Why can't I be just a mother??!! "AP vs.Mainstreem Parents" - Page 9 - Mothering Forums

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#241 of 301 Old 04-13-2004, 09:19 PM
 
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Now, if instead I tell someone who choses to use disposables, that they may as well line them with poison if they are going to put them on their babys behind instead of cd'ing.
how about the grey area... parents who use completely biodegradable, earth-friendly disposables that have none of the chemicals of normal sposies...?

(something else i was wondering about earlier in the thread and i don't think i posted.)
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#242 of 301 Old 04-13-2004, 09:24 PM
 
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:LOL klothos, that was just a crazy example I made up, trying to get my point across...I was trying to be extreme... :LOL


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#243 of 301 Old 04-13-2004, 10:05 PM
 
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is donated milk not readily available to parents? is it not high quality or not tested for diseases? are there no local milk banks? is it in short supply?
No, to all of the above, my dear, at least where I live.

And I did actually read a suggestion once here on MDC that women who couldn't bf should adopt their children out so they can receive proper nutrition. The implication is if you can't make the milk, you're not a 'real' mama. What good does that do except break my heart into even tinier pieces?

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#244 of 301 Old 04-13-2004, 10:09 PM
 
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famous, ICM...you guys are making me feel all warm and squishy inside...

I wanted to say that I do agree with you, Mommiska, that the responsibility for hurt feelings doesn't end with the one being hurt. We do each have a responsibility to think about what we've said and how we've said it. Many a time I've had to ask someone to edit, when it wasn't their message that was a problem - it was the way they said it. I struggle with foot-in-mouth syndrome myself, and I have gotten alot better (McDonald's comments notwithstanding...geez, I think this one is gonna follow me for a bit ). So yes, I agree we all owe it to ourselves to chose our words carefully.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't tend to assume the worst of people. Sometimes people say things and just honestly, innocently, aren't aware of certain issues that may make their comments hurtful to some. Others, I think, are just really passionate and caught up in their enthusiasm. I really think there are very few cases here where someone is just deliberately nasty (though I know it happens).

I think it's really interesting also, to see where we all vary on what we are passionate about, and what we are "whatever works for you" about. I'm passionate about BFing, but I wouldn't say the same about CDing (obsessed, maybe, but passionate...not sure, lol). I wish everybody knew the joys and ease of babywearing, but most kids I see in strollers seem fairly content and I do see people responding when they cry. I'm passionate about not circ'ing, and iffy on the vax thing (as in, I vax, but I also totally respect the non-vaxers).

Maybe this complicates things, because it isn't just our level of passion that influences "judgementalism" (is that a word?), but when all of us are passionate to varying degrees about various aspects of parenting....wow, now that I think about it, it's amazing we get along as well as we do, lol. (must be all the wonderful mods, right? ).

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#245 of 301 Old 04-13-2004, 10:21 PM
 
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Originally posted by aussiemum
And I did actually read a suggestion once here on MDC that women who couldn't bf should adopt their children out so they can receive proper nutrition.
Aussiemum

That someone could say something so ridiculous is amazing.

That’s not advocacy, that’s stupidity.

(Sorry I’m being judgmental of another's cruel judgmental comment. Oh my!)
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#246 of 301 Old 04-13-2004, 10:36 PM
 
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Originally posted by klothos
for those of you who ff and really look down on formula... why not use donated breastmilk?
Well, for starters you need a prescription to get it. Generally they only give donated milk to babies with severe allergies or other medical reasons. There are only 7 milk banks in North America. It costs about $2 an ounce, plus shipping, so even if you didn't need a prescription it would be prohibitively expensive for most people, myself included. (Usually your health insurance will offset the cost, though.)
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#247 of 301 Old 04-13-2004, 10:50 PM
 
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For the OP

The Knot has a baby talk forum that might interest you. A number of women who post there seem very "main stream" you might feel more comfortable over there.

HTH

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#248 of 301 Old 04-13-2004, 10:52 PM
 
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Originally posted by aussiemum
No, to all of the above, my dear, at least where I live.

And I did actually read a suggestion once here on MDC that women who couldn't bf should adopt their children out so they can receive proper nutrition. The implication is if you can't make the milk, you're not a 'real' mama. What good does that do except break my heart into even tinier pieces?
OMG! : How awful! I am a bf'ing nazi , but I certainly cannot imagine thinking that way. I'm thankful that formula is here for babies who cannot be breastfed.

I'm sorry you had to see that.
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#249 of 301 Old 04-13-2004, 10:55 PM
 
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Originally posted by mamasoleil
Though I'm still bfing my 8 mth old, I stopped nursing my 3.5mth old, and swiched to formula.
Do tell how you have two babies that are 4.5 months apart!
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#250 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 12:07 AM
 
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No, to all of the above, my dear, at least where I live.
to which i was going to ask, why not use it then, but read...

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Well, for starters you need a prescription to get it.
WHAT?? :

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Generally they only give donated milk to babies with severe allergies or other medical reasons.
what if a mother has cancer and can't nurse her baby...? do they just tell her to use formula and get over it?

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There are only 7 milk banks in North America. It costs about $2 an ounce, plus shipping....


why do all of my bf'ing books talk about them like they're everywhere and readily available, that if you can't nurse you can use donated breastmilk, if there are so few...?

why is it so expensive? just the scarcity? so few people donating? are people paid to donate? i was under the impression it was rather like a blood bank... you go in, you get screened for diseases, you donate, you feel better knowing that you helped the world.

this is ridiculous. is anybody working to increase the availability of breastmilk to mothers who can't nurse? this seems like a huge issue to me.
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#251 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 12:18 AM
 
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ITA, but I think if you want to really get into it you should start a new thread.

To answer your questions, I think not many people donate, and it costs a lot to "process" it - I believe it has to be pasturized, etc. (though I could be wrong about that). I was amazed also to find out how few banks there really are, because like you I was under the impression that donated milk is readily available. And yeah, I think the mom with cancer would be SOOL.
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#252 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 12:25 AM
 
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I have a lot of issues with how the breastfeeding books & manuals tell you things will be. It often doesn't match up with reality, IMO.

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#253 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 12:35 AM
 
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T

Piglet.....I went to the other thread on "identity" and posted something and apologized for being all squishy....then came to this thread and you said the exact same thing! HOw weird is that!!


sorry.......carry on........
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#254 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 12:37 AM
 
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well... i'm angry. i guess i just feel misled.

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I have a lot of issues with how the breastfeeding books & manuals tell you things will be. It often doesn't match up with reality, IMO.
i already took issue w/ the fact that they all say your milk will come in quickly and easily, and that if you have a proper latch you won't experience any pain...

it's just... disappointing i guess, or disheartening. or both.

Quote:
To answer your questions, I think not many people donate, and it costs a lot to "process" it - I believe it has to be pasturized, etc. (though I could be wrong about that).
i just looked it up, and they do pasteurize it... according to one millk bank's website...

Your milk will be pasteurized by the milk bank so that viruses are killed, but almost all of the passive immunity in breast milk will remain.

that bothers me too. i mean, i understand why they do it, that makes sense... but the whole point of breastfeeding -- IMO -- is that you're giving a live, whole, raw food that's perfect...

:

(( this issue just got a whole lot less black & white... ))
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#255 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 12:55 AM
 
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well... i'm angry. i guess i just feel misled.
I can relate to that, klothos. I thought a lot of things about breastfeeding before I actually did it.......

I think it's partly that bf'ing has been put down & dismissed for so long, that you just get some sort of hyperbolic reaction to all the anti-bf stuff that's come before. It's an advocates response....... just do 'this' & it will all be okay. well, like everything with parenting, it's usually not that easy.........

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#256 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 03:42 AM
 
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I’ll take a stab at the passion thing and the “to each their own” question because the milk bank subject has got me thinking about another factor.

First, let me say that “to each their own” doesn’t really describe my feelings on this very well. When I see or hear something that I worry is hurtful I don’t automatically think, “to each their own”. What I *try* do is to be understanding and helpful and if I can’t do that I’m usually judgmental but I try to avoid that. Like I said, I’m not perfect. (btw, if you feel humbled by my description of the activists I’ve met – good – so do I)

The reason I think understanding is so important to avoiding being judgmental is because I’ve read many times about people who were judgmental about this or that until they found themselves in the same situation – “walked a mile…” to me that is the ultimate way of understanding.

I do, however, take a major “to each their own” standpoint about isolated things that *I personally* feel are not harmful when factored into a basically positive parenting package. I don’t know if you all know what I mean by this but one of my frustrations is when I feel that there is an over importance placed on isolated parenting choices. I truly think that children (and adults) are tremendously resilient – much more so than we give them credit for.

I wanted to talk a little about passion. I guess you could say that I’m generally less passionate than some people here. I’ve been in this place of, “The more I learn the less I know” for quite a while. I must say that I really don’t mind it – it’s a peaceful place for me to be because I feel I’m very open learning new things with this philosophy.

I think the passion thing has another element though. The political stuff plays a big role, imo. I can tell you that most people breastfeed in Germany, for instance. They also bank milk and “lending” milk is a common thing. My friends here don’t understand my passion for breastfeeding because it’s not a political issue for them – I’m not saying it shouldn’t be but it just isn’t.

I’m going to go back and read some more and come back later if DC is still sleeping…

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#257 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 04:20 AM
 
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Originally posted by Piglet68
I know for me, I chose to do the things I do b/c I felt it was absolutely in the best interests of my child's physical and emotional well-being. I don't consider it a "lifestyle choice".

…Anyways, I guess what I'm asking is: did most of us here choose to do the things we do (cosleeping, babywearing, GD, whatever) simply b/c we felt "hey, that fits me, that's conducive to my lifestyle"....was it that benign? For me, alot of it is much deeper than that. Maybe that is why some of us have an easier time being less judgemental than others. Maybe it has to do with the level of passion behind your choices...what do you think?
I think you are on to something but I think maybe it has to do with a difference in what a person bases their choices on. Our family is not child centered (we’re family centered). Maybe if I was (child centered) it would be harder for me to understand how anyone could choose based on different criteria.

I must confess though that most “AP” things actually did have the best fit with my lifestyle. I didn’t struggle with the decision to have a HB, BFing came very easy for us, Babywearing works so well for us that I’ve often thought I would sling anyway even if it was discovered to be harmful, Co-sleeping is what works best for us, I’m against routine circumcision because it makes no sense to me but I’m humbled by the knowledge that I could have easily missed that one if I’d had a child earlier in my life (and with a different DH – who is passionately anti-cir), I struggled with CDing and I regret only making it to 8 months (I totally look forward to trying again now that I know more than white prefolds and plastic covers – my personal “justification” for my shortcoing), I do struggle with discipline but I am dedicated to doing an acceptable job and as of yet I haven’t hit or totally lost it (although I work very hard)

I think I am humbled by the fact that I was lucky that some of these things came easy for me. I don’t know what I would have “chosen” if I had been significantly challenged.

I also listed my “AP” credentials to counter this idea that you are only sensitive about how these issues are talked about if you aren’t “comfortable in your skin”. It isn’t always about people reacting against their own insecurities, fyi.

Edited to clarify what I meant - I am no more and no less passionate, dedicated, and/or judgmental about GD, which is very challenging for me than, say BF, which came very easily for me. For me, it’s not about how secure I am or whether or not I even practice something that makes me dedicated to supporting other parents.

Gotta go…DC’s up and hungry.

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#258 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 08:13 AM
 
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I can answer the question as to why there isn't more donated milk available. First, most moms who pump amounts of significance are either exclusive pumpers (for health or latch issues) or working pumpers, meaning they are replacing nursing sessions with pumping sessions, which almost invariably has a bad effect on supply. So we are struggling to make enough for our own babies to eat and a little extra to freeze just in case. Second most of us are taking galactagogues of some sort, either "natural" like fenugreek or blessed thistle, or pharmaceutical like reglan or domperidone. Milk banks don't accept milk from mothers who have been using any of these substances in case the babies who need the milk might be sensitive. The milk has to be really "pure". A third issue for me is that I like a glass of wine or a cocktail now and then and I have no issue with nursing anyway, but this would not be appropriate to expose someone else's baby to. Fourth, even a fulltime SAHM would have to take time away from her baby to hook up to the pump, probably 20-30 minutes a day to get even a mere 4 ounces, if she's lucky, and most moms probably don't want to do that just for altruistic reasons. Since fifth, there is no compensation.

I have 180 ounces of milk in my freezer which sounds like a lot but works out to be only a little more than a 2-week supply if I were to stop pumping at work. It has taken me four months to build up that surplus, some of which is "tainted" with either fenugreek or domperidone, so none of it is donatable anyway. My goal is to quit pumping at one year and then give him the frozen milk until it runs out. I feel very possessive of that milk belonging to Isaac and I would not want to give it away even if there were no other contraindications to donating.

My hat is off to women who donate, I think it is admirable but it is far from being an easy thing to do.
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#259 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 09:47 AM
 
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I wanted to address the idea that more passion=more judgement. This is only partly true, IMO. I am a very strong (might say militant) advocate for a certain cause (think the most hot-button debate in the US - but I won't talk specifics as to land this thread in activism :LOL).

So, I am a very extreme advocate for this one cause- always have been. I have found that extreme passion/activism- goes through stages of growth. First- you get mad/upset/angry about said cause, next you get all kinds of judgemental, then you start to wonder what good your judgemental nature is doing (I think this is what Identity Crisis mama has been trying to say)

Then- you say to yourself- if I want to make a difference- *I* need to understand where the other side is coming from, *I* need to see the other side as intelligent and thoughtful and treat them as such, *I* need to use the least insensitive/least inflammatory terms possible so that people hear me when I talk, and- I need to listen more. I have to remember the people who are hurt by said cause- I have to be careful not to hurt them more- I need to be available to help them- if they want/need my help. I need to educate those who are at risk, instead of preaching to the choir or beating up on those who can't go back and make a different choice/decision.

You see, when you REALLY feel strongly about something, you have to do what it takes to make actual change- which judgementalism/ harsh words/ and venting just doesn't do, YK?

It's not about thinking whatever anyone else says/does as being ok, it's about caring about the individuals and working to do what ACTUALLY helps the cause.

I am working on being better at this myself- I have found it's a process and takes time to mature into (that's why I'm not quite there yet ). For a different example- I only recently became angry about circumcision, I'm still in the judgemental/ rarely helping anyone stage, I want to move on with it to where I can still think it's absolutely wrong, but I can focus on the actual making a difference part, which is much more important than my anger which doesn't help anyone.


I am hoping at least part of that made some sense:LOL

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#260 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 10:53 AM
 
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Oh my goodness, Jess7396 - are you me?! I feel that I could have written almost everything you wrote.

I wanted to address the more passion=more judgementalism issue as well, but there isn't any need - you've summed up what I had to say so articulately - thanks!

I think I've gone through this process with respect to breastfeeding. When dd1 was a baby, I could not fathom why anyone would even supplement with formula, much less formula feed all the time.

Several years (and a few moments that were truly ) later, and I have realised that even this issue - which I once thought was so black and white, has shades of grey.

There are still situations that make me sad with respect to breast-feeding, and I still get very annoyed at formula companies, etc., etc. - but I'm learning that the way to make a difference isn't by ranting...

Jess7396 - I also just recently got angry about circumcision, and I can totally see that I'm in the unhelpful stage of being too angry/judgemental about the fact that circumcision is even allowed to be very helpful at giving parents the information they need to have in order to see clearly what is happening in RIC.
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#261 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 12:48 PM
 
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Originally posted by jess7396
You see, when you REALLY feel strongly about something, you have to do what it takes to make actual change- which judgementalism/ harsh words/ and venting just doesn't do, YK?

It's not about thinking whatever anyone else says/does as being ok, it's about caring about the individuals and working to do what ACTUALLY helps the cause.


Awesome! Now, I have to ask what your personal advocacy issue is because I couldn’t get it from the hint.

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#262 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 02:03 PM
 
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My sister told me she was a wet nurse in the 80s when she had her dc's. Im trying to get a hold of her to find out how that worked...... Ill get back...
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#263 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 03:22 PM
 
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Slightly OT, but -

Back when I was pumping breast milk for Cole (I pumped exclusively and he got NO formula during that time - talk about exhausting) I had built up about 200 oz. of frozen milk, too. I used to pump ALL THE TIME because I was so afraid of losing my supply. That stuff was like gold to me. Then we had an ice storm and practically the whole city lost electricity, and all my frozen milk went to waste.
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#264 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 07:35 PM
 
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Originally posted by famousmockngbrd
Then we had an ice storm and practically the whole city lost electricity, and all my frozen milk went to waste.
OMG! I think I would have sat down and just bawled!
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#265 of 301 Old 04-14-2004, 07:56 PM
 
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T I had a huge oversupply when Eli was small and would have been more than happy to donate milk; I even looked into it. The only problem is that the nearest milk bank was too far away for me to get to to be tested & to ship my milk to (would have cost me too much money. ) If I lived in North Carolina, I'd have been a champion pumper! And what's wrong with white prefolds & plastic covers? That's 80% of our system! :LOL

I still don't think that more passion = more judgement, but I do believe that more compassion = less judgement. This is a fabulous thread, it'll definately be one for the archives! :LOL

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
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#266 of 301 Old 04-15-2004, 03:31 AM
 
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Rainsmom, I was not a wet nurse by any stretch of the imagination I have nursed other people’s children. Also, DC has been nursed by another mother.

Famousmockngbrd, OMG! I’ll bet your still cringe thinking about it. I remember reading about someone who had this happen last year at MDC – was that you?

Eilonwy, I hope you don’t feel judged by what I said white prefolds, LOL! :LOL

All I can say is that if I can work out some of my compulsive clothing shopping issues and CD at the same time – I’d definitely have enough motivation to keep up with it.

I know what you mean about having too much milk and being frustrated because you were willing to donate and couldn’t. I have a friend donating right now. I heard that in Germany if your supply is too large (common concern here) they just hook you right up to a pump for donations.


Anyone feel up for a discussion on ways they have practiced being non-judgmental - What has had an effect and what hasn’t?

I wish the OP was here still because maybe she could have helped us learn how we could have responded to her better.

I’ll share a story that happened recently.

DC had a huge (30 minute) tantrum while I was out in town. There was the added stress of me living in a new country where people tend to openly “tisk” at parents because of some random disapproval. Anyway we sat down in a small park so I could help her. Across the park, a police woman was walking by and I could just feel her eyes on me – making me even more stressed.

Anyway, I looked up to her and, much to my surprise; she was smiling the most understanding, compassionate smile down at me. The way she was looking at me she was telling me that she understood what I was going through and, more importantly, that I was doing a good job. We waved to each other and my stress melted away. She didn’t need to judge me in order to help me. She didn’t need to have strong feelings about how a person should handle a tantrum – she helped me by understanding what I was going through. She helped me that day by supporting me –and she helped my child through me.

I know this is a simple story but I truly believe that if we all practiced these small bits of kindness we could make a huge impact.

I have turely gotten a mental work out on this thread. I hope it carries on and that I can keep up even though my in-laws are coming today.

Anyway, talk to you later, Hannah

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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#267 of 301 Old 04-15-2004, 01:59 PM
 
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DD was about 8 months old when I saw the news story on our local channel about our milk bank (this was in Vancouver, BC) needing donations. It was the only one left in Canada, and therefore was only able to supply really sick and premature babies. I called in after the show - they were so overwhelmed with responses it took them many weeks to carry out the interview process. They asked me some basic health questions. They asked for a commitment of 100 oz in 3 months. There were several places around town to drop off the milk. Unfortunately, you have to be less than 1 year post-partum to donate (the fat content changes too much by then) and by the time I was all cleared, DD was 1! But if I'm in Vancouver with this baby, I will definitely be a donor (barring any troubles that is).

I used to be one of those (completely naive and immature) people who would get aggravated at children being loud and having tantrums. Now that I'm a mother myself, I make a concerted effort to smile at any parent with a wailing or screaming child. Sometimes I worry that they might think I'm making light of things, but I"m trying to let them know "hey, we've all been there".

At the playground one day, there was a mum with a toddler and a young baby. The baby was stuck in his stroller alot while she tended to the toddler. I finally decided to go keep him company, rather than sit there and judge her for not having the brains (or perhaps physical ability?) to use a sling. And while I played, I listened to the mother dealing with her cranky toddler. She was wonderful. So calm and reassuring and validating and everything I wanted to be when my child was older and acting like that. I got the feeling that she was feeling self-concious, maybe she's been criticized for not being "firmer"...so I went and told her how much I admired how she had handled it all, and that I thought she was setting a wonderful example. She really lit up after I said that. I felt good about that.

Gee, isn't this getting warm and fuzzy?

[i'm definitely archiving this one!]

teapot2.GIF Homeschooling, Homesteading Mama to DD ('02) and DS ('04)  ribbonjigsaw.gif blogging.jpg homeschool.gif

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#268 of 301 Old 04-15-2004, 02:28 PM
 
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[
Anyone feel up for a discussion on ways they have practiced being non-judgmental - What has had an effect and what hasn’t?
]
I've been following this thread with varying emotions, but I like the turn it has taken, and I wanted to respond to this question/comment.

I make up stories.

Honestly. I figure that each of us has an ongoing train of "self-talk" that, if we are honest, is based on our very personal PERCEPTION of what is occuring in the world around us. That perception is wildly affected by all sorts of things.... our history, our experiences, our personalities, what happened to us that morning, 2 minutes ago, 30 seconds ago. So if my self-talk begins "ugh, look at that mama, how can she be ignoring that little babe in that carseat thing? pick him up! pick him up!" And IF I am in good mental space and able to be generous (which I continually strive for but of course don't always succeed), I literally make up a story that allows me to have more compassion for her. Because the truth is, my story (my current/inital/gut reaction story) is just as made up as the one I make up on purpose. So I tell myself "she has a colicky baby and she holds him all the time, but right now she has just put him down so she can get through the checkout line and in reality, he'd still be crying if she were holding him.... etc etc." Because what's to say that my initial judgemental reaction has anything to do with the truth?

Anyway, it helps me have more compassion and not be so angry all the time.

I can completely relate to the discussion of the "stages" one goes through in becoming an "activist." There are still times when I feel such white-blinding rage at the Bush administration, environmental set-backs, etc, that I can't even have a reasonably intelligent conversation about it. Talk about ineffective.

Thanks for this thread mamas

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#269 of 301 Old 04-15-2004, 02:46 PM
 
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Famousmockngbrd, OMG! I’ll bet your still cringe thinking about it. I remember reading about someone who had this happen last year at MDC – was that you?
Possibly - it did happen last year. And yeah, it does still make me cringe and yeah, I did sit down and bawl! That was such a hard time, it's like my whole memory of it is shrouded in darkness. Maybe because it really WAS dark because we were without power for 9 days in the dead of winter! LOL

This thread has really taught me a lot.

One thing I do to keep from being judgemental is I remind myself that everyone is an ex-child. Since becoming a mother myself, I find that if I try to look at everyone as having once been a little child in the arms of their mother, it makes me treat them more gently. I know I wouldn't want someone to ever treat MY child harshy, even if it's just thinking harsh things about them, and I feel like I'm doing some unknown mother a favor by being kind to her child, if that makes any sense.
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#270 of 301 Old 04-16-2004, 06:28 AM
 
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Before I had Jack, I would judge parents harshly whose kids were loud, crying, etc. I used to think, "That person needs to get some parenting lessons!" Now when I see a crying child in a public situation I feel nothing but empathy for the parent. Experience has been a wise teacher for me. I think that is the one thing that has helped me be less judgemental: that I used to have such very strong unwavering beliefs about what I would never accept as a parent... and now I have been humbled by the reality of being one.
Of course, there are still some parenting behaviors I find unacceptable... but in the general sense, I try to be understanding first and judgemental last.
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