parenting, to each their own or up for debate? - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: check all options that you think SHOULD be acceptable to comment on.
Breast feeding 74 100.00%
Co sleeping 42 100.00%
baby wearing 44 100.00%
CIO 129 100.00%
Spanking 151 100.00%
introducing Solids 74 100.00%
eating habits post weaning 44 100.00%
Vaccinations (others shouldn't do it) 37 100.00%
Vaccinations (others should do it) 33 100.00%
these and others should be open to discussion. no one has a right to be eternally unchallenged. 103 100.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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#181 of 204 Old 06-19-2009, 08:53 PM
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but there is no "right" that says they have a right to receive medical attention at birth. People (children and adults alike) have a right to medical attention even if they can't pay (i believe) but they ALSO have the right to deny medical attention. and a home birth ISNT denying medical attention. AND birth is not a medical condition.

When it comes to hitting, aside form the right to hit children, there is no right to hit a person against their will All I'm saying is children ARE in fact human, and should be treated as such. I am taking about honoring ACTUAL rights, rights that already exist but just aren't being applied.
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#182 of 204 Old 06-19-2009, 11:20 PM
 
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Again, there were many people like you floating around when there were slaves. Just because you were not a black person who sat in the front of the bus doesnt mean Rosa Parks was wrong for doing so. Even if you think blacks should have remained slaves, then thats fine thats your opinion, but it doesn't mean others cant express their opinion by making effort to change the laws to protect the unprotected.
:

You know, I really wish that you would stop attacking people like this.

It's not really adding to the conversation. NO ONE has said that children are not human. NO ONE has said that they love slavery or that they hate civil rights.

But you are illustrating the point of why I think that sometimes it's better to not discuss parenting choices if you can't be civil, or are not in a place where you can even remotely start from a place of understanding. When you start out talking parenting issues and soon move on to insinuating anyone who doesn't agree with you hates children, thinks they're subhuman, and oh by the way is pro-slavery to boot--the person you're talking to will have (hopefully) turned off their listening from that kind of attack.
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#183 of 204 Old 06-19-2009, 11:24 PM
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I guess I could say mind your own business about me not minding my own business. I am only pointing out the hpocrisy of th system, not attacking anyone. if anyone really feels that way then yeah I guess I am speaking out against what they believe, but otherwise it's just the idea I am speaking against.

you do not know how I approach these people. I am tlaking about the idea that children are less than human, which some people do demonstrate they believe, but that is not indicative of how I help people realize its wrong o hit children and help thm to change their ways if they want to. I am supportive and I am helpful. At the same time I speak up for a good cause.
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#184 of 204 Old 06-19-2009, 11:28 PM
 
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I'm talking about what you are saying to people in the thread.

You're right, I have no idea how you respond to people face to face, most people I know are a little more bold online so perhaps that's a good thing.

But I don't see ANYWHERE that Kirsten said in her posts that she thought children were "not human". And then you go on to say "people like you" in reference to people who agreed with slavery and fought civil rights? I'm sorry, but that is attacking people. It's unkind and unfair.
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#185 of 204 Old 06-19-2009, 11:36 PM
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yes people like her, not her. and yes, there are also people like her who DONT think that way. But people believe in equal human rights for all people don't think that way and that is the distinguishing difference. The people who see think that children not having their rights honored is not the same thing as when the AAs didnt have their rights honored or not the same thing as when the women didnt have their rights honored. And Kirsten is one who thinks its not the same thing. It doesn't mean she agrees with those things, obviously as she said they are not similar things, but it's people who think along those lines (just differently - just in terms of children not being human or deserving of human rights) who are that way. It's noting against KIRSTEN for christ's sake I dont even know kirsten!

but obviously you want to single me out and nit pick at my words, your own form of attack. You have intentionally been unkind and unfair towards me simply because you perceived I was being unkind and unfair towards someone else

but hey, I am going to respect your choice to not mind your own business because I know you are doing it because you think you ar standing up for the rights of someone else. how about that for irony
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#186 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 12:05 PM
 
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Perhaps you are speaking of only hitting a child or something, but from my personal experience, I have had CPS called on me and had to go through an investigation because I choose to HB. They called it neglect and not caring for my child's basic human right to recieve medical attention at birth.

So, I don't think you can just decided what is "right" and what is "wrong" because no two people will think the same. The relative that could not MHOB and caused me so much trouble "thought" she was standing up for my child's "rights". SHE WAS WRONG!
Absolutely. In my experience those who condemn choices like UC and non vaxing DO, genuinely, believe they are standing up for your children's rights, even if they are the very same people we might condemn for hitting their children and CIO. Sometimes these people happen to be part of governments, but even when that is not the case, it can mess with peoples' lives. So, when no two people will agree, what should we use to determine what is and is not worthy of interfering with?

For lack of anything better, I would say - the law?

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#187 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 12:37 PM
 
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Again, there were many people like you floating around when there were slaves. Just because you were not a black person who sat in the front of the bus doesnt mean Rosa Parks was wrong for doing so. Even if you think blacks should have remained slaves, then thats fine thats your opinion, but it doesn't mean others cant express their opinion by making effort to change the laws to protect the unprotected.
Huh.

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:

I have ended up with a LOT of trouble with CPS, through no fault my own, because some nosey busybody would not MTOB.

There are some things that perhaps should be spoken about, but much more often, I think MYOB is a very good idea.
Yes. Exactly.

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Granted I came into this converstation late, but I don't think it was saying that YOU have CPS called on people because you say something to a parent or advocate for children's rights.

At least that is in no way what I said. What I did say was that I have had to deal with MORE than my fair share of CPS involvement and CPS treats BECAUSE of other "well meaning" people not MTOB.

I am NOT a child abuser, but I am a HUGE red flag in my area because of my homeschoolding, UCing, HBing, nonvaxing, and large number of children. People just automatically assume they can give me all sorts of advice and tell me how to raise my children, and when I disagree or do something that THEY feel is not right, they make a stink and cause a lot of trouble.

I have had many threats (CPS threats) made as well as several dealings with CPS because of this.

I really wish people would MTOB much more often.
I extended BF, babywear, and cosleep. I know with whom to share information and with whom to withhold it. Sadly, I never know how some people will react to the information I share with them. Once, when I was at a local salon, the recceptionist asked me if I was going to BF my first daughter. When I told her yes, she responded that I should stop once she is old enough to ask for it.

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:

You know, I really wish that you would stop attacking people like this.

It's not really adding to the conversation. NO ONE has said that children are not human. NO ONE has said that they love slavery or that they hate civil rights.

But you are illustrating the point of why I think that sometimes it's better to not discuss parenting choices if you can't be civil, or are not in a place where you can even remotely start from a place of understanding. When you start out talking parenting issues and soon move on to insinuating anyone who doesn't agree with you hates children, thinks they're subhuman, and oh by the way is pro-slavery to boot--the person you're talking to will have (hopefully) turned off their listening from that kind of attack.
Thank you.

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I'm talking about what you are saying to people in the thread.

You're right, I have no idea how you respond to people face to face, most people I know are a little more bold online so perhaps that's a good thing.

But I don't see ANYWHERE that Kirsten said in her posts that she thought children were "not human". And then you go on to say "people like you" in reference to people who agreed with slavery and fought civil rights? I'm sorry, but that is attacking people. It's unkind and unfair.
You're right. I didn't. And the thing is, I agree with her. I would not, however, voice my opinion to someone who made different parenting choices than I.

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yes people like her, not her. and yes, there are also people like her who DONT think that way. But people believe in equal human rights for all people don't think that way and that is the distinguishing difference. The people who see think that children not having their rights honored is not the same thing as when the AAs didnt have their rights honored or not the same thing as when the women didnt have their rights honored. And Kirsten is one who thinks its not the same thing. It doesn't mean she agrees with those things, obviously as she said they are not similar things, but it's people who think along those lines (just differently - just in terms of children not being human or deserving of human rights) who are that way. It's noting against KIRSTEN for christ's sake I dont even know kirsten!

but obviously you want to single me out and nit pick at my words, your own form of attack. You have intentionally been unkind and unfair towards me simply because you perceived I was being unkind and unfair towards someone else

but hey, I am going to respect your choice to not mind your own business because I know you are doing it because you think you ar standing up for the rights of someone else. how about that for irony
Same thing. Just like telling someone that their choice is wrong isn't the same as telling them that they are wrong. Sorry, but it's the same thing.

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#188 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 12:48 PM
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no it's not the same thing. you have the right to choose to take it as the same thing if yu want to feel attacked, however I am not attacking you and it is not the same thing.

There are
1) people who think something is wrong and stand up for it (ex: Rosa Parks)
2) people who think something is wrong, but dont say anything there allowing the wrong doers to feel that acceptance is implied (ex:you)
3) people who are LIKE (but not the same) as people in catagory 2, who don't think its wrong

when it comes to hitting a child 2 and 3 are alike in that they look at it as a parent right, where as the people in 1 see it as a child's human right being violated.

When someone in catagory 2 says that a childs human rights being violated is not the same thing as a women or certain races human rights being vilated that may create some confusion as to whether or not that person is somewhere between catagories 2 and 3.

So since there was obviously some confusion on my part pease clarify.
Do you think Rosa Parks did the right thing by sitting in the front of the bus?
Do you think children are as human as adults of all genders and races?
Do you think it's a parents right to do something that goes against a child's human right simply because they are a parent?
and do you think its wrong for a person to exercise their freedom of speech and say something to help protect someone whose human rights are being attacked (this would include children if you believe that children are as human as other people)

but you like when people dont MTOB to stick up for you Kirsten, and you thank them. Perhaps there are children out there thanking me for not minding my own business.

However, I do see a difference between SAYING someone hit someone, and someone ACTUALLY hitting some one. In this case, Tiger felt the need to exercise her freedom of speech to stand up for your human rights because she wanted to SAY I was attacking you, when I actually was not. I personally DO mind my own business when someone's basic human rights are not being violated. I don't go up to someone who have never told me they hit their child and who I have never seen hit their child and advocate for the child. I make sure that I first KNOW without doubt the child is being hit. Tiger does not know without doubt I was not attacking you, but still did not mind her own business. Which again, is fine with me, I just think it weakens the rebuttal against my choosing not to mind my own business.

It's okay for someone to accuse someone of attacking someone when they are not, but when someone actually DOES attack someone (a child who CANT stand up for themself) then that is crossing a line somehow?
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#189 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 01:02 PM
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You're right. I didn't. And the thing is, I agree with her. I would not, however, voice my opinion to someone who made different parenting choices than I.
see this is why I am saying you and I are different. because you see it as a parenting choice when its really a voilation of human rights. and not my opinion of human rights, but the actual human rights. And why should children's human rights not be respected? are they not human too? You say you think they are human, but then you say its a parent has the right to violate the rights they should have as a human.

It just confuses me.
At the same time, if someone wants to say something to me about breastfeeding or co sleeping thats fine, they have the right to say that. Do I think those are MYOB subjects? Yes - BECAUSE THEY ARE PARENTING CHOICES I MAKE THAT DONT VIOLATE HUMAN RIGHTS. but if some one wants to say something about it fine, thats their choice. I am just saying, I only speak up when a person's human rights are being violated. the rest of the time I do mind my own business. From a moral standpoint, I don't think it's wrong to speak up against a persons rights being violated.

Take co-sleeping for example - how would that violate any humans right if they were co-sleeping willingly? Adult men and women co-sleep. So when someone speaks up against that they are discriminating, where as when someone speaks up against spanking they are requesting that the discrimination ends.

There are just a ton of laws corrupting the basic human rights by means of prejudice.

I realize you said I'm not going to change your mind. Personally I do not choose not to have my mind changed. I am open minded, and while my mind wont be changed if what the other person says feels wrong to me, I am not determined to think they are wrong just because I currently have a different opinion in place. I'd have to hear what they said first though, ya know? I couldn't know if they would change my mind or nit until after I heard what they had to say.

The only sense I can make of it, and I'm willing to have my mind changed if something said changes my mind, is that you can only truly know I can't change your mind if you are not willing to allow your mind to be changed?

I don't know what to make out of the idea of determining ahead of time that no matter what anyone says I wont change my mind just because... because why I don't even know? just because? My brain just isn't wired that way I guess. I can't know if what someone says will change my mind until I hear what they have to say.
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#190 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 01:10 PM
 
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There is a distinct difference between thinking someone has made a bad or wrong choice and thinking the person is wrong. Just like I know the difference between my children's bad behaviour and who they are. Their behaviour is bad sometimes but they are not bad. We are not the sum of soley the bad choices we have made.

I think CPS should only be invovled when there is no doubt a child is being abused. That means don't call because some one spanks their child, or breastfeeds passed the age of one, or co-sleeps, or makes their baby CIO etc. If someone is beating (and no matter how wrong spanking is there is a difference of degrees with hitting a child) their child or never feeding them or if a child is being sexually abused ect then that's when CPS should get involved.

Spanking and CIO are things that the culture needs to purge on it's own through dialogue and education, hopefully leading to a paradigm shift with in our culture. With circumcision laws prohibiting cosmetic genital surgery from being preformed on those who can not consent need to be in place (there is already one in place preventing it from being done to girls in the US), along with education on normal male anatomy.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#191 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 01:12 PM
 
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see this is why I am saying you and I are different. because you see it as a parenting choice when its really a voilation of human rights.
I agree. I'm actually a little sad to think some people wouldn't say something when a child is being hit. Actually, it devastates me to think people must witness this and stand by and say nothing.

Makes me want to go spend half my day at the malls so I can make up for others who just think it's okay to beat a kid. Oh, I'm sorry - hit a kid. Spank a kid. Swat a kid. "Tap" a kid. It's all the same thing, no matter what pretty word you attach to it. And it's NEVER EVER EVER, under any circumstances, okay.

I should back out now, I'm feeling my blood pressure raise!

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#192 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 01:16 PM
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Well put Lavendar. I think sometimes these ideas that seem very simple to some are too complex for some others. You have to remember that the average IQ is 100, and here are people who are both above and below that average. Naturally though, there are more people in the average and lower catagory combined, as those are 2 catagroies and above average is only 1 catagory, and also more rare to acheive and above average IQ.

I bring this up because IQ measures a person's ability to naturally understand things. So some of us can naturally understand something and to us it seems SO simple, but other people may not be able to grasp our "complex" things (which again, to us isn't complex at all!)

Anyway, I am speaking about society as a whole. Society as a whole is naturally represented more so by the average-low IQ citizens because there are more of them. This is why often what is legal is not always what is right. I think voting is great, don't get me wrong, I just think sometimes it takes a little more effort to help people understand things so we can work towards making things right.

to clarify - the point of this is not that someone with a high enough IQ would agree with me, but that they would be more likely to see the connection and underlying patterns that the average person would not see - OR to be able to see another connection or underlying pattern, that if they explained to me I feel I would be able to recognize as well. That is not what I experience though when disagreed with on this subject. I experience people being unable to see the connections and patterns that are very clear and simple to me. It's not that they see a different deeper connection, its that they don't see any deeper connection. And also hence comes in the term ignorance is bliss because having these deeper understandings can certainly be a curse at times. It would be blissful if everything was just very simple and surface only, but I have yet to experience in life that is simply just surface. Everything in my experience has layers and connections and foundations. Below the grass is soil, and when I look at my front yard I can easily accept. What is out of reach for one person does not necessarily mean another person has to over reach to get to that point.

Also IQ and street smarts and social behavior do not always go hand in hand. Though some people with a high IQ may be exceptional in area of social behavioral patterns, others may excel in other areas. Though I will not sit here and claim that my opinion on social behaviors is right over the person who can understand the patterns in a way I cannot. I may be right in my mind, but I can respect that just because what they present me is out of reach did not mean they are over reaching in their findings.

It is what it is.
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#193 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 01:23 PM
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I agree. I'm actually a little sad to think some people wouldn't say something when a child is being hit. Actually, it devastates me to think people must witness this and stand by and say nothing.

Makes me want to go spend half my day at the malls so I can make up for others who just think it's okay to beat a kid. Oh, I'm sorry - hit a kid. Spank a kid. Swat a kid. "Tap" a kid. It's all the same thing, no matter what pretty word you attach to it. And it's NEVER EVER EVER, under any circumstances, okay.

I should back out now, I'm feeling my blood pressure raise!
Thats how I feel when I witness it too. I would rather not see it, but when I do I know that saying something may help the future of our society. The message needs to be sent to that child that they don't deserve to be hit, and support needs to be offered to that parent if they are willing to accept it so they can find another way. It can be done compassionately, but I think its fair to do it. What I think is unfair, is turning away from it and sending a message of acceptance (whether intentional or not) That is unfair to the parent, to the child, to the people who have witnessed it, to the people who will in the future be in some way connected to the child who is being hit, etc. We need to send a message that across the board, children included, people deserve to have their human rights respected. This won't change if we keep looking at it as a parent's right to do, instead of a child's right being violated. Its not just my opinion though, it is fact that if children are human (which they are) that their right is being violated. A parent's right to hit was only a discrimination added against those rights. We've had to fight for rights to be respected before, as I explained earlier, and it's time we do it again. If you subtract the discrimination in the same way we have for other races and genders in the past then you are left with the true human right being applied. Thats when it becomes clear that its a matter of a child's human rights, not an adults parenting rights. Again, this is not my opinion, this is just the way it is when you strip away the prejudice.
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#194 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 01:55 PM
 
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Well put Lavendar. I think sometimes these ideas that seem very simple to some are too complex for some others. You have to remember that the average IQ is 100, and here are people who are both above and below that average. Naturally though, there are more people in the average and lower catagory combined, as those are 2 catagroies and above average is only 1 catagory, and also more rare to acheive and above average IQ.
So now, people who don't agree with your methods or your reasoning are only disagreeing because they have lower IQ than you?

I did my time in gifted programs, went to and graduated college early, ect...and I think you're reaching here, intellectually and emotionally, as well as defeating your own purpose by constantly tying things to extremely high emotion issues (like slavery) as well as constantly throwing up illogical conclusions (you think children aren't human?).

You can be high IQ while being extremely emotionally immature. Most of us who were gifted children probably fell into that category at one point or another. You can be extremely smart and be utterly incapable of interacting socially with people because you have no empathy or capability to see the other side (for that matter, you can be really dumb and have the same problem). Some of the most brilliant people I know are also some of the least empathetic, which can take them down some dangerous roads. Some of the least bright people I know have a natural knack for empathy and thus are able to influence people to do the right thing.

You know, there are very few people who have disagreed with your idea that you should get involved when there is abuse. In fact, I don't think ANYONE has disagreed on that point. The problem lies in the *method* and *threshold*. So constantly throwing Rosa Parks at people is senseless, because *they are not disagreeing with you that children deserve the same rights as anyone else not to be violently assaulted*. I understand that you are using that example to show that there have been people who believe other certain categories of people are subhuman and thus shouldn't expect control and safety of their persons. But what I think you're seeming to not understand is that on that aspect of things we are ALL in AGREEMENT. Therefore you're trying to insert opposition where it doesn't exist, which makes people upset, which alienates your potential allies.

That yet again illustrates my point that this is why "arguing" and "debating" about parenting is extremely tricky. It is FAR too easy to be swept away in one's passionate emotions, to the point that you either go way over the top or you are blinded to the areas where you agree (and what you can use as touchpoints to connect and make your point). Once you accuse people of loving slavery and being against civil rights, though, I think it's a little like accusing someone of being a Nazi (assuming they're not a skinhead/seperatist). You have lost, ultimately, because the listener can't listen to you anymore, and you have totally destroyed any chance you have at connecting with them and influencing them. Now, you might say, "but I only said people LIKE you," ect. Come on, now. We're both at the nice end of the bell curve. And I think we both know, or should, that that kind of fancy footwork semantics is meant to be provocative, if not outright hurtful. I'm sure you meant that to make people stop and think. I'm asking you to consider that most times, it will just make people STOP, and then think *defensively*, not openly.

Does that make any sense at all to you?
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#195 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 02:20 PM
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That was not what I said Tiger, but I have a feeling you know what I meant.

As for inserting opposition no. There disagreement in this thread lies in whether or not you should speak up or mind your own business, and I am sharing why I think I should speak up and other are opposing that idea. If someone feels opposed to what I say that is how they feel, I am not inserting it though.

You also forget the person I was corresponding with told me from the get go she was not willing to change her mind, so at that point she was choosing not have alliance with me. You cannot push away someone as a potential alliance who states clearly that nothing you say would change their mind to make them join alliance with you. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. For an interesting twist to that I didn't gain an ally, sure, but that was primarily do the other person not willing to venture.

I am not approaching anyones actions specifically though, I was demonstrating how our society (not MDC) is failing to see that we are repeating our mistakes when it comes to equality and human rights. I was then told that those equal human rights were different when it comes to children, so I didn't feel like the other person was agreeing with me. I respect the connection is not clear to you, but that does not mean it is not there. To me it is a very obvious connection and not over reaching. You may disagree that the connection is clear, but just because something is not clear to you does not mean it is over reaching. I suggest that it could just as easily be out of reach for someone to understand as it could be over reaching of me to say. You think the latter, I think the former. Is your opinion that Im over reaching right just because you say so? Because in my eyes either of us could be right in that regard. Maybe you are right, maybe I'm over reaching. The thing is it's not causing my any strain to make this connecting, I'm don't feel reaching, only you are perceiving the ideas as being very far apart. So that is why I feel its more likely that the connection is out of reach for some people, not that other who understand it clearly are over reaching. So I agree to disagree there, but thats why I think I'm right just as you shared reasons why you think you are right. I would never say I am right just because I said so though, and I don't think you would either, so I can hope you can see that we are just looking at this different. It doesn't make me attacking you any more then it makes you attacking me.

I am talking about something much deeper here then what you seem to be connecting to in my words. As I said, I'm not getting into a discussion of these theories with some one on the street. We need to approach with compassion and support, of course. I'm not discussing those merits though, I am discussing the merits of whether or not we should approach (which is what this thread is about) and there are some deeper things going on to consider in making that choices - and yes it does connect the very core of the same deeper things that once kept certain genders and races at a lower level in society, even though they were equally human. The hot button issue is now children, but it wasn't only. What society fails to see is the connection, to which you also admit to not seeing. I am talking about the underlying issue that is being lost here, not about specific cases. When its time to talk about underlying issues I talk about that, when its time to "interfere" I offer guidance, compassion, and support to both the parent and child. It's not about any individual person right now, is about a concept (human rights) that is overall remaining lost even though our inability to understand (as a whole) has "taught us our lesson" twice before. History has a way of repeating itself, and that is what we see here.. well, what some of us see here. As I said, it's a complex concept and yes I do believe that some people don't understand it. Would you prefer I think that they understand it and just don't care if children's humans rights are respected? I would like to think that is they understood they wouldn't want to hurt children. I don't think that is a bad way to think.

I am not trying to convince anyone here to not hit their child, or to think that hitting a child is wrong. I am sharing my opinion on why I dont "mind my own business" when it comes to those things, and yes, people ARE disagreeing with me on whether or not one should. And I am one. And I do. So the disagreement is clearly there.

Can you see how the discussion on whether or not hitting is wrong is different from the discussion on whether or not we should say something when we see a child being hit? Sure, they are connected, but the approaches and discussions are very different.

Since you choose to continue to manipulate what I am saying though I will not continue to discuss this with you if you do it again. You can choose to continue to manipulate what I say, but I can choose to not continue the correspondence which gives you the opportunity to do that. Hope you have a great day.

To the OP I will try to put my standpoint as simply as possible:

1) I believe in freedom of speech, so as far as rights are concerned I think people have the right to speak up about anything they want. I only exercise my right to freedom of speech to speak up in instances where another person's freedoms are being violated.
2) but from a moral standpoint, yes I do think people should mind their own business, with the exception of people's rights being violated. As I stand up for another persons rights being violated I stand up for my own rights, so it IS my business. I stand up to say any violation of human rights its inexcusable, and in doing so I am making an effort to protect my own rights.
3) I feel that our rights end where another's begins. In other words, freedom over self, not freedom to infringe on another person's freedom.
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#196 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 04:11 PM
 
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Ok, playing devil's advocate.

FTR: I am anti-spanking, pro-civil rights, anti-slavery, believe children are human beings, believe it is right to denounce obvious wrongs, also think MYOB is a good general policy. And I have a higher than average IQ.

BUT: Imagine you see a mom haul off and smack her kiddo in the parking lot of your local Wal-Mart.

You, crusading avenger, approach this hypothetical evil, wrong, bad person and in your loudest voice start berating her for hitting her child.

My question is: do you really think you have made anything better for that particular child? If you embarrass the mother, how do you know she isn't going to go home and take it out on her kids? How do you know you aren't going to make things sooooo much worse for that little kiddo?

You know, there are many, many effective ways to advocate change in the world. Educate people (but don't lecture them). Give them tools to improve their parenting (but only if they ask for help). Petition lawmakers, contact media.

But picking on individuals makes you look like a self-righteous bully. It doesn't help the individual in question and can even put their children at further risk.

I don't understand why *you* can't grasp this.

And please, please, please stop insulting people who don't think the "commenting loudly in public" policy is the best way of reaching out and helping people on their individual life journey.
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#197 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 04:18 PM
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I cant answer that question since
1) I would not think of her as an evil, wrong, or bad person
2) would not talk to her in a loud voice
3) would not berate her

maybe someone who does that can answer your question.

However, I do think that when I go up to them and say "That was very hard for me to see, reminded me of being a child, and I know it must have been even harder for you. They are so tough at that age. I read this book (insert book rec here) and found it really helpful in learning ways to discipline that was can use without it effecting our own peace and happiness."

(yes, I realize this assumes that people would not hit their children if they knew there was another way, and assumes that people owuld prefer to gain compliance without violence, and thats not always the case, but when thats not the case and the people DO enjoy hitting their kids nothing I said is going to be the cause of it being worse - those people would only be using me as an excuse, and if it wasnt me speaking up it would have been something else)

if it opens up a doorway for more conversation then fine, if they tell me to mind my own business I will walk away but either way I have helped the situation.

I 1) was honest about how her behavior effects others around her, that people notice, and now she may stop doing it in public, reducing the risks of someone else doing something rash like calling CPS on her.
2) offered compassion and support
3) sent the message to the child that I dont think they deserve that, and that there is another way (and hopefully that is the way they will tap into when they are parents themselves- but at least they know oh hey, i DONT deserve to be hit. love doesnt have to come with pain!

so in my approach I think that
do you really think you have made anything better for that particular child?
yes
If you embarrass the mother, how do you know she isn't going to go home and take it out on her kids?
I cant say for sure they would be embarrassed or what they would do at home but I can say that a parent who hits a child because someone caught them hitting a child is pretty far into it, and would have found another reason to hit that child anyway. at least if that happens the child will know they dont deserve it.
How do you know you aren't going to make things sooooo much worse for that little kiddo?
I am not the one hitting them, and I am not the one making things so much. As I said, things are going to be bad either way, but it will be better because the child will know that one more person than before exists in this world that thinks they dont deserve to be caused physical pain.

Also I am not operating under the mindset of "if they do that in public imagine what they must be doing at home" Usually parents see no wrong in what they do or don't care. Many times what you see is the same kind of thing that goes on at home. So it's not like they are going to act all sweet then go home and kill the kid. Though, yes, there were parents like mine who NEVER hit in public but most certainly were raging lunatics behind closed doors. And I'm sure there is that in between - the person who hits their child in public but saves full on beating for home, but there really is no guarantee that its going to be one way or the other and when it comes to those people really beat on their kids, openly or privately, the best I can really hope for (besides them changing their ways) is for the child to know they don't deserve whats being done to them. Very rarely do I hear of people who just spank in public but then beat their child at home. Abusive folk generally either have the self control to wait until they get home to explode, or have no self control on explode on the scene. They don't usually just go part of the way in public and then all full blown at home. They are often angry, reactive people who don't know when to stop or have such anger issues that they cant stop themselves even if they wanted to. When dealing with these people, speaking up is not going to make the childs life harder. Their life is painfully, excruciatingly hard either way, but at least they can know they dont deserve for it to be that way.
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#198 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 08:38 PM
 
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I agree. I'm actually a little sad to think some people wouldn't say something when a child is being hit. Actually, it devastates me to think people must witness this and stand by and say nothing.

Makes me want to go spend half my day at the malls so I can make up for others who just think it's okay to beat a kid. Oh, I'm sorry - hit a kid. Spank a kid. Swat a kid. "Tap" a kid. It's all the same thing, no matter what pretty word you attach to it. And it's NEVER EVER EVER, under any circumstances, okay.

I should back out now, I'm feeling my blood pressure raise!
nak

I havent had the chance to read everything yet, but I had to respond to this. Do you think this is about hitting???????? It's not. If you think so, you might have missed several posts.

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#199 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 10:00 PM
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all my posts were most directly related to hitting. It's the ONLY thing I ever approach in person. I will join discussion online about other things though. I did understand the point of view on circ too, but that is not something that I have ever seen someone doing in a grocery store or the mall or anywhere else for that matter. But you are right, I probably would say something if I saw someone circumcising their baby in a parking lot. If its in a doctors office I'm not there to know about it to say anything to begin with.

Even a crying baby I wont say anything because I realize that can be taken out of context (like a baby in a stroller who is crying not because the parent practices CIO or doesn't want to hold the baby, but because she knows her baby gets overstimulated and that she can put the baby down for a minute or two and he'll just fall asleep but holding him would make him cry longer and harder) I don't see how hitting a child (in the ways I have seen it done) could be misinterpreted or taken out of context though, which is why its something I feel comfortable speaking up about.

As or the other issues and online - yeah I'll talk about circ if someone asks, I'll debate about cosleeping, I'll advocate on proper car seat use, I'll advocate for night time parenting instead of CIO, etc. basically yes, in a forum designed for discussing those things I will discuss them.
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#200 of 204 Old 06-20-2009, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Marylizah View Post
Imagine you see a mom haul off and smack her kiddo in the parking lot of your local Wal-Mart.

You, crusading avenger, approach this hypothetical evil, wrong, bad person and in your loudest voice start berating her for hitting her child.

My question is: do you really think you have made anything better for that particular child? If you embarrass the mother, how do you know she isn't going to go home and take it out on her kids? How do you know you aren't going to make things sooooo much worse for that little kiddo?
i can't imagine any scenario where approaching someone in this situation would not make things worse. i agree that it is entirely possible that berating the mother and undermining her authority in front of her children might lead to her feeling the need to reassert her authority more violently in the privacy of her own home.

the other scenario i see is a mother who is overwhelmed, had a bad day, at her wits end etc. who lost her temper, acted impulsively and smacked her child. a total stranger calling her out and berating her for her actions will just make her feel awful. she may be as against spanking as the rest of us are but lost control and did not have the tools to deal with the situation. it happens, we all screw up sometimes....making a spectacle of someone else's already bad situation will do no good.


the only time IMO where these things can really make a difference is when you are talking to someone you know and care about. friends, relatives, etc. who you share things with anyway. i ALWAYS (literally always IRL) talk about things in a 'well in my experience" kind of way. not in a right or wrong way no matter how much i believe that to be the case. i think it is a good way to talk about things without making people feel like your telling them how to do things.

circing is harder for me... i don't think RIC is ever right... and i have never really been able to bring it up or had it come up in a conversation... i am sure if someone i knew was pg with a boy i would find a way to give her some info. spanking is another toughie.. i wouldn't say anything to a random stranger without a good reason (i would say a store clerk or something asking them not to spank in the middle of the store but people feel this way about NIP and while i see a difference i don't think everyone would) in the case of a friend i would try to be gentle and understanding and find a way to share my own experience without saying she is out right wrong. the people i am closest to at the moment have the same view on spanking as i do. most of us were never spanked and the ones that were think its an awful thing to do to your kids. i try to remind myself that many people who spank their children were spanked themselves and either don't know another way or do not think that it was harmful to them at all. my friends who were spanked were not spanked calmly, did not know why they were being spanked etc... but this is not the way it is for everyone and while i do believe spanking is always wrong i also believe that there are different ways and some are better then others.
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#201 of 204 Old 06-21-2009, 01:58 AM
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I said something to someone who was beating a child in public once (well guess what one defines as beating but it was more then a spanking, the person was hitting the child randomly while yelling at them) and I said something. I don't know how it turned out other then I wasn't the only one who noticed, more official people got involved, offer the family parenting support, and it turnd out the person hitting the child was not the parent but a grandparent.

little i agree with this:
i try to remind myself that many people who spank their children were spanked themselves and either don't know another way or do not think that it was harmful to them at all.

thats why I say something, because I really think if people knew there was a way to discipline without hitting that they would choose it. Sure, not everyone would, but I think many less people would spank if they didnt feel like they had to, because I really dont think people enjoy hurting their children.
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#202 of 204 Old 06-21-2009, 09:59 PM
 
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all my posts were most directly related to hitting. It's the ONLY thing I ever approach in person. I will join discussion online about other things though. I did understand the point of view on circ too, but that is not something that I have ever seen someone doing in a grocery store or the mall or anywhere else for that matter. But you are right, I probably would say something if I saw someone circumcising their baby in a parking lot. If its in a doctors office I'm not there to know about it to say anything to begin with.

Even a crying baby I wont say anything because I realize that can be taken out of context (like a baby in a stroller who is crying not because the parent practices CIO or doesn't want to hold the baby, but because she knows her baby gets overstimulated and that she can put the baby down for a minute or two and he'll just fall asleep but holding him would make him cry longer and harder) I don't see how hitting a child (in the ways I have seen it done) could be misinterpreted or taken out of context though, which is why its something I feel comfortable speaking up about.

As or the other issues and online - yeah I'll talk about circ if someone asks, I'll debate about cosleeping, I'll advocate on proper car seat use, I'll advocate for night time parenting instead of CIO, etc. basically yes, in a forum designed for discussing those things I will discuss them.
nak

mine were related to circing.

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#203 of 204 Old 06-21-2009, 10:16 PM
 
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I'll gladly give info or experience if someone asks for it or opened a discussion on a parenting topic I have input on. Otherwise, I pretty much keep it to myself. As I get further along in this parenting journey I realize more and more that everyone's different and has a different way of doing things. I feel like there is this wave you go through when you have kids... when you're pregnant for the first time, you are pretty sure you know what to expect, then you have your baby and you realize you know nothing. You get that under control and think you know everything and eventually you mellow out and settle somewhere in the middle. Well that's my experience anyway.

Mother of 3, welcomed a new baby girl July 2011

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#204 of 204 Old 06-22-2009, 01:33 AM
 
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I'm very judgmental but keep my opinions to myself unless asked. Everyone has the right to live and parent as they see fit. Except for spanking--that I can't handle.
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