Help me sort out my reaction to a mainstream mama - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 97 Old 06-11-2009, 04:23 PM
 
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[QUOTE=babymommy2;13918473]Think of all the posts you have read on here about how people feel judged or hear snide comments from others becasue they BF a 2 year old or refuse TV! [QUOTE]

I do feel for the moms who get snide comments over doing the things I place a high value in like extended breastfeeding(even though I couldn't EBF I still value it highly and would be bothered by someone having a cavalier attitude towards BFing. I have very high standards, but its because I believe there is a way to treat a child and there are concrete ways not to. I don't feel bad about that at all. I would not feel bad being judgemental about certain behaviors I view as abusive to children, either. Over all I think people under-value children in this society and I am personally tired of hearing about how I am supposed to believe that at the heart of it we all love our kids. That just isn't true. IT would be nice, but it's just not. And even then, when you do love them IMO love is not enough. IT takes more than just love to raise a child well.


All that said. I have learned something from this thread and some recent experiences. I would not stop being friends with an exsisting best friend over a lot of the parenting choices mentioned in this thread. I would, however, not choose to start a new one with someone who made choices I didn't agree with. Like or not, that's how I feel.


Sometimes judgement is warranted. It just hurts my heart to much to think about the awful way children are treated in the name of parenting. PArenting is a privelege and with that comes.....yep, you guessed it, responsibility.

My 2 cents.
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#62 of 97 Old 06-11-2009, 04:37 PM
 
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Interesting thread. I think some tolerance could be had.

For those of you who refuse to be friends with children who are circed, how do you go about this? Do you check everyone's diaper before accepting a playdate? I just find this so odd, because my son is very young, and I have never had any mother ask me if he is circed or not. I can't imagine how a child's genitals even come into the conversation to determine if they are "friend" material or not....
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#63 of 97 Old 06-11-2009, 04:50 PM
 
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I just moved to a new place and went to a momma group that I found at meet-up. I should preface this story by saying that I have only ever met/hung out with AP mommas. Even my semi-mainstream family members breastfed/co-slept and didn't CIO (except my sister, but we don't talk.)

Well the meet-up group ended up just being me and one other momma. She was elective c-section, formula feeding by choice, CIO. It was shocking to me. I could handle the elective c-section/formula feeding...I get that a lot of times it is just bad information and lack of support that makes people choose these things, but the CIO really struck a horrible cord with me. When she started explaining how she got her LO to STTN, I actually said, "oh no, you didn't let him CIO did you?" and she said well he only really cried for 5 minutes. I left immediately after that exchange. And quite frankly I don't believe her that he only cried for 5 minutes.

I am so angry that she let her LO CIO. I'm angry but I am jealous too. I want my LO to STTN so bad. Isn't this horrible? How do you mommas handle hanging with more mainstream mommas, or do you just not do it? I don't think I can do it again. I feel so yucky right now. I also don't want to be so judgmental, but CIO just seems so wrong to me, I can't help it.
There is a BIG difference between CIO and fussing. My DS fussed for a little bit before going to sleep at times when he was an infant. His little body knew he was tired but didn't want to go to sleep, so he fought it. Finally, he fell asleep.
We never let him scream or cry himself asleep. I don't consider fussing to be CIO. If anyone else does, please explain it to me.
I'm not 100% AP and I'm not 100% mainstream - pleasantly in the middle!
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#64 of 97 Old 06-11-2009, 04:53 PM
 
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Interesting thread. I think some tolerance could be had.
Yes, you are right. Tolerance is wonderful. But I do not have to be friends (or REMAIN friends) with someone that beats their kids. Or neglects them at night to "train" them. To me, that speaks to their core morals, their personality, their lack of intelligence to figure out a better more loving way to take care of their children. I do not have any desire whatsoever to associate with someone like that.

So maybe I'm intolerant. But I also hate wife-beaters. I hate child molesters. And to me, abusing a child by beating them or neglecting them falls into the same playing field. Not for me.

SANDRA, 41 year old VERY laid-back mama to VERY free range kids Brett (16), Justus (11), Autumn (4), and Ayla (1)... four perfect NCB's! :::
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#65 of 97 Old 06-11-2009, 06:13 PM
 
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Interesting thread. I think some tolerance could be had.

For those of you who refuse to be friends with children who are circed, how do you go about this? Do you check everyone's diaper before accepting a playdate? I just find this so odd, because my son is very young, and I have never had any mother ask me if he is circed or not. I can't imagine how a child's genitals even come into the conversation to determine if they are "friend" material or not....
Maybe it's cultural/demographic or as pps said, maybe it's a new mom thing.

Gosh I can't even bump into a complete stranger at the mall without touching on every hostile topic out there.

"oh how cute! is she sttn? how long did it take to sleep train her?"
"she's so big and chubby, what formula do you use?"
"oh you're not stiiiill using that sling are you? she'll never learn to play without you!"
"is he done?" (no! he's a she and i wouldn't have my son "done"!!! arggghhh)

anyways it goes on and on and it's terribly uncomfortable b/c then i either have to pander/avoid their probes thus sacrificing my activism on the issues or i have to start some argument and i get rude looks like i'm a mutant. and apparently so is my child.

i've learned something: those who practice some of the hot button things such as ff, circ, cio etc are extremely fragile and aggressive. they will not leave you alone until you bow down to them or disappear. so i think a PP said it perfectly when she pointed out that she would remain friends w/ someone despite differences, but would not make new friends. if boundaries are already laid down it is easier to maintain respect. i have yet to meet someone willing to keep it at that level when they are different from me.

Mama to expecting Babe 2
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#66 of 97 Old 06-11-2009, 06:19 PM
 
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Well...hmmm...i haven't read the whole thread but here goes.
I don't know that many AP moms IRL. Most of the moms I know are very mainstream, and the one that I am the closest to (she lives in my building) is very, very mainstream. She did/does CIO with both of her children. I don't like it at all and it's not the way I would choose to put my LO to sleep. That said, despite our parenting philosophies being so different, she's a fantastic mother who adores her wonderfully happy children.
eta:As someone upthread mentioned, she's been told by her ped, friends, family etc. that CIO is safe and fine so why wouldn't she think it was?

Sheila, mother to William and Min Hee, wife of David
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#67 of 97 Old 06-11-2009, 06:42 PM
 
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TO me that is just not a good reason/rationalization to say "everyone told her it was safe so why wouldn't she think it was"?

No body told me how to be a mom. Nobody told me that when my child cries it might be a good idea to go to them, soothe them, pick them up etc. That is just natural. It is unnatural to ignore a crying baby. She would have to go against instinct IMO to do that. Why would you do what others told you to do anyway?
Plus, she could know it was bad if you told her it was. Just a thought, I know sometimes it doesn't help to tell people things.
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#68 of 97 Old 06-11-2009, 06:54 PM
 
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Frankly, I am so sensitive to those things that I just don't hang out with mainstream mamas/groups. I think it might be easier for me to do when my son is older (he's only 16mo right now), but right now I really need the support and don't want to put myself or him in those sorts of upsetting situations.

If I were you, I'd seek out local AP groups organized through meetup.com, API, or MDC. I met a lovely bunch of AP mamas through my local chapter of API and we get together every week for our same-aged kids to play, and every month or so for family potlucks. It keeps me sane for sure.

Have you seen the updated user agreement yet?
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#69 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 01:08 AM
 
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i think we are more sensitive as new moms. i feel bad for people who tell they do things like CIO, Circ, Spank etc.. i am easy read... i can't help it.. trust me i have tried. i can smile and nod through FF and other stuff life that but those three i can't stomach.

no i don't blame you. and i don't blame you for asking if she CIO the way you did... i don't think it was a conscious as much as it probably just slipped out. and i might not have believed the five minutes thing either since it was in response to you obvious horror. poor woman probably had no idea someone would be so horrified by it.

circ does change how i feel about people. my incredibly AP circd her son.. i have no idea why... she seemed interested when i told her why i didn't and then thought it was more prone to infection which i said it is not and then she dropped it so i did to. i love her and i know that if she decides it was the wrong choice thats her business and its a hard and private realization. but it did change how i felt a little it just hurts me to think about. mostly i get mad at the doctors who do it b/c i know with 100% certainty she would not have done it if she didn't think it was the best thing to do
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#70 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 02:14 AM
 
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I am so amazed at all the people who will not let their chilldren play with Muslims or Jews. Speaking of human rights! And please don't say that has nothing to do with circumcision. Wow. Remind me to point out our family's religion right away so we don't have to go through a painful friend divorce later when we leave their bigoted booties!

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#71 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 02:17 AM
 
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i firmly believe there is a difference between RIC and religious circumcision. as far as i know most of the Jewish and Muslim Mamas think so too.
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#72 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 02:39 AM
 
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Nobody's making that point here, though. Shouldn't be surprised. Every time it seeps out of the circ board, the same comments come up. I'd rather make a mistake and have my child cry for an hour that expose him to a lifetime of hate. Luckily some can find it in their hearts to do neither!

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#73 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 02:49 AM
 
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i guess i always assume we are referring to RIC. and as far as i am concerned RIC and religious circumcision are not the same thing. the intent, the procedure, the reasoning, the history is all different. i know some people don't differentiate but i would never ever judge a mama who gave her son a bris or.. i can't recall what the muslim ceremony is called... but that is not my place. wow i am having trouble responding b/c to me the really are completely separate things.. ones a religious ceremony that is not done lightly... and one is a cosmetic procedure
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#74 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 03:21 AM
 
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ethnocentric is the word i was looking for. two totally different cultures, totally different things. judging Jews or Muslims for circumcising their children based on RIC in the US is completely ethnocentric.
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#75 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 09:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sisteeesmama View Post
TO me that is just not a good reason/rationalization to say "everyone told her it was safe so why wouldn't she think it was"?

No body told me how to be a mom. Nobody told me that when my child cries it might be a good idea to go to them, soothe them, pick them up etc. That is just natural. It is unnatural to ignore a crying baby. She would have to go against instinct IMO to do that. Why would you do what others told you to do anyway?
Plus, she could know it was bad if you told her it was. Just a thought, I know sometimes it doesn't help to tell people things.
This is sooooo arrogant! How do you possibly know what another Mother's instincts were? Just because you have certain feelings or beliefs doesn't mean that anyone else will possibly feel the same way. The level of intolerance is absolutely staggering!

I have 4 kids. Not one of which has been remotely the same as the one before. In the past I have co-slept, BF, worn my baby, selectively vaxed...I have also let one CIO and fully vaxed others. It is good to know that based on the opinions of some, I am an abusive mother. Thanks for the support...
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#76 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 09:46 AM
 
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i don't think we have instincts about vax particularly. i do think we have the instinct to birth, BF, co sleep (or be near baby), respond to cries etc.

i have a hard time when someone says that they followed their instincts to circ, cio, FF etc. i don't think those things are instinctual. but if i were going to believe someone who told me they were it would be someone on here... so am i totally off? can these things be instinctual?
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#77 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 10:51 AM
 
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I had a similar conversation recently when a mom recommended a book the was clearly a CIO type of book. I said "Well, I've tried some of the techniques in the "No Cry Sleep Solution." I think that let her know where I stood on the matter.
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#78 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 10:59 AM
 
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This is sooooo arrogant! How do you possibly know what another Mother's instincts were? Just because you have certain feelings or beliefs doesn't mean that anyone else will possibly feel the same way. The level of intolerance is absolutely staggering!

I have 4 kids. Not one of which has been remotely the same as the one before. In the past I have co-slept, BF, worn my baby, selectively vaxed...I have also let one CIO and fully vaxed others. It is good to know that based on the opinions of some, I am an abusive mother. Thanks for the support...
nak

yeah i agree with this

not all moms have a natural instinct or the underlying 'common sense.' i think women are really conditioned to distrust and ignore their body and to distrust and second doubt their instinct and their mind.

everything about us....our cycles, our womb, our ability to give birth, our ability to raise children...it is all criticised and overmanaged. that can negatively impact a woman's confidence and lead her to make poor choices which can harm her children.

i have a friend who did cio w/ her first kid. she is a loving and awesome mama. it was simply a situation where she was the product of an entire culture telling women 'you can't do it. you don't know best. here, we'll teach you.' she even said how sick she felt doing it. but it wasn't until the 2nd time around that she was strong enough to do it her way.

that being said, i still couldn't become good friends w/ someone who is in that place of supporting things such as physical discipline, cio and ric. their mindset is in a different place and especially as several people have already highlighted, their negative self-schema and image/security issues can make for a real fight.

Mama to expecting Babe 2
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#79 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 10:59 AM
 
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One of my dearest mom friends circ'ed her son. She's not Jewish or Muslim, it's just something they did. Frankly, I couldn't picture our lives without her or her son, we're all incredibly close and she brings so much love to her child and our children. I don't agree with circumcision in the least, but I if I restricted my friendships to those who made the exact same parenting decisions I do, then I'd have very few friends.

Don't trust anyone under 5! Mom to 3 boys under 5. Blogging to save my sanity.
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#80 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 11:01 AM
 
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some people don't know better and you do the best you can with the information you have at the time. however, i cannot stomach it when people have the information and do it anyway. then its not a mistake or a lack of information.. its just wrong.
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#81 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 11:17 AM
 
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TO me that is just not a good reason/rationalization to say "everyone told her it was safe so why wouldn't she think it was"?

No body told me how to be a mom. Nobody told me that when my child cries it might be a good idea to go to them, soothe them, pick them up etc. That is just natural. It is unnatural to ignore a crying baby. She would have to go against instinct IMO to do that. Why would you do what others told you to do anyway?
Plus, she could know it was bad if you told her it was. Just a thought, I know sometimes it doesn't help to tell people things.
A big problem is lack of support for those who choose not to CIO. It is CONSTANTLY suggested by everyone, including doctors. People trust their docs and friends. In our society we are very often encouraged to ignore our natural instincts. We also live in a country where many, many people are very parent centered instead of child centered. A whole lot of this comes from the pressure women face to stay in the workplace when they have young children and try to juggle everything. We are not a family friendly society.

It is difficult to get past the societal push toward the easier, more convenient way. It's the American way. You go with the crowd unless you do tons of reading and research or have been lucky enough to have been shown another way. The same holds true for formula feeding. It is in your face and waved as the dangling carrot that beckons "This is the easy way and it's still good for your baby. Everyone does it and their babies turn out fine." Then, boom, a few bumps in the road and good-bye nursing, hello formula. For those who have trouble, they have to be very committed to BF to overcome this attitude. I know that I was SO tempted to throw in the towel, but I was lucky. I have a best friend who BF and drove over 200 miles to be with me and help me get started. She was also a big influence on me b/c I knew she struggled with being the only one around who didn't CIO.

I luckily choose the Dr. Sears Baby Book to read while I was pregnant. If I hadn't read that book I don't know exactly where I'd be.

So I guess all I'm saying is that if you try to follow your natural instincts it's an uphill battle all the way.
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#82 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 11:20 AM
 
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We all make different choices and different decisions. As long as my friends genuinely care and love their kids, that's all that matters to me. I shy away from the spankers, but other than that we have friends on all sides of the parenting spectrum.

And you know what? By solely looking at their kids (vast majority are <5) I cannot for the life of me tell any difference between the kids who were AP'd and the ones who are parented mainstream. I'm sure you also know that it's not necessarily a black and white issue. One of my closer friends bf, didn't circ, use cloth diapers but then sleep trains via CIO. I'm pretty sure she knows where I stand on everything yet we get along great. It's not my place to judge her and in the end it would only cause resentment. Instead we remain good friends and keep our judgements to ourselves.

You can live in a world by yourself (because truly everybody's parenting style is different from the next - nobody will ever parent the exact same way you do) or you can set your differences aside and make great friendships.
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#83 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 11:23 AM
 
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i think thats definitely true. for some people it feels easy and we can't understand why it isn't for others. i am confident and a little pig headed.. and when i know i am right its nearly impossible to change my mind (you have to out reason me) some people are not as comfortable telling everybody else to take a hike. and some people how know what they think is right have a hard time standing up for themselves when people argue.
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#84 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 11:37 AM
 
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We all make different choices and different decisions. As long as my friends genuinely care and love their kids, that's all that matters to me. I shy away from the spankers, but other than that we have friends on all sides of the parenting spectrum.

And you know what? By solely looking at their kids (vast majority are <5) I cannot for the life of me tell any difference between the kids who were AP'd and the ones who are parented mainstream. I'm sure you also know that it's not necessarily a black and white issue. One of my closer friends bf, didn't circ, use cloth diapers but then sleep trains via CIO. I'm pretty sure she knows where I stand on everything yet we get along great. It's not my place to judge her and in the end it would only cause resentment. Instead we remain good friends and keep our judgements to ourselves.

You can live in a world by yourself (because truly everybody's parenting style is different from the next - nobody will ever parent the exact same way you do) or you can set your differences aside and make great friendships.
Thank you! That is what I was trying to say...although you said it much more eloquently!
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#85 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 01:29 PM
 
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I know I've piped up before, but I just wanted to say something else.

We're all on a different path in terms of our parenting journey. Some of us are still finding our senses, and some of us are confidently trekking of the mountain. However, we're all trying to learn, and to gain more perspective. Sometimes, our parenting style will literally take us down a different path then a dear friend. I don't think it's that you want to end the friendship, but when you can't find anything to talk about that doesn't end in awkward silence because someone has said something inconsiderate, it's hard not to drift from that.

I personally get so much flack from my IL's for parenting AP, and quite frankly, it's all I can take. I need to be surrounded by supportive, like minded mom's- not because I'm not a confident mom, but because being constantly told I'm wrong, or I don't know what I'm doing is draining, and sad.

It's not intolerant to not want to be around Mom's who parent differently. It's one thing if you are all respectful of each other and your opinions, but it's another when you feel attacked, or get those "looks". I personally HATE being told to let my DS CIO. Hate it. I have one girlfriend who constantly suggests it to me, and I finally had to shut her down and say, "I don't believe in it, there are no studies that prove it actually works permanently, and there are studies that prove it actually does more harm then good." She STILL brings it up. Why would I want to hang out with someone like that?

It's not intolerance, it's just a human matter of wanting to have a safe, supportive network.
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#86 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 01:43 PM
 
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This is sooooo arrogant! How do you possibly know what another Mother's instincts were? Just because you have certain feelings or beliefs doesn't mean that anyone else will possibly feel the same way. The level of intolerance is absolutely staggering!

I have 4 kids. Not one of which has been remotely the same as the one before. In the past I have co-slept, BF, worn my baby, selectively vaxed...I have also let one CIO and fully vaxed others. It is good to know that based on the opinions of some, I am an abusive mother. Thanks for the support...
Well, luckily the people who know me love me and respect me for who I am and why I do what I do, that's good enough for me!

Also, I feel like for me it is about the kids. Kids are in the unfortunate position of not being able to stick up for themselves. They are stuck with what their parents think is right/better/easier etc. They are stuck with whatever treatment they get "out of love" or whatever.
Adults have options, obligations to seek out the truth and do right by their kids as their responsibility dictates.
My feelings are for the kids who have no choices, not the adults who didn't look into their options or follow their intuition or whatever excuse you or they can come up with to justify why they do what they do.

Maybe that is arrogat, but it feels right to me.
I have to be true to me.
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#87 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lisa85 View Post
We all make different choices and different decisions. As long as my friends genuinely care and love their kids, that's all that matters to me. I shy away from the spankers, but other than that we have friends on all sides of the parenting spectrum.

And you know what? By solely looking at their kids (vast majority are <5) I cannot for the life of me tell any difference between the kids who were AP'd and the ones who are parented mainstream. I'm sure you also know that it's not necessarily a black and white issue. One of my closer friends bf, didn't circ, use cloth diapers but then sleep trains via CIO. I'm pretty sure she knows where I stand on everything yet we get along great. It's not my place to judge her and in the end it would only cause resentment. Instead we remain good friends and keep our judgements to ourselves.

It's funny, I was at a friend's place and his two daughters both have kids the same age and he said exactly the same thing you did, completely unprompted. He said one DD homebirthed, no vax, co-sleep, nursed til the kid was 3, self weaned etc. Other DD had the kid in the hospital, vax, bottlefed, slept in the crib etc. He said you'd never be able to tell the kids apart. And really, knowing the amount of kids I do with the vast differences of parenting styles of the parents, they're all pretty much the same. Happy go lucky kids. I think that's a really nice thing, because it just screams to me despite our differences, we all love our kids and teach them love and respect for others and that is probably the most important thing about parenting, no matter the route.

Don't trust anyone under 5! Mom to 3 boys under 5. Blogging to save my sanity.
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#88 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 02:47 PM
 
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I can tell a difference between kids that were beat and kids that weren't.

SANDRA, 41 year old VERY laid-back mama to VERY free range kids Brett (16), Justus (11), Autumn (4), and Ayla (1)... four perfect NCB's! :::
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#89 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by goldingoddess View Post
When she started explaining how she got her LO to STTN, I actually said, "oh no, you didn't let him CIO did you?" and she said well he only really cried for 5 minutes. I left immediately after that exchange. And quite frankly I don't believe her that he only cried for 5 minutes.

.
some babies really do only fuss for 5 minutes. Sometimes you get babies who are so content they really don't scream and cry in the night for hours on end. I hope you didn't judge her to quickly.

A UK Waldorf blogging mama!
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#90 of 97 Old 06-12-2009, 03:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SandraS View Post
I can tell a difference between kids that were beat and kids that weren't.
Honestly, this is why GD is my single biggest AP platform issue. I also can usually tell the difference between kids who have had positive but firm discipline versus those who have either had overly permissive parenting or overly harsh parenting.

cosleeping, breastfeeding, all other AP practices are wonderful and go a long way in creating a deep bond between a child and parent - but honestly, if I had to pick one single thing to convert parents all over the world, and it could only be one thins I would choose GD, hands down over breastfeeding, or cosleeping or vaxing or even circumcision - it reaches every aspect of a child's life, and results in lifelong effects that others may or may not.

I was formula fed, never coslept, mom let me CIO one night for 15 min when I was under a year old and I never cried again (and she is not an exaggerator or liar, so I trust her on that), we didn't use natural healthcare products or organic food (though mom did cook from scratch largely)- so I had a pretty darn mainstream baby and childhood...BUT - BUT - BUT! They were GD to the core...and it has had such a profound impact on my entire life, that it is the single most important parenting choice I personally can think of...many other AP things kind of fade away as children get beyond the baby/toddler years, or at least fade in outward appearances...but GD goes on throughout your child and teen years and even beyond, and IMO is the most far-reaching parenting choice a parent can make.

Sooo, it's the one I'm most vocal about.

So while I can kind of agree that by the time kids get to be 5 years old or so it is difficult to tell the difference outwardly between a formula fed child and a breastfed child, or a CIOd child versus a cosleeping child (though this one usually correlates with AP more than others, too), or a stroller child vs a babyworn child, I can absolutely say in my own personal experience I can often see a difference in kids that have been parented with GD versus other discipline philosphies.

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
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