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#1 of 47 Old 05-14-2011, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My dd is12 months and the worst sleeper you could imagine. Her naps consist of 2 naps of 15 minutes each. The thing is it takes on average 45 minutes to get her to take a 15 minute nap~ She wants my breast in her mouth at all times when she sleeps. I cant do that though because I have a 5 year old who needs me too. So tonight after 1 hour and 15 minutes of nursing and rocking I got her to sleep. I put her in the co sleeper and of course she wakes up screaming her head off. I left her in there about a minute or so, maybe 1.5 minutes to check on my son who had just been sitting in his room the whole time waiting for me to get him a snack. I did the same thing yesterday too, nursing over an hour only to have her wake up then I left her a minute to go help my son. I never wanted to be a cry it out mom and I nurse her ALL night and never let her cry at night, but I feel just awful for my son because he sits and waits so long for me to put her to bed. Does anyone have any words for me? I feel like a bad mom tonight. 

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#2 of 47 Old 05-14-2011, 09:43 PM
 
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CIO to me is deliberately leaving your child to cry themselves to sleep in order to teach them independence, to "not let them manipulate you", or to get on a schedule that is more convienent. You do not have these intentions, and it is just the reality of the latter children that their needs are not always met immediately 100% of the time. It is perfectly fine to tend to your other child. You are doing a great job Mama, be gentle with yourself hug2.gif

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#3 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 08:26 AM
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Yeah that! Sometimes babies have to cry while mom goes to the bathroom, or a sibling has needs attended to. With ds, we have to let him fuss a bit more in the car bc dd cannot always just wait while i stop and nurse or distract or time trips perfectly like i could for her, but we dont let it get out of hand either You can babywear and find some creative solutions, but sometimes it takes a minute. You are obviously a great mama taking care of two kids. Don't worry about a minute like that.
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#4 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 10:25 AM
 
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If you are having such a hard time getting her to sleep via nursing, rocking, etc. you might want to take a look at this (very anti-CIO) take on kids like yours:

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2006/06/babies_and_cio.html

It made a huge amount of sense to me.
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#5 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The thing is she will lay in my arm and nurse and nurse for an hour, but with my son here with me too I cant spend an  hour at morning nap, an hour at afternoon nap and an hour for night time. Thats 3 hours in the day just getting her to sleep. I feel like half my life is spent doing this and it really isnt fair to my son because he needs me too. Is a minute of crying considered to be CIO?  Honestly am I being mean by doing that?

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#6 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 02:55 PM
 
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I don't think it's CIO but I think I'd try to find a more workable solution if this is happening regularly. Like maybe have your DS come in & read with you while you're nursing her down, or wear her for naps so she can sleep while you play with DS, or something like that... I can sympathize because my 2yo will not sleep unless I'm right beside him, takes forever to go down, and sleeps in short spurts, -- I'd be really frustrated if I had older kids I needed to tend to!! Heck, I'm frustrated now, without any other kids, because I just don't want to be nursing him non-stop to get him to sleep a few minutes! Maybe you could try laying her in a wagon or reclined stroller to nap? Hopefully she'll stay asleep once you stop moving, and you can then play with the 5yo? Or maybe work on getting her to nap just once a day, so you aren't struggling with this as often?

No, I don't think you're being mean though. I don't think I'd do it, I can't stand to leave a baby to cry even briefly, but it sounds like you're just doing your best to meet everyone's needs. I just think it might be calmer & more enjoyable for all 3 of you if you could find another way to manage things. hug.gif

Co-sleeping is really wonderful when your child actually SLEEPS!! familybed1.gif
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#7 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Crunchy mama I dont think you quite understand my dd. There is no wearing her for naps or laying her in strollers. She needs complete darkness in our bedroom and my son cant sit in the total dark of our bedroom for an hour! He cant read or anything when it is dark. Plus he would have to be totally silent because if she knew he was right there, she would never even think about sleeping. Unfortunately me in the bedroom with her is the only way to get her to sleep, and my son cant be there he would never be totally quiet for an hour. Having 1 kid is SO much different then 2....

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#8 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And I am not trying to be rude but a mom of only one would not understand...

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#9 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 03:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingmylife View Post

And I am not trying to be rude but a mom of only one would not understand...



Yup...That's pretty rude towards someone who gave you perfectly good advice.  I guess I would wonder if it is worth it to do the dark room thing to get 15 minutes of sleep?  What would happen if you nursed her in a wrap?  Are you sure she is tired when you are trying to nap her or you trying to adhere to a 'schedule'?  What happens when you don't do the nap routine at all?

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#10 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 04:11 PM
 
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Is there something special that you could set your 5yo up with while you are putting your LO down for her nap?  Maybe during that time he gets to watch a show and have a snack?  OR you could set up a little craft or playdough for him?  My almost 5yo can handle (and likes) a little time to herself.  We have appropriate snacks in a place where she can get at them and she gets to watch a show while I nurse her sister down. 

 

At 12mos she might be ready to transition to one nap during the day.  I might try doing some extra activity in the morning, like a park trip or long walk or visit the library, have an early lunch at 11 and then try the nap. The extra activity might wear her out enough to put her right out!

 

Also, if she doesn't sleep without the nipple in her mouth, have you tried a pacifier?  Wouldn't be my first choice, but it might get you a little more nap time.

 

You may have tried a ton of things already, so excuse me if these sound simplistic, but... Does she sleep on her back? Maybe you could try putting her down on her stomach. Are her clothes/pjs bothering her?  Does she need a burp?  (Sometimes my DD2 will fall asleep, but 20mins to an hour later will wake up with gas. Once we figured it out we would just help her and she'd go back to sleep.)  Have you tried music or white noise in her sleeping room?


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#11 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 04:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovingmylife View Post

Crunchy mama I dont think you quite understand my dd. There is no wearing her for naps or laying her in strollers. She needs complete darkness in our bedroom and my son cant sit in the total dark of our bedroom for an hour! He cant read or anything when it is dark. Plus he would have to be totally silent because if she knew he was right there, she would never even think about sleeping. Unfortunately me in the bedroom with her is the only way to get her to sleep, and my son cant be there he would never be totally quiet for an hour. Having 1 kid is SO much different then 2....


And I am not trying to be rude but a mom of only one would not understand...


I don't even know how to respond to that. I was just trying to help -- please feel free to disregard my ideas. I won't bother offering anymore. greensad.gif

Co-sleeping is really wonderful when your child actually SLEEPS!! familybed1.gif
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#12 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 04:20 PM
 
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I don't see any rudeness here, just two people who have totally different situations. The poster who said that they couldn't let their child cry even briefly only has one child. When you have more than one there are times when there just isn't any other choice. The OP has more than one child and therefore parenting looks a little different.

 

 

Also want to echo woodchicks advice on maybe trying one nap a day. That could really make a great difference!

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#13 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 04:33 PM
 
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I didn't say I never let a baby cry even briefly, I said I can't stand it, so I would try to find a way around it if it was a regular occurrence. Obviously everything's different when you have 2+ kiddos. It still felt like a punch in the gut (maybe it's because we've been TTC #2 for over 2 years) because I took the time to type out some ideas and no one has to listen to them but I do feel hurt over the response I received. Maybe I am too sensitive for MDC lately. Anyway, continue on, I will just keep my clueless mouth shut.

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#14 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 04:37 PM
 
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I agree this is not CIO.  It's just a reality that sometimes you need to do other things with your life besides concentrate on your LO 100%.  Your daughter has an older brother, that is reality, and there are billions of fully functional people out there today who also had older siblings that their mothers needed to attend to.  FTR I also only have one child and I am pretty sure I have not damaged her for eternity by letting her cry for 30 seconds while I pee.

 

As long as we are brainstorming suggestions though I do have a couple, feel free to reject if you have tried of course...

 

1) I know she is already 12 mo but is there any chance of getting her to take a pacifier, or of sneakily replacing your breast with a paci after she is already in snoozeland?

 

2) The thing that was the biggest godsend for our sleep issues was this book called 'The 90 Minute Baby Sleep Solution.'  Basically it says that babies have wake cycles that last 90 minutes (or multiples thereof).  So the best time to try to put the baby to sleep is exactly 1.5 hours (or 3 hours or 4.5 hours) after they have woken up.  After I started paying attention to this things got SO much better for us.  If I put her down at the right time she was asleep in 5 min, it was amazing.  If I tried at the wrong time it could take an hour.

 

3) I definitely third the idea for one nap per day, maybe she just needs to be more tired?


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#15 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 08:25 PM
 
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Forgive me for this suggestion, but along the lines of Moxie's blog that PP mentioned--what would happen if you nursed the baby, then laid her in her crib and gave her a goodnight kiss, turn out the light, then LEAVE THE ROOM? 

 

I recall my youngest at that age:  she would take forever to get to sleep, then wake at the slightest provocation (noise, a gust of wind, whatever).  We only have a 3-bedroom house.  DH and I moved DS into our room and let DD2 have the third bedroom to herself.  (The other bedroom belongs to my almost-10-year-old DD).  I'd spend hours rocking and nursing (later bottle-nursing after we had to switch to formula) getting her to sleep.  I'd lay her in her crib and maybe right away, but maybe 10-15-20 minutes later, she'd start angrily screaming.  So, we'd start the whole song and dance again.  Evenings were a big source of stress.  I'd practically be ignoring my older kids.  One night, I'd done the song and dance; got her into bed; then my (autistic, not potty trained) son needed my attention, rather urgently.  She wakes, cries.  I don't go to her.  Too busy dealing with my son.   Before I'm done with my son, she had stopped crying.  I check on her and she's snoozing away.  Wondering if I'm onto something, the next night, I do the bedtime routine and put her to bed, slightly awake.  She fusses for a few minutes and then is asleep.  I pay attention to the cries:  too long (over about 10 minutes) or it changes from the "but, mama, I don't wanna (go to sleep) zzzz..." cries to "get in here, now" cries, I'll get her, see if there is a solvable problem and solve it (such as a thrown blankie and paci), and try again later.  Now DS and DD2 share a room and the only bedtime battles are the fact that the sun does not go down until almost 9 pm, so they don't want to go to bed.  As for room-darkening blinds, well 1)  they'd probably pull them down and destroy them and 2) we don't have air conditioning but I won't let them be in there with the windows open anyhow (second floor, so, safety issue).

 

FTR:  my first two kids were tension increasers--you leave them to CIO, we are up all night dealing.  If DD2 had been my first/only--I'd be singing the praises of CIO.  She is a tension releaser.

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#16 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry crunchy mama, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings at all. I was just feeling depressed and upset ( to put it lightly) and then your post kind of made me feel bad, like you were so much better than me because I let her cry and you would never do that. So I just pointed out it is so different when you have another child who really needs attention as well. To the above poster, but times I left her to cry then minute or so she fell asleep. Tonight I was in her room for 1 hour and 25 minutes and the problem is getting her into the cosleeper. I can get her to fall asleep but I cant get her into the co sleeper without her waking. Well I had promised my son a special snack and to make "goo" once she was in bed. My son waited patiently an hour and 25 minutes and finally I had to leave and check on him and talk to him for a minute. It really isnt fair that his whole life is spent waiting for me. I am so frustrated after tonight I just started balling. I just couldnt get her in the co sleeper without waking her up and finally I just lost it. I have NO support. Dh works until 10 pm every night, no family in town. My MIL lived in town near us and helped so much with my son and she died unexpectedly last year 2 months before dd was born. So now I have no one to lean on. I have not gone out with dh or a friend even once since I had the baby 12 months ago, never been away from her for a minute. I am just lost really. 

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#17 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh and she used to take a paci until a month ago. She has always been an awful sleeper but the paci did help. Now she wont take one for anything and just wants to nurse forever. And the reason she was on two naps is they seriously are 15-20 minutes. She does between 30-40 minutes of naps TOTAL in the day and about 9 hours with tons of waking at night. Less then 10 hours in a 24 hour period... shes tired all the time. 

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#18 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 09:20 PM
 
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I'm so sorry, you sound so frustrated and done.  Is it possible that there is a bed she could sleep on rather than the cosleeper?  This is what I had to do with my DS because there was no way that I could put him down for the longest time without him waking up...so I got pretty good at side-lie nursing on the bed and then carefully rolling away once he was all the way asleep.  Luckily he got better at settling himself by about 15 months and now at almost two years he is a much better sleeper.

 

I know that more advice topped on an already frustrating situation just makes it more frustrating, but its a thought.

 

Your son sounds like a very patient sweetie.

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#19 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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She does sleep at night that way when I am with her, but I cant just leave her alone in that bed when I am out with my son. She would climb out even with rails. That would be ideal though if I could leave her in the bed because its the moving her that wakes her. I wish my dh was home at a normal time so he could entertain our son, then I would not feel so guilty. It was bad tonight and I am not proud of it. I said something I never thought I would say to my baby.. shut up. Yep I said it and I feel like crap about that. 

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#20 of 47 Old 05-15-2011, 10:45 PM
 
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Be gentle to yourself.  You are one thinly stretched person trying to meet the home needs of three others.

 

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#21 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 03:32 AM
 
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Sorry crunchy mama, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings at all. I was just feeling depressed and upset ( to put it lightly) and then your post kind of made me feel bad, like you were so much better than me because I let her cry and you would never do that.


I am not better than you nor do I think I am. Believe me. Honestly, I pretty much hate myself and have zero faith in my mothering abilities. I don't think I'm at all good at this parenting thing because my poor kid is always miserable. I must have worded my post wrong if you read it otherwise -- I'm sorry. I guess I took your post as a solicitation for advice, but it sounds like you just wanted to vent & be supported, so I misread it and apparently failed to offer what you were asking for. I already said, but will reiterate, that I don't think you're doing CIO and you're not being mean. Does your DH have any days off? Or do you have any friends that would watch the kids for a bit? Can you take a day to yourself -- or even an hour or two? It sounds like you desperately need a break.

Co-sleeping is really wonderful when your child actually SLEEPS!! familybed1.gif
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#22 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 05:18 AM
 
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NAK, wriggly baby, wandering hands!

OP, you sound like you are at the end of your rope.

Gently, though, it also sounds like you are painting yourself into a corner and choosing not to see options where there surely must be some. And I totally get that...it's how I work, too, when I get sleep-deprived and overwhelmed.

If letting your dd fuss a little (not cry, but a little fussing) is what it takes to get her to sleep and you are comfortable with that, then you should take that and go with it. But you seem uncomfortable, so....

What I would do in your situation (and as the mother of three who never slept well....I swear I need more sleep than they did, even at 6 months old): I would blow up the whole routine and start fresh. My littlest was down to one nap a day around 10 months and is now at 18 months starting to give up the only nap. Maybe he would sleep more if I nursed him in a dark room just the two of us, but that is not a luxury either one of us can afford. I have two others that need me to homeschool, drive to co-op, get out to a walk, moderate their little battles, etc. Baby simply MUST get what sleep he can on the go and active during the day. I wear him, which he doesn't like much, but it will get him to sleep sometimes. I try to find convenient parking at whatever destination we are going to if he falls asleep in the car so that I can leave him in the car seat and keep an eye on him. I nurse him on the sofa reading to my big boys when we are at home.

Sometimes this works and he'll crash out somewhere for an hour. Sometimes he will take a couple of snatched catnaps over the course of the day. Sometimes he just doesn't sleep at all during the day. And sometimes he seems fine with that, sometimes he's a mess. But whatever his mood, he's right there with me and his big brothers, and even if he's whiney and crying in the sling, he's right with me.

I know this isn't ideal for him and is sometimes stressful for me, but it is what works for all of us together. I make it up to him at night when DH is home to help with the older boys. Baby can nurse all he likes, snuggle in with me and stay by my side all night. (and he STILL doesn't sleep soundly or for long stretches, but he has the opportunity!). I have to believe that he's getting whatever sleep he needs because in general he is a happy, bubbly, healthy baby. I see your DH isn't home fir the bedtime routine. So, maybe bring dd in to do the bedtime stuff with your ds, send him off to dreamland and then go to bed with your dd. Or even if ds must wait for you, it's only once a day then.

I don't think that spending all that time to get your dd to nap during the day for so short a time seems worth it. Maybe try just getting on with your day with her in tow for a couple of days. Maybe it will work. Maybe it will be a complete and total failure. But then you will know and can try something different.

I don't think your only two options are sacrificing your sanity and your ds's day to your dd's naps or CIO (which, by the way, I do not think you did, but you seem troubled, which is a more valuable bellwether than my opinion, you know?).

Hope you manage to find something that works and that you are comfortable with. Good luck, Mama.

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#23 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 05:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingmylife View Post

She does sleep at night that way when I am with her, but I cant just leave her alone in that bed when I am out with my son. She would climb out even with rails. That would be ideal though if I could leave her in the bed because its the moving her that wakes her. I wish my dh was home at a normal time so he could entertain our son, then I would not feel so guilty. It was bad tonight and I am not proud of it. I said something I never thought I would say to my baby.. shut up. Yep I said it and I feel like crap about that. 

I had two climbers like that in a row.  We put the mattress right on the floor so that we could leave the baby on the bed without waking her.  Also, does she maybe just not need much sleep?  My first child never slept more than 10 hours, even as a newborn (I even added up the micro naps wondering).  I had to settle for no day naps and a relatively late bed time.  My last child was a good sleeper but a bit tricky to transition.  I nursed him and rocked him while reading to the older ones and doing quiet things at the table, and then put him to bed after their night routine.  The older kids didn't have a routine disruption this way and baby had more quiet to fall asleep.

 

Don't beat yourself up too much for what you said or the frustration.  Your doing the best you can.  We had some crazy upheaval similar to this when the third child was a baby (FIL, who was very active with grandkids, suffered a very debilitating brain aneurism; DH, like yours, had crazy shift work; DS1 was undergoing all kinds of assessments and had baffling behavior throwing us for a loop and I felt like my very bright DD was practically self parenting).  If I look back, there's a whole what not to do as a parent list that could be made on just that year.  It was a big blow to the parental ego, but you know what - everyone's OK.  The baby in the middle of all that is now the most cheerful 7 year old I could ever have imagined; the oldest still has the same issues that cropped up at the time, but he's learned to cope; and that middle child, my DD who I felt guilty about for not having enough time, is very close t me, pretty happy, and naturally independent, anyway.  The kids are more resilient than the parents, sometimes.  Just do your best and move on.  In the big picture, the your children simply have a very caring and very human mother, and part of them understands even when they are small.

 


 

 


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#24 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 05:49 AM
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She is about 12 months old? 

Why are you forcing her to try to nap twice a nap when it clearly isn't working?

I wouldn't even bother trying to put her down for a nap in the morning. I would just go about my day and if she gets grumpy is it really any different than struggling for an hour to get her to sleep for 15 minutes? I almost feel like her struggling that much for at least one of the naps is her way of telling you she doesn't need/want it! Maybe try completely dropping the morning nap and just deal with a cranky baby who might sleep better for an afternoon nap. That is what I personally would try. 

I know that when I am fighting DD to take her afternoon nap (she will be 2 soon) and it is taking more than a half an hour I just let it go. If she really doesn't want to sleep that badly I'm not going to FORCE her into it. It's a battle that isn't even worth fighting. 

It sounds very frustrating for you. I know that you think mamas with only one kiddo can't really relate but we do have other stuff we have to deal even if it isn't another kid who needs us! 

 

My final advice would be stop fighting on one of the naps and let it go, probably the morning one and while she may be more grumpy at first is it really any worse than struggling every single day to get her to sleep for such a short period of time?

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#25 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 09:17 AM
 
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I agree with Lauren.

 

I've never had a routine for my daughter's naps. She's always just napped when she has felt like it. If she needed a nap she would go to sleep where she was.

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#26 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 09:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lovingmylife View Post

Oh and she used to take a paci until a month ago. She has always been an awful sleeper but the paci did help. Now she wont take one for anything and just wants to nurse forever. And the reason she was on two naps is they seriously are 15-20 minutes. She does between 30-40 minutes of naps TOTAL in the day and about 9 hours with tons of waking at night. Less then 10 hours in a 24 hour period... shes tired all the time. 



Is she teething?  This sounds like my DS was when he was having a HORRIBLE time with teeth coming in.  Same age too.  I couldn't tell by looking at his gums, but whenever I would try giving him motrin before bed or a nap it worked like a charm.  I think he wanted to nurse constantly b/c it was comforting when he was in so much pain - and he would nurse and nurse and nurse (and refuse to paci - I think the material didn't feel good on his gums), and then wake up instantly.

 

Have you tried motrin or tylenol to see if that might be it?

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#27 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 09:47 AM
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Is she teething?  This sounds like my DS was when he was having a HORRIBLE time with teeth coming in.  Same age too.  I couldn't tell by looking at his gums, but whenever I would try giving him motrin before bed or a nap it worked like a charm.  I think he wanted to nurse constantly b/c it was comforting when he was in so much pain - and he would nurse and nurse and nurse (and refuse to paci - I think the material didn't feel good on his gums), and then wake up instantly.

 

Have you tried motrin or tylenol to see if that might be it?

I know a lot of mamas aren't fans of tylenol or motrin here but when DD is teething BAD I give her some before bedtime and it is the difference between her sleeping soundly for 6 hours or her waking up every 20 minutes trying to nurse and screaming in pain and frustration because nursing makes it hurt worse...i just had one of those nights last night as DD gets her last few teeth in and while I was laying awake all night I was wondering why I didn't just go get the motrin....Sigh too tired to get out of bed I suppose...

 

Teething is the WORST!
 

 

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#28 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 10:52 AM
 
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I agree with trying to phase out the morning nap and trying to get outside for a walk or play time in the morning so she will be sleepy for the afternoon nap.  Other than that, I would agree that you are being too hard on yourself.  I have 4 kids, and my baby is the worst sleeper of all, so yes, he has to fuss for a few minutes sometimes while I tend to the other kids or even jump in the shower quick.  I am not a believer in CIO, but a few minutes of fussing so that you can meet other needs is not CIO. 

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#29 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well my dd isnt like that at all, and will not even fall asleep in the car on long car trips. She is not a nap anywhere baby. 

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#30 of 47 Old 05-16-2011, 11:29 AM
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Well my dd isnt like that at all, and will not even fall asleep in the car on long car trips. She is not a nap anywhere baby. 



so don't make her nap! eventually she will pass out while you are holding her or whatever.. I promise you she will make it to 2 or maybe 3 without a nap then boom you look down and she's sleeping...forcing naps is just so futile imo...

 

 

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