My experience with attachment parenting. Not a debate on how I word things. UGH! - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-05-2011, 01:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ps: calicara and mammal_mama, I love your posts. Especially the fact they ignored your 9mo WALKING but had to say something about the other baby being content by your side? I get that a lot too, DD is shy and doesn't vocalize that much. SIL sees her crying and tells me she's so glad to see DD vocalizing. She was crying hysterically for me in her carseat at the time, and this was not a good thing or good vocalization in any way, shape, or form. I got her out of the seat asap but had to listen to SIL laugh about it. Yeah, it's soooo darned funny how I won't let her cry. Oui vey.

I also loved the "sleeping on the soft back of a flying unicorn". Will be using that one next time someone asks why I have a crib attached to my bed. wink1.gif

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Old 06-05-2011, 01:44 PM
 
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tillymonster, I really identify with what you said about not wanting to wish, later, that you'd listened to your gut. Pretty early on, I realized that making mistakes as a mom was inevitable -- but I wanted them to at least be my mistakes. If we don't listen to ourselves, we run the risk of making a whole lot more mistakes 'cause we'll still make some of our own, plus we'll be making a whole lot of other people's mistakes, too.


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Old 06-05-2011, 03:42 PM
 
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yeah I feel like even in the "big city" there is a limit to how much some parents are willing to "sacrifice" their comfort for their children, I have yet to really come to grasp with this limit, I am often uncomfortable for my young son, because I know it is best for him, fexmp. CLW, nigh time nursing, not CIO and so on. And then random strangers will tell me I'm irresponsible for having my kid walk w/o shoes in the street or park, or someone called me "a careless parent" for letting him gnaw on a stick. i mean ppl are nuts! , truly, that my take on it, doesn't mean I'm going to be nuts too. March on, I say, to good parenting!

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Old 06-05-2011, 10:34 PM
 
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I have not read all the replies, but I will add my $.02 in....

All of the 'early' parenting AP vs. mainstream judgements and 'stuff' really does lessen once your children are older. It is rare that someone will ask you if your 7 year old was breastfed. I think as new parents we tend to see differences when you are practicing a more 'ap' style parenting than trying to find similarities. I breastfed, was adamant against not CIO and still have all 4 (yes 4) of my children sleeping next to me at night. Truthfully though, I no longer try to talk a Maintream CIO parent out of her parenting choice. Why? It is her child, her decision and most likely, she is educated enough to know my position on the subject, has read the research and the Dr Sears articles and chosen that is her style and choice to do otherwise. Who am I to argue with her decision?

 

I know some mothers seek out AP playgroups to socialize exclusively in because they are uncomfy in settings where there decisions are challenged. I don't feel that way. I do not want to change someone from being catholic or baptist because I've decided to live another way, but I will still gladly welcome friendship. The only stipulation, of course, is I assume that I will receive the same amount of tolerance in return. I breastfeed my toddlers, I do not CIO (so i may look like a mess w/o make-up during a growth spurt or otherwise lack of sleep night)...and I do appreciate the lack of judgement on my discipline style. That being said, don't they deserve the same tolerance and respect? If they ask for advice, I will give my experience and advice...not the research. My son liked to be rocked to sleep, my son wasn't ready to wean...not what Dr Sears says.

 

Motherhood is difficult enough. I don't understand why, as women, we go on the offensive. Do your best...let them do theirs. I understand AP, my child, and what it means to me as a mom.

 

Trust me..when they turn 9,. you will only be judged if your chidl is **** in diapers.

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Old 06-06-2011, 07:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post

 I am very confident in how I parent and really feel that ive made all the right choices.
 
Great. But bear in mind you have a toddler. There is still lots of growing for both of you to do. There is not a soul on earth that one day wont say "I wish I had done that differently."
 
Kids have a way of humbling us. Esp when you least expect it. Its much less emotionally damaging to us if we understand that none of us make the right choice 100% of the time. We make the best choice, or even the best choice at the time. But I have been in this game 174 months longer then you have. And I I have never been able to say that I have made all the right choices all the time.
 
 
 
 
So moral of the story? Don't start a thread about AP and not expect crazy debate.
 
Um, how about maybe not posting a thread about feeling judged while concurrently using the phrase "How can I not feel superior. I have 17 more months of expereince then she does."
 
Its not only off putting, its hypocritical.
 
No, you dont have all the answers b/c there are millions of questions that have not even been asked of you yet.
 
I really am not an extremist, I just like to talk about my life and thinks I'm passionate about openly and try and do what I think is right. Ugh..
 
But you come off superior. You even used that exact phrasing.
 
I remember when my kids were young and healthy and I thought I knew it all. And then life slapped me upside the head and said there is no room for arrogance when raising a compassionate human being.
 
You'll never get thorugh life undamaged if you dont understand that.


 

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Old 06-06-2011, 10:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post

Ok so here I am again, the big bad OP. I stopped reading this thread because I felt I was misunderstood, especially with the word "superior" which has been thrown around in some ridiculous ways.
 
You were throwing that word around in ridiculous ways yourself.
 
I was looking to commiserate and I didn't get much, did I?
 
You posted that you felt judged, which we can all commiserate with, then you made statements we found judgemental, which is something this community rarely supports.
I am very confident in how I parent and really feel that ive made all the right choices.
 
All the right choices for you, your family, and your child--not for everyone.
 
I don't think back and go "wish I would have listened to my gut" because I did the first time around.
 
One day, you will look back, and there WILL be things you wish you had done differently. All parents do.
 
I was told how to parent my child by people who don't know much about my family, my child, me. They weren't saying "this is what I do", they were saying "what you do is WRONG".
 
Obviously we don't agree that they should do that--but they will keep doing it, and the best thing you can do is let it all roll off your back. All you can do is your best for your child.
 
Luckily I'm smart enough not to listen, but at the end of the day, it hurts my feelings, for starters.
 
I know that it does, but try not to take it personally. Everyone has an opinion about parenting!
 
To tell me I'm wrong to judge is hilarious, I don't judge,
 
The comment you repeated several times about being superior to others due to having an older child was judging. When you come to realize that, and change the language you use, you will feel less judged by others, too. You are not superior, for any reason, and stating otherwise will always rile feathers.
 
It makes me sad that I can't share scientific studies that show CIO as being damaging because I'm automatically attacking?
 
How would you feel if people shared with you scientific studies showing your parenting methods were damaging? Why do you feel it's your place to educate them? Do you assume they have not done the research themselves or that their instincts with their own children are wrong? Do you not do things that studies show are potentially damaging? Some (albeit flawed) studies lead people to support circumcision or to be against cosleeping, which is against the stance of most MDCers. We don't let those studies influence our parenting. Is it not hypocritical to expect others to change their parenting techniques based on studies we provide?
 
They ask why I do what I do, so I tell them and I'm the bad guy? Huh?
 
You're only the bad guy if it's unsolicited or judgemental. We all have explained what we do and why, only to have others assume we're trying to lecture them. And likewise, it is easy for us to feel judged when others tell us what they do and why.
 
But from what I read about Ferberized babies who grow up to have major issues makes me want to tell everyone I know!
 
So do it, in the proper venues--when giving solicited advice, when debating the issue online, when deciding what products to buy, give to others, or recommend.

So moral of the story? Don't start a thread about AP and not expect crazy debate.
 
I think it's more like: don't post about feeling judged, then immediately follow it with a comment about your own superiority which is quite judgemental. Maybe you didn't intend to be judgemental, but it came out that way. This is a prime example of how the language you use can be insulting, even when you're only meaning to be helpful. If you can tweak your language to better reflect your intent, you may get better results.
 

 


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Old 06-06-2011, 01:06 PM
 
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Yep. This.

 

 

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post

So moral of the story? Don't start a thread about AP and not expect crazy debate..


 

The responses that you have are having such a hard time hearing are all from APing moms, and some of us have far more experience than you.

 

You could choose to actually hear what we are saying, and to grow as a person. To do that, you'd have to admit that you aren't perfect yet.

 

It really shouldn't be that hard to admit you aren't perfect, none of us are perfect. No one is perfect. We ALL have things to learn.


but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

 

The responses that you have are having such a hard time hearing are all from APing moms, and some of us have far more experience than you.

 

You could choose to actually hear what we are saying, and to grow as a person. To do that, you'd have to admit that you aren't prefect yet.

 

It really shouldn't be that hard to admit you aren't prefect, none of us are prefect. No one is prefect. We ALL have things to learn.

Hear, hear!!!

(Automatic spellchecker really got you on the spelling of perfect in that one or something, eh Linda? lol.gif )


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Old 06-06-2011, 03:23 PM
 
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Linda, you strengthen my resolve to keep the mommy nap a priority. Bless you.

 

ETA the thing I was referring to: "It is so much easier to react with love and compassion to others when one's own needs are being consistently met rather than put on hold indefinitely."


Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart - Confucius
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:28 PM
 
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I am not prefect!

 

And Linda i love you, and your posts. xxx

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post



Hear, hear!!!

(Automatic spellchecker really got you on the spelling of perfect in that one or something, eh Linda? lol.gif )



hide.gif  Spelling isn't my strong point.


but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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Old 06-06-2011, 03:41 PM
 
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hide.gif  Spelling isn't my strong point.


grouphug.gif But you have so many others, you have to leave some of the strong points for the rest of us no? love.gif

 

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Old 06-06-2011, 04:54 PM
 
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So, FF would have been easier for you. However, the statement you were responding to was: "FF is not necessarily easier either". And you know what? It's not. That you had a difficult time BFing doesn't mean no FF parents have a difficult time; it doesn't mean FF is easier for everyone or is always easier. And I HAVE had to take antibiotics for mastitis, more than once. FF parents can run into issues where their babies don't like the nipples or are allergic to FF, or even where they simply cannot afford the formula. And maybe they chose to BF, but couldn't, and now they have to buy formula they can't afford or that their kid vomits up. As for the reasons people do CIO, maybe the alternatives were just as hard for them, maybe it's their last resort, maybe they're sleep deprived with dark circles and at the end of their rope, maybe their mom or pediatrician recommended it, maybe they think sleep training is necessary. But by no means is it easy; I don't know any parents who CIO and thought it was easy. 



This is the third time I am trying this--I know we all agree the new MDC format stinks ;).  Anyhow, I didn't say CIO was easy.  I said I was sure it was hard in the moment and also upsetting.  So you don't need to twist my words.  Also, I acknowledged there would be a time and place in which I would FF instead of BF (yes, dark circles, sleep deprived, and at the end of my rope).  Frankly, that is how I feel about all things AP and thought I made that clear.  There are times when CIO, FF, etc, could be argued to be more AP if it meets baby's needs by meeting mom's mental health needs.  I am in no way militant about AP, so you can quit being so snippy with me like I am. 

 

Also, I am surprised by the huge backlash by many about AP not producing certain outcomes.  Research backs the theory that kids with a secure attachment to a caregiver do better than those with an insecure attachment, and that isn't Dr. Sears 101--its in your Psych 101 textbook.   There are obviously exceptions to every rule.  Humans are resilient and some more so than others.  I know that because my neighbor lets her kid CIO doesn't mean she's going to turn into a sociopath, and that because I don't doesn't mean my kid is going to be a saint.  The fact that some of us feel that AP is the best thing for kids doesn't mean we think we're superior to anyone else.  For me, it means that I believe the research on AP and I believe that kids deserve to have their needs met, and that there are in fact known and proven benefits to kids having their needs met, and known risks for those who haven't had their needs met.  I know there has to be balance and I think most people posting on here know that too.   I don't live in a bubble where everyone I meet has the resources to give their kids everything they'd like to in a perfect world, and myself am not able to do that.  I can't be 100% AP all the time and nobody I know can.  If people don't believe in the benefits of AP and strive to meet their kids' needs as best as they can, I don't understand why they even come to MDC. 

 

And as a side note, I think it is ironic that so many people are calling OP on the carpet for feeling superior to her friend when all of the posts calling her out smack of superiority themselves right down to using the same argument she used that they have more experience parenting and therefore are somehow experts on the topic at hand. 

 

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Old 06-06-2011, 05:01 PM
 
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I am so sorry for the way the "crib=cage" comment came across, and perhaps should have included the context and offer the fact that I have a sarcastic sense of humor. I was using hyperbole when my brother-in-law (who is not a father, not that it matters) kept grilling us on why our baby slept with us. "Aren't you afraid you're going to roll over on her?" "Aren't you afraid she's going to have 'issues' since she 'needs' a parent to 'fall asleep'"? "Why do you do that?" A sleep-deprived and annoyed-that-I-even-have-to-justify-myself me: "Oh, I don't know, I guess she doesn't like to be caged. Would you like to sleep in a cage?" Truth be told: I am trying to get her to spend the first part of the night and naps in the crib, but she's not feeling it right now. I know enough in the past nine months (which I recognize isn't a lifetime, but seems like a long time, relatively speaking) that each child is different and each family has its own sets of needs and the last thing I want to do is judge others. Perhaps I just need to work on being more tactful when people drive me to my limit. AP jives with our own style and works for us. Something else that doesn't work for us works beautifully for someone else. And that's totally 100 % fine. 

 

My initial comment was just preparing myself for how to react to being judged for my choices, which I am fairly certain is gonna happen when I visit my folks. I hate controversy (can't we all just get along?) but as a new parent I am realizing that you need to develop a thick skin if you are at all sensitive (I prefer the term "thoughtful") to begin with. Crib, bed, on the soft back of a flying unicorn: whichever way gives your kid the best sleep is the right choice for you, as far as I'm concerned. I never meant to come across as belittling someone else's choices; that goes against the very core of my being.

 



I don't think you have to be sorry for anything.  Were you to start a thread titled "My family is judging co-sleeping", I can see someone advising you to make a comment like "how would you like to sleep in a cage?" to your family members and everyone would applaud such a clever question that would surely put family members on their heels.  This thread has just turned into judgment central.  I'm not offended and my kid spent plenty of time sleeping in his cage...

 

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Old 06-07-2011, 07:06 AM
 
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APToddlerMama, please don't accuse me of being snippy, especially after the tone of the posts of yours which led up to the post of mine which you quoted. No one here except the OP has expressed any feelings of superiority. The OP dismissed the posts as a crazy debate that inevitably results on an AP thread, so someone reminded her that we're all AP parents, too, many of us who have been doing it for years and do have something to teach. It's not that we're experts; we're trying to demonstrate to her that the controversy on this thread is not over AP in general, but over her comments expressing superiority. No one has judged anyone; we've pointed out that saying "How can I not feel superior" is judgmental and isn't going to help someone make friends.


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Old 06-07-2011, 07:08 AM
 
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AP can't always be done; it's great if it can. Research shows AP produces good results; but reality shows that it doesn't always.

 

In a nutshell!


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Old 06-07-2011, 07:19 AM
 
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AP compared to truly unattached parenting, which is beyond just not AP but neglect, will show differences in how the child grows, I agree with that. AP compared to abuse will show differences in how the child grows. But AP compared to loving parents who CIO for a few nights and bottle fed by choice? I don't honestly know which of my dd's friends were parented in an AP way and which weren't. You can't even tell when they're 9 years old. I can see a difference in one child who has been yelled at and spanked frequently. That difference seems to show up. But I wouldn't count on AP giving you better behaved, happier kids than the families in homes where parents are generally attentive and loving but don't do the things we associate with AP.
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:18 AM
 
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You know, sometimes feelings of superiority arise when we need those feelings in order to remain committed to our ideals in the face of persecution and derision.

 

Bumping a newly dead thread, but...I'm awake. LOL


Yes, yes.  I'm fabulous. loveeyes.gif  Moving on...

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Old 06-13-2011, 04:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post

You know, sometimes feelings of superiority arise when we need those feelings in order to remain committed to our ideals in the face of persecution and derision.

 

Bumping a newly dead thread, but...I'm awake. LOL



That may be how it started for me, because when my oldest was first born, I kinda felt like I had to fight for the right to be an attached mama -- not with dh, definitely, but it probably didn't help that we were living with my parents (we moved out when dd1 was five months old) and whenever dd was fussy Mom kept thinking she was such a big baby (10 lbs, 12 1/2 ounces) that she really needed some formula on top of that breast milk. Then there were the well-meaning friends and relatives who didn't think it was okay to hold dd all the time, even when she slept.

 

At first it seemed so much like I was having to prove myself to all these people (and to myself, as well), that as we saw dd growing and thriving on just my milk -- and, yes, when she was about one she did get to the place where she was really restless trying to take her nap in my lap and she gave strong indications that she really wanted to be laid in the bed, so there was the proof that you can hold a baby when she sleeps (if you so choose) and she eventually will be able to sleep on her own -- well, it was like I wanted the satisfaction of seeing them eat their words but I don't think any of them really did.

 

(Oh, and I also took a lot of flack for not pushing the toilet training -- but, I can assure you, they are now six and eleven and they are not still in diapers! So all those warnings about how they'd be in diapers forever were totally unwarranted. They also didn't nurse forever, in spite of being allowed to nurse for as long as they wanted, so all the ignorant comments that people make to mothers, and I think there's even a warnng about this in one of the "What to Expect" books, are just, well, very ignorant comments made by people who really have no idea what they're talking about.)

 

But of course the real satisfaction is not in having others say, "Oh, okay, I was wrong and you were right." The real satisfaction is in my relationship with my children. And we really do all make mistakes. I'm just very happy to be able to say that all or nearly all my mistakes are squarely my own and I think I've largely avoided adding the mistakes of others on top of my own.

 


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
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