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#61 of 84 Old 11-27-2010, 07:45 PM
 
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Uh, that is very... Well I'm not sure I can say what it is... Believe it or not Canadians have rights too, including the right to be protected against illegal search and seizure. But you know what? There is still a thing called probably cause, even in the US.

 



True. And, in a legalistic sense, maybe "I don't want you in my home" counts as probable cause. In an ethical sense, it doesn't. It's not probable cause to believe anything is going on. Followed to its logical conclusion, a police officer or CPS worker could show up at anybody's house, say, "we believe there's such-and-such going on and we want to come in and investigate", and then go get a warrant when the homeowner refused. That's a joke.


Unfortunately legal and ethical are often not the same thing. I happen to hate the idea of "if you have nothing to hide then where is the problem?" just because it's not how things really are. But if it is legally probable cause, than means they can legally search your home.

I'm not arguing that. I never was. I just think it's completely asinine, and does nothing to protect anybody...and can subject both parents and children to a lot of unnecessary stress.
 

I think you an I are having different arguments then, 'cause I'm going off the post I originally replied too which said the refusal is not considered probable cause from a legal stand point.
 

My post, or the other poster's comment about the 4th Amendment?
 


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#62 of 84 Old 11-27-2010, 11:21 PM
 
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Way back on the first page. This post here.
 

I wasn't arguing whether it was a good thing or not, just it is the way it is.

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Everything LROM said. Social workers see a lot of crazy, scary stuff. Having worked in the field, you never know what you will find when that door opens. You could have a lovely smiling mom in a nice house telling you how all is well and the door opens up to things you can't *unsee*. And when some little thing you are ready to "check out and cross off" turns into "get a warrant" 1.) There is not way I could see *not* getting a warrant/calling the police because the issue still stands and I have no additional information to discredit it. 2.) I get really nervous because I have *no* idea why I am being barred- Is it a boyfriend on the couch who has been skipping parole? Is is some other horrible thing? Or is it a concerned and educated parent exercising their rights? I don't know why, but it's my job to see the kids are safe, so I'm going to do what I need to for the door to open. 3.) Social workers have their own experiences that shape their ideas. So, you remember the child where you missed the signs. You remember the lovely mom you interviewed after "bogus" claims to find horrible things later. And it makes you promise to not let that happen again. So "get a warrant" sends up a million feelings that are not entirely related to what is going on with you (which, you don't really want).

 

In short, I could not *imagine* if someone said "get a warrant" that I would *not* do that and most likely, call the police (who CAN come in if there is reason to believe that the children are in danger).

 

So, while it may be within your rights, I would use that with great seriousness.


But police have to have probably cause, and third party "Someone called and said ....." doesn't constitute probably cause.  Yes, they would probably try to get a warrant, but that requires going in front of a judge and asking for one, and then you might get one, or you might not.  The CPS call on me was about "she doesn't respond to the baby's cries when someone else is holding him"  Ummm...I DO NOT think a judge would have granted a warrant based on that!


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#63 of 84 Old 11-28-2010, 05:05 AM
 
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And I guess I am not sure how to answer your question about how to know if the injury is serious enough or even if the child will be hurt worse.  Keep in mind that children and family members are interviewed (many times kids are interviewed at school), so a worker should have some idea who caused the injuries and should know what they are.  A  lot of parents who are abusing their children, are more likely to inflict more harm *after* a CPS worker makes a visit to the house.  I think part of it is just having worked in the field long enough to be able to know based on interviews and seeing a child if their injuries are caused by just being a kid or if there is something else going on.  I am sure that's not the answer you want and probably seems vague, but there are just things you keep a look out for when working with families in this way.  

 

And yes, it is subjective, I've mentioned that several times.  Law enforcement is subjective too, as is the court system.  Because no matter how we'd prefer otherwise, these are fun by humans who can't help but inject their own feelings/judgements/experiences into things.


You're right, it isn't the answer I want.  My problem with CPS though, is that my worker was obviously very new, had probably just graduated from her MSW (was younger than I am I'm almost positive), and told me that I couldn't be alone with my child when HE ADMITTED PINNING ME TO THE FLOOR.  Shouldn't that have been setting off red flags like CRAZY?????

 

I mean seriously, someone gave her the authority to tell me that I couldn't be alone with my child, when my ex admitted that he was being abusive, and then her supervisor AGREED WITH HER when we met with the supervisor - AFTER I explained everything.  I couldn't tell her ANYTHING when she visited my home b/c my ex was THERE.  And so I wasn't allowed to be alone with my child, I have my ex on TAPE threatening me with taking my child away from me, him telling me that I couldn't do anything with ds unless his mother AGREED (like, decide what to feed him, whether he can or cannot go for a walk, take him into the bedroom and shut the door to get some privacy from a stalker basically), and they STILL said that I couldn't be alone with him.   My ex told them that b/c I had ppd I was a danger to my child - um....NOT TRUE. 

 

After she spoke to my therapist she FINALLY said that I could be alone with my child, b/c my therapist told her that YES I was in an abusive relationship, that YES I was depressed - my abuser lived with me!  DUH. 

 

I believe that you are experienced enough, but my worker OBVIOUSLY wasn't.  And my child was happy, obviously well fed (not fat, just big cheeks and healthy looking), he'd never even had a diaper rash, was walking at 10mo (more like running, but was DEFINITELY on target developmentally), he might have had a few bruises from falling on the hard wood but was just very very well taken care of.  The fact that his ped even CALLED (based on false information given to him by my ex and my ex's mother, at an appointment I knew NOTHING about) was insane - there was NOTHING on my child to even SUGGEST neglect/abuse.  NOTHING.  My worker instead just believed every.single.thing.my.ex.said.  When really, as soon as he said that he pinned me to the floor, she should have been giving me resources so that I could get out of my abusive situation, rather than put constraints on me about when/how I could be alone with my child. 

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#64 of 84 Old 11-28-2010, 11:13 AM
 
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I haven't read all of the replies but is it possible to move once cps closes the case and deems the allegations as unfounded?  It doesn't sound like a neighborhood I would want to raise my children in.

 

Best of luck to you.


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#65 of 84 Old 11-28-2010, 12:13 PM
 
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To refuse entry is not reason for probably cause.

 

When I had CPS show up at my door, their "reported offense" was neglect.  That I let my children play unsupervised in my own front yard.

 

When the SW showed up at my door, she was livid that I would not let her in.  I asked her for her reasons.  I opened my door so she could visually see the inside of my house without stepping in.  And I brought my children on the porch to say hi, so she could see them.  She still insisted that she HAD to come in.  I flat out told her no, not without a warrant.

 

She sat in our drive way and called the cops.  When the police arrived, they talked for a while.  He came to our door with her and asked if we would let her in.  I told him no, not without a warrant.  I explained the "incident", I opened my door for him to see my house, I showed him my children.  I was polite and kind.  He asked why all our windows were covered (apparently the CW had tried looking in all our windows before ringing our door bell, presumably to find evidence for probably cause) and I told him we had just moved in and had not even unpacked the curtains yet (which has since led me to keep all my windows covered completely).  He said thank you and told her he could not enter without a warrant.  She went mad!  Literally.   She ordered him to make us let her in our house.  But he said that without a warrant he could not legally do that, and that there was no cause.

 

So, just refusal does not equal probable cause.  From my experience, anyways.

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#66 of 84 Old 11-28-2010, 02:08 PM
 
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Is this how the story ended?  We were in a very similar situation in PA.  The cop was extremely rude and intimidating.  Case worker claimed to have gone on to get a restraining order from a juvenile court judge to force us into cooperation.  We talked to a lawyer, understood that this is a real danger, and settled to let the worker in.  There didn't seem to be any other reasonable path to take at the time.  
 

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To refuse entry is not reason for probably cause.

 

When I had CPS show up at my door, their "reported offense" was neglect.  That I let my children play unsupervised in my own front yard.

 

When the SW showed up at my door, she was livid that I would not let her in.  I asked her for her reasons.  I opened my door so she could visually see the inside of my house without stepping in.  And I brought my children on the porch to say hi, so she could see them.  She still insisted that she HAD to come in.  I flat out told her no, not without a warrant.

 

She sat in our drive way and called the cops.  When the police arrived, they talked for a while.  He came to our door with her and asked if we would let her in.  I told him no, not without a warrant.  I explained the "incident", I opened my door for him to see my house, I showed him my children.  I was polite and kind.  He asked why all our windows were covered (apparently the CW had tried looking in all our windows before ringing our door bell, presumably to find evidence for probably cause) and I told him we had just moved in and had not even unpacked the curtains yet (which has since led me to keep all my windows covered completely).  He said thank you and told her he could not enter without a warrant.  She went mad!  Literally.   She ordered him to make us let her in our house.  But he said that without a warrant he could not legally do that, and that there was no cause.

 

So, just refusal does not equal probable cause.  From my experience, anyways.

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#67 of 84 Old 11-28-2010, 02:26 PM
 
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Is this how the story ended?  We were in a very similar situation in PA.  The cop was extremely rude and intimidating.  Case worker claimed to have gone on to get a restraining order from a juvenile court judge to force us into cooperation.  We talked to a lawyer, understood that this is a real danger, and settled to let the worker in.  There didn't seem to be any other reasonable path to take at the time.  
 

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To refuse entry is not reason for probably cause.

 

When I had CPS show up at my door, their "reported offense" was neglect.  That I let my children play unsupervised in my own front yard.

 

When the SW showed up at my door, she was livid that I would not let her in.  I asked her for her reasons.  I opened my door so she could visually see the inside of my house without stepping in.  And I brought my children on the porch to say hi, so she could see them.  She still insisted that she HAD to come in.  I flat out told her no, not without a warrant.

 

She sat in our drive way and called the cops.  When the police arrived, they talked for a while.  He came to our door with her and asked if we would let her in.  I told him no, not without a warrant.  I explained the "incident", I opened my door for him to see my house, I showed him my children.  I was polite and kind.  He asked why all our windows were covered (apparently the CW had tried looking in all our windows before ringing our door bell, presumably to find evidence for probably cause) and I told him we had just moved in and had not even unpacked the curtains yet (which has since led me to keep all my windows covered completely).  He said thank you and told her he could not enter without a warrant.  She went mad!  Literally.   She ordered him to make us let her in our house.  But he said that without a warrant he could not legally do that, and that there was no cause.

 

So, just refusal does not equal probable cause.  From my experience, anyways.


The difference I think with Kidzaplenty is that she showed the police officer her kids, and allowed him to look in her home.  He obviously saw that there was no immediate danger to anyone, and while the POLICE OFFICER could enter the home with probable cause (which depends on the officer), they CANNOT order that you allow anyone ELSE to enter (the Social Worker) without a court order.

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#68 of 84 Old 11-28-2010, 02:32 PM
 
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"probable cause" is definitely not created by refusing to let a CPS or Police officer into your house without a warrent. It just makes them more determined to get into your house because you're exercising your rights and they're probably not used to it. Most people don't know or don't think that they have the right to refuse entry or are told just to let them in because it will be easier on them (the parent or homeowner if they do). However, the fewer people actually assert their rights, the less police/CPS/government people anticipate it. So the more suspicious they are when you do. At any rate, if CPS were called on me, I would absolutely deny them entry into my house. I would open the door and talk with them, but would make it very clear that any entry into my home would depend on a warrant. An article I read a while back (but have been unable to find) also recommended having a plan set up in case CPS comes to your door and they recommended having a friend or a spouse or a relative willing to take your children over to their house in case the police are called out so that the child isn't taken away unnecessarily (especially in areas of the country where this is common. Then when a warrant is obtained, if the CPS worker/police ask where the child/ren is/are, simply mention that they had a prior arrangement at a friend's/relatives' house and leave it at that. Be friendly, but be guarded. The fact that the vast majority of CPS cases opened are unnecessary makes these precautions quite reasonable in my mind. Getting your kid out of the foster care system once he gets placed in there seems to be so impossible, I would hate to risk it.

 

As far as the neighbors are concerned, I would definitely do what a PP suggested and be passive aggressive against it. It would irritate me to no end to know that my own neighbors were trying to have my child taken from me for no good reason.


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#69 of 84 Old 11-28-2010, 02:56 PM
 
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Is this how the story ended?  We were in a very similar situation in PA.  The cop was extremely rude and intimidating.  Case worker claimed to have gone on to get a restraining order from a juvenile court judge to force us into cooperation.  We talked to a lawyer, understood that this is a real danger, and settled to let the worker in.  There didn't seem to be any other reasonable path to take at the time.  
 

 

 

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The difference I think with Kidzaplenty is that she showed the police officer her kids, and allowed him to look in her home.  He obviously saw that there was no immediate danger to anyone, and while the POLICE OFFICER could enter the home with probable cause (which depends on the officer), they CANNOT order that you allow anyone ELSE to enter (the Social Worker) without a court order.


I guess I did not make it abundantly clear.  The Officer was not allowed into my home either.  Just allowed to stick his head in the door and look.

 

How this ended was at some future point I did allow a worker to walk into my living room.  She was not allowed past the livingroom, which was the the entry into my home.  She insisted that she had to interview my children privately, I told her that I would not allow that but that she could ask them questions with me there.  She said she would be back.  I had three other visits from CPS after this (regarding this investigation), none of them were allowed into my home or even to see my children (since they had already seen that they were fine).  All said they would get in.  All said that I had to let them in.  All said they could get a warrant.   I refused to sign their papers.  I refused to sign their "plan of action" (I had done nothing wrong).  I refused to sign even the paper they gave me saying I was refusing to sign their papers (a great item I might add).  I finally got a letter a month or two later saying case was closed.  I just refused to deal with them.  Was VERY polite, but held my ground 100%.
 


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#70 of 84 Old 11-29-2010, 09:13 AM
 
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Way back on the first page. This post here.
 

I wasn't arguing whether it was a good thing or not, just it is the way it is.

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Everything LROM said. Social workers see a lot of crazy, scary stuff. Having worked in the field, you never know what you will find when that door opens. You could have a lovely smiling mom in a nice house telling you how all is well and the door opens up to things you can't *unsee*. And when some little thing you are ready to "check out and cross off" turns into "get a warrant" 1.) There is not way I could see *not* getting a warrant/calling the police because the issue still stands and I have no additional information to discredit it. 2.) I get really nervous because I have *no* idea why I am being barred- Is it a boyfriend on the couch who has been skipping parole? Is is some other horrible thing? Or is it a concerned and educated parent exercising their rights? I don't know why, but it's my job to see the kids are safe, so I'm going to do what I need to for the door to open. 3.) Social workers have their own experiences that shape their ideas. So, you remember the child where you missed the signs. You remember the lovely mom you interviewed after "bogus" claims to find horrible things later. And it makes you promise to not let that happen again. So "get a warrant" sends up a million feelings that are not entirely related to what is going on with you (which, you don't really want).

 

In short, I could not *imagine* if someone said "get a warrant" that I would *not* do that and most likely, call the police (who CAN come in if there is reason to believe that the children are in danger).

 

So, while it may be within your rights, I would use that with great seriousness.


But police have to have probably cause, and third party "Someone called and said ....." doesn't constitute probably cause.  Yes, they would probably try to get a warrant, but that requires going in front of a judge and asking for one, and then you might get one, or you might not.  The CPS call on me was about "she doesn't respond to the baby's cries when someone else is holding him"  Ummm...I DO NOT think a judge would have granted a warrant based on that!


Gotcha. Yes - we were talking at cross purposes. I thought you were saying they had probable cause, in the sense that a refusal to let someone in was a justifiable reason to think they were hiding something...not just that it was a legal cause to search.


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ETA - what are the factors that you have been given to use to determine what is "imminent danger of serious harm"??  I'd like to know, just in case CPS gets called on me again so that I can throw it in the CW's face that she's completely wrong.

 

I think I would avoid being confrontational. The CPS is the LAST group of people I am gonna throw attitude at. Why? B/c they have the irght to remove your child.

 

The workers go by the gold standard "People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing."

 

Nothing peeks their "Something is hinky" meter more then a parent who refuses them entry when they are there to ensure your childs safety.

 

I would love to say "They have no formed opinion about you prior to meeting you.". But thats not necessarily true. They drive up your road collecting subconscious data. You live in a nice upper class area...they are less likly to be invasive from the oneset. You live in a lower class area, they are more likily to be insistant.

 

However, they are there b/c they have been called to check on your childs welfare.

 

The very least thing you should do is refuse them. That isnt going to get you anywhere. TO them its like admitting guilt.

 

In their mind...they dont want to be there. Half the time the case is already closed in their mind (oh, its some nosey neighbour, or the kid probably fell off the bed and hit his head." )

 

They arent going in assuming its abuse. They dont want the headache of removing a kid. They dont like it. they want it to be nothing. They have 40 more visits to get through that week.

 

But the minute they bring their overworked butts up to that door...and you say "No way. Show me your warrent. Your not seeing or talking to my kid."  Then you have just placed a bullseye on your and your kids heads.

 

B/c they ARE going to get in. And now they are goign in with the info that you had soemthing to hide.

 

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B/c they ARE going to get in. And now they are goign in with the info that you had soemthing to hide.

 


But they DO NOT have the info that you have something to hide.  They know that you refused entry - thats IT.  In my case, my ex's mother HAD formed an opinion of me before she met me, b/c even though we lived in a very nice area, the CW spoke with my ex's mother before I even got HOME.  I got home a few minutes later, with my ex.  She already thought I was out of my mind crazy, b/c my ex's mother told her many many many lies about how nutso I was.  Then my ex proceeded to tell her more.  And then she believed him, and told me I couldn't be alone with my child, even though my child was THRIVING - very obviously thriving, and had nothing on him, or looked ANYTHING like an abused or neglected child.

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  And then she believed him, and told me I couldn't be alone with my child, even though my child was THRIVING - very obviously thriving, and had nothing on him, or looked ANYTHING like an abused or neglected child.


 

Children who are abused & neglected can look as if they're thriving. From all outward appearances, I looked like a wonderful child with a perfect life. My sociopathic mother could fool people easily t by saying & doing the right things. My life was a nightmare, but it didn't look that way. I think you're bringing your preconceptions of what an "abused and neglected child" looks like into the picture, and that clouds why you can't see that the social worker didn't just take you at your word because of how your child looks when she had 2 other adults with intimate knowledge of your life saying you were mentally unstable.


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  And then she believed him, and told me I couldn't be alone with my child, even though my child was THRIVING - very obviously thriving, and had nothing on him, or looked ANYTHING like an abused or neglected child.


 

Children who are abused & neglected can look as if they're thriving. From all outward appearances, I looked like a wonderful child with a perfect life. My sociopathic mother could fool people easily t by saying & doing the right things. My life was a nightmare, but it didn't look that way. I think you're bringing your preconceptions of what an "abused and neglected child" looks like into the picture, and that clouds why you can't see that the social worker didn't just take you at your word because of how your child looks when she had 2 other adults with intimate knowledge of your life saying you were mentally unstable.


Umm... yeah, did you read my post upthread?  M ex ADMITTED THAT HE PINNED ME TO THE FLOOR DURING AN ARGUMENT (the night before she came).  That is PHYSICAL ABUSE OF ME.  That should have set off HUGE red flags for HER - someone who is supposed to recognize ABUSE.  Oh yeah, I'm not important.  I'm only my sons MOTHER.

 

Oh yeah, and the my ex MOTHER  threatened to call CPS on me b/c I wanted to take a BREAK - while SHE and my EX WATCHED MY SON.  Seriously?  does that sound like neglect ot you?  making sure he was taken care of before taking a breather for myself?  I'm sorry, but to say that b/c my son looked perfect, and that 2 adults (who were conspiring to get custody of my child away from me, and who took my baby to the Dr. without even TELLING me) were telling her things, and so it was believable and that she should trust them?????  SORRY.  NO EXCUSE for CPS to tell me I can't be alone with my kid, and to tell my ex that his family can STALK me and make ALL parenting decisions.  NOPE.

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Originally Posted by beenmum View Post

I think I would avoid being confrontational. The CPS is the LAST group of people I am gonna throw attitude at. Why? B/c they have the irght to remove your child.

 

The workers go by the gold standard "People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing."

 

Nothing peeks their "Something is hinky" meter more then a parent who refuses them entry when they are there to ensure your childs safety.

 

I would love to say "They have no formed opinion about you prior to meeting you.". But thats not necessarily true. They drive up your road collecting subconscious data. You live in a nice upper class area...they are less likly to be invasive from the oneset. You live in a lower class area, they are more likily to be insistant.

 

However, they are there b/c they have been called to check on your childs welfare.

 

The very least thing you should do is refuse them. That isnt going to get you anywhere. TO them its like admitting guilt.

 

In their mind...they dont want to be there. Half the time the case is already closed in their mind (oh, its some nosey neighbour, or the kid probably fell off the bed and hit his head." )

 

They arent going in assuming its abuse. They dont want the headache of removing a kid. They dont like it. they want it to be nothing. They have 40 more visits to get through that week.

 

But the minute they bring their overworked butts up to that door...and you say "No way. Show me your warrent. Your not seeing or talking to my kid."  Then you have just placed a bullseye on your and your kids heads.

 

B/c they ARE going to get in. And now they are goign in with the info that you had soemthing to hide.

 



 See, this is not how I see it.  In my experience, I should not have to open my life to a stranger in my door way, I don't care if they say they are there for the sake of my children.  I have nothing to hide.  Yet, that does not mean I have to hide nothing from them.  It is my house, my children, my life.  My family is safe, my children are safe, and the allegations had nothing to do with my house.  I was not admitting guilt.  And I had a bulls-eye on my head before she rang the door bell.  I am a large, "religious" family, in a poor neighborhood, that does not vax, homebirths, homeschools, cosleeps, and had a disabled daughter due to an at-home accident some time before.  I was a string of red flags.  There was no way I was going to open my door to such an antagonistic person who was out to "get" me.  And to be honest, even if she wasn't antagonistic, I am not sure I would have opened my door to her.  She had not right into my house.  And the allegations had NOTHING to do with my home.  If they had, I would have "proved" them wrong by allowing a "look-see".  But since they were solely allegations of me "neglecting" my children by allowing them to play "unsupervised" in MY FRONT YARD (mind you, there were six of them, the youngest was 18mth, but the oldest was 17), there was no reason for her to enter my home to "prove" my case.  (My explanation, my children's confirmation of events, and the confirmation from the neighbor children were plenty of "proof" if she had been searching for it.) 

 

Not letting them INTO my home is not the same as not letting them see or talk to my children and check on their welfare.

 

They are NOT going to get in my home without a warrant.  There is no reason to open myself up to undue stress and scrutiny just because some busybody lied to a hot-line operator.  And I am innocent until proven guilty.

 

BTW, the CPS workers in my area (where this incident happened) do NOT go by the gold standard "People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing".  Instead, they go by their standard, "If I am here there is a reason and I am going to find it".  I mean, even after my case got closed as unfounded, she sent another CPS worker to my door insisting that I HAD to participate in this voluntary program to help my family because I could use the help.  Ummm.  I. Don't. Think. So!  She DESPERATELY wanted into our lives.  And if I had agreed to this voluntary program, I would have been committed to allowing them bi-weekly visits for 18 months!  Not to mention the "surprise" visits every month.  That is what I was PRESSURED and THREATENED to get into VOLUNTARILY.

 

BTW, I was also talking to a lawyer while she was talking to the police insisting on entry.  He specifically told us NOT to let her in.  Even he could hear the antagonism in her voice and said she would find something whether there was anything to find or not.

 

Asserting my rights, in a very polite fassion does not make me look like I am hiding something.  Even the police man that I did not allow into my house was very kind and did not feel that I was hiding something.  He took my side and wished me a good day when he left.


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#76 of 84 Old 11-30-2010, 08:21 AM
 
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I am a large, "religious" family, in a poor neighborhood, that does not vax, homebirths, homeschools, cosleeps, and had a disabled daughter due to an at-home accident some time before.  I was a string of red flags 

 

I actually have all the above myself. But 2 disabled kids.

 

It honestly can work against you. Esp when you are out of the norm of what society thinks. 99% of the time if there is nothing to find, then thats what theyw ill find. You are increasing yor odds of having then "find" soemthing that isnt there by obstructing an investigation.

 

I have worked for them. I was a foster parent. I know that in my area at least they are not looking to prove your guilty.

 

Do you honestly not think that if they truely wanted in that they couldnt get in?

 

That by denying them entry you were protecting your family? B/c I dont think that is good advice to others. 99% of the time that becomes the redflag.....not the original call.

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#77 of 84 Old 11-30-2010, 08:26 AM
 
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Actually they do care if your being abused..

 

If there is any type of abuse in the house..including abuse against the mother then they will remove any children in the home.

 

It is a new protocal they set into motion in the late 1990's. The child doesnt have to be abused, just in the home where the abuse in occuring and they are removed. 

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#78 of 84 Old 11-30-2010, 08:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beenmum View Post

Actually they do care if your being abused..

 

If there is any type of abuse in the house..including abuse against the mother then they will remove any children in the home.

 

It is a new protocal they set into motion in the late 1990's. The child doesnt have to be abused, just in the home where the abuse in occuring and they are removed. 


not true either. sorry to say but I called 911/cps on numerous occasions when I was pregnant and my ex was abusing me. I was concerned for his younger btoher as well who was witnessing the violence and not being treated/cared for properly. Nothing came of it. I had to walk to a shelter myself to get any help.

 

later when I tried to work things out and moved in with him again with my 1 yo ds, he assaulted me and I called 911, and HE ADMITTED TO HITTING me and the police still felt that I was to blame and did not want to help me. not only did they not make any effort to take my child but I asked to be driven to a shelter and they told me to take my own self there if I wanted to leave.


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#79 of 84 Old 11-30-2010, 10:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beenmum View Post

Do you honestly not think that if they truely wanted in that they couldnt get in?

 

That by denying them entry you were protecting your family? B/c I dont think that is good advice to others. 99% of the time that becomes the redflag.....not the original call.



I do believe that without probably cause, they will never be able to get into my house.  And I have been right.  They can't just dream up probable cause.  And since there was nothing to base a warrant on, I don't think there would have been any judge that would reasonably issue a warrant based on any of the "facts" the CW had on my family.

 

Was I protecting my family when I denied them entry to my home?  Absolutely!  But, not only that, I was protecting my RIGHTS as an American citizen.  I will not give those up to some stranger at my door on the threat that they will find something against me.  I had done nothing wrong.  I should not have to be treated like a criminal to prove it.  I am used to red flags, too.  I can handle them in a peaceful, and polite way.  I think it is the way you stand up for your rights that marks you for a red flag, not standing up, in and of itself.

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#80 of 84 Old 11-30-2010, 10:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beenmum View Post

Actually they do care if your being abused..

 

If there is any type of abuse in the house..including abuse against the mother then they will remove any children in the home.

 

It is a new protocal they set into motion in the late 1990's. The child doesnt have to be abused, just in the home where the abuse in occuring and they are removed. 


Except that in my case, my ex admitted to being physically abusive towards me the night before, and they gave HIM permission to further abuse me (by having his family stalk me, control my movements, etc).  So I don't think thats true AT ALL.  If they actually cared about children, the goal should be to get MOM and KIDS out of the house TOGETHER - b/c that would be the best scenario.

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#81 of 84 Old 11-30-2010, 10:54 AM
 
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I strongly agree that their goal should be to remove both the mum and the child together. But in cases where the mum chooses not to leave, then the child shoudlnt have to remain there and be a witness to that behaviour.

 

I'm sorry you did not get the support you needed. Comming from a professional stand point that is unacceptable.

 

I'm in Ontario, so I dont know about the states CPS protocal. Just what we do up here. And that was a new mandate in the late 1990's to remove children from abusive relationships. It would shock you to know how many women stay in abusive relationships even when their kids have been removed. So the best thing to do is to remove both mum and child. But when the mum is not willing, the child needs to be protected.

 

I myself was in an abusive relationship. I have used CAS and have had ot used against me. It is not perfect. Far from it.

 

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#82 of 84 Old 11-30-2010, 11:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by beenmum View Post
 It would shock you to know how many women stay in abusive relationships even when their kids have been removed. So the best thing to do is to remove both mum and child. But when the mum is not willing, the child needs to be protected.

 



The guy that abused me was removed from his home as a child because his mother refused to leave her abusive boyfriend. :( And unfortunately I don't think being in foster care was much better seeing as he ended up abusing me.

 

(Sorry guess that's kind of random to the conversation, continue on!)


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#83 of 84 Old 11-30-2010, 01:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by beenmum View Post
 It would shock you to know how many women stay in abusive relationships even when their kids have been removed. So the best thing to do is to remove both mum and child. But when the mum is not willing, the child needs to be protected.

 



The guy that abused me was removed from his home as a child because his mother refused to leave her abusive boyfriend. :( And unfortunately I don't think being in foster care was much better seeing as he ended up abusing me.

 

(Sorry guess that's kind of random to the conversation, continue on!)


Sounds like you blame foster care for your abuser's abuse, not the fact that he witnessed abuse before he was taken into care.  That's a lot unfair to all the awesome foster parents out there.
 

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#84 of 84 Old 11-30-2010, 03:34 PM
 
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by beenmum View Post
 It would shock you to know how many women stay in abusive relationships even when their kids have been removed. So the best thing to do is to remove both mum and child. But when the mum is not willing, the child needs to be protected.

 



The guy that abused me was removed from his home as a child because his mother refused to leave her abusive boyfriend. :( And unfortunately I don't think being in foster care was much better seeing as he ended up abusing me.

 

(Sorry guess that's kind of random to the conversation, continue on!)


Sounds like you blame foster care for your abuser's abuse, not the fact that he witnessed abuse before he was taken into care.  That's a lot unfair to all the awesome foster parents out there.
 


No no... sorry I was typing quickly because DS was driving me nuts. I'm sure witnessing abuse & being abused (before going into foster care) was a big part of why he became abusive... and unfortunately he had a couple of really bad foster homes so that just made things worse. I know there are great foster parents out there & even some of the less great ones are likely better than being an abusive home, sorry if I offended anyone.


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