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#121 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:09 PM
 
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I also think that there SHOULD be a world of difference between selling sex and selling other forms of labour.
Why?
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#122 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:15 PM
 
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Yes, she might be damaged emotionally(whose not in some way, after all) but not from a life in the sex industry or some sort of sexual abuse.
I don't think I am emotionally damaged - just different from the majority of women...I actually think I am very healthy emotionally wise. I'm a happily married mommy who just happens to enjoy the occasional dirty movie .
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#123 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by silkiemum View Post
Sigh. It depresses me that something as fun and sweaty and gorgeous as sex has been so debased.
I do agree with this wholeheartedly. Sex with the mate of my choice is good old-fashioned fun as far as I'm concerned.

But this is the real world we live in. When my kids were little I steered them clear of disney, bratz, yucky stuff that tries to sexualize children too soon. I always let my kids know how I feel about sex selling toothpaste or any other product. I debunk common sexual myths for them. (they are teenagers now) And generally try to let them know how I feel about sex and our family values.
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#124 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sisteeesmama View Post
I guess.

But I can prety much guarantee that whatever you think of Hugh Hefnef, he is not selling porn that was made using women who are being coerced in ways other than say flattery or generally socially accepted means.
Read Ordeal. Then revisit the idea that what appears to be reputable porn must be as it appears. No, I don't think good old Hef or whoever is in any respect holding women at gunpoint, or that most of the models who appear therein have someone behind the scenes pulling their strings. But even once is too much. We're not talking about a tradeoff for a necessity, we're talking a tradeoff for a voyeuristic indulgence. The threshold for tolerance of damage done should dramatically drop in such a case.
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#125 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:19 PM
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Fatally flawed? That's a bit harsh! How about, "I disagree with you, because...
I didn't say that, although it is true, because your argument is...fatally flawed.

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Yes, human trafficking is a crime--one which, especially in the former USSR and Asia is not even hindered by law enforcement--or, really, by societal convention. And if you don't think our North American society approves of the selling of human bodies, what do you consider prostitution to be? Perhaps "renting" another person? Even stripping is the act of displaying one's body for temporary hire. If there is money involved (and in porn, human trafficking and even street prostitution, there's a LOT of money involved), people are being sold--and thereby, bought. And men are, by and large, the buyers.
Um, and this is why your argument is fatally flawed. The fact that human trafficking is done in secret, to the point of the victims being smuggled across borders, and is illegal immediately puts an end to your statement that society as a whole accepts it. Yes, some nations do have corruption and internal issues that make it possible for it to occur, but it is still not acceptable.
Also, I do believe that prostitution is illegal in most of North America, so again, you are way off base.

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As for the second part of your accusation, you have misunderstood my argument. (Although frankly, ignorance is no defense on the part of a sex consumer.) My argument was: if--as all indicators, economic, health, political, seem to point to-- women are not equal to men in our society, then women cannot truly consent to the selling of their bodies/images. This logic is the basis of the statuatory rape law, as well as the prohibition against child pornography. Truly, I wish women didn't require such protection, but they do.
Then by extension you are saying women really can't consent to anything. While I agree that equality is still an issue we need to fight for, I will have to say "thanks but no thanks" to the thought that I cannot make my own decisions.


--Andrea, in NS, feeling that the debate is gettin' ugly fast[/QUOTE]
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#126 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:20 PM
 
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I don't think I am emotionally damaged - just different from the majority of women...I actually think I am very healthy emotionally wise. I'm a happily married mommy who just happens to enjoy the occasional dirty movie .
Well, this is OT, but I find it hard to believe that you have never had your emotions damaged in some way, that you don't carry any baggage, but if not well hen good for you! You've made it thus far unscathed, that's pretty much a miracle IMO and you should be quite grateful!
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#127 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:21 PM
 
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I think this is an incredibly paternalistic argument, the very opposite of feminism, actually, as well as a very slippery slope. If women can't consent to work in the sex industry, what else can't they consent to because our society is a patriarchy? Using your logic, an argument could be made that we can't consent to marriage or children, either.
.
My understanding of feminism is the belief that women and men should be treated equally by society, and the working towards that eventual goal. I'm not sure why it is "unfeminist" to point out that our society is male-dominated. I think we can all agree that women having control of their bodies is a good thing--I fear we differ on whether it is currently true or not. But I refuse to continue to be accused of being anti-feminist, or anti-woman.

I am not alone in my beliefs that the sex industry is harmful to women and children. I in no way have implied that women are incapable of thought, or that sexually abused women are "damaged" or worthless, or indeed that there should be shame attached to sex workers--these hurtful remarks are being misattributed to me. I cannot expect (nor would I want) everyone to agree with me, but I can expect to be treated with respect in this discussion, and so...

Roger out.


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#128 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:22 PM
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Well, this is OT, but I find it hard to believe that you have never had your emotions damaged in some way, that you don't carry any baggage, but if not well hen good for you! You've made it thus far unscathed, that's pretty much a miracle IMO and you should be quite grateful!
Having your "emotions damaged" and being "emotionally damaged" seem like two very, very different concepts to me.
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#129 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:23 PM
 
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It horrifies me that there are people forced into sexual slavery (both on camera and otherwise).
Why? If sex is no more different/special/valued than any other activity or commodity, why would sexual slavery be worse than regular slavery or forced labor? You can't just decide sex is important when it's forced but not when it's not.
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I don't think selling sex is selling people. I think it's selling labor, just like I sold my labor when I worked at a grocery store.
Do you think that rape should be a separate legal charge different from assault? If you think selling sex is no different than selling other labor, you can't really argue that forcing sex is any different from assault or any other regular non sexual violence, right?

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#130 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:25 PM
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Why? If sex is no more different/special/valued than any other activity or commodity, why would sexual slavery be worse than regular slavery or forced labor? You can't just decide sex is important when it's forced but not when it's not.
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the poster would also be horrified by slavery. I know I am, be it sexual or otherwise.
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#131 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:25 PM
 
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I am not alone in my beliefs that the sex industry is harmful to women and children.
I daresay it's damaging to men, as well. I don't think it's possible to consent to your own violation/exploitation. Just like it's not okay to be racist against your own racial group.

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#132 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:26 PM
 
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I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the poster would also be horrified by slavery. I know I am, be it sexual or otherwise.
Of course, as would I. But do you not see them as different?

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#133 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:28 PM
 
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Having your "emotions damaged" and being "emotionally damaged" seem like two very, very different concepts to me.
What are the "very, very" different concepts at play here that I am missing?
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#134 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:32 PM
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Of course, as would I. But do you not see them as different?
When all is said and done, not really, no.
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#135 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:33 PM
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What are the "very, very" different concepts at play here that I am missing?
Start with permanent versus temporary.
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#136 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:34 PM
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I daresay it's damaging to men, as well. I don't think it's possible to consent to your own violation/exploitation. Just like it's not okay to be racist against your own racial group.
If someone truly consents, are they really being violated or exploited?
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#137 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:35 PM
 
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I daresay it's damaging to men, as well. I don't think it's possible to consent to your own violation/exploitation. Just like it's not okay to be racist against your own racial group.
Hm. well, I guess it would depend on if you actually agreed that you were being exploited. I think the whole agreeing to it and getting paid for it part sort of nullifies the the exploitation part, but that's just me.

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Of course, as would I. But do you not see them as different?
Only by degrees. I'm just as horrified by forced physical labor as I am by forced sex. I've only experienced one of them, but it's not like I'd say say "wow, I really wish someone had forced me into hard labor instead of raping me, since rape is so much worse!"
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#138 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 03:49 PM
 
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Well, this is OT, but I find it hard to believe that you have never had your emotions damaged in some way, that you don't carry any baggage, but if not well hen good for you! You've made it thus far unscathed, that's pretty much a miracle IMO and you should be quite grateful!
I don't want to get too far OT either but I had just wanted to reply to what seemed like a response to what I had said previoulsy...Maybe I misunderstood? Anyway...I certainly carry baggage but, I don't think it affects my emotions. I feel happy when I should, sad when I should, scared when I should so on and so forth. There have certainly been bad things that have happened to me but I think my emotional response to those things is normal and healthy. I don't see that as a miracle - just normal healing with time. While I agree that my lack of attachting emotions to sex is unusual, I don't think it is evidence of damage. I frankly don't understand why people do attach emotions and all the other society conventions to it...but, that would be a whole other thread I think .

In a way though - I think that maybe the emotional aspect does have something to do with the different views expressed here? This is just a guess but, I think maybe that those who feel more emotions during sex are less likely to enjoy porn and those that feel less emotions during sex are more likely to enjoy porn? I wonder if we took two polls, how they would correlate? I guess MDC isn't really the place for that though since there really isn't a sex discussion forum category. I wish there was though!
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#139 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 04:50 PM
 
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I'm now uncomfortable with porn because from what I understand, these days what makes porn "better" is how violent and/or humiliating the acts appear to be to women.
seriously, there are laws in place about violence in porn and unless you're seriously into the black market or have some "friends" into that stuff all the porn i've ever seen has been totally non-violent, even the more non-mainstream stuff i've seen.

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While I agree that my lack of attachting emotions to sex is unusual, I don't think it is evidence of damage. I frankly don't understand why people do attach emotions and all the other society conventions to it...but, that would be a whole other thread I think .

In a way though - I think that maybe the emotional aspect does have something to do with the different views expressed here? This is just a guess but, I think maybe that those who feel more emotions during sex are less likely to enjoy porn and those that feel less emotions during sex are more likely to enjoy porn? I wonder if we took two polls, how they would correlate? I guess MDC isn't really the place for that though since there really isn't a sex discussion forum category. I wish there was though!
i think this is totally true! honestly, i think our society is very puritan in it's views on sex BUT maybe that's because i'm another person that doesn't attach much emotion to sex at all and i have a hard time seeing why sex brings up all these issues.

and i have heard the idea that women can't consent in a patriarchal society... i'm not sure it resonates with me, but i can see how your choices are already dictated by what society deems acceptable.

like, how easy would it be to live as a lesbian couple in the a rural area? where i live, it would be pretty difficult, just because quite a few of the people that live out here deem that very unacceptable (did i mention we're moving soon?) so, that option might still be a choice but it's not really a very valid choice because of the difficulties inherent in it.

eh. who needs a signature?
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#140 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 05:24 PM
 
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So, I think that this has been a very interesting conversation, and I really appreciate the willingness of people on both sides to engage in a complicated and sometimes contentious issue with respect for each other.

However, we are now REALLY off topic from the original question, and I am going to propose that maybe it's time to all agree to disagree, and move on to other threads.

Thanks, everyone, for giving me a lot to think about.

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#141 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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After reading through all of these (since this was my thread ) I've decided to come clean about something. So, please, be nice because I have NEVER told this to anyone before (so why not do it on a public forum, eh?)..

So, when I was 16, homeless and hungry I gave a man a handjob. He drove by, picked me up, I willingly got in, I even smiled. I gave him his 'service' and he gave my $10.

I wasn't 'forced' or kidnapped, but I can't even describe all of the feelings that came after. I tried to kill myself, I put myself into riskier situations. I was even kidnapped/raped at gunpoint for three days a few months later.

Unfortunetely, I had no other [real] options. And I am forever damaged because of that one decision to make money doing something that most of my other homeless friends did. A lot of them made porn too (most of us were under 18).

Anyway- I appeared happy and I actually was pretty healthy (looking), but I do not consider what I did to be fully conscentual..

Sorry that strayed a bit, just providing another [real-life] side to this discussion..

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#142 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 05:37 PM
 
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Vegemamato - I am so sorry for what you went through - it sounds like a very rough time for you. I hope that your situation is better now and that you are happy and healthy!

I think I agree with Angela, the thread has gotten very OP and I don't think either side will convince the other to change views. I'm going to go ahead and bow out now. I also want to thank everyone for the honest discussions that did not end up exploding. So many threads on here end up being so hurtful and I think we all did a great job of keeping this one friendly while discussing something that clearly has deep meanings to many people. I'm guessing the mods were probably watching this one pretty closely but we didn't get shut down - yay!
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#143 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Vegemamato - I am so sorry for what you went through - it sounds like a very rough time for you. I hope that your situation is better now and that you are happy and healthy!

I think I agree with Angela, the thread has gotten very OP and I don't think either side will convince the other to change views. I'm going to go ahead and bow out now. I also want to thank everyone for the honest discussions that did not end up exploding. So many threads on here end up being so hurtful and I think we all did a great job of keeping this one friendly while discussing something that clearly has deep meanings to many people. I'm guessing the mods were probably watching this one pretty closely but we didn't get shut down - yay!
Thank you- I am still dealing with many issues reguarding my past.. and this thread has actually helpe me a lot in terms of this.

I really enjoyed the discussion here too (which I thought remained very respectful also!)

I appreciate the varying veiws

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#144 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 09:01 PM
 
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But in a romantic comedy I don't expect to see one sex or the other be repeatedly demeaned, at least not more so than the other. Sure, there are standard male/female jokes, but it cuts both ways.

I haven't seen any porn in years, but all that I ever saw had young, attractive women and older, less attractive men, and was always demeaning to the women with a lot of ugly talk.

Hardly my idea of fantasy or escape. To me it was catering to men who didn't like or respect women. Ugh.
Well everything I've seen the women and men are of about the same level of attractiveness, and age. Granted, I think women can do more to improve their appearance with makeup, but otherwise, they're about the same.

I also haven't seen any porn where it's all about demeaning the woman. I know it's out there, but I wouldn't be into that. Though I guess it depends on your definition of demeaning.

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#145 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 09:04 PM
 
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After reading through all of these (since this was my thread ) I've decided to come clean about something. So, please, be nice because I have NEVER told this to anyone before (so why not do it on a public forum, eh?)..

So, when I was 16, homeless and hungry I gave a man a handjob. He drove by, picked me up, I willingly got in, I even smiled. I gave him his 'service' and he gave my $10.

I wasn't 'forced' or kidnapped, but I can't even describe all of the feelings that came after. I tried to kill myself, I put myself into riskier situations. I was even kidnapped/raped at gunpoint for three days a few months later.

Unfortunetely, I had no other [real] options. And I am forever damaged because of that one decision to make money doing something that most of my other homeless friends did. A lot of them made porn too (most of us were under 18).

Anyway- I appeared happy and I actually was pretty healthy (looking), but I do not consider what I did to be fully conscentual..

Sorry that strayed a bit, just providing another [real-life] side to this discussion..
I wonder how much of this had to do with the fact that you were a child?

I ask because at this point, if I were homeless or my kids were hungry, I know I could easily prostitute myself without a backward glance or regret. It would be icky, of course, but I really doubt it would have any significant emotional impact on me.

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#146 of 148 Old 05-08-2009, 09:24 PM
 
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Well everything I've seen the women and men are of about the same level of attractiveness, and age. Granted, I think women can do more to improve their appearance with makeup, but otherwise, they're about the same.

I also haven't seen any porn where it's all about demeaning the woman. I know it's out there, but I wouldn't be into that. Though I guess it depends on your definition of demeaning.
I don't think I can describe it without violating the UA.

But apparently there are many different kinds out there and I have been unfortunate enough to have seen the bottom of the barrel. I've never seen any that was remotely sexy, just gross.

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#147 of 148 Old 05-09-2009, 05:54 PM
 
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it'snot like I'd say say "wow, I really wish someone had forced me into hard labor instead of raping me, since rape is so much worse!"

If those were my only two options, I would certainly, without a doubt, choose forced hard labor over rape!! 1000 times over.

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#148 of 148 Old 05-09-2009, 08:45 PM
 
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Nope, I still feel the same about it. I have one daughter and one son.
same here.

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