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#31 of 46 Old 01-17-2011, 10:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Petie1104 View Post

OK, now my opinion.  If flying were necessary for me, I would probably go through the full body scanner and have the kids do the same thing. 



You don't always have the option to skip the patdown, though. If they see anything that seems suspcious on the scanners, you still have to do the patdown.


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#32 of 46 Old 01-17-2011, 12:58 PM
 
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DS (age 6.5): I want to fly to Disneyworld! The drive is far!

DH: Well, did you know that when you go to the airport nowadays, they have a machine that will take pictures of your body under your clothes, and then a stranger will look at your whole naked body including your penis?

DS: ... no way. You are teasing me, Dad. 

DH: No, it's true. And if they don''t like what they see on that naked picture, they will touch you all over your body, including your penis. 

DS: I am pretty sure that they will like what they see in the penis picture. 

(Mom collapses in laughter.)

DH: Well, if they DON'T, they are going to touch your penis. There is a man whose job it is to touch people all over at the airport. 

DS: ... you mean like at the dentist's office?

Both Parents: WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU AT THE DENTIST'S OFFICE?!?

DH: ...wait, do you mean the doctor's office?

DS: Yeah.

DH: Well, this man would not be touching you all over to make sure that you are healthy. He would be touch you to make sure that you are not carrying a knife or a bomb.

DS: PEOPLE KEEP BOMBS IN THEIR PENIS? 

 

Long story short, we drove to Florida as planned biggrinbounce.gif

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#33 of 46 Old 01-17-2011, 01:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petie1104 View Post

OK, now my opinion.  If flying were necessary for me, I would probably go through the full body scanner and have the kids do the same thing. 



You don't always have the option to skip the patdown, though. If they see anything that seems suspcious on the scanners, you still have to do the patdown.



And, if flying somewhere is important enough to me to make sure I have the money set aside to afford airline tickets, then my point is, I would put up with it.  Of course, to us, flying is an expense that has to be saved for times when we really need to do it.  We just can't afford it otherwise.


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#34 of 46 Old 01-17-2011, 03:30 PM
 
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Petit - I respect your opinion on this, but did want to point out that the USA Today article you posted relies on the TSAs own studies of their own equipment. Independent scientists have questioned the validity of that testing, and have said that it is likely the radiation levels are higher than the TSA is reporting.

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#35 of 46 Old 01-17-2011, 03:44 PM
 
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Recently I flew with DH and both children to attend my grandfather's funeral. None of the airports we went through had what DH and I jokingly call the "cancer machines" (porno body scanners) but if they had, we would have refused to go through them. And I was fully prepared to be turned away at the gate, because I'd sooner miss seeing family and honoring a dead loved one than allow some goon to fondle my children or me, over the clothes or not. We are not criminals and I won't let my children be conditioned to be treated that way. Nor do we want them to ever believe that it's okay to be molested by a stranger just because they wear a government badge and "everybody's doing it". irked.gif

DH and I drive everywhere...and I mean everywhere. We don't fly except in case of emergency (i.e. funerals) and it's a shame, because we love to travel. But we won't support an industry that allows its customers to be treated like prisoners. It just doesn't mesh with our values as a family.

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#36 of 46 Old 01-17-2011, 04:50 PM
 
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DS: I am pretty sure that they will like what they see in the penis picture. 

(Mom collapses in laughter.)

 

(snip)

 

DS: PEOPLE KEEP BOMBS IN THEIR PENIS? 

 

Long story short, we drove to Florida as planned biggrinbounce.gif


 

Ok, your DS sounds HILARIOUS!!!!!  Especially the first one.  I almost fell out of my chair.

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#37 of 46 Old 01-17-2011, 05:42 PM
 
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We went through Sea-Tac last week. I asked at the airline desk (not security), they'd heard nothing about 12 year olds being exempt. But all we did was the usual metal detectors (which, oddly enough, did not pick up the metal pins in my FIL's hip). Backscatter scanners where in place but not in use. Phew!


 

Pins that are designed to be implanted are generally titanium (I believe) and are not picked up by metal detectors.  I do wonder if they would show up in a scan?  I'm also wondering what is going to happen to those who have things like pace makers and who cannot go through metal detectors b/c of medical exemption - will they have an enhanced pat down or are the scanners safe for them?

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#38 of 46 Old 01-17-2011, 06:09 PM
 
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Petit - I respect your opinion on this, but did want to point out that the USA Today article you posted relies on the TSAs own studies of their own equipment. Independent scientists have questioned the validity of that testing, and have said that it is likely the radiation levels are higher than the TSA is reporting.



The USA Today article had references for the FDA in it.  So it wasn't just TSA's studies I don't think.  With that said, the main complaint I have read is that they don't know that the equipment is working properly at all times.  With that said, I did post the article so that everyone could draw their own conclusion.  I was just saying that for me, it isn't enough to keep me from flying if I need to.


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#39 of 46 Old 01-18-2011, 05:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by WCM View Post

We went through Sea-Tac last week. I asked at the airline desk (not security), they'd heard nothing about 12 year olds being exempt. But all we did was the usual metal detectors (which, oddly enough, did not pick up the metal pins in my FIL's hip). Backscatter scanners where in place but not in use. Phew!


 

Pins that are designed to be implanted are generally titanium (I believe) and are not picked up by metal detectors.  I do wonder if they would show up in a scan?  I'm also wondering what is going to happen to those who have things like pace makers and who cannot go through metal detectors b/c of medical exemption - will they have an enhanced pat down or are the scanners safe for them?


 

I broke both wrists in Oct 2001, initially I was in casts but ended up having plates and screw holding my wrists together. Flying home for Christmas that year, I set off every detector not just the ones at security but also in the duty free shop. I ended up having the plates and screw surgically removed the following spring.

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#40 of 46 Old 01-20-2011, 12:33 PM
 
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This topic infuriates me like almost nothing else. 

I think there are a lot of issues here that are rarely brought up. 

The first is the whole "professional" argument. While most of the TSA agents may be very nice, well intentioned people, they are hardly professionals. There are no education requirements and the salary ranges somewhere from 25-40k. There is nothing wrong with not having a higher education or making a low salary. I have a GED and barely make a livable wage but I'm not pretending that I'm somehow qualified to stop terrorism or to perform invasive inappropriate acts on strangers. These agents are not required to take a class on ethics or communications and are given nothing more than on the job training to use very complicated equipment.

Secondly, while I think it is wise to have basic security measures in place (scanning of bags and such), are we maybe just too afraid for our own good? I can sit here and come up with a dozen things I do every day that are more dangerous than getting on a plane, I would dare to say that are even more dangerous than getting on a plane that has had no excessive security screening at all. More people are killed in car accidents every single month than have been killed by terrorism in the history of our nation. That's not me being insensitive, it's a statistic, a fact. 

Other modes of transit like bridges and subways in large metropolitan areas, especially New York, are under the "threat" of terrorism every day as well. Remember that there was a subway bombing in London? And yet millions of people get on the subway and drive over bridges every day. And ..... do it without ANY invasive or personal security measures. NONE, not one. As someone who lived in NY for twenty four years and still goes there frequently, I can tell you that I've never once heard anyone ask to have airline security measures extended to subway use.

So my point is that I very personally resent someone telling me that my child should be forced to pose for pornographic pictures and be subjected to inappropriate touching to make them feel better about sitting on a plane, when odds are they are a lot more likely to be harmed when they get off.

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#41 of 46 Old 01-20-2011, 02:04 PM
 
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"I have a GED and barely make a livable wage but I'm not pretending that I'm somehow qualified to stop terrorism or to perform invasive inappropriate acts on strangers."

 

Heck, I have a Master's Degree and I never use it as an excuse to grope strangers at the airport! orngtongue.gif

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#42 of 46 Old 01-20-2011, 02:58 PM
 
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I love your humor Smithie! Your son's story a few posts back had me laughing so much :)


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#43 of 46 Old 01-20-2011, 03:37 PM
 
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This topic infuriates me like almost nothing else. 



I think there are a lot of issues here that are rarely brought up. 



The first is the whole "professional" argument. While most of the TSA agents may be very nice, well intentioned people, they are hardly professionals. There are no education requirements and the salary ranges somewhere from 25-40k. There is nothing wrong with not having a higher education or making a low salary. I have a GED and barely make a livable wage but I'm not pretending that I'm somehow qualified to stop terrorism or to perform invasive inappropriate acts on strangers. These agents are not required to take a class on ethics or communications and are given nothing more than on the job training to use very complicated equipment.



Secondly, while I think it is wise to have basic security measures in place (scanning of bags and such), are we maybe just too afraid for our own good? I can sit here and come up with a dozen things I do every day that are more dangerous than getting on a plane, I would dare to say that are even more dangerous than getting on a plane that has had no excessive security screening at all. More people are killed in car accidents every single month than have been killed by terrorism in the history of our nation. That's not me being insensitive, it's a statistic, a fact. 



Other modes of transit like bridges and subways in large metropolitan areas, especially New York, are under the "threat" of terrorism every day as well. Remember that there was a subway bombing in London? And yet millions of people get on the subway and drive over bridges every day. And ..... do it without ANY invasive or personal security measures. NONE, not one. As someone who lived in NY for twenty four years and still goes there frequently, I can tell you that I've never once heard anyone ask to have airline security measures extended to subway use.



So my point is that I very personally resent someone telling me that my child should be forced to pose for pornographic pictures and be subjected to inappropriate touching to make them feel better about sitting on a plane, when odds are they are a lot more likely to be harmed when they get off.




 

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Loving wife partners.gif and mama to my sweet little son coolshine.gif (Fall 2008) and a beautiful baby girl babyf.gif(Fall 2010)

 

When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty. --George Bernard Shaw

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#44 of 46 Old 01-20-2011, 07:50 PM
 
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It sounds like their policies are kind of wishy-washy. They change regularly but half the airports don't get the memo. My experience was fine, but I don't feel like that's any garuntee that yours will be. But just in case it helps, here was how it happened to me:

 

I recently went through the Nashville airport (BNA) at the end of December.  My biggest beef with the scanner and pat down (besides the fact that it's done at all) was that they didn't do anything to let you know what the scanner was. The fact that I'd done some before hand (because I was so nervous about being scanned) was the only way I recognized it. So you're not giving informed consent to be scanned.

 

The lady directing people to the scanner was friendly. She tried to convince me the scanner was less invasive than the pat down (for most people it probably would be, but I'm weird like that), but she was sympathetic and said she'd "get someone nice" to do it. I was briefly separated from my DP because he went through the scanner without knowing what it was, while I hung back waiting for the patting-down agent to show up. When she arrived, I went through the normal metal detector and into an area sectioned off for this purpose. She found my DP so he could be a witness. She got fresh gloves. She asked if I'd had the pat down before, and I said no, so she explained the procedure to me (moving hand up the thigh until it "meets resistance" etc, you've heard it), so there were no surprises. She touched my butt with the back of her hand, and she checked between and under my breasts with the side of her hands. She did reach in my collar and waistband. She didn't touch my genitals, but she came close enough that it could have easily happened by accident, I think. (It'd probably be more likely to happen on a man?) I had to wait while she tested her gloves for something or other. This all occurred at the same time that your shoes, laptop, bag is going through the x-ray, so I'm glad my DP was there to re-pack our bags.

 

I was wearing slacks and a slightly form-fitting sweater. It seemed like everyone had to go through the scanner (or pat down) whereas I've heard they just pick random people sometimes. However, it wasn't especially crowded at that time.
 

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I'm not sure I understand why these pat downs are considered sexual -- is going to the doctor for a check up (the gyno, a physical, etc) sexual? No it's someone doing their job...

 

It may or may not be because I was sexually abused as a child, but I do in fact find a medical professional poking around my private bits to be very, very distressing. And it used to be worse. Hell, it was years before I could comfortably change clothes in front of stuffed animals! (We're talking long after an age where I knew stuffed animals weren't secretly alive, but I did keep getting flash backs of Toy Story anyway.)

 

Still, there are some key differences between going to the doctor and going through "enhanced" airport security.

 

1. Technically, you don't have to do either one. Technically, you never have to do anything in your life except occasionally sleep and eventually die. But being able to say "But it's your choice!" doesn't make it okay for you to put another person in a situation where they have to choose between two bad things. The TSA is pretty much blackmailing people a la "Let us take a naked picture or you and/or feel you up, or else you don't get to see your family this Christmas." With the doctor analogy, you're choosing between an exam or the risk of an undiscovered health problem, but that health problem is a fact of life rather than something another human is deliberately inflicting on you.

 

2. Doctors try to give you as much privacy as possible. They leave the room while you're changing. They give you a gown which they move aside just long enough to do what you need to do, and then you can cover up again. They don't make you stand still for several seconds while they look you up and down naked.

 

3. You can choose a same-sex doctor if that makes you more comfortable. You will get a pat-down from a TSA agent of the same sex, but you don't get to pick who looks at the scanner picture.

 

4. If a doctor is creeping you out in any way, you can leave and get a new doctor.

 

I think I've heard that 1 in 5 women are sexually abused at some point, plus there's people who for cultural or religious reasons were brought up with ideas resulted in them being very modest. So just because you don't mind the pat down and image scanner doesn't mean it's unreasonable that someone else does.

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#45 of 46 Old 01-26-2011, 08:08 AM
 
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The fact that the searches are coercive and violate my rights and I didn't hire someone to do them.

 

 

 



THAT is why I WON'T FLY! Want more info on the unconstitutional and ineffective pat downs check out this site.... http://wewontfly.com/

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#46 of 46 Old 01-27-2011, 06:36 AM
 
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THAT is why I WON'T FLY! Want more info on the unconstitutional and ineffective pat downs check out this site.... http://wewontfly.com/


 

My childhood best friend is getting married in Scotland.  All of a sudden saying "I won't fly" is a different choice.


My advice may not be appropriate for you. That's ok. You are just fine how you are and I am the right kind of me.

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