WWYD...Neighbor told DS she wants to have SEX with Him!! - Page 6 - Mothering Forums

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#151 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hotmamacita View Post
Please tell the parent(s). They need to know truth regardless of how you think they will process it.
Yes. Maybe going to just one? Like maybe pull the mother aside and just say "you know this and this happened and I just wanted to let you know my son was uncomfortable". I wouldn't say "and that is a potential sign of abuse" or anything but just let her/him/them know what happened.

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#152 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 02:32 PM
 
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so many of us identify or relate to something here.
Sometimes it's hard to deal with anything about sex, and it's always hard to know what to do about other people's kids.
You have your instincts pulling at you, and other forces which may cloud or squash your instincts.
On one hand, you feel you ought to speak to the girl's parents. On the other hand, if the child might be suffering abuse, you obviously don't want to risk making it worse for her.
I know I haven't said anything helpful here. But I think if you are genuinely concerned for the little girl, you should weasel & wedge yourself deeper into her life. For one thing, be very kind to her, avoid reprimanding her, and quietly gain her trust. She may begin telling you things which explain her behavior. A similar approach may work with her parents. Even if they aren't people you'd normally make friends with, do your best to befriend them. Smile and wave a lot, find things to compliment them about, invite them for a barbecue. I know it sounds dumb, but if you get to know everyone quite well, you may gain some insights. You may be able to help. If this little girl is being hurt at home, she needs an adult she can trust. Look in your heart, mama. Your guts have already told you, this adult might have to be you.
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#153 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 03:02 PM
 
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Yes, maybe this is a little weird, maybe. But it's not outside the realm of normal 5-6 year old behavior.
This just makes me want to cry.

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#154 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 03:24 PM
 
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And like i said, i was never abused or anything...so just make sure you don't jump to conclusions
I think jumping to conclusions is much better than turning away when we see potential abuse. I was abused as a child. At least 3 mandated reporters knew of the abuse - 2 because I told them outright - and *none* of them did anything. Looking back, I suspect others knew - neighbors, some close family friends, certainly relatives - but again, they didn't do anything. Yes, that colors my view of what I see when it comes to children, but it's far more harmful to allow a child to continue in an abusive situation than to upset someone by mentioning inappropriate behavior.

As for this specific girl, I'd agree with the list lorax posted - that these comments/behaviors are potentially signs of abuse but not absolutely. I personally wouldn't want to live in the places where many of you seem to be. My children are 2 and 4, and the most controversial issues we've had with friends are over ones who get to have a TV in their bedroom and stay up really late. DS and I have been over appropriateness in terms of bodies, and I get a detailed story of the conversations he had at preschool daily. Nothing remotely sexual has come up, so I find the idea that this behavior is perfectly normal a bit of a stretch.

It's us: DH , DS ; DD ; and me . Also there's the . And the 3 . I . Oh, and .
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#155 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 03:40 PM
 
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For people who think her behavior is on the second list, what specifically is where on that list? I'm not seeing it.

"Spanking is only OK if it's adults in the bedroom" isn't about children and isn't explicitly sexual. "I want to have sex with you" isn't even explicitly sexual. If she had said explicitly what she wanted to do, that would be, but she didn't. Pulling up her top isn't "Repeated, coercive pulling down of pants or skirts of others". Her behavior seems like it's hardly even in the first list. She told the boy she wanted to have sex with him, which is non-coercive sexual talk between friends. No one knows if she knew what "have sex" means, as what specifically she wanted to do wasn't stated explicitly. And she didn't tell him he had to do anything, she said what she wanted, so it wasn't coercive.

I wouldn't ignore red flags if I saw them, I'm just not seeing them, and I don't see anything that fits into the second category in that list either.

Edited to add - it sounds like a little girl who doesn't get enough supervision and watches TV that is too mature to her.
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#156 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 03:40 PM
 
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My own mother knew about my abuse and did nothing. Her boyfriend was more important to her. She still talked to him until recently when she lost touch.

So yes basically I agree with the above and also averlee you are right on here...
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You may be able to help. If this little girl is being hurt at home, she needs an adult she can trust. Look in your heart, mama. Your guts have already told you, this adult might have to be you.

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#157 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:02 PM
 
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Gee, thanks.

You don't know me. If you did you would know that my house is where all the kids play. I watch the whole pack of neighbor kids day in and day out. We also share our garden harvest and with our neighbors and cook for all the kids. We are excellent neighbors.

I do not understand what I have said that would make you say that about me. Do you not believe that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive? How can you be so sure that I am wrong in my interpretation of this girl, who I see nearly every day? This has been an escalating pattern of behavior over the past few weeks. I am not saying that anything is going wrong for her, but I have a really bad gut feeling about it. I guess I should just ignore that feeling?

I really don;t understand WHAT I have done wrong here. I also don't understand what this has to do with your daughter
My post that you quoted was in response to something someone else said about you as a neighbour. Based on her interpretation, I wouldn't want you for a neighbour.

Bad gut feelings are bad gut feelings. I have more respect for that than anything else you've said, to be honest.

What is has to do with my daughter is that I don't want my neighbours talking about her looking like a little stripper when she does her sexy poses and stuff. I don't even know where she picked that stuff up, but the odds of it being through sexual abuse are vanishingly small (she's with us pretty much 24/7).

Bad gut feelings are one thing. But, as I've said repeatedly, I don't see the things you've posted about (aside from the little brother) as red flags of any kind and a couple of them apply directly to my dd. Therefore, I'm forced to assume that if you were my neighbour, you'd also be talking about my dd's "stripper like" behaviour and "strutting" and "miniature super model" looks (dd is also one of those kids who never really looked like a baby - she has quite an adult little face, in many ways). It creeps me out.

And, no - I do not believe that a 5 year old can be "intentionally seductive", although I know what you mean when you say it. Once again, I find the way you phrase it really offensive to the 5 year old in question.

FWIW: A guy got off on molestation charges here years ago, because the judge felt that the victim was behaving in a provocative manner. She was three. I have serious problems with characterizing children's behaviour in these terms.

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#158 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
SB~ I have always enjoyed your posts but in this case I just have to scratch my head. It just seems like you are unable to separate your DD from this girl and these circumstances. You keep bringing up that your DD this or that and are unable to step back and look at the entire picture. Thats fine. We deal with what we know. What I fail to understand is why the recommendation to just be cautious is so outlandish to some people here. I. Don't. Get. It.
Why should I separate my dd? It's obvious that several of you, were you my neighbours, would be speculating about what kind of vile things were going on in my home, behind closed doors. You'll all turn around and claim you're not saying that, but you are.

If the OP has a gut feeling that something's wrong, I can respect that. If she mentioned that in her first post, I must have missed it. I wasn't basing my comments on gut feelings at all. I was basing my comments on a short list of behaviour that doesn't raise any red flags with me, that applies to a great extent to my dd, and that has resulted in labels and descriptions that turn my stomach being applied to a 5 year old girl.

I also just looked at the list someone posted, and most of this girl's behaviour doesn't fit into the second or third list, imo. It's either first list (eg. the lifting her top) or not there at all. So, again - where are the red flags?

I also have no idea what "be cautious" even means. She's already monitoring this girl's behaviour. So, what's she supposed to do now?

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#159 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:12 PM
 
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FWIW: A guy got off on molestation charges here years ago, because the judge felt that the victim was behaving in a provocative manner. She was three. I have serious problems with characterizing children's behaviour in these terms.
Ok WTF????? See I have no problem with using those terms because hey let's call a duck a duck if that what it appears to be it is reasonable to describe it that way, IMO (not to say it IS what is going on but to use those terms to describe something isn't an issue for me). But what in the world would posses a judge to think that a GROWN MAN is ever in the right in taking something in a sexual manner from a CHILD????? A toddler, even. That makes no sense. None. It is the old school train of thought, IMO. "oh he couldn't help himself because she was flaunting it" :Puke There is no excuse for that. To use the wording as an excuse is.... ridiculous (the judge, not you). I don't care if she had nipple tassels on and bright red platform heels and was doing a striptease to make Carmen Electra jealous she is 3 for crying out loud. That's just........ disgusting because it doesn't surpise me in the least.

The truth is children can and do behave sexually out of innocence in general because it is a part of growing up (sometimes abuse is involved but not always which I'm pretty sure we have established on this thread ) but I am failing to see how that excuses an adult taking advantage of it.

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#160 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:14 PM
 
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Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. I am not surprised that she is more the middle category. That is what I was thinking this whole time. Potential red flags.
She's what? How is she in the middle category?

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#161 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:19 PM
 
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SB~ we're just going to keep going in circles because obviously you are offended. Sorry you are. This isn't about you or your DD. It's not about the general sexual actions of children in innocence. If you can't see the red flags ok that's fine. We have pointed them out and have shared stories of cases where this girl's behavior has indeed shown an issue. There is not much more to be said. It's just going to keep on circling 'round and 'round. So you can't see it. Alrighty then. Still there have been more than just a few of us who can. And still we are not suggesting anything more than the OP keeping an eye on things. Not only that but when abuse was suggested it wasn't automatically by the parents so again not seeing your issue. But I am willing to put that down as another "agree to disagree". It happens.

Have a great weekend!

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#162 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:21 PM
 
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Ok WTF????? See I have no problem with using those terms because hey let's call a duck a duck if that what it appears to be it is reasonable to describe it that way, IMO (not to say it IS what is going on but to use those terms to describe something isn't an issue for me). But what in the world would posses a judge to think that a GROWN MAN is ever in the right in taking something in a sexual manner from a CHILD????? A toddler, even. That makes no sense. None. It is the old school train of thought, IMO. "oh he couldn't help himself because she was flaunting it" :Puke There is no excuse for that. To use the wording as an excuse is.... ridiculous (the judge, not you). I don't care if she had nipple tassels on and bright red platform heels and was doing a striptease to make Carmen Electra jealous she is 3 for crying out loud. That's just........ disgusting because it doesn't surpise me in the least.

The truth is children can and do behave sexually out of innocence in general because it is a part of growing up (sometimes abuse is involved but not always which I'm pretty sure we have established on this thread ) but I am failing to see how that excuses an adult taking advantage of it.
Well, most of Vancouver wanted the judge lynched, so I think most rational people tend to agree with you, yk? I honestly found myself wondering if he's a deviant himself. (This was a long time ago, and I think he retired shortly after that, as there was a s**t storm of negative public sentiment.)

Anyway...that's some of where my issues with the language are coming from. Whether or not this girl has been sexually abused in any way (and I'm fairly sure she's at least seen tv shows or movies that she shouldn't have, but maybe/probably not porn - where that would fall on the abuse spectrum is a little subjective, I think), I have major problems with the language the OP (and some other posters) has used about her. My personal opinion is that it contributes to a very warped view of childhood sexuality, and it bothers me immensely. Some of that was shaped by the case I mentioned above, but it's also a feeling I've had for a very long time (30 years, maybe?) for other reasons. If a child is acting in an overly adult sexual fashion, let's call it that...not "seductive", "like a stripper", etc. That language applied to a child's sexuality really bothers me, and I do think it contributes to some screwy ways of looking at children who are exploring sexuality.

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#163 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:25 PM
 
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Do you not believe that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive?
I don't think that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive, because I don't think a 5 year old knows what it means to seduce.
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#164 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:26 PM
 
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Well, most of Vancouver wanted the judge lynched, so I think most rational people tend to agree with you, yk? I honestly found myself wondering if he's a deviant himself. (This was a long time ago, and I think he retired shortly after that, as there was a s**t storm of negative public sentiment.)
The judges stance is not too uncommon among the older generation. I know from stories from my mother and aunt when they were molested the man told people they had flaunted it and there were more than a few people that were like "oh ok then that makes perfect sense" :
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Anyway...that's some of where my issues with the language are coming from. Whether or not this girl has been sexually abused in any way (and I'm fairly sure she's at least seen tv shows or movies that she shouldn't have, but maybe/probably not porn - where that would fall on the abuse spectrum is a little subjective, I think), I have major problems with the language the OP (and some other posters) has used about her. My personal opinion is that it contributes to a very warped view of childhood sexuality, and it bothers me immensely. Some of that was shaped by the case I mentioned above, but it's also a feeling I've had for a very long time (30 years, maybe?) for other reasons. If a child is acting in an overly adult sexual fashion, let's call it that...not "seductive", "like a stripper", etc. That language applied to a child's sexuality really bothers me, and I do think it contributes to some screwy ways of looking at children who are exploring sexuality.
I can understand the discomfort but when people are attempting to describe things they use wording they know, ykwim? That's why in describing it I have no issue. Now if the child was being labeled as such or being called a name like that then yeah that's a different issue. But it's different in saying "she was acting like a stripper" and "she is no better than a little stripper" or something like that.

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#165 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:29 PM
 
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I don't think that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive, because I don't think a 5 year old knows what it means to seduce.
Yes very true but I also do think a 5 year old can act seductive in an innocent sense for several reasons (abuse, seeing it on TV, watching a friend/family member, and on and on) but all coming down to mimicking in order to explore his/her sexuality, boundaries, etc.

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#166 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 04:53 PM
 
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It's so hard to judge over the internet the "tone" of something we didn't see. Could everything added together point to something "not right" going on? Of course it is a possibility. But no one thing really sounds like it definitely is an issue in terms of sex. The whole young kids "supervising" toddlers thing is a whole other thing. That IS scary to me b/c of cars and such.
Anyway, I was posting b/c I actually did ask my (boy) best friend if he wanted to have sex when I was 6/7. I had just learned about it from my mom. And while she talked about it being for adults or married people or something, it didn't really occur to her to make a point about it not being something to do as a child. So I asked my friend if he knew what sex was and when he didn't I told him what it was and asked if he wanted to try it. He said no, he'd rather keep playing with the Legos. Sometime later, but within the same summer or so, I also asked my "boyfriend" if he wanted to have sex (he already knew what it was) and he said "maybe later" but we got too busy doing other stuff and never got around to it.
I had not been abused, and my parents were not overly sexual around the house, I hadn't seen any risqué TV or movies. I was just the type that wanted to try everything I'd ever heard about. I wasn't acting on any sort of lust-type feelings, I was just super curious.
I asking to have sex in a more "dirty talk" way with specific actions mentioned, "I want to unbutton your pants, etc. etc." would be more indicative of something going on. (Maybe not abuse, but exposure to too much adult material.)
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#167 of 171 Old 06-05-2009, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive, because I don't think a 5 year old knows what it means to seduce.
Not a healthy 5 year old, but a kid who has endured a lot of sexual abuse? I think they could. I think in really sad situations where the child is emotionally neglected on top of being sexually abused they might learn to be seductive as a coping mechanism. I have certainly seen that with girls as young as 7, so 5.5 doesn't seem impossible. Uncommon, I would certainly hope so!

Not that I am saying that is the case with this girl. I am really on the fence about whether she is doing anything abnormal considering she does seem to watch a lot of mature TV and Movies.
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#168 of 171 Old 06-07-2009, 11:22 AM
 
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It doesn't sound like she will get beaten. Spanking isn't okay, remember? Unless it's adults in the bedroom...

I just wanted to share a personal story, before anyone calls schools or cps or the neighborhood watch. When I was probably about six or seven I "played doctor" with the neighborhood kids. All of us were willing participants (if anything, I was one of the more reluctant kids) engaging in what I now realize is totally normal exploratory play. This went on for a couple of weeks, and took place in a variety of ways, until one of the girls felt guilty and told her mom. My mom was a pot-smoking hippie and poor, and when all of the neighborhood moms got together to freak out about what had been going on, she wasn't invited to the party. Guess who got blamed for the whole thing? Me. They all decided that I was oversexed and probably abused. I became the neighborhood social pariah. They called the school, and all of my teachers, one by one, started asking me if I was being abused by my stepfather. Everyone- the whole town, adults and children- found out. My mom was the only person who assured me that sex play was normal and that she had done it too, and so had all of my teachers and everyone else, and they were just making a big deal out of it because they wanted to point fingers. The experience was so utterly humiliating that I moved to another town and deemed this to be my biggest, deepest, darkest secret until I was in my twenties.
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#169 of 171 Old 06-07-2009, 12:18 PM
 
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I have worked with pre school and school age kids (2 to 12 year olds).

I have had to discuss phrases and physical situations with many parents over the years. Not just with pre k, but also with some of my 5th and 6th graders. It is never easy and it won't ever be easy to discuss these things with other parents.

Some parents took it well and was equally concerned, while other parents told me to mind my own business or brushed it off as "kids will be kids".

Kids are going to be curious. They will experiement. You will see Johnny kissing Sue on the lips at age 5. You will see Johnny and Sue asking questions about their body, about babies and you will have them repeat some words they hear from their parents. (You know those commericals aired a few years ago where the kids would say something embarressing to strangers while the parent is mortified?) lol. But as someone else posted on here, there is three levels of age appropriateness. You will hear the "show me yours and I will show you mine".

I remember doing that in K school! It wasn't because of sex itself. It was because of curiousity. Why he has a penis and I don't? I even asked my brother, 2 years older than me, to see his because I wanted to figure out how to get one myself. (I thought it was unfair to urinate sitting down). It was harmless thinking, but others could of quickly jump to conclusions that could of turned my family upside down.

I had a fascination with penis's in a non sexual way. I thought they were the coolest thing. All females had vaginas. Boring. I wanted to write my name in snow is all I kept saying lol! But that was my typical curious 5 year old thinking. Luckly I had great understanding teachers and my mom sat me down to explain in detail what makes me different and me to appreciate/like what I have etc.

So these situations should always be taken with care. I think the OP is trying her best to do that and good she is trying to get feedback instead of jumping the gun on it.

When in doubt, talk to a teacher or talk to the doctor. Ask these questions. "Is this normal of this child's age. Given her home background from your view point? Is there something I can do or say? Will this affect my child and how do I explain to my child?".

I have had true sexual abuse cases and I have had just some overly educated kids. One in particular was 8. She knew of every drug (illegal),
"boyfriends" issues between her mom, sister and aunt (abuse, cheating etc) and this girl was very educated on sex (positions to preventives: condoms etc). I feared for this girl. She knew more than I knew in high school.

I had to be very careful with that one as it also had race into it. So I let my boss handle it as I am very uneasy about handling issues that include race or traditions as that is when heated debates arise. (little girl answered my question of how come she knew so much, etc. She explained her family is black and intermix with mexicans on another side. So, it is tradition to know and do these things by 13. Then went on how her dad is in jail, how her mom thinks it is good she is exposed to the "real world" and accepting her family for who they are etc).

I have had 5th graders in the office confiding that they might be pregnant to the nurse. Sadly, I only remember one actually being pregnant. No abuse at home (good Christian family), she just wanted to impress a guy she had a crush on (6th grader). He came from a family...lets say his father is in prison for beating/raping his mom infront of him and he thinks the world of his dad. My manager was pushing for therapy as to our surprise, he wasn't recieving any.

Another 5th grader was being explained the birds and bee's in detail (her mom opt out on sex ed in 5th grade) as the mom was expecting. The girl thought if her mom is expecting, she might be too as they got their period about the same time. (to say the little details I knew on this situation). Some parents are not able to explain clearly or have the ability to.

With this 5 year old girl, the possibilities are out there on what could exactly be going on. Innocent or could very well be a red flag something inappropriate is going on.

It does matter their thought process, but it shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether you discuss this with her parents or not.

Every child is being raised differently. Some are raised with parental growth development talks while others base their teachings off of radio, tv or peers.

This girl is set up for some sexual peer pressure and future sexual situations. You do have a right to be concerned for this little girl. You are a responsible loving parent who has a gut feeling something isn't right. I don't blame you for wanting to protect this little girl as much as you want to protect your little boy.

No one should be questioning or belitting you for your concerns. It is better to be concern than to brush it off. That is how children go un-detected when they are abused, raped or exposed to things way too soon.

You are not telling them how to parent. You are expressing concern for what she has said to your son.

I do suggest you discuss this with her parents. At least letting them know she asked for sex and a simple question of "Does she know what sex is, so my son can tell her no with out causing any confusion as he is begining to know what it is as well etc?".

If these parents are immature and get upset, I think it is a clear sign to keep your son away from play dates. As far as inappropriate watching (5 year old watching her 2 year old sibling), that would be in the hands of CPS at that point. If you see something or hear something (not rumor), you can report it.

Sometimes you are only limited to your child as there is only so much you can do. Only prayer is your next step she will be okay.
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#170 of 171 Old 06-07-2009, 04:52 PM
 
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While I agree you can't be too careful - so many kids are sexually abused - I was obsessed with sex as young child and I said such things to my friends. There was never any inappropriate touching (did kiss a lot of friends when I was little, but no tongue!) and I wasn't sexually active until age 19. So.. could be a big deal, could mean nothing, depends on the kid. It's normal IMO for children to be curious about sex and say such things, it's even normal to be sexual, but the repercussions of this behavior can be seriously negative so it's best to supervise.

ETA: To those who would wonder how kids know about this stuff.. do you remember being a kid?? Personally I was raised in conservative Christian home, didn't even have a tv for years and didn't see a PG-13 movie til after I was 13.. the only thing I knew about sex was how babies were made, saw animals mating a few times and what I heard from other kids. That was enough to instill a keen interest! You should have seen my kindergarten! We pretended to be dogs and humped each other at recess, all practiced the curse words we knew and trying to hold up our middle fingers, rumors were rife (Andy poked Clarissa in the bellybutton!! The bellybutton is where you have sex and babies come out!!!), most of us paired up into GFs and BFs... ages 4-6 are often very sexual, after that boys and girls decide the other is gross and settle down until puberty. My parents had absolutely no idea about any of this.
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#171 of 171 Old 06-07-2009, 05:57 PM
 
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Did you talk to the mom?

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