So what does CPS look for? Can they inestigate over any concerned call from someone? I'm in Canada. - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 143 Old 05-20-2011, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not to worried about CPS coming around or anything,but I suppose it could happen to anyone. So what does CPS look for when they come to your door? Do they need some kind of warrant or paper work to come in when they arrive unannounced? How clean does you home need to be? How much food do you need to have in your home?
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#2 of 143 Old 05-20-2011, 08:53 AM
 
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I am in Ontario, I have called CAS (CPS for Americans) on someone, and my neighbour had dealings with them.

 

Here is what I know:

 

If you call, one of three things will happen (as told to me by CAS when I called on someone)

-they will discuss it and go no further

-they will call the family

-they will visit the family

 

If they visit, they might take pictures.  They are looking for:

food in the house

bed for kids 

proper clothing

drugs, dangerous things left out, etc

 

 

My sister, who lives in Montreal, has a friend who is a cop - the cop says the house has to be really filthy for them to consider removal.

 

I do not know whether or not you have to let them in.  My gut says "no".  They might not be able to close the file unless they come in and check things out, though.  I am not sure whether I would let them in or not.  You can always, if they come to the door, say you are on your way out and "would they like to make an appointment?".  I would have DP or a friend around for the appointment - I think they may be more careful if there is an audience.

 

Here is a pamphlet from Quebec - it may be useful

http://publications.msss.gouv.qc.ca/acrobat/f/documentation/2008/08-838-01A.pdf

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#3 of 143 Old 05-21-2011, 05:13 PM
 
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If CAS comes knocking, do not stop them from comming in. Seriosuly, these people have the right to remove your child. I know some people say "Its my house, they cant just come in w/o a warrent."

 

YEs they can. And if you refuse, you will be looked at more closely then someone who opens their doors even tho their dishes arent done and the kids beds arent made.

 

These people dont care about that. They have been called to ensure your kids are safe. Why not allow them to see that they are safe and you will cooperate any way you can to have the case closed.

 

CAS doesnt want to take kids. Foster homes are scarse, ill paid and often illequipted to deal with some of the thigns they have seen.

 

If your neighbour called b/c of a grudge, your b/c your breatfeeding your 2 year old......they are not gonna take your kids.

 

But if you block them...they automatically feel there is something you want to hide.

 

You have rights..but seriously you need (in general) to put your kids first. If nothign is wrong then there is nothing to hide.

 

Procedure is this: There are levels of concern.

 

Level one is a complaint but no worker sent out. If 3 of these types of complaints have been made, they will send someone out.

 

If there is a suggestion of abuse and you have a 2 year old or younger in the home, they have to send someone in 2 hours or less.

 

 

 

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#4 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 10:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beenmum View Post

If CAS comes knocking, do not stop them from comming in. Seriosuly, these people have the right to remove your child. I know some people say "Its my house, they cant just come in w/o a warrent."

 

YEs they can. And if you refuse, you will be looked at more closely then someone who opens their doors even tho their dishes arent done and the kids beds arent made.

 

These people dont care about that. They have been called to ensure your kids are safe. Why not allow them to see that they are safe and you will cooperate any way you can to have the case closed.

 

CAS doesnt want to take kids. Foster homes are scarse, ill paid and often illequipted to deal with some of the thigns they have seen.

 

If your neighbour called b/c of a grudge, your b/c your breatfeeding your 2 year old......they are not gonna take your kids.

 

But if you block them...they automatically feel there is something you want to hide.

 

You have rights..but seriously you need (in general) to put your kids first. If nothign is wrong then there is nothing to hide.

 

Procedure is this: There are levels of concern.

 

Level one is a complaint but no worker sent out. If 3 of these types of complaints have been made, they will send someone out.

 

If there is a suggestion of abuse and you have a 2 year old or younger in the home, they have to send someone in 2 hours or less.

 

 

 


I assume this is Canadian law, because that's not how it works in the US. They didn't come in my house, and they didn't take my kids. And there was an allegation of sexual abuse. And they came with the police. I told them, in front of the cop, to make an appointment. I don't let friends in my house unanounced when it's a mess, why wouold I let some random stranger who doesn't even have children come in and tell me whether I'm doing it right?

 

I videotaped every interaction and let them know I was doing it. I took down the cop's badge number, and the last name and supervisor's name of the two case workers. the experience still sucked, believe me, but I did NOT just fling open my door and say "come on in." That's foolhardy.
 

 


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#5 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 02:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy View Post




I assume this is Canadian law, because that's not how it works in the US. They didn't come in my house, and they didn't take my kids. And there was an allegation of sexual abuse. And they came with the police. I told them, in front of the cop, to make an appointment. I don't let friends in my house unanounced when it's a mess, why wouold I let some random stranger who doesn't even have children come in and tell me whether I'm doing it right?

 

I videotaped every interaction and let them know I was doing it. I took down the cop's badge number, and the last name and supervisor's name of the two case workers. the experience still sucked, believe me, but I did NOT just fling open my door and say "come on in." That's foolhardy.
 

 

Actually, what Beenmum said IS how it works... in many states.  I don't know if you are in a state that doesn't work that way, or if for some reason the CPS worker and cops that responded to you decided not to insist on seeing your kids, but in most states - depending on the allegations - CPS DOES have a right to see your kids, and if you refuse, - again, depending on the allegations - they can come back with a cop and insist or take your kids.  That is true in most states.  Because, as Beenmum said, CPS's primary and *legal*responsibility is to protect children from abuse and neglect.  CPS is usually not gonna force their way in for a dirty house complaint... but for serious abuse complaints, yes, they can and they should.

 

And another thing Beenmum says that is also absolutely true for most of the 50 states: even where you can tell CPS to go away and make an appt or come back when you, the parent, want them to, there is absolutely immediately a raised concern about why you don't want CPS to see/talk to your kids if you refuse.  Even though CPS can't and shouldn't take any actual action against a parent (like removing kids) until there is substantiated (confirmed) abuse or neglect, depending on what the allegations are there is a raised concern where a parent refuses to produce the kids or speak to CPS or let the kids be spoken to.  What that raised concern means CPS does next... is a local issue.  But for the most part, if anyone ever called CPS on me (and I work for CPS!) I'd immediately let them in and let them see/speak to my kid, because I have nothing to hide.  And I honestly see that most parents who do that - *especially* where the report is a malicious one by someone just wanting to cause trouble for the family - the sooner the CPS worker can see there are no concerns, the fast the issue is closed and you are not bothered. 

 

Of course, if you've got something to hide, that's a different issue.  And if you've got a real, profound distrust of CPS, that is also an issue, and some people have good reason to have that distrust.  But what I am saying about how the refusal to talk or produce the kids is seen is true almost across the board, so even with a profound distrust, you still need to understand some of the consequences of not speaking to CPS or coorperating - even where you know 100% for sure that someone meaning to cause you harm made the report.

 

And for the record, the number of malicious reports CPS receives (in US and in Canada) is seriously miniscule compared to the number of reports where there are real issues.  Tiny.  Please keep that in mind too - CPS has a lot more important things to do than go out and investigate bogus reports, so the faster we can figure out it's bogus, the better for those who really need CPS interventions.

 

 

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#6 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 02:35 PM
 
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Thank you LROM. I did work with CAS and did my foster parent training with them. I am well versed in how this works. I dont knw anyone who has said "No you can not see my kids whom you are sworn to protect b/c I should hav rights that keep my kids safety from being investiagted.

 

Shoudlnt happen. Ever.

 

And they CAN just come into your home. They do not need an invitation. IF you refuse, you will be put to the fdront of the caseload and you will have a judge signing to remove your kids before the end of the day.

 

seriously, telling the CAS that your home is too untidy to let them in, is foolhearty. You will be red flagged. They HAVE to investigate.

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#7 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 02:38 PM
 
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I am not sure the above is true - they may need a warrant to come into your house and if they do not have grounds they might not get one.

 

However, that does put CPS in an awkward spot - they cannot close the case until they tick off all their boxes - seeing your kids and your house is a box.

 

I am not sure what i would do if CPS landed on my door.  If the house was not a disaster area I would let them in.  If it was, we could meet on the porch, I would bring my kids outside so they could see them, and I would arrange a visit for in the future if they still wanted one.

 

In my mind my house is never dirty enough to warrant intervention - but clean is subjective, and no way am I taking my chances on someone trying to make a case, or a mess-phobe (unlikely, I know)

 

i suppose it could raise red flags that I refuse to let them in right away, but mess can raise red flags too.  Pick your flag.  At least with refusing to let them in everything they think is assumption - there is no proof.

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#8 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 02:43 PM
 
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They do NOT need a warrent to come into your home. They need a warrent to remove your kids. Which they can get by the end of the day if you refuse them access to your children. Lack of access means the kids safety can not be verified. And CAS will remove your kids if you have obstructed their jobs in anyway.

 

Its a fact.

 

You have had 2 people who work(ed) for them tell you this. Please take it to heart so you are not risking your kids removal b/c you thhink your house isnt tidy enough.

 

There has to be an immediate danger to the safety of your kids in your home (medications left through the house, drugs, garbadge from room to room, feces and rotten food and lack of proper beds, food and tioletries before they will take your kids for a messy house.

 

I have seen this first hand. Walked into homes that had rat poo, garbadge and small peices strewn all over. They gave the women 4 hours to clean it to "safety" standards. Not CLEAN, SAFE.

 

 

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Originally Posted by beenmum View Post


 

And they CAN just come into your home. They do not need an invitation. IF you refuse, you will be put to the fdront of the caseload and you will have a judge signing to remove your kids before the end of the day.


 

A judge is going to remove my kids because I refuse entry at this exact minute?  Seriously?  On what grounds?  What happened to presumed innocence? 

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#10 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 02:56 PM
 
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Thank you LROM.  I hope this doesn't turn into another MDC CPS hysteria thread.

 

OP, I'm a social worker and as long as I don't have animal or human poop piling up in my house, 25 bags of garbage in my living room, used needles on my countertop, 30 unfed cats, or a family of rats living here, I don't worry.  Seriously.  I never even would *think* to make sure I had food in my house for a surprise CPS visit.  I have enough food for our needs, and that is that.  CPS has way better things to do than investigate bogus allegations.  If your child doesn't look malnourished and hungry, they aren't going to care about your food situation.  If they *do*, it is typically to help link families to resources so that they can get the food they need.   Poverty isn't a reason to remove children from homes.  Don't be fearful of CPS.... they truly aren't out to get you and you are way more likely to get struck by lightening that have CPS come out and grab your child.

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Originally Posted by beenmum View Post

They do NOT need a warrent to come into your home. They need a warrent to remove your kids. Which they can get by the end of the day if you refuse them access to your children. Lack of access means the kids safety can not be verified. And CAS will remove your kids if you have obstructed their jobs in anyway.

 

Its a fact.

 

You have had 2 people who work(ed) for them tell you this. Please take it to heart so you are not risking your kids removal b/c you thhink your house isnt tidy enough.

 

There has to be an immediate danger to the safety of your kids in your home (medications left through the house, drugs, garbadge from room to room, feces and rotten food and lack of proper beds, food and tioletries before they will take your kids for a messy house.

 

I have seen this first hand. Walked into homes that had rat poo, garbadge and small peices strewn all over. They gave the women 4 hours to clean it to "safety" standards. Not CLEAN, SAFE.

 

 

I am going to bow out of this conversation because I just do not know and do not want to give out false information.

 

There are numerous stories and information all over the internet on whether or not you have to admit CPS to your house.  I think people should read all sides and figure out what they feel best doing.

 

On a personal level, I am not worried for one moment about CPS showing up on my doorstep - nor am I worried for one moment about my ability to have them close the case in quick order.

 

 

 


 

 

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#12 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 03:02 PM
 
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A judge is going to remove my kids because I refuse entry at this exact minute?  Seriously?  On what grounds?  What happened to presumed innocence? 


You're missing a key factor that both beenmum and I said - IT DEPENDS ON THE ALLEGATIONS.  It depends on the nature of the report that was received and what type of abuse/neglect someone said your kids were experiencing.

 

And if it's bad enough, and you refuse to allow CPS to see your kids and speak to you and your kids, YES, because someone has given specific enough and serious enough information to make the concern about the safety/wellbeing of your children the top priority.

 

No one has said you are presumed guilty because you refuse entry, so I don't have a clue what you're talking about with "presumed innocence" - insisting on seeing your kids does not presume guilt.  It insures that a serious allegation of bad stuff happening to your kids has been checked out, because that is our job and kids who are abused are in no position to protect themselves. 

 

Again, children cannot be REMOVED unless there is a confirmed case of child maltreatment, and trust me, almost all over North America it has to be VERY serious for the kids to actually be removed on the spot.  The far far FAR more common situation is that CPS finds serious concerns but does not remove in hopes that with supports the family can stay together.  Or we work with the parents to identify family/friends known to parent and child that the child could stay with while the safety threat is dealt with.

 

So just to make sure this is clearn, no, no judge is going to allow a child to be removed (nor is CPS going to remove a child) simply because you refused entry to your house.  What CPS/a judge CAN insist on is that your children are seen and you adn your kids (if old enough) are talked to about the allegations and that whatever CPS needs to do to further check out the allegations is done.  And yes, if the allegations are serious enough and you refuse to cooperate, CPS can take your kids because again, if the allegations are true, they are in no position to protect themselves.

 

Guilt or - more accurately - abuse or neglect - is never assumed.  It is investigated and either confirmed or there is an official record that no evidence of maltreatment was found.  If it's confirmed, and understand it usually takes some pretty obvious stuff for it to be confirmed, and it's the type of abuse that removal is required to insure safety, YES, yoru kids will be removed.  But never just solely because you wouldn't let CPS in when they showed up at your door.

 

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Quote:
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A judge is going to remove my kids because I refuse entry at this exact minute?  Seriously?  On what grounds?  What happened to presumed innocence? 

 

Child safety is considered more important that "presumed innocence," which is how it should be.  And it really isn't about guilt or innocence anyhow...it is about ensuring that a child is safe, and it is impossible to know without access. It isn't like the parent gets carted off to jail immediately.  There are a lot of individuals on these boards who seem to think CPS is public enemy number one.  99% of the time, CPS is investigating serious allegations.  Truthfully, we should be willing to accept that there are rare occassions when a family may have contact with CPS for bogus reasons, but this ensures that the other 99 children CPS has contact with are hopefully protected from abuse and neglect. 

 

If you have nothing to hide, your best bet is to let CPS "investigate."  That is the best way to make them go away.  A person refusing access to their home or child seems like someone who has something to hide. 

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I'm not in Canada, so I won't pretend to know anything about their version of CPS; however, I am positive that there are far more children who are killed or injured every year b/c they were left in their homes compared to the amount of children who are unjustly removed from their home. 

 

Just something to think about when you worry about CPS involvement, and for anyone who is convinced they are out to take your kids from you for no reason. 

 

I would hate, hate, hate it if I had child protection all up in my business investigating my family and putting us through hell.  More important, though, is that children who are abused and neglected are adequately protected, as they should be. 

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I'm in Ontario and I'm a former foster parent. Beenmum is correct except for (unless they've changed things) the needing a warrant to remove your kids. They don't need a warrant to come in and speak with your kids, and can speak with the kids at school if needed. The workers in my area at least do not make the removal decision. They always call the supervisor, give a report, and the supervisor makes the decision. The kids can be removed on the spot, and they have, iirc 48 hours to get before a judge to justify removal (could be 72, I can't remember offhand). Then the judge decides yay or nay to keeping the kids in care.

I have seen foster parents with messy houses. I have seen parents keep their kids while living in houses that I wouldn't keep a dog in. I have seen CAS pay $10,000 to get someone's house cleaned to a decent standard, so the kids can stay with their parents. I have seen ONE removal that in hindsight wasn't necessary, but at the time it was, and those kids were with me 15 hours before being returned home.
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#16 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 03:48 PM
 
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Actually, what Beenmum said IS how it works... in many states.  I don't know if you are in a state that doesn't work that way, or if for some reason the CPS worker and cops that responded to you decided not to insist on seeing your kids, but in most states - depending on the allegations - CPS DOES have a right to see your kids, and if you refuse, - again, depending on the allegations - they can come back with a cop and insist or take your kids.  That is true in most states.  Because, as Beenmum said, CPS's primary and *legal*responsibility is to protect children from abuse and neglect.  CPS is usually not gonna force their way in for a dirty house complaint... but for serious abuse complaints, yes, they can and they should.

 

And another thing Beenmum says that is also absolutely true for most of the 50 states: even where you can tell CPS to go away and make an appt or come back when you, the parent, want them to, there is absolutely immediately a raised concern about why you don't want CPS to see/talk to your kids if you refuse.  Even though CPS can't and shouldn't take any actual action against a parent (like removing kids) until there is substantiated (confirmed) abuse or neglect, depending on what the allegations are there is a raised concern where a parent refuses to produce the kids or speak to CPS or let the kids be spoken to.  What that raised concern means CPS does next... is a local issue.  But for the most part, if anyone ever called CPS on me (and I work for CPS!) I'd immediately let them in and let them see/speak to my kid, because I have nothing to hide.  And I honestly see that most parents who do that - *especially* where the report is a malicious one by someone just wanting to cause trouble for the family - the sooner the CPS worker can see there are no concerns, the fast the issue is closed and you are not bothered. 

 

Of course, if you've got something to hide, that's a different issue.  And if you've got a real, profound distrust of CPS, that is also an issue, and some people have good reason to have that distrust.  But what I am saying about how the refusal to talk or produce the kids is seen is true almost across the board, so even with a profound distrust, you still need to understand some of the consequences of not speaking to CPS or coorperating - even where you know 100% for sure that someone meaning to cause you harm made the report.

 

And for the record, the number of malicious reports CPS receives (in US and in Canada) is seriously miniscule compared to the number of reports where there are real issues.  Tiny.  Please keep that in mind too - CPS has a lot more important things to do than go out and investigate bogus reports, so the faster we can figure out it's bogus, the better for those who really need CPS interventions.

 

 



I did let them see my ds....I put a coat on him and brought him to the front stoop. I simpy did not let them in. My thought process was this: right now, all they know is what they were told. They have no proof. If I bring them into this house, who is to say they won't find 5 more things that they don't like? According to the laws, as long as they can see that the children are alive and not visibly hurt, they can't remove them. Now if I had refused to let them see my ds, they could have forced their way into the house to make sure he was alright. That is understandable.....they want to make sure the child is ok. There is no need to inspect my house. They also forced me to sign a document that put me at serious risk because there was no way for me to abide by it, and if they caught us breaking the terms of the agreement (that DP have no contact with either of the children, even by phone, or be in the same place as them, even at our religious meetings) then they could theoretically say "oh, you put your kids in danger" even though I knew that the accusation was 100% malicious and untrue. I had to tread very lightly and proceed with extreme caution while the case was open. So I'm not saying don't cooperate with CPS. My issue was that they sent a 20-something single chick with no kids, and a cop with a very nasty attitude, to my front door. What are either of them going to tell ME about raising my children, and who are they to decide whether it's being done right? A degree does not an expert make. I guess my point is, they can make an issue about "concerns" that re not legitimately an issue. Co sleeping, for example. It was one of the complaints that my mom raised (our sleeping setup for the kids at her house). We think her real reason is that she wanted ds sleeping alone ikn his room so that he would be easier to access. I know that is sick, but ufortunately a reall possibility. But for CPS it's a SIDS issue and a big deal. Not letting CPS in gave me time to decide whether I wanted to make the hoiuse how they wanted to see it (a crib and all that.) all I ended up doing was putting a bedrail on the bed, and cleaning up a bit. but I find that decisions made hastily are usually regretted later.


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#17 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 08:36 PM
 
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They don't need a warrant to come in and speak with your kids...


How does that work though? If a CPS worker shows up on a doorstep and a parent refuses entry, the CPS worker is allowed to just barge their way in or what? I have no idea how CPS works, so my whole knowledge of allowing entry into my home is based on cop shows (heh), where a warrant is always required. How is the general public supposed to be aware that CPS workers have special privileges when it comes to home entry? And I have no idea what official CPS identification looks like, so if some stranger appears on my doorstep, even with an official-looking badge of some sort, they aren't coming inside my house. Wouldn't I be putting my kids at risk if I just let some stranger in my home? 

 

Anyway, CPS never ever crosses my mind except for when I read threads about it on MDC, so I'm not worried about this stuff for myself, but I do think it's too bad that CPS apparently has all these special rules that no one is aware of, but that parents will be dinged for not knowing. 

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#18 of 143 Old 05-24-2011, 09:09 PM
 
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I did let them see my ds....I put a coat on him and brought him to the front stoop. I simpy did not let them in. My thought process was this: right now, all they know is what they were told. They have no proof. If I bring them into this house, who is to say they won't find 5 more things that they don't like? According to the laws, as long as they can see that the children are alive and not visibly hurt, they can't remove them. Now if I had refused to let them see my ds, they could have forced their way into the house to make sure he was alright. That is understandable.....they want to make sure the child is ok. There is no need to inspect my house. They also forced me to sign a document that put me at serious risk because there was no way for me to abide by it, and if they caught us breaking the terms of the agreement (that DP have no contact with either of the children, even by phone, or be in the same place as them, even at our religious meetings) then they could theoretically say "oh, you put your kids in danger" even though I knew that the accusation was 100% malicious and untrue. I had to tread very lightly and proceed with extreme caution while the case was open. So I'm not saying don't cooperate with CPS. My issue was that they sent a 20-something single chick with no kids, and a cop with a very nasty attitude, to my front door. What are either of them going to tell ME about raising my children, and who are they to decide whether it's being done right? A degree does not an expert make. I guess my point is, they can make an issue about "concerns" that re not legitimately an issue. Co sleeping, for example. It was one of the complaints that my mom raised (our sleeping setup for the kids at her house). We think her real reason is that she wanted ds sleeping alone ikn his room so that he would be easier to access. I know that is sick, but ufortunately a reall possibility. But for CPS it's a SIDS issue and a big deal. Not letting CPS in gave me time to decide whether I wanted to make the hoiuse how they wanted to see it (a crib and all that.) all I ended up doing was putting a bedrail on the bed, and cleaning up a bit. but I find that decisions made hastily are usually regretted later.

Just because a social worker does not have children doesn't mean she is not an expert. They CAN still determine whether or not your house is a fit place for a child to live according to the law. I don't understand how a person would have to be a parent to make that call, especially when that is their job and what they are trained to do and, yes, a degree does kind of make you an expert, lol. I would argue that just having kids does not make one an expert.

 

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#19 of 143 Old 05-25-2011, 06:24 AM
 
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There IS no presumed innocent when it comes to the safety of a child that a person has been hired to protect.

 

This isnt court. These people are comming b/c someone said your kids are being maltreated or abused.

 

Would you tell a police officer to come back later if they had a call about someones safety? Would the cop leave if you asked them to please comeback later, after you have cleaned your house?

 

How about the fire brigade? Would you tell them to come back later?

 

Of course not.

 

Why in the world would you ask the people who have come on a call that your kids safety is at risk to come back later? Their job is to ensure the kids are safe, at that moment.

 

This is the US law

 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized 

 

If they have probable cause to think that your child is in danger b/c of a reasonable suspicion given to them by a thrid party, they have the legal right to search and seize.

 

 

 

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If it is a serious allegation, they return later with a warrent to remove your kids b/c they were unable to complete their investigation that your children were safe and their home was secure of any dangers. (Not clean, but safe).

 

Why risk that? I am truely at a loss b/c I dont understand why someone would refuse the CPS the ability to ensure your children are safe. They dont want to remove your kids.

 

They want to ensure that your kids are not being harmed.

 

Parents abuse their kids. Parents murder their kids. I have seen it first hand.

 

Thats why CPS is there. The workers dont know you from Eve. If someone says that your bausing your kids, then they have to ensure your not. Its as simple as that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Your absoluetely right, they can speak to your kids w/o a warrent. I believe that they cant remove your kids w/o a warrent.

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Originally Posted by beenmum View Post

If it is a serious allegation, they return later with a warrent to remove your kids b/c they were unable to complete their investigation that your children were safe and their home was secure of any dangers. (Not clean, but safe).

 

Why risk that? I am truely at a loss b/c I dont understand why someone would refuse the CPS the ability to ensure your children are safe. They dont want to remove your kids.

 

They want to ensure that your kids are not being harmed.

 

Parents abuse their kids. Parents murder their kids. I have seen it first hand.

 

Thats why CPS is there. The workers dont know you from Eve. If someone says that your bausing your kids, then they have to ensure your not. Its as simple as that.

 


I'm not arguing that kids shouldn't be protected from abusive parents and caretakers. I'm saying that there's a significant lack of widespread community education and awareness about what is and isn't legal and acceptable when it comes to CPS workers. I wouldn't know the first thing about how to verify that the person standing on my porch and demanding to see my children is, in fact, a CPS worker and not some nutter who is trying to harm me or my kids. If a stranger appears on my doorstep and demands to see my children, you can bet that my first reaction will be one of skepticism and defensiveness -- isn't that fairly natural? 

 

And the whole "if you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?" thing is such a slippery slope. I don't use drugs or have any in my home, but that doesn't mean that I'd submit to a cavity search because a stranger appeared on my doorstep and asked to see my rectum, you know? They may well be able to force me to submit to a search eventually, but they'd have to jump through every legal hoop first, and it wouldn't be because I had something to hide. 

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#23 of 143 Old 05-25-2011, 01:59 PM
 
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I'm not arguing that kids shouldn't be protected from abusive parents and caretakers. I'm saying that there's a significant lack of widespread community education and awareness about what is and isn't legal and acceptable when it comes to CPS workers. I wouldn't know the first thing about how to verify that the person standing on my porch and demanding to see my children is, in fact, a CPS worker and not some nutter who is trying to harm me or my kids. If a stranger appears on my doorstep and demands to see my children, you can bet that my first reaction will be one of skepticism and defensiveness -- isn't that fairly natural? 

 

And the whole "if you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?" thing is such a slippery slope. I don't use drugs or have any in my home, but that doesn't mean that I'd submit to a cavity search because a stranger appeared on my doorstep and asked to see my rectum, you know? They may well be able to force me to submit to a search eventually, but they'd have to jump through every legal hoop first, and it wouldn't be because I had something to hide. 

clap.gif

 

I actually tried to lookup last night whether or not CAS in Ontario (CPS for Americans) is permitted into your house without a warrant and the answer is murky.

 

It seems police are allowed into your house without a warrant and may apprehend children without a warrant if they:

 

a)  have serious concerns that children are in  danger  

b)  they do not believe there is time to get a warrant and the situation is grave.

 

It was less clear on what CAS workers were permitted to do under the law (i.e. enter without permission - not that I can see this happening).  It also does not mention what serious concerns are - is a third party report a serious concern?  Abuse and danger might be - but neglect other than serious neglect might not be.

 

I actually spent about 1/2 hour trying to dig up an answer to this question and got nowhere.  I think CAS does not want people to know their rights (suspicious minded of me, I know).  People who do not know their rights are easier to manipulate.  Flame away at me if you want, but I have seen this (people in power wanting others kept in the dark) over and over again.

 

I would also like to point out that many of the people that answered here work for CAS or CPS.  They are well versed in CAS policy - but CAS policy is not necessarily the law.  CAS policy may be that they have to get in the house and talk to the kids - that is fine and dandy - but their rules might not be something that parents have to comply with.  The rules on if parents have to comply with entry without a warrant may depend on circumstances (police presence who say "let us in without a warrant" or not).  Of course, parents may decide the easiest and best course is to comply - I have no issues with that.

 

I do not think for one minute that a judge is going terminate a parents rights because they ask to see a warrant.  Asking to see a warrant proves nothing - other than you may know your rights.  It may look suspicious to CAS workers - but looking suspicious is hardly proof of anything.   To think anything else is illogical and assumptive.   It almost seems like scare mongerring to say "let them in or they will take your kids".  That would be an serious abuse of power if it were true.



 

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#24 of 143 Old 05-25-2011, 02:05 PM
 
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Just because a social worker does not have children doesn't mean she is not an expert. They CAN still determine whether or not your house is a fit place for a child to live according to the law. I don't understand how a person would have to be a parent to make that call, especially when that is their job and what they are trained to do and, yes, a degree does kind of make you an expert, lol. I would argue that just having kids does not make one an expert.

 


Agreed.  If so many parents were such great experts themselves, there would be no need for CPS.  I was once a 20 something childless social worker whose outlook and job didn't change once she had kids. Not to mention, if you have any idea the types of homes social workers go into the vast majority of the time, you would know that your average 8th grader would be able to deem a home unsafe in about 80% of the cases... 
 

 

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I do not think for one minute that a judge is going terminate a parents rights because they ask to see a warrant.  Asking to see a warrant proves nothing - other than you may know your rights.  It may look suspicious to CAS workers - but looking suspicious is hardly proof of anything.   To think anything else is illogical and assumptive.   It almost seems like scare mongerring to say "let them in or they will take your kids".  That would be an serious abuse of power if it were true.
 


You're really dismissive of the responses of those of us who have/do work in CPS considering you're making guesses as to how social workers and judges will respond.  It isn't scare mongering to suggest your best bet is to let CPS in.  What sort of motive do you think we have in advising that?  If you have nothing to hide, you are best to let CPS in.  No, a judge won't TPR because you didn't allow access to your kids, but you may end up having your kids in foster care before you're able to sort things out.  It is a straight up bad idea to be uncooperative with CPS as they will automatically assume you are trying to hide something.  Bad, bad, bad advice.  And my ONLY reason for even bothering to post that is so that if anyone on these boards ends up in the unlikely and unfortunate situation of being falsely accused of something and ends up with CPS at their doorstep, I'd like them to know that the fastest way to resolve everything will be to show CPS you have nothing to hide.   
 

 

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You're really dismissive of the responses of those of us who have/do work in CPS considering you're making guesses as to how social workers and judges will respond.  It isn't scare mongering to suggest your best bet is to let CPS in.  What sort of motive do you think we have in advising that?  If you have nothing to hide, you are best to let CPS in.  No, a judge won't TPR because you didn't allow access to your kids, but you may end up having your kids in foster care before you're able to sort things out.  It is a straight up bad idea to be uncooperative with CPS as they will automatically assume you are trying to hide something.  Bad, bad, bad advice.  And my ONLY reason for even bothering to post that is so that if anyone on these boards ends up in the unlikely and unfortunate situation of being falsely accused of something and ends up with CPS at their doorstep, I'd like them to know that the fastest way to resolve everything will be to show CPS you have nothing to hide.   
 

 


Lots here.

 

I am not dismissive pf the responses of those who work for CPS.  I am simply stating CPS policy may not be law.  There is a difference.

 

Beenmum has said twice that if you do not let CPS in a judge will take your kids. I think that is fear mongerring.  

 

It is a sad day when refusing to let strangers (CPS)  into your house means you have something to hide.  Sad.  I cannot control how people think, but I sincerely hope CPS does not assume you have something to hide because you do not give them free access to your kids and home.  

 

I am not advising people on how to act if CPS shows up at your door - it may be that cooperating is the best idea.  I do not know and individual circumstances do come into play.

 

My argument here has been with whether or not CPS an come into your house without a warrant.  I have said I did not know and had a hard time finding out.  This is very different from saying whether or not as parent should co-operate with CPS.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#27 of 143 Old 05-25-2011, 03:45 PM
 
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Beenmum has said twice that if you do not let CPS in a judge will take your kids. I think that is fear mongerring.  

 

It is a sad day when refusing to let strangers (CPS)  into your house means you have something to hide.  Sad.

 


I don't think that advising that the fastest way to get CPS out of your life is to let them in is fear mongering.  It is truly in a parent's best interest to cooperate with CPS. 

 

 It would be an even more sad day if hundreds of thousands of kids continued to be abused and neglected because CPS no longer had the right to come into homes and check on the welfare of children about whom serious allegations had been made.  There is, unfortunately, no way to verify child safety and well being without some invasion of privacy. 
 

 

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#28 of 143 Old 05-25-2011, 03:54 PM
 
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My argument here has been with whether or not CPS an come into your house without a warrant. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think so, no.  In fact, even if they show up with the police, no one can enter your private residence without a court order (unless immediate danger is apparent -- ie a guy with a knife going after someone, and this is visible from the porch). You are absolutely within your rights to refuse entry, to anyone - law enforcement included (who often tag along as reinforcement when there are abuse allegations w/enough evidence to assume it could be dangerous for the field worker). 

 

However, CPS can very well keep your case open and supervisors can go to a judge and get a warrant.  Before it gets to that point, they have the legal right to talk to your family, friends, pediatrician, teachers, and even your kids while they are in school.  They can very well create a case against you without your full cooperation, and for the most part, yes, they are going to assume you have something to hide when you are restricting their access into your life.  Their job is to be sure that children are safe.  This may be something they are able to determine from afar, from interviews and statements, documents and phone calls; but the process could very well go so much quicker and smoother, I'm thinking, if they are able to just see the children and determine they are in fact, not being abused or neglected.  Of course, even seeing the kids and touring your home, they might not be able to close the case right there on the spot, but they surely can do so quicker if they actually have that opportunity vs. being strung along and having to involve legal action. 

 

There are risks involved with letting CPS come inside your home and life unannounced, sure, but there are huge, huge, huge risks when child welfare is unable to determine whether or not the call they got is in fact a abuse case, where innocent children could be in immediate danger. 
 

 

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I don't think that advising that the fastest way to get CPS out of your life is to let them in is fear mongering.  It is truly in a parent's best interest to cooperate with CPS. 

 

 



I did not say that. My statement (below) was in direct response to Beanmum statement (further below).

 

It is not fear mongering to advise people to let CPS in; it is fear mongering to say not letting them in will result in their removal by the end of the day.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post




 

 

Beenmum has said twice that if you do not let CPS in a judge will take your kids. I think that is fear mongerring.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



 



Quote:
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And they CAN just come into your home. They do not need an invitation. IF you refuse, you will be put to the fdront of the caseload and you will have a judge signing to remove your kids before the end of the day.

 

 



 

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However, CPS can very well keep your case open and supervisors can go to a judge and get a warrant.  Before it gets to that point, they have the legal right to talk to your family, friends, pediatrician, teachers, and even your kids while they are in school.  They can very well create a case against you without your full cooperation, and for the most part, yes, they are going to assume you have something to hide when you are restricting their access into your life.  Their job is to be sure that children are safe.  This may be something they are able to determine from afar, from interviews and statements, documents and phone calls; but the process could very well go so much quicker and smoother, I'm thinking, if they are able to just see the children and determine they are in fact, not being abused or neglected.  Of course, even seeing the kids and touring your home, they might not be able to close the case right there on the spot, but they surely can do so quicker if they actually have that opportunity vs. being strung along and having to involve legal action. 

 

There are risks involved with letting CPS come inside your home and life unannounced, sure, but there are huge, huge, huge risks when child welfare is unable to determine whether or not the call they got is in fact a abuse case, where innocent children could be in immediate danger. 


I don't disagree with you, you're just operating from a starting point that's one step ahead of me. You're operating from the assumption that everyone involved agrees that the people standing on the porch are, in fact, CPS workers, and I'm saying ... how do we know? A badge or other form of ID can easily be faked, especially since most people aren't familiar with what official CPS identification looks like, or really anything about how the investigation process works. It'd be nice if some effort were made to educate the general public on how to respond, especially when the penalty for my ignorance is that I'll suddenly appear suspicious enough to maybe have my children removed. 

 

For me, stranger at door + or - "official" looking identification = no entry until I can confirm that the person is who they say they are (maybe by calling whatever number I can find online for CPS and verifying that they are, in fact, launching an investigation on me, and that the people at the door are employed with them and assigned to my case). It would be foolhardy to just let someone in because they say they're with CPS.

 

So I guess I'm just starting there, at the beginning, where strangers appear at the door in the middle of an otherwise normal day. It sounds to me like some people are saying that if my immediate reaction to strangers at the door isn't to fling it wide open and invite them in, there's something suspicious about me, and that just sounds crazy to me. 


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