One kid loses another's toy - should he pay? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 of 48 Old 06-01-2010, 09:23 PM
 
Artichokie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm glad there was an happy ending!

That being said, I don't understand what was wrong with the deal the boys made. Frank bought the plane. Model airplanes are expensive from a kid's point of view and risky to play with. Joe wanted to play with it and Frank was willing to share with the understanding that Joe would assume the risk for his own actions. I think it was a fair arrangement. If someone borrowed my (expensive to me) road bike and crashed it, I would expect them to get it fixed. If they lost it, I would expect them to replace it.

Would someone (gently) fill me in as to why this plan was a bad one from a parenting perspective?

Mama to E (12/07) and M (01/11). homebirth.jpg
Artichokie is offline  
#32 of 48 Old 06-02-2010, 10:46 AM
 
plunky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama View Post
Thanks for all the insight. Most of you said what I felt myself.

I'm Frank's mother. None of the parents had any idea that the boys had made this deal beforehand. However, since they did, and since Joe had plenty of money, I didn't have a problem with them fulfilling it. So when Joe's parents objected, dh and I weren't sure what stance to take.

We decided to get Frank a new plane, since it wasn't his fault that he wasn't getting the money back. And had a talk with him about making "deals" like this. Our main point being, if you really don't want someone to lose/break your stuff, don't lend it out.

However, on the morning we were to get the replacement plane, Joe's dad called to say that he'd gone back to the park and found the plane, which had blown out of the tree, undamaged. So, happy ending and lesson learned.
Glad it worked out for you. I think you handled it well.

When I read the thread title, my gut reaction was something like: Generic toys would not need to be replaced, but special stuff maybe should be replaced. My terminology is clearly lacking, but I guess I think that if kids have a pile of water guns or wiffle bats or something...if one breaks it's not a big deal. But if you save your birthday money or get a paper route and buy a guitar or a model airplane or something else "special"...that toy has a more special significance, and it seems like these kids understood that. Too bad the other parents didn't. Pretty poor form on their part.

Dad to DD 9/2008
plunky is offline  
#33 of 48 Old 06-02-2010, 02:20 PM
 
Heavenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I'm shocked that this is even in question. Of course the child who damaged the item should pay for it (or his parents, in the case of a young child). If my friend let me take him new car for a spin and I crashed it would I be allowed to say to him, "Oh well, accidents happen"? No, I would have to pay for the damages. I don't see why this situation should be any different.

I'm glad it ended well, but my position remains the same.

Shawna, married to Michael, mommy to Elijah 1/18/01, Olivia 11/9/02, and Eliana 1/22/06
Heavenly is offline  
#34 of 48 Old 06-02-2010, 02:24 PM
 
Smithie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
I'm glad the place was retrieved.

I don't allow my kids to make deals involving cash with other kids. All such deals are parentally null and void in this house. Anybody too young to have a bank account who wants to make a financial arrangement of any kind needs to clear it with me first.

Not do I expect broken toys or household tchotchkes to be replaced by the kids who participated in an activity that broke them. If it was an new/expensive item and the parents offered to chip in for the replacement, I would consider that to be gracious, but I probably wouldn't accept. Accidents happen. If you don't want to risk an item, don't put it on public display!

Great, now I have a vision in my head of one of the kids' friends tossing the Wii over the balcony...
Smithie is offline  
#35 of 48 Old 06-02-2010, 02:58 PM
 
plunky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
Great, now I have a vision in my head of one of the kids' friends tossing the Wii over the balcony...
More commonly the Wii-mote is thrown into the TV if you forget to use the strap.

Dad to DD 9/2008
plunky is offline  
#36 of 48 Old 06-02-2010, 03:05 PM
 
ollyoxenfree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,933
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
I'm glad the place was retrieved.

I don't allow my kids to make deals involving cash with other kids. All such deals are parentally null and void in this house. Anybody too young to have a bank account who wants to make a financial arrangement of any kind needs to clear it with me first.
That's probably a pretty good rule to have in place, as long as you've made it known.

It wouldn't work for us, though. Both my dc have had their own bank accounts since they were about 8 years old (or possibly younger, I really can't remember anymore). At present, they actually each have 3 - one for general use (they have bank debit cards to access it), one high-interest savings, and one educational investment plan.

In fact, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure we set up accounts when they were born, because I deposited monetary gifts from birth into their accounts, along with birthday sums etc. as they grew older.
ollyoxenfree is offline  
#37 of 48 Old 06-02-2010, 06:36 PM
 
sapphire_chan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 27,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think Joe's parents are destroying his sense of honesty and fair play and that Frank's parents are abetting the process and that they all need to butt out of the interactions of a couple of sensible boys.
sapphire_chan is offline  
#38 of 48 Old 06-03-2010, 04:28 AM
 
minkleaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rootzdawta View Post
I think if you let someone play with something of yours or you lend it to them, you do so without strings attached, with the understanding that it could get lost, broken, or you've never see it again. If you're not willing to take that risk, don't lend out your stuff. It's nice gesture if a friend replaces something he broke but not a mandate.
I'm afraid I completely disagree with this. What about sharing and responsibility, not just giving your stuff away? If I lend something out and it is lost or broken I expect at least an offer of compensation. If Frank hadn't let Joe use the plane, Joe's parents might be complaining about his selfishness.

I think the deal the boys made was valid and should be honored, although if either boys' parents wanted to step up with financial help while expressing appreciation for Joe's responsibility and keeping to his word that would be fine.

I'm glad the plane was found. Maybe Joe's parents rethought their stance on it just being an accident and oh well tough luck to Frank.
minkleaf is offline  
#39 of 48 Old 06-03-2010, 01:18 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 27,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't like it much when kids make cash deals like this. DS1 had a friend who was constantly making cash deals and arranging "trades". It got to be a serious PITA, and we told them both they weren't to make any more deals without talking to us.

However, this seems a bit different to me, and I think these two posts sum up my overall feeling:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreThanApplesauce View Post
That being said, I don't understand what was wrong with the deal the boys made. Frank bought the plane. Model airplanes are expensive from a kid's point of view and risky to play with. Joe wanted to play with it and Frank was willing to share with the understanding that Joe would assume the risk for his own actions. I think it was a fair arrangement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plunky View Post
Generic toys would not need to be replaced, but special stuff maybe should be replaced. My terminology is clearly lacking, but I guess I think that if kids have a pile of water guns or wiffle bats or something...if one breaks it's not a big deal. But if you save your birthday money or get a paper route and buy a guitar or a model airplane or something else "special"...that toy has a more special significance...

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
#40 of 48 Old 06-03-2010, 01:27 PM
 
Grace and Granola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 1,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow, I am just amazed at the maturity of the two boys to enter into that sort of deal ahead of time. I think it would be a HUGE waste of a learning opportunity for Joe's parents not to help see him through on the deal. He made a very mature arrangement and now they're going to let him bail out on his word? What a terrible lesson.

As far as Frank's parents, if it was me, I would take the above thought and go to the parents. Explain that although I think "accidents happen" it would be a shame to waste the learning opportunity. It would be a shame to let Joe go back on his word. If it was about Joe's money for the parents, I would even go so far as to say the parents could secretly reimburse his bank account, just so the kids stuck to their deal. But it says alot that those parents aren't willing to reimburse a fairly expensive toy for a 7yo. They seem to be willing to pass along that same attitude to their child.


We have a 7yo neighbor boy who frequently kicks my 4yo's balls over our fence when he's over. He doesn't feel compelled to try and retrieve them let alone reimburse ds for them. They're just balls, but there have 4 or 5 now, so they add up. It's just a maturity/responsibility thing. This is why I am in awe of Joe and Frank!

Heather-- I'm a <>< SAHM of two fabulous boys 8/05 and 2/07
Grace and Granola is offline  
#41 of 48 Old 06-03-2010, 02:13 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 27,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OP: I have to ask - completely OT - did you choose the names for the Hardy Boys, or was it a coincidence? It's been niggling at me.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
#42 of 48 Old 06-03-2010, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
zinemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: from the fire roads to the interstate
Posts: 6,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
OP: I have to ask - completely OT - did you choose the names for the Hardy Boys, or was it a coincidence? It's been niggling at me.
Oh, totally the Hardy Boys. "Frank" listens to those books on tape all the time while building his legos.
zinemama is offline  
#43 of 48 Old 06-04-2010, 09:57 AM
2xy
 
2xy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rootzdawta View Post
Yes, I don't like the agreement that was made. I think if you let someone play with something of yours or you lend it to them, you do so without strings attached, with the understanding that it could get lost, broken, or you've never see it again. If you're not willing to take that risk, don't lend out your stuff. It's nice gesture if a friend replaces something he broke but not a mandate.
Depending upon what the item is, a broken-and-not-replaced item might be a friendship killer for me. I can't tell you how many times I've lent out my carpet cleaner to friends. Luckily, everyone has taken proper care of it and it's not been broken.

I let a casual friend borrow an entire math curriculum for her son (we weren't using it that year, but would need it in the future), and she gave it away when she was done because she couldn't remember who she got it from! That sort of thing really colors my view of a person. If I'm kind enough to lend something, I expect the borrower to be responsible enough to return it to me. Unfortunately, too many people have the "oh, well....it's not a mandate that I replace it" attitude. I think that lending IS risky only because a lot of people are just plain careless.
2xy is offline  
#44 of 48 Old 06-05-2010, 01:42 AM
 
Mrs. Bratton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 320
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rootzdawta View Post
Yes, I don't like the agreement that was made. I think if you let someone play with something of yours or you lend it to them, you do so without strings attached, with the understanding that it could get lost, broken, or you've never see it again. If you're not willing to take that risk, don't lend out your stuff. It's nice gesture if a friend replaces something he broke but not a mandate.

However, I'd also like to teach my kids to honor their word. So if it were my child that made the agreement, I'd like to see him keep his word.
Thats ridiculous and a big assumption. Who says I lend something out without strings attached? Especially if I specifically state ahead of time that "you can only use this item if you are willing to replace it in the case of an accident". Some things I am just not able to cut my losses on. In most cases I probably wouldn't lend those things out but if a friend were really in need of that item I might do them the favor with the clear understanding that they take responsibility if something happened.

I guess what I am saying is in some cases you may loan things out w/ no strings attached, except when you dont, lol. In this case the kid specifically didn't.
Mrs. Bratton is offline  
#45 of 48 Old 06-05-2010, 03:28 AM
 
MusicianDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tuponia
Posts: 10,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Bratton View Post
Thats ridiculous and a big assumption. Who says I lend something out without strings attached? Especially if I specifically state ahead of time that "you can only use this item if you are willing to replace it in the case of an accident". Some things I am just not able to cut my losses on. In most cases I probably wouldn't lend those things out but if a friend were really in need of that item I might do them the favor with the clear understanding that they take responsibility if something happened.

I guess what I am saying is in some cases you may loan things out w/ no strings attached, except when you dont, lol. In this case the kid specifically didn't.
That's what I'm thinking. I know someone who often loans things with no strings attached, but is some cases she does get the other persons agreement to replace the object if it is lost or stolen. Mainly DVDs, she still loans them out because she loves sharing good entertainment with people. There are some that don't get loaned out simply because she either likes them too much or knows that it would be near impossible to replace them.

That being said, while I don't think it is right to expect someone to take responsibility for ruining the item in question (because we all know at least one person who will refuse to do that no matter what) I do think it is very much right to expect ourselves and in extension our children to take responsibility for fixing, replacing or paying for a borrowed item that gets lost stolen or broken. The more someone has a later expectation, the less someone else will want or ask for the former expectation when lending to that person.

So yeah, I'm big on personal responsibility and for that reason, if I were Joe's parents I would be thrilled to learn he wanted to uphold his end of the bargain and support him in the matter.

malesling.GIFMutant Papa to DD (12)hippie.gif and DS (2)babyf.gif, married to DHribbonrainbow.gif
If it looks like I'm trying to pick a fight... I'm not, I'm rarely that obvious.hammer.gif
MusicianDad is offline  
#46 of 48 Old 06-05-2010, 08:24 PM
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
The reason I don't like the argument isn't because I don't think Joe should replace it, it's because I don't think Frank should have loaned out something that had such a high probability of being lost or broken in the first place, due to the fragility of it and the cost to replace. If there's a 50% or better chance the person is actually going to have to replace it, then it's too risky to loan out IMO. Joe should have just watched. But since things went as they did, Joe should absolutely have replaced it.
mamazee is offline  
#47 of 48 Old 06-05-2010, 11:31 PM
 
Kidzaplenty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Writing my Happily Ever After
Posts: 16,983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't really agree with them sticking by the deal for several reasons. One, I don't think most children at the age of 7 are really cognizant of the real value of money or have a complete understanding of verbal contracts. Not that some don't, but I can't imagine my young son completely understanding this "agreement". All I can see (using my son as an example) is a boy wanting to play with another boy's toy and agreeing to anything to do it.

I am also one to teach my children never to loan something out if you are not willing to lose it.

I also don't think a fragile toy like that should be owned by such a young child without the express understanding that it is fragile and will break or be lost easily and quickly.

Anyways. That is just from my perspective.

I would not have allowed my son, "Frank", to buy it.
I would not have allowed my son, "Frank", if he had bought it, to share it. (Too fragile)
I would not have allowed my son, "Joe", to make such an agreement.
I would not have allowed my son, "Joe", to take money that he should never have promised and pay for it.
I would not be angry at "Joe's" parents for not allowing him to pay $30 for a lost toy.
I would not buy another fragile toy for my son, "Frank". I would likely replace such a toy with a more durable alternative, though, out of my own money.

I want my children to honor their word. And I want my children to understand the value of money. But, I know that young children do not comprehend all the various aspects of money and agreements. So I would attempt to teach my son what went wrong, why it went wrong, and how we could alter our circumstances to achieve a different outcome the next time.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
Kidzaplenty is offline  
#48 of 48 Old 06-06-2010, 02:34 PM
 
Storm Bride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 27,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama View Post
Oh, totally the Hardy Boys. "Frank" listens to those books on tape all the time while building his legos.

I loved the Hardy Boys when I was kid.

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

Storm Bride is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off