To Train Up a Child? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 100 Old 07-26-2009, 01:20 AM
 
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Maybe I wasn't clear? I was saying parents who do those things (CIO, bribes, etc.) are the opposite of what we do here at MDC. But they are not inherently criminal or abusive choices (such as following the Pearl's advice would be).
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#92 of 100 Old 07-26-2009, 01:44 AM
 
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It's not a question of weak makeup. These people write things in such a way that you get wrapped up in it, and don't notice that what they are spoon feeding you is cherry flavored castor oil.
I don't believe anyone has the power to bypass someone's judgment (except maybe hypnosis). The Pearls are not snake charmers; you only get wrapped up in something if you allow yourself to...

My good judgement was seriously undermined by my upbringing- I was trained to be a sheep. I think we innately have a sense for what is true and good, but that sense can be dulled or desensitized- leaving a person easy prey for faulty ideologies. That was what I meant by weak makeup. I know a handful of free thinkers who read the book and nothing stuck; they just automatically discarded it.

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BUT you can get good advice in other places, from other people that don't advocate beating babies and children.
Totally agree!
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#93 of 100 Old 07-26-2009, 09:40 AM
 
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I have read the books and most of the website and they are not as bad as most people here are making them out to be. Yes, they DO advocate corporal punishment and do believe it is an essential tool in child rearing (btw I do not agree with this). But they are very caring, loving people. It is obvious they deeply care for their children and their adult have a strong relationship with them now.
And they did not have enough to do with the death of the child. They are appalled it happened- that any parent would do that.
I know it seems I am defending the wrong side but I am tired of people showing bits of info that does not accurately represent a view/person.
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#94 of 100 Old 07-26-2009, 10:16 AM
 
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Slept on this thread and woke up thinking I could put my previous posts more succinctly:

I'm totally in agreement with attacking wrong ideas. But not the PEOPLE behind them (wishing them misfortune, etc).

And if people who embrace these ideas were sent to "rot in jail", I can guarantee you they would consider themselves suffering for righteousness' sake, become stronger in their stance and proclaim themselves "persecuted", and try to convert everyone in their prison- Michael Pearl already has a thriving jail ministry and sends his materials to jails around the US for free. Soooo... I would be way more interested in his transformation than his incarceration. =)
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#95 of 100 Old 07-26-2009, 10:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer View Post
Yes, they DO advocate corporal punishment and do believe it is an essential tool in child rearing (btw I do not agree with this). But they are very caring, loving people.

I cannot reconcile this. I cannot really make these come together, as for me physical pain and domination does not equal a show of love. So, how do you see this as being true? How do you love and hit- especially with the intention of blind, questionless obedience?

It is very easy to get caught in spirals like this- "I'm doing this for your own good", "This is what G-d wants", "I'm doing it because I care and love you so much I want you to learn", "Its not that bad", "It doesn't really hurt", "Things will get better", "Once we learn who is in charge, things will settle down"... These are classic lines of people who justify pain in the name of love. If the person loves underneath it all, it may be. But it does not excuse the actions. All people are a mix of good and bad. But this book, and this method, should not be mistaken for an acceptable way of showing love, even if it talks about love. It is wrong. Period.

Many moons ago, my mama told me as a little girl "If a man ever hits you, don't stay around to listen for him to say he loves you. Love and hitting never belong together." True, mama. So true. So, if the Pearl's are "loving", I'm still not waiting around to hear it. They lost me at the hitting. There are plenty of other people willing to talk about love that don't advocate using *instruments* to hit my child.
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#96 of 100 Old 08-10-2009, 09:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer View Post
I have read the books and most of the website and they are not as bad as most people here are making them out to be. Yes, they DO advocate corporal punishment and do believe it is an essential tool in child rearing (btw I do not agree with this). But they are very caring, loving people. It is obvious they deeply care for their children and their adult have a strong relationship with them now.
And they did not have enough to do with the death of the child. They are appalled it happened- that any parent would do that.
I know it seems I am defending the wrong side but I am tired of people showing bits of info that does not accurately represent a view/person.
How does that reflect the following quotes? Are they not accurate? Are the authors NOT the kind of people that would do this to their child?


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Originally Posted by chipper26 View Post
...

4) On p.59 they recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is "totally broken."

...

7) On p.80 they recommend giving a child having a tantrum "a swift *forceful* spanking." On the same page they say to whip small children on their bare skin until they stop screaming. "Don't be bullied. Give him more of the same." They say to continue whipping until their crying turns into a "wounded, submissive whimper."

8) On p.46 the Pearls say that if a child does obey before being whipped, whip them anyway. And "if you have to sit on him to spank him,then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher." "Defeat him totally."

9) On p.47 they recommend their various whips, including "a belt or larger tree branch" to hit children.
My mind is boiling reading it over. I can't imagine taking ANY advice from a book or a person that can do any of the things described in the post below. How does that not turn everyone's stomach?

As far as having wonderful relationship with their children, I want to know what kind of quality relationship a toddler who's been whipped into submission until he is whimpering and past the point of screaming and crying has with his parents.

You know who has wonderful relationship with her parents? I do. And I've never been spanked. When I picture someone doing to their child what this book describes...dunno.. How can this book ever be defended? Should a woman that's being abused appreciate that fact that her abuser is a well-read man and stick around for the intellectual discussion that happens every Wednesday night before the beating? Should a child that's being whipped care that his mom has an IQ of 145, and be delighted that his mother loves him enough to read the said book and WHIP him, because she cares apparently? Why does it matter what good pieces of advice may be within this book, when at its core it is anti everything what I believe parent-child relationship should be like?

This book promotes child abuse. No "good" piece of advice can make up for that fact.

New endeavor coming soon...
Raising Alice in Wonderland (DSD, 17), and in love with a Superman
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#97 of 100 Old 08-10-2009, 03:37 PM
 
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In regards to how disgusting it is to forgive your husband if he served a 20 yr sentence for child molestation... well... we don't say at the altar "til death do us part, unless you commit an act I consider heinous". Is there such a thing as unconditional love (not suggesting we should allow someone to continue to hurt people), and if there is, wouldn't situations like these be the ultimate way to show unconditional love?
To whom? I can't even begin to imagine sending my child the message that now that they're "safe" from a man who sexually abused them, I'm going to clasp him back to my bosom and love him from the depths of my heart. I mean...honestly. I can't even wrap my brain around "okay, kids - you're gone, so now I'm going to put all my energies back where they belong - the total support and unconditional love of a man who brutalized you". Nope. I just can't get that. And, yeah - I do think such a man should stay in jail, not because I think he should "rot", but because I believe he has an incurable illness, and I'm not okay with thinking that it's okay for other kids to go through that, because I've protected mine.

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If your child grew up and did something heinous, when would you give up on hoping they could be healed of their soul sickness and start to wish they would rot in jail?
If my child grew up to be a pedophile, I wouldn't ever want to see them released again. It has nothing to do with whether or not I love them (although I don't know how I'd feel - I do know, from my first marriage, that love can die when you realize the person you loved was never real). It has to do with the fact that they're a danger to a very vulnerable segment of society.

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would allow me to never write off a husband no matter what either (again, not saying I would accept sick/abusive behaviour in the name of "unconditional love"- but rather, that I would not "stop loving" the actual person. Loving them does not mean you would have to live with them per se,
You're supposed to live with him again. Once he gets out of jail, you take him back. It's not about unconditional love. It's about your job as a wife.
I will freely admit, though, that I don't think I'm capable of unconditional love. I can't see how I could love "the actual person" who raped my child. I really don't...and I think I'd have to be insane to even consider ever making a home with them again.

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I guess I also think that unconditional love of the person (which does not involve "allowing/accepting" their behaviour) is probably the most likely way to transform them to a "whole" individual... ???
This reminds me of the notion that the "love of a good woman" can change a "bad boy" into a good man. I've never seen it work...not ever. Guys with some problems? Sure. Guys who are a little rough around the edges, and have never had a good role model? Sure. Pedophiles and sociopaths? Not so much.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

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#98 of 100 Old 08-13-2009, 07:03 AM
 
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Yall now i'm thinking i need to confide in one of the leaders of this lll group and explain what's going on.
I think this is a good idea. If I were the Leader of this group, I would want to know. She might want to do an enrichment meeting on the issue of gentle discipline, or at least better understand what might be going on in the meetings. Obviously you don't have to let her know, but there is nothing wrong with letting her know. And you never know when someone will go to a meeting, have the Pearls book recommended to them and then never return, discounting the whole group because of that.

Oops, I just have just said Yeah, that to what SparkleFairy said.
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#99 of 100 Old 08-13-2009, 08:02 AM
 
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This is just horrific! They justifiy it too because they think this is what the Bible wants them to do.

It's a sick sad world. Poor kids that are caught in the middle of this. It's no wonder there are so many messed up adults. The life has been sucked out of them since they were infants. I feel sick now.
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#100 of 100 Old 08-13-2009, 09:38 AM
 
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