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8K views 132 replies 64 participants last post by  meemee 
#1 ·
I am really wondering how others feel about this. What is the point of college? I always thought it was to help in a future career. But if you are going to major in something that will not lead to employment, that it might be a waste of money. I used to think it would be nice to go to college and just major in what a person is really interested in, even if it is social history of the American Colonial period. But in reality, if you spend a lot of money on college, it should probably be a major that you can move toward a job in. But I also heard on a financial show the other day, that any major is better than no college or delaying college. That many careers are not major specific so in many cases, it does not really matter what you major in, you just need that degree.

I am asking because my two older children say they want to major in computer science (my son) and music (my daughter). I worry because my daughter says she does not want to teach, but loves music so she wants to major in it. If she says she does not want to teach or work with children in any way (she said that too) what can she possibly do with a degree and music? I am picturing us spending a bunch of money on college and/or her having a bunch of student loans, only to have her move back home and work a minimum wage job to try to pay back those loans.

So, I am really interested in opinions and ideas and personal experiences. Thanks!
 
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#102 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post

That doesn't seem like much for a college education. When you think about how much more money college graduates make, on average, than people without a degree, it's definitely worth it!
I agree - that's far lower than I would have expected for 4 years and a degree. Student loans are low-interest and the payments aren't a huge burden every month. I remember I was paying $112/month for I think a $20k loan. And because I had automatic bill pay, I was never late, and it was great for my credit score, which ended up saving me money in the long run on things like car and home loans.
 
#103 ·
A) to learn the things I didn't learn in high school, more well rounded, better depth of subject matter

B) to be able to support myself and my children should something happen to my dh

C) to be the first graduate of college in my extended family (go me!)

D) to be able to tell my kids that "if I could do it, so can you".
 
#105 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by NicaG View Post
I think expensive private liberal arts colleges are generally a waste of money and produce graduates who are lacking in life skills and saddled with debt.
I don't agree. I think this can occur, but they also have their benefits. I went to an expensive private liberal arts college with a lot of scholarships, and didn't have a ton of debt when I graduated (and most of those schools do have a lot of scholarships). It was a great experience for me with a great community that really helped me grow as a person. I'd have been swallowed up at a big public school, I am positive--I've done my doctoral degree at a big public school so I know what it's like. I knew when I was 17 that it would make me crazy and I didn't want to do it, and everything that has happened at the big school has confirmed that. The instructional quality at my school was high because an institution that is mostly focused on undergrad teaching gets more professors who are good at that, rather than getting professors who are research leaders but may or may not actually be able to teach and in either case have their grad students doing the majority of the work. I did leave without a few life skills I would have liked to learn, but I was able to pick most of them up fairly readily, and the biggest source of "What am I going to do in the Real World when I graduate?" stress was that I didn't know how to drive, which is really my parents' fault and not the fault of the school. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but it was the right place for me.
 
#107 ·
\

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicaG View Post

\I am very conflicted in my feelings about college. It is expensive and in many ways it can be a waste of time and money, but when you are done you have a recognized societal stamp of approval that allows you to apply for a wide variety of jobs. I think expensive private liberal arts colleges are generally a waste of money and produce graduates who are lacking in life skills and saddled with debt.
I have a liberal arts degree from a very expensive private college. My stepfather paid for my education, so I am very lucky to have no debt from college. And it was a fantastic experience. Someone mentioned literally having their eyes opened and college, and that is what a LAC did for me. I was exposed to so many different things, and 99% of them had no direct bearing on my future income...but when you put it all together I graduated with great critical thinking, writing, and presentation skills. And a lot of confidence and social skills that I would not have learned without leaving home, going far away, and living in a situation where I met a ton of people that were very different than myself.

Now, all that said--college is prohibitively expensive now. I just read an article that said students are stressed and depressed about the price--and I suspect that my happy go lucky college experience is a thing of the past. There are some movements afoot to point out just how unnecessary and overpriced college has become--I'll try to come back with links. And one of the articles I was reading the other day basically said you could give your kid 200K and there are many other worthwhile things that they could do with that money that might be just as useful. Like starting a business. Or starting 10 businesses! I'm not sure I agree or disagree with that--but I'm still thinking about it!

I also wish that I could go to college now and do it all over again. I loved college, got a lot out of it, have no regrets...but man, if I went now?? I'd be on fire academically and I would take advantage of EVERYTHING!
 
#108 ·
I too did not read all of the replies but I disagree with people who think that college is necessary for "success". You and your children need to have your own defnition of success. I do agree with some posts that said it sounds like your daughter may not be ready for college. And I think that is OK. Do you want to spend a ton of money for an 18 year old to figure it out? If she can think of a goal/career she would eventually use her music degree for, why not let her work/intership/volunteer for a year in that area and see if she really likes it or what opportunities there are. You might still be paying for most or all of her living expenses but you'd be doing that if she were in school anyway and she might honestly learn more this way. If she can't give you some sense of "what she wants to be when she grows up" (and who the heck can at that age!) then you are still better off saving that money while she matures for another year.

I am a college drop out (more than once for a host of reasons). I am a 38 year old, SMBC to a 2.5 year old. I just purchased my first home. I am successful by just about any definition, certainly my own which is what really counts. I have a good paying, stable, long term job that I enjoy. I have worked in the same industry for nearly 20 years. I think that college does not make people successful, people make themselves successful. Do you think that some super smart got it all together kid who doesn't go to college isn't going to be successful? Maybe they will start their own business, a non profit or change the world in a way we cannot imagine and college would literally get in the way of.

I just don't think it is the end all be all. Am I saving for my daughter's college education? Sure, because I think it is one of many choices for which I 'd like to be prepared.
 
#109 ·
A few thoughts on this:

1. She is taking the PSATs. She does not need to have a career picked out at this stage. It is very likely that she will change her mind.

2. If she auditions for a music major at Julliard (or any comparable conservatory) and gets in, that's a huge achievement. Should she become one of the 25% of Julliard graduates seeking employment outside her field, employers are bound to be impressed with the level of focus and discipline required to get into the school and complete the course of study.

3. If she decides to go to Julliard and doesn't like it, she can transfer, because Julliard has an excellent reputation.

4. If she sticks with her current, somewhat unrealistic-sounding plan and only applies to Julliard and doesn't get in, but has excellent grades in other subjects, she can reconsider her options and apply to another school.

I don't see a good reason to step on her dream right now.

The point of college? There are many possible reasons it can be worthwhile. One is to provide another transition to independent adulthood, as you pick your own major and become responsible for doing your own homework without your parents' supervision. Obviously, it's not for everyone, as many people figure out other ways to become independent and accrue necessary skills and credentials for their chosen career.

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Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

With the PSATs in the fall, they have to put down, I think, a selection of colleges to send their scores to. I know they can add more later (for an extra cost) so I wanted the to at least think about colleges and maybe places they might want to look at closer. They have gotten a lot of college materials in the mail this year. My son has a very reasonable college with a variety of majors available. My daughter only wants to apply to Julliard. She is very smart and makes good grades, but Julliard is a hard one to get in to. Plus, if she goes there and decides later she does not want to major in music, she will sort of be out of luck.
 
#112 ·
Really interesting to read through all these responses. Brings up a lot of feelings, for sure. I'm also conflicted about the whole higher education experience. I'm very happily a homemaker at 28, first babe on the way in less than a month .... and I have a Ph.D. in molecular biology. No debts. My husband (who is employed in his Ph.D. field and hopes to continue) and I don't owe anyone a dime. I like that a lot. I did community college -> local univeristy --> Ph.D. school out of state. Undergrad was awesome. How great to have the freedom to just learn learn learn while being (I felt) respected as an adult. Ph.D. school was less awesome as time went by. I feel like Ph.D. in hard sciences (my experience) is a huge crapshoot, both in what your experience getting the degree will be and what kind of employment prospects you'll have afterward. That's not even talking about the many many issues I learned that I had with the general culture of my subfield and what it can mean (and what you might have to give up) to be respected & "successful." Can we say 70 hour work weeks & rampant sexism? Well, that's a whole other can of worms. Anywhooo....

OP, it's interesting to me how you are noticing that your daughter might be infatuated with music because of the positive attention she gets from it. Looking back, I think that is a huge reason why I went into (& stayed too long in) science! What an ego boost it all was for me. It is hard, as a young person, to honestly figure yourself out when lots of people around you are showering down admiration. I think you are right on in your gut feelings on that. I have no clue how one can share this wisdom with a teenager .... it might be one of those things that only one's own experience can teach.

By the way, some one was talking about education expenses when going into the sciences .... you should know that it is standard, at least in math & science, to get a tuition waiver and stipend for Ph.D. programs. The best programs also do not require teaching to support yourself, although this is not always true (for example, many mathematics programs, environmental science programs, and others ... even the best ones). But any program without a tuition waiver and livable stipend is not a program worth considering. For many schools, tuition waiver/stipend is the norm for all Ph.D. programs (where I went to grad school, this was normal even for English Ph.Ds, although they were required to teach throughout). And for hard sciences, at least, you go right from undergrad --> Ph.D., no Master's required. (p.s. This is just a heads-up on how it works, not an endorsement! Indeed, I think some of these things are not in the students' best interest and are how you can get sucked in to something that might be not be your cup of tea!)
 
#113 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by homestyle View Post

Really interesting to read through all these responses. Brings up a lot of feelings, for sure. I'm also conflicted about the whole higher education experience. I'm very happily a homemaker at 28, first babe on the way in less than a month .... and I have a Ph.D. in molecular biology. No debts. My husband (who is employed in his Ph.D. field and hopes to continue) and I don't owe anyone a dime. I like that a lot. I did community college -> local univeristy --> Ph.D. school out of state. Undergrad was awesome. How great to have the freedom to just learn learn learn while being (I felt) respected as an adult. Ph.D. school was less awesome as time went by. I feel like Ph.D. in hard sciences (my experience) is a huge crapshoot, both in what your experience getting the degree will be and what kind of employment prospects you'll have afterward. That's not even talking about the many many issues I learned that I had with the general culture of my subfield and what it can mean (and what you might have to give up) to be respected & "successful." Can we say 70 hour work weeks & rampant sexism? Well, that's a whole other can of worms. Anywhooo....

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I'm a postdoc in a "hard science" I totally hear you. I really lucked out with my advisor and now boss for many reasons but I have a number of friends who were not as lucky. I've known a handful who have overcome the whole "bad advisor" thing (and actually seem that much stronger because of it) but I have to say it's not an experience I personally want.
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I think one of the biggest problems is that many undergrads choose a school for its name and don't necessarily think about what type of an advisor they'll have in whatever field they're interested in. You could be utterly fascinated with the field but the only person available at your university could be a horrible advisor.

OP, it's interesting to me how you are noticing that your daughter might be infatuated with music because of the positive attention she gets from it. Looking back, I think that is a huge reason why I went into (& stayed too long in) science! What an ego boost it all was for me. It is hard, as a young person, to honestly figure yourself out when lots of people around you are showering down admiration. I think you are right on in your gut feelings on that. I have no clue how one can share this wisdom with a teenager .... it might be one of those things that only one's own experience can teach.

Ditto. I picked my field because it was "hard".
eyesroll.gif
I actually really wanted to do law but everyone discouraged me from it for various reasons (mostly because they thought I'd be selling out or be too stressed out, sigh...). I like what I do but I don't feel that love that I felt for other things in the past.

By the way, some one was talking about education expenses when going into the sciences .... you should know that it is standard, at least in math & science, to get a tuition waiver and stipend for Ph.D. programs. The best programs also do not require teaching to support yourself, although this is not always true (for example, many mathematics programs, environmental science programs, and others ... even the best ones). But any program without a tuition waiver and livable stipend is not a program worth considering. For many schools, tuition waiver/stipend is the norm for all Ph.D. programs (where I went to grad school, this was normal even for English Ph.Ds, although they were required to teach throughout). And for hard sciences, at least, you go right from undergrad --> Ph.D., no Master's required. (p.s. This is just a heads-up on how it works, not an endorsement! Indeed, I think some of these things are not in the students' best interest and are how you can get sucked in to something that might be not be your cup of tea!)

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. I also have no debt (got a full-scholarship for undergrad) and actually made a decent amount to do my Ph.D. Another thing I found was that as a female science major there were a LOT of scholarships available. I was able to travel abroad extensively because people were practically trying to give away all the money they had to a female scientist.
 
#114 ·
Another science PhD here - (my degree is in neurobiology and behavior). I decided not to stay in academia and went to work for a startup instead.
I got out of school with minimal education debt (less than 5K of loans from my undergrad) and my PhD had a decent stipend for a single person to live on (buying a house and starting a family - not so much).
I found that my training and my credentials got me into a position I have now (I went straight from school into a lead scientist position) and with my work experience added I should many highly prestigious career opportunities. I'm really glad I got my education even though the PhD was hard and very trying, (in retrospect - my advisor was not only sexist but also verbally abusive) I am a stronger, more capable person for it.
Undergrad was wonderful for me. I knew I wanted to learn as much as I could though, so I made the most of my time taking classes rather than socializing or floundering. I met a lot of amazing people too.
I would encourage my children to learn as much as they can/aim high, but set goals and not wander aimlessly too much (because I'm not sure I'll be able to afford it)
 
#116 ·
#117 ·
thank you so much capn. that was indeed a good read. and it shows realistically what student philosophy is.

esp. those who are into medicine, engineering or science/math related subjects or even courses like EMT. they ALL protest 'why do we have to take GE classes'. its a waste of their time. they are so focused on their subjects (and rightly so having taken chemistry myself
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) that most of them have closed minds going into GE requirements. they learn very little from it - only concerned about getting an A in the class.

however the whole article was from a have to go to college perspective. pretty much saying you have to have the training.

i would love to see an article from truly the other side. without college degrees.
 
#118 ·
I've been working overnights at Walmart to pay for my tuition at the National Midwifery Institute, a CPM program. There are lots of people working there who have college degrees, complete with student loans, but are making $8 an hour.
 
#119 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

however the whole article was from a have to go to college perspective. pretty much saying you have to have the training.

i would love to see an article from truly the other side. without college degrees.
So would I! I would love to see the face of the writer of the article, a professor of literature and the winner of a Pulitzer Prize, who has been publishing in the New Yorker for the last decade, when the New Yorker finds a person who can write as well as he can who doesn't have a BA. But the thing is, he was basically arguing that a lot of people who graduate from college don't learn the things he thinks they should be learning. He is deploring the use of college as a vocational school. So he and the hypothetical anti-college writer might have a meeting of the minds on some issues.

(He also needs to update his author bio at the New Yorker. I cannot believe a man with that many publications and a freakin' Pulitzer got turned down for tenure. Harvard is such a weird place. I guess that's part of his argument, too.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by phathui5 View Post

I've been working overnights at Walmart to pay for my tuition at the National Midwifery Institute, a CPM program. There are lots of people working there who have college degrees, complete with student loans, but are making $8 an hour.
Is that a problem with college, or a problem with this economy? The unemployment rate is 8.7%. To me, seeing college graduates working nights at Wal-mart proves that people in the US work hard to make ends meet, not that college is a waste of time.
 
#120 ·
The thing that irritates me about college is that a college degree is becoming meaningless. Graduate school is what college used to be. Lots of other things bother me about college, but I don't want to write an essay. I was actually talking to my brother, and he said that some companies are starting to recruit kids right out of high school so they can train them, and get them working right away without wasting the time/resources/etc. for college.

Just one more thing: the price for college is going up, and the quality is going down. People should go to college for a reason. When everyone goes just because it's the thing to do, then you have a lot of people there who could care less about scolarship and thinking and learning, and who care more about partying, drinking, etc. Not that parties are all bad, but it's pretty sad when the stereotype of the college years is partying.

For full disclosure, I graduated with a four year degree in journalism and creative writing.
 
#121 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain optimism View Post

But the thing is, he was basically arguing that a lot of people who graduate from college don't learn the things he thinks they should be learning. He is deploring the use of college as a vocational school. So he and the hypothetical anti-college writer might have a meeting of the minds on some issues.

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oh yup. yup. i agree with him wholeheartedly. i dont blame the students. there is more money and scholarships for the sciences. my gripe is a pediatrician or teacher or anyone involved with children dont have to take any ECE classes unless their degree is in that.

Is that a problem with college, or a problem with this economy? The unemployment rate is 8.7%. To me, seeing college graduates working nights at Wal-mart proves that people in the US work hard to make ends meet, not that college is a waste of time.
i am a little lost here. by waste of time do you mean you at least gain personal growth or some sort of growth which might not necessarily mean a job. that you gain some knowledge?
the author also brings this up when he talks about the rise in people going to college.

i agree with his take on specialisation which i see all around me. with community colleges now giving high schoolers first priority with class registration i see a larger number of just graduated or last year in high school kids. and a huge number of them really dont care about the subjects being taught - IF they have already decided on a major. they are closed off to any other possibility.

i recall my english class. i loved the teacher and the essays she chose. i learnt soooooo much. for instance i was familiar with illiteracy in 3rd world countries where because of the sheer numbers an illiterate person is not so isolated. but here. they face sooo much isolation. or dumpster diving. perhaps a couple of the students found something interesting. but the others just didnt care. they wanted to just write and be done with it.

only a few of the students were interested in social issues.

which makes me wonder. should everyone go to college at 18? perhaps they might be open to 'growing in learning' after they've got the youth out of their system. makes me wonder should even school begin at 5 or should we wait till 7 or even 8.

there is something really wrong here. about life in general. i cant exactly put my finger on it. i call it the living dead. most of the people are not really living. they are surviving. not saying all. but the majority. they are not leading lives that are inspiring or 'happy' (for lack of a better word).

in the ancient world university was meant to help you find what you are meant to do in the world. kinda like discover yourself and then go do what makes you 'happy'. not tell you what to do but help you discover.
 
#122 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

i am a little lost here. by waste of time do you mean you at least gain personal growth or some sort of growth which might not necessarily mean a job. that you gain some knowledge?
the author also brings this up when he talks about the rise in people going to college.
Even from the point of view of professional development, it's worthwhile to attend college, even if you can't get a job in your field immediately after you graduate. I don't foresee a massive reversal of the current trend to pay people according to how much education they have. I think some people are able to find ways to get professional credentials without doing a bachelor's degree or attending college, but college is a socially accepted career path.

Of course, there are other, less tangible reasons to go to college, like a respect for education or a desire to learn for its own sake, an opportunity to be exposed to new ideas and cultures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

in the ancient world university was meant to help you find what you are meant to do in the world. kinda like discover yourself and then go do what makes you 'happy'. not tell you what to do but help you discover.
The first universities were medieval, originally attached to urban cathedrals. In the ancient world, there were precursors to universities that we now usually call academies. I don't think either ancient academies or medieval universities were meant to help students discover themselves, except perhaps through the monastic life that often accompanied the life of scholarship in medieval and some ancient societies. The purpose of academies and universities was learning. I'm not sure why we have to defend that as a purpose for contemporary colleges and universities.
 
#123 ·
I hope to read this thread when I get a chance, but I just wanted to share this first.

I went to college and got my bachelor's degree because my parents had set aside the money for this, and, after trying full time work for a bit, I decided exploring ideas would be a heck of a lot more fun than heading straight into responsible adulthood. Yet I knew, all along, that my real plan was to get married and stay home with my kids, not to have a career.

I got a degree in social work. After college, I worked for one and a half years in a halfway house with Cuban refugees coming out of jail. Then I decided that I didn't like the person I was turning into...so I went and got a job as a teacher in a day care center. I worked in the child care field until about a month after I married at age thirty-five. I got pregnant right away and I did end up being a full time stay-at-home mom for ten years.

Then it became clear that I was going to need to start bringing in an income. Through a single homeschooling friend, I learned about a real work-from-home job giving telephone English lessons to people in Europe and Asia. I applied and got the job. I started a little over a year ago, when my younger dd had just turned five and my older dd was about to turn ten.

At that time, dh's and my plan was for me to work part time to supplement his full time income, but this past February he had his second TIA, and, when he tried to go back to work shortly after his return from the hospital, he got a severe headache. He and I talked it over and agreed that it would be best for him to quit. I expanded my availabilities and am now giving around 35 hours of lessons a week, and it pays well enough that it adds up to more than I would likely earn at a full time "regular" job.

This job does not require an ESL degree or any kind of teaching degree -- but it does require some sort of bachelor's degree. So I'm so glad I took that four-year-break between childhood and adulthood all those years ago. I want to do everything I can to help my daughters do this, too, if they want to.

I never became a social worker, but my social work degree has nevertheless opened a door for me and broadened my options.
 
#124 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain optimism View Post

I'm not sure why we have to defend that as a purpose for contemporary colleges and universities.
Because like the author said the purpose should be 'learning' and its all becoming vocational - even liberal arts too.

vocational not because its something you want to do - but a way of earning money - like the race in nursing majors.

i hope when and if my dd goes to college i hope she goes for the 'learning' and discovering aspect of it and out of that will come her professional training that she feels called for, not for a reason to make money. if she is not sure what she wants to do, i hope college (whenever that happens) gives her the choices and she makes the choice of what she wants to go into.

so in a sense medieval universities were places of learning - yup they were, but i feel todays is not about learning, but more about training. i think that's my biggest pet peeve about university. many are not choosing a degree because of the love of learning but because it will bring them better jobs. of course many because they feel they have no other options. and if they get the right profs and are inspired they stick on. or else they drop out.
 
#125 ·
We also have to address the original question in the OP, which was about whether to encourage her bright high schooler to pursue a degree in music. What if she couldn't get a job as a musician, would the college tuition be wasted?

I think there are both professional reasons and personal reasons why it's worthwhile for people to go to college and study. I think it still has validity as a professional path and that it has further use as a means to learning, so why not? I agree with you, meemee, that the current climate discourages serious learning. I like Mammal Mama's example, above, of how a degree in social work enabled her to get jobs in related fields, both before and after she chose to stay at home raising children.

I do regret pursuing a PhD, often, but I can't imagine who I would be now if I hadn't gone to college.
 
#126 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post

The people that tend to think that college is worthless are those who didn't go. It's a defense mechanism, I guess.
You could easily turn that around and say that those saying it's worth it are justifying the years they spent in school and the cost of paying for it. After all, you wouldn't want to think you wasted all that cash and time right?

Snotty attitudes can go both ways.
 
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