't see the need for turmoil. Ask questions by all means, but can they be asked without hurtful implications? Can other CLers besides Pat be seen as holding valid opinions on CL? And ultimately, even if it doesn't sound workable to some, can others respect that it is workable for those who have chosen it to be? Can we accept that there is more then one right way to live?

I understand if that goes too far against someone's opinion, but I just think what is being presented here isn't abuse or neglect, and me personally I am able to accept how others live as long as they arent abusing others or neglecting their children. Perhaps that i what prevents one from doing what I ask above though. Perhaps they cant differentiate between self determination and neglect. If thats the case, thats the case, what more can really be said, especially to one who doesn't seem to truly want to understand or accept the difference? Perhaps sunnmama would be willing to translate what your misunderstanding is between self determination and neglect, so that could be cleared up? Or perhaps, we can just accept that I cant explain it in the way you need to understand, and you cant understand in the way myself and others have explained, and just accept that disapointment of not being able understand each other.

At that point, maybe the benefit of the doubt could be given to the CLers? and I say this because CLers who believe fully in CL and it "works" for them know this to be true in a way that others who don't can't know. There is no way for me to "know" what you do is best for your family or not - I just trust that it is. So I'm humbly asking for the same, but I accept if you are not willing to do so. )


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Old 04-26-2009, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It is online ettiquette to remove any quotes if a person removed their post. Although, I think perhaps we are beyond etiquette? I shall therefore put them back up, for the sake of context.

I am not interested in dialogging with you, super glue mommy. Not at this level. You have made this about me, not the subject matter. I can't deal with this amount of bitterness and hate and distrust. You have taken the piss at my daughter and my husband when I've spoken of them with pride, which was the last straw for me.
I assume you are just totally misreading my tone. That can be the only justification for the way you have interacted with me. Many many pages/days ago, we pointed out to each other that perhaps we were in reaction to each other's tone, and since then, I have been very careful to remove potential for misunderstanding, yet you still reacted like this. So perhaps it wasn't me that "caused" you to go berko to begin with. I can't even keep up with your responses on this thread, I go away to think about things you've written, and come back and another four posts are here by you. I don't know how you keep up with it and still get about 50 posts on your post tally per day on top of it. I'm trying to keep up, but then I'm told I'm pushing it, tearing it down, and whatever else you are intent on proving. Just because no one is calling you on your stuff here, doesn't mean there is no stuff to call. You've gotten personal and bitter frequently and I've tried to overlook it and just keep up with the subject and my questions. And here I am now, instead of getting into more nitty gritty about the subject I'm obviously interested in, I've got to prove my worth for being here at all, I've got to write this post.
I wonder if you're interested in helping me or if you are just more interested in debate. You obviously like to post a lot, and debate things, it isn't a stretch to think this is just a bit of fun to you. I could be wrong. But you are making assumptions about me, knowing nothing about me at all. You are putting a tone on me that isn't there. If you can read my posts with a calm tone, you'll see what's really there.

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
and how about pretending IM a fair representation of CL, instead of demanding that only Pat's responses matter?
Again, I repeat myself (read that with a calm tone, and the following words, please) I do not only want Pat's response. However, she can handle my questions without losing her head. She is also the one who wrote the guidelines.
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You are just right for your family, but CL is ALSO right for those who use it
I am not saying CL isn't right for anyone. I said myself I am CL, why do you conveniently forget the facts and slide in these red herrings when I have not said these things?

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and Ive asked you to stop, but you aren't willing
You have not asked me to stop, and if you have, I overlooked it. Quote it for me (again, said calmly, please don't forget my tone). Why should I stop asking my questions? Would that be more convenient for you? You can always leave the thread, have you thought of that? I can discuss with Dar, or wait for Pat. It seems this thread really bothers you, so why are you here? (remember, calm calm calm)

Quote:
I have no torn down anyones style of parenting the way CL is being torn here.
If I wanted to tear down CL, it would look very different to this thread.

I think that with more clarity more people would take it on, and therefore it would benefit more children. People get stumped with the idea that children are treated like adults, not only is it a new concept but it doesn't seem to make sense. I'm trying to find how it makes sense. You have helped me with a few things. But there are some things it is clear you cannot help me with, and therefore cannot help those families.

I cannot see how a baby or toddler, or even older really, can be self-determining in some situations. Even with accurate information. Impulse control is a learned thing, for starters (still reading me calmly? Just making some reminders, and these reminders are also not to be taken as sarcasm).

And then there are things about choice that I'd like help with, such as the example of my child wanting colour and preservative filled candy bar. Dar is comfortable letting her child decide, as are most of the parents on my street, I notice, CL or not. The contents of their lunch boxes make me shudder. Dar answered me reasonably and completely by simply saying that she doesn't mind if her child eats chemicals. I even asked for clarity and she confirmed, yes, she is ok with that.

However I am not. (I am not judging her negatively, just so that isn't suggested, I am just different to her) It's like eating poison to me, because it is. MSG is poison, aspartame is poison, most colors are poison, preservatives are a joke but yes, poison. I trained in learning this, it is more than my job, it is my life. How can I allow my child to eat poison? She knows it is poison, she “has accurate information”, but she still chooses it. Not a big stretch there, she's a kid, and that's a candy bar!

I asked for a CL solution, I got one, but it doesn't fit me. That's ok, that happens, we're all different. If something is not an option to me, it can still be an option to someone else. I might think playing on the road is fine and another CL mama might not and therefore she might bring in negotiations at that point and find a mutually satisfying alternative. To me, she doesn't have the option of allowing her child to play on the road. It's just not an option. To suggest it is, and that she just isn't willing is unfair.

If there is only one consensual solution, but it isn't an option for a parent, then that solution doesn't actually exist. Not for them. To me, this is consensual living between adults, realising that our options are different, and therefore, no matter how many consensual options I have, another mother might be faced with none. But this is denied by you, as representative of CL, so to speak. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that true? If an option is not valid for one mother, but in the same situation is valid to another, is it considered an option regardless? Could this be why CL, you, consider there to always be a consensual solution to a problem? (just checking again, calm calm, not tearing anything down, just seeking...)

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have a lot of questions. I didn't realise until this discussion started going how many I had. With each successive answer that felt unsatisfying, it only brought more questions. I don't apologise for that. And to be honest, I can't believe it is being suggested that I stop asking. Here, just take your pill and be quiet, shhhh, go nigh nighs. That's how I've felt in this thread. And the hostility seems unwarranted. I hope tone reminders help this problem, so the focus goes off the idea that anyone is tearing something down and goes onto actually solving something here. Which reminds me... we're still relaxed, not raising voices or being facetious or nit picky... calm.

Quote:
So I have to find a way to convey accurate information IN A WAY THEY WILL UNDERSTAND
Bingo. I just had to quote this because you've nailed part of it. This is what I'm trying to say. I believe that the part you have in capitals there is how the guidelines should read. As it stands, it is too open to misinterpretation (maybe not by you, just in case you were going to say “I get it therefore it is easy to get”). It doesn't end there though, that addendum only helps. More needs to be added to help people with this whole philosophy. "In a way they will understand" brings more questions up for me.

We are talking about small children self determining here, it is not a small subject that we just walk away from. This is a BIG subject worthy of a thread much longer than this. Self determining children, of any age - this is big, this is rife with potential to misunderstand. A child is going to make decisions on things from what to eat through to whether or not to play on a railway track. Kids do die, I've lost one, I know they die, they don't just get hurt. They die all the time, they get sick, they also do stupid things. Not all of them do it from a place of damage or unmet needs and that is where I guess I differ from the CL standard. I'm ok with being different in this regard. I asked a few questions about the unmet needs thing, didn't resonate and so just left it. Joined the majority on that one.

I do still wonder about self determining toddlers, with accurate information. I mean, my son is climbing the stairs and I'm ok with this. The rest of the house (my mum, DH, brothers, etc) can't watch, it freaks them out. They are steep, and made of wood, and the bottom is solid concrete. He has determined he can climb them, but he nearly fell today. I was so proud of him and myself for our decision, and still am. But he nearly fell. I have even wondered how much damage he could do to himself if he did fall, and I have surmised he will survive unless he hits a lower step in such a way as to tweak his neck.

I am going to block the stairs. I feel this is blocking his decision, his self determination because he is sniffing around the blockade and looking at me and signing for me to move it. I walk them with him but he's not interested in that, he wants unlimited access. But I've made a decision based on years of experience and just knowing a bit more than him about physics. He had accurate info, I know this, he even knew to turn and go down backwards, he showed a little fear, which showed me that he respected the volatile nature of the situation. But it isn't enough.

Accurate information + understanding does NOT = SKILL.

So there are many reasons I'd like to see the guidelines reworded, and none of them seem to bother anyone but me. They just decide to omit that part in their CL journey. Yet perhaps there is a way to incorporate this into their journey, if it was worded in another way.
Quote:
its not about whether he things its accurate or inaccurate, its about providing the accurate information in a way they understand.
But you clearly stated in a previous post that the child decides if information is accurate. What did you mean by that?

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Old 04-26-2009, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There is no way for me to "know" what you do is best for your family or not - I just trust that it is. So I'm humbly asking for the same, but I accept if you are not willing to do so.
What are you talking about? Where do you get this stuff? I don't give a rat's pajamas what you do at home, honestly. (remember, calm tone, relaxed) You say you like CL, great. What has that got to do with whether a child can be self determining or not? What has that got to do with my suggestion that for some mamas, there is no such thing as “always” consensual solutions and there is such a thing as “must”. I haven't suggested you stop using consensual solutions.

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 04-26-2009, 09:40 AM
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which post did you remove? I went ot bed after my last post, so you didnt really give me a chance to do anything? I had insomnia last night, working on 3 hours of sleep here.

I don't feel I am "berko" and certainly have not used any name calling with you.

Again, you said many times you are CC. I have also seen people say "oh I supplemented with formula" and then proceed to rip formula feeding apart to formula feeing mothers, as if somehow when they claimed to use formula themselves it gave them free pass to insult. If you practice CL, then by all means, you can answer these questions for your self about what CL looks like in your family. What I hear though is you saying how you don't agree with or get the very fundamentals of CL. Why do you follow CL if this is how you feel about the fundamentals of it? Perhaps, like you said in earlier posts many many many times, you are a CC mama who uses consensual solutions as a tool. There is nothing wrong with that mama. That rocks for you and your family so you need to embrace it and be proud of it! You don't have to determine anything about another persons way of life to own your way of life and be proud of it!

I mean, so you don't "get it". So what? what you DO get is working for you! I hear those who don't understand CL all saying they are HAPPY with the way they parent and think that having veto power is the BETTER way for them. I haven't seen anyone say "I totally don't agree with CL but I want to be a CL mama so can someone explain it to me in a way that sounds like what I am already doing?" I am lost on what this "need to understand" is. I mean I get the need to understand, just not taking to the degree where you hold a singular way of life under a microscope and twist and turn it every way. It would be like if I saw something was red and I wanted to believe it was orange, and holding it under the microscope and trying different kind of lighting in the room in hopes that somehow I could *make* it orange because I so desperately want it to be. I mean, if I really wanted orange so bad, I could go get orange and just accept that the red is red. I might look at it closer, a bit confused... is it REALLY red, but I wouldn't spend weeks at the microscope trying to force it to be another color.

I wasn't asking you to stop asking questions. Actually, it was more me asking if you COULD do something, not for you to stop something. So you are right, I didn't ask you to "stop".... What I asked was this:

Ask questions by all means, but can they be asked without hurtful implications? Can other CLers besides Pat be seen as holding valid opinions on CL? And ultimately, even if it doesn't sound workable to some, can others respect that it is workable for those who have chosen it to be? Can we accept that there is more then one right way to live?

I understand if that goes too far against someone's opinion, but I just think what is being presented here isn't abuse or neglect, and me personally I am able to accept how others live as long as they arent abusing others or neglecting their children. Perhaps that i what prevents one from doing what I ask above though. Perhaps they cant differentiate between self determination and neglect. If thats the case, thats the case, what more can really be said, especially to one who doesn't seem to truly want to understand or accept the difference? Perhaps sunnmama would be willing to translate what your misunderstanding is between self determination and neglect, so that could be cleared up? Or perhaps, we can just accept that I cant explain it in the way you need to understand, and you cant understand in the way myself and others have explained, and just accept that disappointment of not being able understand each other.

At that point, maybe the benefit of the doubt could be given to the CLers? and I say this because CLers who believe fully in CL and it "works" for them know this to be true in a way that others who don't can't know. There is no way for me to "know" what you do is best for your family or not - I just trust that it is. So I'm humbly asking for the same, but I accept if you are not willing to do so.

I guess I don't see CL as something I need to "convince more people to take on" or that *my way* (CL) is the only way that benefits children. I think your approach and the approach of many in this thread benefits children. It is not my goal to get more people to use CL, but I was hoping for respect without insinuations about what I do.

My kid dont eat candybars, but at this time I can only speak about this from a ome that doesn keep candybars in the house and children who don't feel the need to get someting every time we go to the grocery store and when they do get something they choose as stuffed toy or art supplies.

I think CL solutions are always possible because the parent is determined to find CL solution - not because the part is okay with her child playing bingo on the train tracks or eating a candy bar - though yes, maybe some parents are okay with that. And so are some mama's who aren't CL. That is not what CL is about to me, no. To me it is not about willingness to let your children do what others parents dont - though YES that is sometimes a factor, but more so is a factor of CL not being important to parents and so CL solutions are not important to find, and so parents will resign "there is no solution"


*I will step back now for you, and leave this floor open to any CLers who feel comfortable to answer your questions*

You use phrases like rats pajamas then say "i mean that calmy"

I use CL, and you obviously care very much about what CL means. There are always consensual solutions because I chose for there to always be solutions. There is no must because I chose for there to be no must.

Yes in a previous post I used poor wording, which I clarified for you, I am taking about a child understanding the accurate information. I think I described self determining VERY clearly, you seem to have this conviction to ask for the sake of others, and I have seen many people pop into this thread who have been able to understand what CL means better now, so you acheived that, but perhaps not everyone is as open minded as those posters to think outside their box enough to understand what self determining means. Is your point for me to say to you "I am out of ways to describe this" so you can say I don't live consensually, to prove your notion that there arents always consensual options, or that accurate information cannot always be expressed in a way the other person understands? If so, I hear you on that. For me, I know I am capable of helping another person understand me, but it does not mean they will admit to understanding. Is consensual possible with those who refuse to try to come to a consensual solution with you? I am not very skilled in this area... I know it is possible for *some* to live consensually with everyone around them. I find my children are understand me, and my husband and friends understand me, and even strangers understand me. You do not understand me or want it to appear that you do not understand me. I can say that I may not be expressing myself in a way that is understandable for you. You remind me a great deal of my mom, who was a wonderul women albeit toxic to me, but I could not live consensually with her. I just didn't have the skills to do so and it is apparent I do not have those skills now. I hope the people I know in real life continue to come from aplace of genuinely wanting to understand and being reasonable, in the meantime I will work on my ability to express myself more clearly and brainstorm some ideas of how I can live consensually with those who are not willing.

What I am talking about and where I get this is from LIVING CONSENSUALLY.

As I said, I am signing off now, feel free to take your last jabs at me and get your last word against me. I have said nothing nasty to you and yet I have been torn down post after post and I have to respect myself now.

Please, any CLers who feel comfortable to engage Calm in the kind of discussion she is leading feel free to do so, the floor is yours!

sunnmama, I am still here to answer any questions you have as you continue to phrase them respectfully and with what seems to be genuine interest in understanding, and not intent to rip my way of life to shreds under the microscope.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:30 PM
 
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"Perhaps sunnmama would be willing to translate what your misunderstanding is between self determination and neglect, so that could be cleared up?"

SGM,
I am sorry you feel like Calm is trying to tear down CL. That has not been my impression. I am glad she is continuing to ask questions because I am still confused. Just because I am confused does not mean I am trying to tear something down thought just trying to understand. With that in mind I also do not understand how a young child can be self determining.

"I have seen many people pop into this thread who have been able to understand what CL means better now, so you acheived that, but perhaps not everyone is as open minded as those posters to think outside their box enough to understand what self determining means."

I don't think I should have to think outside the box to understand self determining. Here is a dictionary definition.

1.the act or power of making up one's own mind about what to think or do, without outside influence or compulsion.

For the record, I think that respecting each others needs and wants equally is excellent as is trying to come up with mutually agreeable solutions. I believe there is a hierarchical component to the parent child relationship though and this is why. The parent has the information. They are the outside influence and to deny that influence seems inaccurate to me. I used the word manipulate earlier in the thread and I think it offended some posters but I am not sure what other word to use, maybe guide.
Do CLers believe your children chose to be raised in a CL family? I guess that would be a thread, maybe for spirituality. But see, you chose that. That is what you are teaching them because you are the parent.
Pat calls herself her sons' "trusted adviser." Trusted adviser is a position of power. It is the information that she and her husband impart that her child listens too, he likely would make other decisions with other parents who imparted different information.
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Thank you for your respectful inquiry.

Based on that definition including : without outside influence : no one could be self determining because we are immersed in life and therefore are surrounded by influence.

Here are some other defintions of self determination:
*of one's own fate or course of action without compulsion

*refers to independence and control over one’s life. It is an ordering of one’s desires and determination to purposefully control one’s destiny.
(sharing the non political definitions)

deinition of compulsion:
*an urge to do or say something that might be better left undone

ETA: I looked up the definition of influence, so we could maybe understand better the definition you found (by the way, could you source your definition, it would help me take it better in context as some definitions also refer to political stuff - the self determination of a country, instead of as an individual - where in CL I think its reffering to personal self determination... though I can see how the family itself coudl also be self determined within their world.

influence:
a power to affect persons or events especially power based on prestige.

(CLers don't use power nor do they see their role in the family as one of 'prestige' we offer information not to have control over the other person, but to help the other person make a self determined decision that is not compulsory. This is where understanding their desire to live comes iinto play, which because I was suicidal at one point in my life I feel comfortable opperating on the assumption people do not REALLY want to die, but there is another underlying need they have. I also feel safe trusting that my child (who has just told me they do want to have a snack when we get home) is certainly not feeling hopeless and desiring to escape life. My child just wants to run into the street. Which we still may be able to make possible in a safe way, but we would have to find that way first and often if they understand the accurate information they are given it reduces their desire to do dangerous things. There is a huge trust that I believe comes from both being attached and practicing CL. (so other mama's are attached too, of course, I am just speaking of my own attached relationship with my children)

Many of the other definitions of influence don't seem to me to fit in my mind with the definition of self determination, because we are all influenced simply by being alive. I mean, IDK, maybe some people aren't influenced by life? I know I am. I know if its raining that may influence what I do that day. I know if someone I love is hurting that will influence how I feel. My connection with my children leads me to be influenced by them, and I imagine the same is true likewise - that will out imposing myself "because I'm the parent with veto power" my children will take influence from me. They will do so for a different reason. they will do so because they feel safe with me, because they admire me, because it feels right, because they know if it doesnt feel right, they can choose what does feel right for them and I will support them still, I will find a way to help them be self determined (which as we have defined would mean without compulsion - I dont determine FOR them, I help them determine for themselves, by helping them recognize -even if not directly - compulsion, and helping them to eliminate that from the equation before moving forward so that they CAN make self determined choices.)

My first experience ever of my child wanting to run into the street was because his ball went across the street just 2 days ago (at age 3 1/2) He wanted to run across the street, not just because, because frankly given all his other options running into the street probably always seemed like a boring choice to him lol, but because he wanted his ball back. So I said Stop! We will get it together"

Impulse (compulsory) aside though my son would not choose to run into the street because he has been taught from an early age that streets are dangerous (Dar explained this very well a few posts back) but when impulse takes over, I help him remove that impulse SO he can make a self determined decision. Giving him information that he understands (which in this case I knew the underlying need so I went straight to that: the information he needed was to know we WOULD go get his ball, but we would do it together, safely) In another situation the information given may have been different.

hope that helps.

source:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...ition&ct=title
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...ition&ct=title

CL seems to be intermittently confused with both neglect and child led parenting. I am in control of my own fate, so I can make choices for my life. I choose to live consensually with others. No one is forcing my child to live consensually with me. They are very happy though, and I hear often how they simply exude happiness. We are a very connected and respectful family.

I suppose it is a matter of spirituality because one could also say, a child did not ask to be born, and for me, that definitely falls into spirituality. I do believe though that I am very connected and respectful of my family. My goal is to treat them the way I think THEY want to be treated, is of course if I am treating them a certain way that is because that is what I understand they need. I do this because *I* live *my* life consensually. To explore the idea a bit though, as I stated earlier my family seems to go with the flow until there needs differ, then they speak up. So it is them speaking up that clues me in to the fact they have a need outside of my own, and then we work to meet that need consensually. So yes, I do think they choose that, because if they didn't choose that they would not 'ask' for that.
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We just thought that Erica was just extremely shy, had a low stress tolerance, and a personal space that was 6' in diameter. The diagnosis of bi-polar, OCD, and social anxiety wasn't made until she was in her twenties.

It all depends on how you define "modern history". A society led by one leader (a dictator, tribal chief, khan, patriarch) is the first government that people came up with. As a metaphor for the stages of child development, using political/governmental systems to describe them has its drawbacks and flaws just like any metaphor.

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I have social anxiety and sensory issues.

I dont even remember my metaphor... I dont remember using political/government system as a metaphor for child development?

I just said that we start meeting the childs needs/wants, and they evolve to meet more of their needs/wants until they are self sufficient.

instead of what you describe.. which is lets say there is a baby named A. a power as baby to parent power, to a power as adult. See Saw.

Where as I kind of look at it more as evolving as the travel down the path of life.
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And that's the problem here as I see it. You have that child that not only understands that he can have A or B but not both, he also doesn't demand C. I had children like your son. Erica wasn't one of them. Erica in your situation of the street or Micky Mouse Clubhouse would choose both. She had no concept of one or the other. It was always everything she wanted she could have even if the wants were mutually exclusive or impossible. And being hurt or hit by a car was not in her universe.

In my example of her having to wear a hat outside when it was hot, she could A: wear the hat and go outside or B not wear the hat and stay inside. She wanted C: not wear the hat and go outside. That was not an option for her. No amount of reasoning, emphasizing, or validating her feelings was going to change her mind. No amount of reminding her of her previous experience with heat exhaustion was going to deter her from what she wanted now. What was decided last time had no bearing on this time.

Chris--extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, babywearing, co-sleeping, APing, CLW, homeschooling before any of this was a trend mom to Joy (1/78), Erica (8/80), Angela (9/84), Dylan (2/98)
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:12 PM
 
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Can't chat.

There are no victims and nothing to defend.




Peace. Breathe.


All is well, ladies. Hug your babies and touch their cheek with yours. Smell their hair. For this brief moment they are with you.


Pat

I have a blog.
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:13 PM
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it would be okay if my child chose both. its not a matter of mickey mouse or street. its a matter of helping my child determine that they DO want to live, which I inherently know, and so that if they DO choose to play in the street, we need to find a safe way to do that. However, I would still be looking for the underlying REASON for wanting to play in the street.

I understand children like Erica because I WAS like her (from what you have described so far)... am to an extent still, though I have so many more coping skills as an adult compared to as a child.

In the heat exhausten example, which I have had on a field trip at school growing up, a hat is not the ONLY thing one can do to prevent heat stroke - and so, I would tap into those other options if my child didnt want to wear a hat to go outside.

My children don't like hats either.

Me personally, I find that the heat cant escape my body if I wear a hat, so if I wear a hat its to protect sun damage, but definitely not to keep my body temp down. wearing a hat, in my experience, since heat escapes through the feet and head, would be counter intuitive.

Ways to prevent heat exhausten:

drink plenty of water
rest
eat
go out at night
wear light colored loose fitting clothes
avoid sunburn (which is where I think you got wear a hat from - this can be done in other ways - stay in the shade, wear sun block)
go inside to air conditioning to cool off from time to time


im sure there are even ome other more creative solutions out there as well. I have to be careful with this with my own children (who dont wear hats!) because I live in a very hot and sunny climate.

also don't get me wrong - my son is only okay with a or b or a and b or not demanding c if he is okay with it. if he's not okay like that, then we have to find other solutions. Erica sounds VERY normal in that regard. I think the bigger surprise is you had a child like what you think my son was like (okay with either a or b) that is not always the case. My child understands he can have a or b or both or neither or c or x or 27 or giraffe. it's not so cut and dry. its not always black and white as I explained earlier. sometimes the answer isnt black or white or in between (gray) sometimes its fuchsia or chartreuse or mango.
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Can't chat.

There are no victims and nothing to defend.




Peace. Breathe.


All is well, ladies. Hug your babies and touch their cheek with yours. Smell their hair. For this brief moment they are with you.


Pat
Thanks Pat! Me and my youngest just got out of the shower and he is nursing now
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:18 PM
 
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My child isn't old enough for me to really jump in here- he is 4 weeks old and I am at his command LOL I do have a dog though! I am very concerned with the feelings of my husband, my baby, and my dog (the dog has been my best friend for 12 years, is 100% indoors and a very very important part of my life- sleeps in the family bed, etc). I consider ALL of them in any choice I make. I do not allow misbehavior, but I am so respectful and loving and I am certain I will be with my son, too.

In our marriage, DH's word is law, and he enforces things with me and the dog and I imagine some day the baby- but he respects us all too. But ultimately, if he says something needs to be a certain way, then it is (he never asks me to do anything I am ethically not okay with or which is abusive, etc!). The Golden rule- he who has the gold makes the rules. And in this house, it's he.
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:48 PM
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And that's the problem here as I see it. You have that child that not only understands that he can have A or B but not both, he also doesn't demand C. I had children like your son. Erica wasn't one of them.
I'm kind of surprised to hear that there are children like that who simply accept A and B as the only possible options, actually...

And this is what I was talking about earlier when I alluded to examining our own beliefs and ideas... because there are never just A and B... or even A, B, and C. We have a whole alphabet of options, and beyond...

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Old 04-26-2009, 04:46 PM
 
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The Golden rule- he who has the gold makes the rules.

That isnt' the golden rule as I've learned it
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Old 04-26-2009, 04:52 PM
 
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I'm kind of surprised to hear that there are children like that who simply accept A and B as the only possible options, actually...

And this is what I was talking about earlier when I alluded to examining our own beliefs and ideas... because there are never just A and B... or even A, B, and C. We have a whole alphabet of options, and beyond...

Dar
But the options are not equally workable or safe....and some exist only in theory because they are completely unworkable in the moment....

Car:

It isn't only my choice to ride in the car; it is also my dc's choice. My dc very much want to visit their grandparents' houses, for one thing, and it requires car travel at least part of the way (we can walk to the train station, and take the train to their state, but the then we must take a car from the station to their house--distance 60 miles). Not visiting is an unsatisfactory option, albeit an option.

We could ride without seatbelts. It is illegal and unsafe, but we could do it. I don't think that is a meaningful choice, although it does exist.

As I see it, if we are to visit the grandparents in their home (which the children want), we must wear seatbelts. I think it is disingenous to suggest
that we are choosing to wear them, and that their are other options. We are choosing to visit, and seatbelts are part of the package.
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:12 PM
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I want to fully understand your situation sunnmama

I can only imagine my children in that situation (at least accurately) My children if they wanted to go would be happy to wear their seatbelts if they knew that was part of the deal. My children also LOVE car rides though, so it's not like I can accurately place myself in your shoes even though I try.

I would look at all the options:
can the grandparents visit us?
can we find out the underlying cause for not wanting to wear the seat belt? (uncomfortable? - can we make it more comfortable?, not wanting to be confined? - will the children agree to taking stretching breaks every so often?, boredom making it hard to sit still? - is there an activity that would be engaging to them to do on the way while buckled in? do car rides make them tired, and sleeping with a seat belt on is uncomfortable or too hard to do? etc, I could probably go on for days lol, I was a kid once too!)
can we meet the grandparents somewhere half way (if it seems they are fine at the beginning of the ride but not near the end)

I mean I realize the difference here is "what if you run out of options and everything is unworkable" where as the CL family doesn't consider that - they believe there are infinite options, and it seems in believing that we find them. And those who don't believe it, dont find them. Dar worded it well a few posts back as well. Perhaps the reason we are always able to come up with CL solutions is because we trust they are always there?

there seems to be a divide in this thread in trying to understand CL that takes place when one "side" is saying "how can I make this work" and another side is saying "but ultimately it might not work"... we never get to the latter, because we keep asking how can I make this work, instead of saying this is why it wont work.
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:20 PM
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I think I've pretty much given up on suggesting solutions for particular situations, since there are so many possibilities, and with the little I really know about anyone else's situation I think the odds of my hitting upon a workable solution are slim.

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Old 04-26-2009, 05:28 PM
 
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I think I've pretty much given up on suggesting solutions for particular situations, since there are so many possibilities, and with the little I really know about anyone else's situation I think the odds of my hitting upon a workable solution are slim.

dar
I'm not looking for a solution, as it isn't a problem. My dc accept that they must wear a seatbelt (or be in a carseat, as the case may be). I just don't understand how this conversation would work without "must" (or need to, etc), why it is preferable to happen without must, or how it actually is not at "must" when they choose to travel by car.
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:29 PM
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I think I've pretty much given up on suggesting solutions for particular situations, since there are so many possibilities, and with the little I really know about anyone else's situation I think the odds of my hitting upon a workable solution are slim.

dar
Totally understandable. Thats why I was asking if instead of saying CL is ultimately impossible for some, if it could just be respected that its ultimately workable for those of us who choose to "work it"?.. to just trust that it is true for us, and we will trust what they say is true for them. We can all only accurately speak for ourselves. Though I don't mind offering ideas for someone who is seeking to find a solution, I don't like offering ideas for someone who is seeking to prove there is no workable solution. The former seems to accept that even if I dont have the answer for them it doesnt mean the answer doesnt exist..
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I'm not looking for a solution, as it isn't a problem. My dc accept that they must wear a seatbelt (or be in a carseat, as the case may be). I just don't understand how this conversation would work without "must" (or need to, etc), why it is preferable to happen without must, or how it actually is not at "must" when they choose to travel by car.
What you are saying is that you gave your child information (it's illegal to ride in a car without a seatbelt) and they self determined to ride in the car wearing a seatbelt, so its not a problem. Sounds good to me

The must issue

1) you CAN choose not to use a seat belt. for me personally, that is a mutually agreeable solution.
2) because that is nor a usable solution for me, I find another solution.

We aren't addressing what we *must* do, we are addressing all of our options. I guess it all depends on how you choose to look at it, as I stated earlier. We aren't looking for how it wont work, we are looking for how it will.
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:56 PM
 
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I'm kind of surprised to hear that there are children like that who simply accept A and B as the only possible options, actually...

And this is what I was talking about earlier when I alluded to examining our own beliefs and ideas... because there are never just A and B... or even A, B, and C. We have a whole alphabet of options, and beyond...

Dar
That came from SGM's post #712: " okay accurate information:

let me clarify - you want to know:

what if a child TRULY understands that running in front or a moving car will result in getting hit by that car, which will result in extreme pain or death, but they still want to do it? thats what you want to know? I guess I cant answer that because I cant imagine there being a situation where a child TRULY understands the implications of getting hit by a car. I trust that my child wants to watch Mickey Mouse Clubhouse tomorrow morning, and so, I know if they understood that getting hit by a car would prevent that he would not want to get hit by a car.

Son, if you run into the street you could get hit by a car and be hurt. It would hurt more then when you bumped your head this morning on the doorknow

my son would definitely so "NO HURT! NO HURT!!!"

but lets say in bizarro world (what would be bizarre for MY child I am saying) he said "I want to run in the street anyway!"

I would think he doesn't have accurate information on what hurt means in this situation. I wold say "but if you did get hit by a car, then you wouldn't be able to watch mickey tomorrow morning."

and at that point, if THAT didn't help him understand, again in some parallel universe, he would be talking to me about "but what if I dont get hit by a car" (which he isnt currently capable of conversations like this, and so it wouldnt get to this point) but at which point we could discuss other options (which I went over way back in this thread)

I feel like what you are asking is, what if a toddler knew that getting hi by a car would hurt. and they there was NOTHING in their life they loved enough to want to enjoy later that day or the next day, so there would be no way to help them understand the implications of their actions, AND on top of that, were not open to ANY other solutions regarding road/car/traffic experience.

Is that what you want an answer to? I mean there are millions of hypothetical situations that are just so unlikely I cant understand even entertaining the idea of them. Much like a what if monkey poop fell from the sky and the hippos stepped in it and your child wanted to ride the hippo but the hippo was going into the ocean and your child doesnt know how to swim? i mean really??

I'm pretty sure Pat said something about just picking up a child and zooming them away like an airplane ride. I mean we are talking about a toddler here, so I find my toddler ideas work for toddlers. When I have an older child, we'll work with child ideas, and I trust they will work too. I've seen and heard them working with other children. children who survived a life of being self determined.

but thats the best way I can describe accurate information though I realize it doesnt matter because my name isnt Pat
Last edited by Super Glue Mommy; Yesterday at 06:44 PM. "

What I have tried to get across in this thread is that there are children who will always chose the option she posed tongue in cheek above "Much like a what if monkey poop fell from the sky and the hippos stepped in it and your child wanted to ride the hippo but the hippo was going into the ocean and your child doesnt know how to swim? i mean really??" I do mean really. Erica would pose exactly that option (if she had thought of it). If I proposed it it, she would reject it out of hand even if that was the option she really wanted. Simply because I proposed it.

From what I have read so far, SGM doesn't have a child like that. I did have a child like her son who when told that getting hit by a car would hurt worse than being hit by a doorknob would believe you and not run into the street. Erica was not that child. She would believe that she could get hurt by a car only after actually getting hurt by a car. No amount of telling her or showing her by driving the car over a soda can (for example) was going to mean anything to her.

Another thing I would like to have addressed is what happens the next time the child wants to go into the street. Does a CL family go through the same options/solutions every time or does the child accept the option/solution that was agreed to the last time?

Chris--extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, babywearing, co-sleeping, APing, CLW, homeschooling before any of this was a trend mom to Joy (1/78), Erica (8/80), Angela (9/84), Dylan (2/98)
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:19 PM
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my son is not like that. my daughter is. My daughter's answer to everything is no. Or, if she is feeling compliant, she chooses whatever the most recent option she heard

Do you want chocolate or poop? she would say poop if she was feeling agreeable. other times she if I said "do you want chocolate, or do you want ice cream?" she would just NO! no chocolate! no ice cream! (just an example) I treat my children individually. there is no one size fits all in our home.

sometimes the child defaults to the last solution made. sometimes the child decides that they dont like that arrangement after all, and so we seek to find a new solution.

Your daughter sound so much like I was as a child, and a bit like my son in some ways and a bit like my daughter in some ways. I don't it would be impossible for me to live consensually with any of my current or future children, because I look at how can I live consensually, not how is consensual living going to fail me.

It truly does make a huge difference in my experience to look at it that way. I think those who truly believe it and truly want to embrace it are successful with CL for that reason. If its not important to you, or if you are unwilling to trust it then the whole concept is irrelevant. Noting anyone says will change your mind, because you are content with the way you alread think. And thats okay. It's just not the only right way to live.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:38 PM
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I just realized that I've been having online conversations about parenting in this way for at least twelve years, and it always comes down to playing in the street and sitting in a carseat. Neither of which have been a huge issue in my life, I have to say...

I think that with young children, words aren't used nearly as often as many people seem to be thinking. If you know that a child won't choose what she truly wants when given an oral choice, don't give her that kind of choice. When Rain was little - under 2 - we used to play in the street (neighborhood, not busy, all the kids would play there) and whenever a car came I yelled out "Car!" with great urgency, exaggerated my facial reaction, and grabbed the nearest kids to zoom out of the street. The other kids got into it, and Rain also thought it was a lot of fun and followed along.

It never occurred to me to sit down and ask her if she wanted to play in the street or run out of the street - I led, she followed, and it was good for both of us. There's nothing long with social learning, as long as you're not coerced into doing so.

I suppose if Rain (or another kid) had not run out of the street with the rest of us, I would have found another way to deal with it, but it was a fun game and they all enjoyed it...

Dar

 
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:43 PM
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I have the same experience Dar. That generaly, the kids just go to with the flow, so we haven't really had a need to get all into the carseat or street ssue, except when talking hypothetically, which is usually with people who don't agree with self determination, or dont understand self determination.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:28 PM
 
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"CL seems to be intermittently confused with both neglect and child led parenting. I am in control of my own fate, so I can make choices for my life. I choose to live consensually with others. No one is forcing my child to live consensually with me. They are very happy though, and I hear often how they simply exude happiness. We are a very connected and respectful family."

I am glad it is working for you family but I am still stuck on a 3 year old being self determining. I know a three year old can make choices for themselves but I believe it is inherent in the parent child relationship at that age for them to trust in and believe in their parent so I cannot see them as being completely self determining. I know that my influence on them is really strong and my beliefs about what is best for them are going to influence my interactions with them and ultimately influence their decisions even if I am not forcing them to do something. When you say "No one is forcing my child to live consensually with me." at the age of 3 I am wondering what you mean.

So do those of you who believe young children are self determining believe that only of kids who are raised in a CL family?

To get away from car seats and streets, I have a couple questions.

Did you offer your infant children formula and breast milk to see which one they preferred and then feed them accordingly?

If an adult parent is sexually abusing a 3 year old child but the child consents to it do you think it is because the child made a self determined decision or do you think the parents' influence led the child to consent?

What I still cannot understand is to say something like, oh we do not believe in blame or must in our family and our child is completely self determined. Don't you think they believe that there is no blame or must because it is what you know to be true and you have expressed to them their whole life. And please let me say again I am not saying it is wrong to believe in or to teach your truth to your children but to say they self determined that that is what they believe is a stretch to me because like I said before if they were raised by different parents at age 3 I am guessing they would believe what those parents believe.

Would you at least concede that there is a difference between the reasoning skills of a very young child and that of a young adult? There is also the fact that a young adult has access to much more varied information not just one adviser that they completely trust.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:43 PM
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nope, I dont think allowing a child to be self determining is at all exclusive to CL

I didn't offer my child formula, when they were born they rooted for the breast, and I gave them my breast.

As I said, CL does not mean you walk around from the moment they are born saying "do you want this or this? this or that? how about this this or that and that and this and that?" not at all. The follow our lead, and as they grow they feel more comfortable moving "away" from us. they seek a little independence at a time. So basically, we just go with the flow. This is still self determining. If they didnt want to do something, we would know, and then we would find a way to support them respectfully.

What is a stretch to you is not a stretch to me. Wwhat you cannot understand is the easiest for me to undersand. I am sorry I cannot control your ability to understand though. I have made attempts to explain, but its obvious what you do is working for you and what I do is working for me. Your understanding isn't really necessary, as it does not change what my truth is, nor does it change what your truth is, because you are fine where you are at. At best, it would change your opinion of what *I* do in *my* family, and I guess what it comes down to, is I've put a lot of energy in trying to help others understand, but it's not really that important to me that they understand because its not gong to change my reality or theirs.

Yes, children have access to more information then infants. young adults more then children. and adults more then young adults. You are asking if I am willing to agree to that, I am not only willing to agree to that, I already said that (in different words, many times), so its like asking if I am you willing to agree with myself lol.

you are also now confusing self determination with abuse. Children aren't consenting to be abused in those cases. They are being manipulated and confused into letting someone hurt them. A child "self determining" to let someone sexually abuse them is not in reality self determination because its going against a more basic determination they had for themselves, before someone over powered them (physically or emotionally)

I feel this thread is getting very far out of hand now with these implications about sexual molestation and such. If anything I have felt my parenting has helped protect my children from being a victim in this way (and I think there are other ways of parenting and life that can do the same) I feel very sick now. Sorry, I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

If you cant, that is okay. My mom doesn't understand pre algebra, but that doesn't mean that x+7=9 solve for x isn't 2. x is 2, even if my mom can't understand that. Of course I realize with CL we are talking more about pi - which goes on infinitely, not x. I can see how infinite is harder to accept then set parameters.

I had planned to stick around to reply for some of the posters (with respect to not respond to calm since she did not want answers from me and I wanted to leave the floor open for other CLers who felt comfortable with her approach to the conversation to answer her) However at this point, I want to say my PM box is open to anyone who genuinely is looking for support, and also to recommend the yahoo group Pat has linked several times in this thread. (here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/) but I don't feel comfortable anymore, so I need to leave this to the people who do. I am willing to help those who want to find a consensual solution, not those who want to prove there is none. If you are reading this and that is what you are looking for, I recommend the CL group posted above, and also welcome you to PM me.
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Old 04-26-2009, 09:50 PM
 
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"you are also now confusing self determination with abuse. Children aren't consenting to be abused in those cases. They are being manipulated and confused into letting someone hurt them. A child "self determining" to let someone sexually abuse them is not in reality self determination because its going against a more basic determination they had for themselves, before someone over powered them (physically or emotionally)"

I am not confusing self determination with abuse. I am trying to point out that if a parent believes something they can convince their child of said thing and the child would consent to it.
I am sorry my example offended you but I am trying to point that a parents beliefs and the information that they share with a young child have a huge affect on the child and what they believe and the decisions they make. And that can be positive as the way you are raising your children or it could be negative with a different parent, but that it is the parent that forms the childs' beliefs. So the decisions that I believe a 3 year old will come too will be heavily influenced by their parent and to say they are self determining still does not seem accurate to me.
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