Welfare Moms - Should we be supporting moms so they can stay at home with their children? - Page 13 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#361 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 05:56 AM
 
crunchy_mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Serenbat, I was actually laying awake last night thinking about this thread & I think perhaps I understand where you're coming from. I don't really get the combativeness etc. but maybe I get what you're trying to say?

I used to be solidly middle-class. We had enough money for a cheap apartment, we never had to worry about groceries, we could buy what we needed when we needed it, and we were able to save up a ton of money. We lived frugally, but more by choice than absolute necessity.

Now, we are lower-middle-class, teetering on the edge of lower-class (I hate that term BTW but I'm not sure what else to use). We don't make enough to cover our basic bills, but we make too much to qualify for assistance... and I think last time I checked, it was literally less than $50/month too much. It's a horrible place to be. Yes, in the end, someone on welfare may have a better financial picture than I do. Someone on welfare isn't having almost half their income go to medical costs.

So I don't know if the position you're in is similar to mine. If it is, I can understand a bit why you might feel angry & resentful. I don't feel this way, but I can understand why others might. I think there really is a hugely under-recognized issue with those in the lower-middle-class income bracket. There is support for the those who make much less money, and those who make much more money have a lot of wiggle room. Somewhere in the middle there are those still struggling to survive. I think it's especially apparent in HCOL areas, especially when many programs are based on federal standards. $1K/mo in TX will go a lot farther than $1K/mo in NY but there are only slight adjustments (if any) to the state's income guidelines.

So... am I on target at all?

Co-sleeping is really wonderful when your child actually SLEEPS!! familybed1.gif
crunchy_mommy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#362 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 06:03 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post

All the divisions in our society between those who are struggling the most seem very similar to all the divisions between the kids in the lowest rungs of the social hierarchy in, say, a junior high school. The kids who are awkward and don't have their looks all together yet are actually much greater in number than the so-called beautiful people -- but they often want to distance themselves from their fellow-strugglers because to hang out with a bunch of "dorks" is to come to term with the reality that in this particular "world," they are also a "dork." The bullies really capitalize on the fact that they can single these "dorks" out one at a time and sometimes get other "dorks" to join in with the bullying.

I think that's what the "we are the 99%" slogan is all about --- shaking up that paradigm.


This is about money, and having a decent life, not looks or old high school feelings.
pek64 is offline  
#363 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 06:05 AM
 
captain optimism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Good Ship Lollipop
Posts: 6,853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

many seem to miss this part!

When you don't get any assistance, you choose to have children and take responsibility for them because you don't get assistance and have to do it on your own.

 

The problem is that you're thinking of this as money that goes to parents. I think of it as money that goes to children to keep them in their families. Children don't choose to be born, they can't be expected to "take responsibility," and they have urgent needs. If we don't provide well for them, we get bad results. (And in fact, we don't provide very well for them and we do get relatively bad results, compared to other wealthy countries.) 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

this isn't only it - we have state programs that continue to aid in housing, plus county food/housing assistance, WIC, CHIP and school lunch aid 

 

 

Yes, true. All are means-tested programs to keep low-income children from being homeless and hungry and from dying of preventable diseases. 

 

It's not that I don't get it. In fact, knowing what things were like before we had these programs, for example in the Great Depression, I think they are critical to our ability to grow as a society. Right now, our income level here determines our life expectancy. I do get it. I'm just repelled by this ideology of "I've got mine, Jack," and regarding children as belonging to other people. There is a good reason to do this through the government, and that is, it's been shown to work in every country where the government does it. 


Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
captain optimism is offline  
#364 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 06:10 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post

I think our feelings are just our feelings and don't need any defense at all. The problem comes in when someone doesn't know how to process those feelings in a healthy way and just starts striking out at other people. Those other people have feelings, too.

People strike out when their feelings are criticized.
pek64 is offline  
#365 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 06:19 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anca View Post

1. SAH for 1 year receiving 85% calculated from their average basic salary during those 12 months, which cannot be less than $180/month or more than  $1030/month (mothers who have earned more are not intitled to receive their 85% if it goes by that limit)....

 

...Oh and the children after 2 yrs old are entitled to receive around $13/month -it sounds like a joke but it's not. So here with this money you can buy two books or three pizza. 

 

Unfortunately, women with low education and low income are encouraged to have babies while women with higher education and higher income and especially middle class are discouraged to have more than 1 child. Families with 3 children are rare, especially in the educated and good income homes. 

From what you're saying, it sounds like the women with higher education and higher income are making well in excess of $1030 a month and therefore don't want to take that much of a cut in pay for very long. Presumably, they can also afford better child care options than the public day care that most poor mothers would be forced to rely on.

 

Since the poor stay-at-home mother would lose her monthly stipend after the first child turned 2, and wouldn't get it for any subsequent children unless she worked for 12 months prior to their births, it really sounds like it's the suboptimum day care -- and not the monthly stipend for that first baby -- that makes many of these women decide that it's preferable to just stay home and let those $13 payments gradually add up. Since each child has to turn 2 before they get another $13, it sounds like this must still a real struggle for most families.

 

I realize the extreme conservative view would be that all that help should just be taken away -- but it honestly makes more sense to improve the day care system and provide poor women with more education and training so they can earn better incomes. After all, the reason that most middle class women don't think it's "the bees knees" to keep having baby after baby is that they are used to bringing in more than 4x the poor women's salary and don't want to give up that lifestyle. What is the poor woman really giving up if she decides not to go back to work? It seems like she is actually gaining a tremendous sense of comfort in knowing that her children are well cared for.

 

The answer isn't to make life even more miserable for poor women, so that they'll feel like they really have no option but to leave their children in care they're uncomfortable with. The answer is to give them more tools to work with so they can actually start envisioning and working toward a better life.


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#366 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 06:42 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post


This is about money, and having a decent life, not looks or old high school feelings.

 

Social status in middle school or high school is a lot like money in adult life, in that those with more of these things have more power to create a decent life for themselves in either situation. In both situations, most of the people at the top find it beneficial to band together and make their existences even more beautiful by working together and manipulating the social rules together.

 

In contrast, those at the bottom naturally don't like being at the bottom, and in many cases, they prefer to distance themselves from others in similar situations because they don't really want to admit, even to themselves, that this is where they are at in the hierarchy right now, and maybe forever (for a teenager, spending all your teen years at the bottom of the social ladder feels kind of like forever).

 

So while many in the lower rungs are looking for ways to prove to themselves and others that at least they're better than so-and-so, many at the top are enjoying one another's company and enjoying the perks of being in good with some the other powers that be.

 

I really do see a parallel between these two situations, because in both cases, many at the bottom experience a real sense of isolation due to the fact that so many in similar situations are just looking for someone else that they can feel superior to.


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#367 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 06:43 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It seems that a lot of what's being said comes from knowing the problem in theory only. When you have lived in that zone where you don't qualify, yet skip meals so your child can eat with the heat on in the winter, and you see those with more money piling up deductions to avoid taxes, and others not working while receiving the assistance you can't have, THEN we can talk about this.

Some programs may be designed to be temporary, but people find ways to abuse them. It's a fact. I know someone who only works 2 days a week. Her child is in school. I don't know why she doesn't work 5 days, but I feel it is none of my business. She does get aid, including WIC. Should she?? Maybe. Maybe not.

The system is abused by some, though it is difficult to know for certain *who* is needy and who is abusing the system. The rules for who gets aid and who doesn't are not working! This is frustrating to some. If you are not frustrated, fine. But maybe you can try to understand the person who *is* frustrated, instead of telling her there's nothing to be frustrated about.
pek64 is offline  
#368 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 06:50 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post

Social status in middle school or high school is a lot like money in adult life, in that those with more of these things have more power to create a decent life for themselves in either situation. In both situations, most of the people at the top find it beneficial to band together and make their existences even more beautiful by working together and manipulating the social rules together.

In contrast, those at the bottom naturally don't like being at the bottom, and in many cases, they prefer to distance themselves from others in similar situations because they don't really want to admit, even to themselves, that this is where they are at in the hierarchy right now, and maybe forever (for a teenager, spending all your teen years at the bottom of the social ladder feels kind of like forever).

So while many in the lower rungs are looking for ways to prove to themselves and others that at least they're better than so-and-so, many at the top are enjoying one another's company and enjoying the perks of being in good with some the other powers that be.

I really do see a parallel between these two situations, because in both cases, many at the bottom experience a real sense of isolation due to the fact that so many in similar situations are just looking for someone else that they can feel superior to.

And maybe you're feeling superior, yourself.

This is about struggling to make ends meet! Not feelings of being on the bottom rung!
pek64 is offline  
#369 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 06:52 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,407
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Quote:
I really do not care one iota about forcing parents to be responsible.

 

Quote:
 Children don't choose to be born, they can't be expected to "take responsibility," and they have urgent needs.

 

IMO- since I have seen this - when parents don't take responsibility they also don't teach it - and YES I do know of children having children and they too are not taking responsibility 

 

 

 

Quote:
The system is abused by some, though it is difficult to know for certain *who* is needy and who is abusing the system. The rules for who gets aid and who doesn't are not working! This is frustrating to some. If you are not frustrated, fine. But maybe you can try to understand the person who *is* frustrated, instead of telling her there's nothing to be frustrated about.

yes and I too have seen personal accounts of people greatly abusing the system for year and years- I do know this is not rare as some may think it to be- it's very real


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#370 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 06:58 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

It seems that a lot of what's being said comes from knowing the problem in theory only. When you have lived in that zone where you don't qualify, yet skip meals so your child can eat with the heat on in the winter, and you see those with more money piling up deductions to avoid taxes, and others not working while receiving the assistance you can't have, THEN we can talk about this.

 

I think we can, and are, talking about it right now. To say that people can't come together and talk about things until they've all been in the exact same situations is just very isolating, because we're never all going to have the exact same lives.

 

Theories by themselves are certainly not enough, but theories are also humanity's way of organizing what we've learned about how to view and how to solve a particular problem, or a particular kind of problem. Being able to see common threads running through two different situations -- such as the social hierarchy in middle school and the socio-economic hierarchy in the larger society, can sometimes help us recognize a similar underlying dynamic in both situations.


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#371 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 07:02 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post


And maybe you're feeling superior, yourself.

 

I'm not claiming that I'm perfect and that I never succumb to the temptation to look down on someone else. I just hope I'm getting better at recognizing when I'm starting to veer in that "smug" direction.


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#372 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 07:04 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

This is about struggling to make ends meet! Not feelings of being on the bottom rung!

 

Now I'm going to have to fight against my tendency to feel smug because I can see the parallel between "struggling to make ends meet" and "feelings of being on the bottom rung."


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#373 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 07:32 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post

I'm not claiming that I'm perfect and that I never succumb to the temptation to look down on someone else. I just hope I'm getting better at recognizing when I'm starting to veer in that "smug" direction.

This shows the lack of understanding. It is not "smug" to feel taken advantage of. It is not "smug" to feel frustrated.

Think about what you are reading. Please. Before responding. You are missing the point.
pek64 is offline  
#374 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 07:33 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post

Now I'm going to have to fight against my tendency to feel smug because I can see the parallel between "struggling to make ends meet" and "feelings of being on the bottom rung."

Please fight, very hard.
pek64 is offline  
#375 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 07:36 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post

I think we can, and are, talking about it right now. To say that people can't come together and talk about things until they've all been in the exact same situations is just very isolating, because we're never all going to have the exact same lives.

Theories by themselves are certainly not enough, but theories are also humanity's way of organizing what we've learned about how to view and how to solve a particular problem, or a particular kind of problem. Being able to see common threads running through two different situations -- such as the social hierarchy in middle school and the socio-economic hierarchy in the larger society, can sometimes help us recognize a similar underlying dynamic in both situations.

We are *not* talking about this. You are preaching, without listening. There's a difference. The only "correct" response is to tell you that you are right. Why not agree to disagree and move on?
pek64 is offline  
#376 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 07:43 AM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post


We are *not* talking about this. You are preaching, without listening. There's a difference. The only "correct" response is to tell you that you are right. Why not agree to disagree and move on?

are you saying her above response that you quoted is preaching?

 

because if you are i have to say i completely disagree with you.

 

mm brings up a very valid point. i mean the people who make the policies about this do not speak through experience. hopefully through research and probably through theories. 

 

it seems to me that those who oppose welfare are saying really that system should be abolished because the working poor cant get welfare because there is no equality in the system. THAT blows my mind. no one talks about reducing our defence budget or other measures. its about lets take it out on the poor just coz its easy to do. 


 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is offline  
#377 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 08:19 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

are you saying her above response that you quoted is preaching?

because if you are i have to say i completely disagree with you.

mm brings up a very valid point. i mean the people who make the policies about this do not speak through experience. hopefully through research and probably through theories. 

it seems to me that those who oppose welfare are saying really that system should be abolished because the working poor cant get welfare because there is no equality in the system. THAT blows my mind. no one talks about reducing our defence budget or other measures. its about lets take it out on the poor just coz its easy to do. 

Why do you assume that those who oppose an unfair system are wanting to throw children out in the street to be hungry, cold, and fending for themselves?

There is no way to discuss the problems if one side is insisting that everything is peachy! And that's what seems to be going on. Talking about middle school crap, and smugly telling us how not smug they are, is *not* a discussion.

To everyone who has criticized serenbat, I ask you this -- is the system perfect the way it is right now?

If your answer is "no", then you are in a position to understand the frustration some feel when they are denied assistance and see others abusing the system. It is this frustration that is being discussed! NOT should children be cast into the street.

And theory only gets you so far with understanding. Before I experienced the nausea of pregnancy, I knew about it in theory. Having experienced it, I can say with certainty -- I was clueless!!

Please think about what I just said before you respond.
pek64 is offline  
#378 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 08:30 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)

I read a really good article a while back -- but I'm not sure I can link to it here, because it has a spiritual bent and this is not the spirituality forum. It talks about learning the difference between capitalism and truly free enterprise.

 

What I say below is mostly my own opinoins based on what I've learned from the article.

 

With capitalism, success depends on continuing to have a lower class that is willing to work for low wages. The success of some depends on not having everyone be successful, so those who've succeeded in the capitalist system have a strong interest in keeping the benefits they have by using their power to inhibit real free enterprise.

 

For example, we are now learning that it's really healthier to eat fresh, locally grown foods than to eat foods that need chemicals to keep them preserved while they're transported to us. If our economy were truly free enterprise, the healthiest option would also be the most economical. I mean, chemicals cost money, transport costs money, so why is it often cheaper to buy tomatoes or strawberries  from Mexico than it is to buy them from a local farmer? It's because we don't have free enterprise -- we have a capitalist system that's been engineered to keep the capital in the hands of big industry.

 

It should come as no surprise that many of the corporate powers feel threatened by the free exchange of information, ideas, and various kinds of products and services on the Internet. People can now easily learn about the real human and environmental costs of many of those cheap products, and many people are also finding ways to use their skills and knowledge to create a good income for themselves with little to no startup money.

 

I really believe the Internet will be key in helping us move from the confines of capitalism to a real land of free enterprise and opportunity for everyone. It won't happen overnight, but as it does, it will gradually change everyone's paradigm. Right now, it really goes against the grain for many of us to move out of the competitive mindset, because we're so used to a world of winners and losers, where we measure our success in terms of comparing ourselves to everyone else.

 

So I don't want to be devoid of compassion for that person who's looking to me as their point of comparison -- as that person who can enable them to say, "Well, at least I'm a better person and a better example to my kids than she is." Of course no one ever likes being scapegoated, but I know I've also done my own share of scapegoating throughout my life. This is where we're at now, but I think someday we'll all be able to like and respect each other, and not see anyone else as a barrier to our own success.


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#379 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 08:42 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post


We are *not* talking about this. You are preaching, without listening. There's a difference. The only "correct" response is to tell you that you are right. Why not agree to disagree and move on?

 

Why are you saying I'm not listening -- is it because I still don't agree with you and serenbat? Is the only "correct" response for me to tell you you're right?

 

As far as what you've said in at least one other post about the importance of experience, I think everyone on this thread has lots of experience with living their real lives. And actually, according to your line of reasoning, the only people "qualified" to criticize welfare recipients would be those who've actually been welfare recipients themselves.

 

And yeah, there's nothing wrong with two or more people agreeing to disagree on something, but that doesn't mean one party needs to shut up and "move on" while the other/s keep talking.


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#380 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 08:56 AM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post

Why are you saying I'm not listening -- is it because I still don't agree with you and serenbat? Is the only "correct" response for me to tell you you're right?

As far as what you've said in at least one other post about the importance of experience, I think everyone on this thread has lots of experience with living their real lives. And actually, according to your line of reasoning, the only people "qualified" to criticize welfare recipients would be those who've actually been welfare recipients themselves.

And yeah, there's nothing wrong with two or more people agreeing to disagree on something, but that doesn't mean one party needs to shut up and "move on" while the other/s keep talking.

Agreeing to disagree means you don't take one more shot at the other person.

I urge you to reread what I've already written, as I must go now. Please think about it. I don't know when I can get back to this, but I'd like to hear that you understand what I've said, even if you disagree with it. Right now, it seems that you are not understanding.

I wish a pleasant day to all!
pek64 is offline  
#381 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 09:15 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)

So you're asking me to summarize your point of view? Will you also be wiling to summarize mine?

 

As I understand it, you are asking us to have more sympathy for the working poor who make just slightly too much to qualify for any kind of assistance. I'd like to remind you that my attempts to sympathize kind of backfired with at least one other person. I tried to explain that I am mentally preparing myself for the difficult transitions that I have been, and will be, going through as my income increases and I gradually qualify for less and less assistance. I've explained that sometimes, an increase in income is not quite enough to make up for the reduction in a benefit.

 

My statements were misinterpreted as me saying that I'm trying my best not to work too much so as to be able to hang on to my current level of assistance. I realized that I may not have worded things in the best way, so I came back to explain what I'd really meant to say -- that I see an increase in income as, overall, a very wonderful thing. My comments about losing some of our food stamps when my income increased a while back, and about me knowing that I will eventually need to pay a co-pay's for my girls' medicaid, were seriously not me gasping, "Oh my god! I'm about to lost my free ride!" They were really about my attempts to empathize with serenbat; even though I know that I have never been in her exact same shoes, I think I can understand how hard it is to have to scramble to figure out how we're going to get by.

 

I also understand that you're asking us to have more sympathy for her need to sometimes lash out because she is hurting so bad. I think you have a really valid point here, but I think there's also room for those she's lashing out against to share their own points of view.


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#382 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 09:27 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,407
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Quote:
I also understand that you're asking us to have more sympathy for her need to sometimes lash out because she is hurting so bad.

I certainly do not want nor need your sympathy.

 

You do not know the whole reasoning behind how and why I feel the way I do, nor do you need all the details and given what others have posted I highly doubt much would change in your thinking regarding it. I see it very pointless to even explain farther as I feel nothing will appease you, and I do not care frankly. My state is making changes where they can for "assistance" and I (like others) do know abuse is real and many do share my point of view IRL.

 

 

 

Quote:
 I realized that I may not have worded things in the best way

I completely agree, you don't.

 

ETA- not like this will matter or that others even get it - but I do know a person that right now can not walk because she has huge upfront costs (that's what happens when people have insurance and not getting it for free) and has to WAIt to get surgery, and I know someone who is getting aid and get's her nails done weekly- I see walking as a need and nails as greed!


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#383 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 10:46 AM
 
mamaofthree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

mammal mama: i wanted to say that i loved your post about capitalism. very right on the money actually and i would love to read that article if you have the time to send me a PM link. :)

 

serenbat: ((hug)) you are hurting alot for whatever reason. you don't have to share but your anger is very up front and in people face. i wish you could have what ever it is you need to heal so you could move on and not be so angry. 

 

personally, i have know one family that "used" the system. everyone else who needed it really needed it. and most just barely scrapped by. it was not fun for them, it wasn't a party of free money that they joyously sat around laughing at all the saps who went to work and didn't just milk the system like a big bunch of losers. i can't imagine trying to feed my family on what food stamps would give. i think it is easy to blame the poor on the worlds troubles. it is easy because they have no one to stick up for them. especailly here where we love money and status and things more than people. if we truly cared for people we would all be ok in making sure everyone had what they needed to bare bones live. but instead we seem to only care about what is good for ourselves. very sad indeed. 


mama to 6 amazing children joy.gif married to my main man for 21 years love.gif and finally home FULL time dishes.gifhang.gifknit.gif

mamaofthree is offline  
#384 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 11:00 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,407
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Quote:
 i think it is easy to blame the poor on the worlds troubles. it is easy because they have no one to stick up for them. especailly here where we love money and status and things more than people.

you really just don't get any of what I am saying

 

it would be nice if people really did need assistance vs what is going on for so many others

 

 

 

Quote:
i can't imagine trying to feed my family on what food stamps would give.

since you can't imagine that, can you imagine what it is like when you don't get food stamps and can't do it?


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#385 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 11:56 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

I certainly do not want nor need your sympathy.

 

I realize that you've never asked me for sympathy. If I'm remembering right, the main thing you've asked me is whether I'm teaching my children that it's good to try to make less money in order to get more public assistance. I don't know if you've paid much attention to my responses -- I realize you did pick out the part where I realized that I may not have worded things in the best way, and you expressed your agreement with that -- but I kind of feel like you're just skimming through my posts and picking out any little tidbits you can pounce on and use as evidence to support whatever sort of beef you seem to have with me, or with whatever kind of person you seem to think I am.

 

My post about sympathy was in response to another poster who asked if I could demonstrate any understanding of what she had been saying. Good little student that I am, I decided to take a moment to demonstrate that I did understand that she was asking us all to have more sympathy for the working poor who don't qualify for any benefits, and that she was also asking us to understand that you are lashing out because you are hurting.

 

Whether you've asked for anyone's sympathy or not, you can't dictate our feelings on the matter anymore than I can force you to stop feeling that all of your hardships are caused by people like me who make less than you and therefore do currently qualify for, and receive, some assistance. Here's to hoping, with mamaofthree, that you are soon able to find a way to heal.

 

And mamaofthree, thanks so much for your kind words! I'll get that link to you ASAP.


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#386 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 07:01 PM
 
queenjane's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post


There is no way to discuss the problems if one side is insisting that everything is peachy! And that's what seems to be going on. Talking about middle school crap, and smugly telling us how not smug they are, is *not* a discussion.

 

 

You've completely misunderstand what she meant with the "middle school crap" and yet PROVE exactly what she is saying by what you've posted.

 

You dont qualify for aid and are struggling, and therefore are mad at people who DO qualify and in your opinion dont struggle as much as you do? Why are you mad at THEM? Why not be "mad at" the system/govt/whomever who thinks its ok to set the limits so low that those who dont qualify really struggle? If the chick getting her nails done while getting welfare stops getting her nails done it wont do ONE THING to help YOU get "your share" or help you not struggle. But it lets the "real enemy" (for lack of a better word) off the hook while you're casting negative looks in another poor person's direction. The whole point about the "99 percent" movement is that middle and poor income people shouldnt be fighting each other...we're all in this together.


Katherine, single homeschooling mom to Boy Genius (17) geek.gif  Thing One (6) and Thing Two (6) fencing.gif and one outgoing Girl (12) bikenew.gif and hoping for more through foster care and adoption homebirth.jpgadoptionheart-1.gif 
queenjane is offline  
#387 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 07:04 PM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

you really just don't get any of what I am saying

 

it would be nice if people really did need assistance vs what is going on for so many others

it seems neither are you coz you are writing off a whole system because "if people REALLY did need assistance". seriously. 


 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is offline  
#388 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 07:11 PM
 
queenjane's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post


 

ETA- not like this will matter or that others even get it - but I do know a person that right now can not walk because she has huge upfront costs (that's what happens when people have insurance and not getting it for free) and has to WAIt to get surgery, and I know someone who is getting aid and get's her nails done weekly- I see walking as a need and nails as greed!

 

So if person B stops getting her nails done, will Person A get her surgery? How does that work exactly? If one thing has nothing to do with the other, whats the point in mentioning it? Except to blame the poor (oh you know those welfare queens, gettin' their nails done and buying lobster with food stamps. eyesroll.gif )

 

Do you know how LOW one's income has to be to qualify for medicaid in my state? ALL of my kids get medicaid due to our income being below poverty level and yet *I* cannot get medicaid. Its a little mind boggling to me but there ya go. Its just crazy to me that instead of being mad at a system that allows someone to go without needed surgery you are expending so much emotional energy getting pissed at someone getting their nails done. I have just never understood that attitude at all. I read a poster once who said she "never forgot" (after a dozen years) a man buying a lobster with food stamps, but SHE, the cashier trying to make ends meet, could never afford lobster...to me that is so out of touch...be mad you dont make a living wage for your job, be mad lobsters so expensive, be mad that you dont qualify for help but dont be mad at the guy who may very well have eaten beans and rice every day for two weeks to afford a special meal. I've seen people begrudging a mother for buying a birthday cake for her child ("*I* could never afford store bought cake, she should have BAKED it!") or commenting on what people are wearing while using food stamps ("*I* could never afford those boots!!! why does SHE get to have them AND get food stamps??" ) and i even read one person walking out to see what kind of vehicle someone gets in ("Omg they got into a brand new car!!! bilking the system!!!" ) Its crazy to me. And really offensive.

NorthernFamily likes this.

Katherine, single homeschooling mom to Boy Genius (17) geek.gif  Thing One (6) and Thing Two (6) fencing.gif and one outgoing Girl (12) bikenew.gif and hoping for more through foster care and adoption homebirth.jpgadoptionheart-1.gif 
queenjane is offline  
#389 of 792 Old 01-25-2013, 08:15 PM
 
mamaofthree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

that is so true. because you never know how that person got the things they got. those super nice jeans/shoes/coat may have been bought off season or at the thrift store (we have gotten some nice stuff from friends FOR FREE, and i mean nice stuff), maybe that car belongs to a family member, and yeah, maybe that lobster was a birthday meal. when i was growing up we were on food stamps for a year or so and my mom still remembers epopel giving her grief for daring to buy a roast with her food stamps while they had all sorts of crap food in their own cart. like being poor means you must eat bad food. and YES we ate LOADS of beans and rice and government cheese, but once a month my mom would get a nice cut of meat or whole chicken or something.

and getting your nails done, or going out and getting a pizza or whatever... just because you are poor doesn't mean you must suffer every minute. if you pinch pennies and want to once a month treat yourself to nails, why the heck not. it only cost $15 or so. i try and remember that when i am feeling all judgy of others. what silly stuff have i spent money on? who i am to say what someone can or can't spend their wee bit of money on. 

i just refuse to be hateful and pissed off at other families for a life i know nothing about. and i am always glad when someone gets the help they need to feed their children and themselves. i am too busy counting my own blessing to be angry at others for what they have.


mama to 6 amazing children joy.gif married to my main man for 21 years love.gif and finally home FULL time dishes.gifhang.gifknit.gif

mamaofthree is offline  
#390 of 792 Old 01-26-2013, 03:55 AM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)

queenjane and mamaofthree -- thank you for bringing out those points. I am now thinking that the angry judgmentalism is not about the fact that there is welfare -- it's about the fact that some people feel if you're poor enough to qualify for any assistance at all, you owe it to society to be miserable, too, or at least not any happier than the people who don't qualify.

 

Because actually, anyone who's taken the steps and found out they don't qualify, obviously was willing to take whatever assistance they could get if they had qualified.

 

I don't know how to explain that some of us, no matter what situation we're in, simply can't stay depressed for long. For some of us, it's just second nature to find things we enjoy in every situation. To tell the truth, my midwife didn't make it in time for the birth of dd2 because, as she told me on the phone, she just didn't think I seemed miserable or uncomfortable enough to be about to have the baby. And I believed her, because dd1's labor had been totally induced in the hospital, so I wasn't even sure if the mild contractions that felt just slightly stronger than Braxton-Hicks were really labor, LOL.

 

And for anyone who can't see a parallel between thinking someone's not miserable enough to be in labor, and thinking they're not miserable enough to really need any public assistance for their family -- I'm sad for you that you can't see it. Because for me, being able to see parallels and connecting threads between seemingly totally different situations is helping me see a whole lot of things more clearly.


Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off