What do you do that cancels our your NFL/AP/CRUNCHY/NON-Mainstream/MDCness? - Page 13 - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-20-2011, 09:09 AM
 
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Also I get what you mean about it being a business but everything in this country is a business (even how to potty a child). It doesn't matter what the subject the US is all about making money,

 

The thing is being AP is not a knew thing it's the old way of parenting before all the cribs, formula, and CIO was introduced. I am just getting back to the roots of human parenting IMO not following some new fad in parenting.


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Old 06-20-2011, 09:49 AM
 
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I am just getting back to the roots of human parenting IMO not following some new fad in parenting. 

 

Back in the bad old days people bf (well poor people did at any rate) and co-slept and died at huge numbers before age five because that's the only choice you had. The majority of the population lived in unimaginable poverty and most of the so called "AP" principles you seem to feel are the roots of parenting were simply necessity. One room shacks, freezing winters with no heat, one bed if you were lucky-those were the driving factors, NOT a desire to be AP.

 

AP is a new fad in parenting-it was introduced as a concept in the 50's or 60's. I guess you could argue you are making some of the same choices, but your reasons are entirely modern-and based on the relative ease of life today as compared to parenting in past centuries.

 

 

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Old 06-20-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:26 AM
 
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I know about the Continuum Concept and I find it to be an exercise in the Noble Savage school of literature-not where I am interesting in getting info on parenting.

 

 

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Old 06-20-2011, 11:13 AM
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We eat fast food.

My kids are on select sports teams.

My kids go to school and do homework. 

We use bribes and punishments. I can't stand poorly behaved children.

I love my stroller.

I started solids at 4 months with my current (third) child. 

My last two children have used pacifiers. 

I give baby ibuprofen for teething. 

I think homeopathy is quackery. See also: Nourishing Traditions/Weston A Price/Sally Fallon and Waldorf schooling.

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Old 06-20-2011, 11:21 AM
 
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:30 AM
 
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I have never read that book but yeah I meant more in an animalistic sense. What do mammals do? Look at a monkey it BFs, co-sleeps, baby wears etc.

 

I am certainly not advocating we should live like poor people with no heat and die. All I am saying is that AP has been done for a long long time there was just not a name for it. Of course people didn't aspire to it b/c it was just instinctual.


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Old 06-20-2011, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Anyone ever seen the movie Motherhood with Uma Thurman?

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Old 06-20-2011, 11:51 AM
 
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It seemed to me that you were under the impression that AP concepts just stemmed from the desire to go back to like pre-industrial times in Europe or America 

 

No that was in response to a poster I was disagreeing with. AP is a modern philosophy. My point was that many of the so-called AP practices in the days of yore were done only because there was no other choice. I see it on this board many times-this idea that modern parenting is cold and sterile and we should go back to the way this mythical super biologically appropriate Mama used to do it.

 

 

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Old 06-20-2011, 12:43 PM
 
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Old 06-20-2011, 03:45 PM
 
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Oaktreemama, how did you choose the 1950s and 1960s as the date of origin for Attachment Parenting? I think some of the ideas people associate with AP, like gentle discipline, do have their origins in that period--mainly the writing of child psychologist Haim Ginott. I'm just curious about how you came up with that as the date, when many people here are more influenced by later writing--Sears, et.al. 

 

I also have to agree strongly with riverscout that many ideas of "modern" parenting in the 20th century were cold, and worse than cold, extremely damaging if implemented in the way experts advocated. (I gratefully suspect that mostly, they weren't!)

 

Take scheduled infant feedings with formula, for example. I think we have more than adequate evidence that breastfeeding has benefits for mother and baby and that scheduled feeding and parent-directed feeding may teach an infant to ignore his or her own hunger cues. We also have a tendency to mock excessive devotion to health food and organically grown food, but this seems to me a reaction to revelations about the damaging impact of toxic pesticides and the ways processed foods have removed necessary nutrients.  

 

There are sometimes people on these boards whose parents hit them when they were growing up, or neglected them in various ways. I don't think the turn toward AP is only a romantic, backward-looking phenomenon. It's part of a multi-faceted search for a connected and wholesome way of life. In many ways, I honor and love people who are willing to be a little absurd in search of the best life for their children. 


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Old 06-20-2011, 04:09 PM
 
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Why is being on sports team is ani-crunchy? I mean, I am blessed with unatheltic kids, but if a sport is something some kid need to be happy, why is not AP?

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Old 06-20-2011, 04:21 PM
 
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Oaktreemama, how did you choose the 1950s and 1960s as the date of origin for Attachment Parenting? I think some of the ideas people associate with AP, like gentle discipline, do have their origins in that period--mainly the writing of child psychologist Haim Ginott. I'm just curious about how you came up with that as the date, when many people here are more influenced by later writing--Sears, et.al. 

 

Yes I was using the writings of Ginott as a starting point. I have read the Sear's parenting books and gleaned info from them but also found the patriarchal tone a bit hard to swallow. At any rate my point was merely that I see this romanticized viewing of the past as some kind of basis for AP living and I don't believe that is valid. Of course I understand there has been bad and dangerous advice in regards to babies and children in the (mostly early) 20th century. But I suspect that bad advice has been going around since we humans learned how to talk.

 

How AP is practiced is IMO a thoroughly modern construct based on ideas put forth by more forward thinking psychologists and child experts. We can argue about biology and evolution in regards to child rearing and may actually agree more than disagree. I just don't think the answers are in books like the Continuum Concept or romanticized versions of the past.

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Old 06-20-2011, 04:24 PM
 
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The past was great. The nobel savages are great model.. Past was brutal and people need to take an anthropology class

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Old 06-20-2011, 04:56 PM
 
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Haven't seen it but it looks funny!

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Anyone ever seen the movie Motherhood with Uma Thurman?



 


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Old 06-20-2011, 05:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oaktreemama View Post

Yes I was using the writings of Ginott as a starting point. I have read the Sear's parenting books and gleaned info from them but also found the patriarchal tone a bit hard to swallow. At any rate my point was merely that I see this romanticized viewing of the past as some kind of basis for AP living and I don't believe that is valid. Of course I understand there has been bad and dangerous advice in regards to babies and children in the (mostly early) 20th century. But I suspect that bad advice has been going around since we humans learned how to talk.

 

How AP is practiced is IMO a thoroughly modern construct based on ideas put forth by more forward thinking psychologists and child experts. We can argue about biology and evolution in regards to child rearing and may actually agree more than disagree. I just don't think the answers are in books like the Continuum Concept or romanticized versions of the past.

I have some of the same criticisms of Sears and the Continuum Concept. I don't think I can stomach traditionalism or things being "natural" as the sole reason for parenting practices--at least not the ones I'm going to adopt. But on the other hand, I like the phrase "honor the impulse" (which I learned from a parenting book!) as a way to describe my attitude toward the goal of natural parenting. I mean, I didn't buy the Continuum Concept, but I immediately saw it as a way to include children in the things that are important to the family--and you don't do that if you really hate children. 

 

I don't have such an ahistoric view of childhood in the past, though. I don't think all bad advice is equal--some of it is part of a folkloric tradition and some is part of intentional ideologies and beliefs about the nature of human beings. You could view AP as part of a pendulum swing in social history, except that social history doesn't work very neatly and there are always hangovers from previous ideas in the culture. That's why in some of the country AP looks very out there, and it's hard to defend child-centered practices except on the basis of being "natural" or "traditional."

 

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The past was great. The nobel savages are great model.. Past was brutal and people need to take an anthropology class

Oh please, as if anthropology isn't a completely socially constructed, morally-dubious academic discipline, riddled with cultural relativism and judgment about so-called "primitive" peoples. The past was brutal? In most of the world, the PRESENT is brutal.  

 

In any case,  the study of the past is history, not anthropology. 


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Old 06-20-2011, 05:26 PM
 
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:30 PM
 
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When did you take an antropology class last time? I took one last semester and I was really impressed by culutural sensitivity and balanced view. History is not ideologically driven you say?

Life is pain and suffereding, past or present. But to think think the modern American time is more brutal than live of many people now or in the past just shows amazing ignorance of the privileged.

 

How many epopel in US stay for hours in food lines? Watch their child die for a lack of simple IV or antibiotic? HAve goverment come into their house and take their mother and fatehr to a concentration camps?

 

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Old 06-20-2011, 05:37 PM
 
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by captain optimism View Post

Oaktreemama, how did you choose the 1950s and 1960s as the date of origin for Attachment Parenting? I think some of the ideas people associate with AP, like gentle discipline, do have their origins in that period--mainly the writing of child psychologist Haim Ginott. I'm just curious about how you came up with that as the date, when many people here are more influenced by later writing--Sears, et.al. 

 

I also have to agree strongly with riverscout that many ideas of "modern" parenting in the 20th century were cold, and worse than cold, extremely damaging if implemented in the way experts advocated. (I gratefully suspect that mostly, they weren't!)

 

Take scheduled infant feedings with formula, for example. I think we have more than adequate evidence that breastfeeding has benefits for mother and baby and that scheduled feeding and parent-directed feeding may teach an infant to ignore his or her own hunger cues. We also have a tendency to mock excessive devotion to health food and organically grown food, but this seems to me a reaction to revelations about the damaging impact of toxic pesticides and the ways processed foods have removed necessary nutrients.  

 

There are sometimes people on these boards whose parents hit them when they were growing up, or neglected them in various ways. I don't think the turn toward AP is only a romantic, backward-looking phenomenon. It's part of a multi-faceted search for a connected and wholesome way of life. In many ways, I honor and love people who are willing to be a little absurd in search of the best life for their children. 


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Old 06-20-2011, 07:13 PM
 
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Riverscout is right, I said "in most of the world, the present is brutal," not singling out the United States. I also did NOT say that history is not ideologically driven. I said it is the study of the past, which anthropology is not. 

 

But speaking of privilege, I'm not sure why you think the United States isn't also brutal for some portion of our population. How many people in the United States are in prison?  I'll give you a hint. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world, of any country, both in absolute terms and as a proportion of our population. We use solitary confinement, even though it's been shown to drive some prisoners insane. We execute people convicted of murder. We banned the execution of minors only six years ago. We have a whole economy based on prison labor. 

 

(Sorry, I was going to suggest you attempt to rebut that, but I'm reminded that this is entirely off topic, if enjoyable.) 

 

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When did you take an antropology class last time? I took one last semester and I was really impressed by culutural sensitivity and balanced view. History is not ideologically driven you say?

Life is pain and suffereding, past or present. But to think think the modern American time is more brutal than live of many people now or in the past just shows amazing ignorance of the privileged.

 

How many epopel in US stay for hours in food lines? Watch their child die for a lack of simple IV or antibiotic? HAve goverment come into their house and take their mother and fatehr to a concentration camps?

 



 


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Old 06-20-2011, 07:15 PM
 
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Could all you people debating/arguing/whatever just go away so this thread can get back on topic? 

 

 

I thought of more uncrunchy.

 

I yell.   A lot.  So do my kids.  I wouldn't change that.

We don't use public transportation.

I love sugar.  Oreos rock.

 

 


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Old 06-20-2011, 07:18 PM
 
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I don't think all bad advice is equal--some of it is part of a folkloric tradition and some is part of intentional ideologies and beliefs about the nature of human beings.

 

But it cuts both ways. All good advice isn't equal either. And some of it is part of a "folkloric tradition and some is part of intentional ideologies and beliefs about the nature of human beings," as you have written. It certainly doesn't make it true. 

 

 

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Old 06-20-2011, 08:49 PM
 
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Could all you people debating/arguing/whatever just go away so this thread can get back on topic? 

 

 

I thought of more uncrunchy.

 

I yell.   A lot.  So do my kids.  I wouldn't change that.

We don't use public transportation.

I love sugar.  Oreos rock.

 

 


The bolded part is a good example of perspective and practicality!  We use public transportation because it is more convenient and ultimately less of a headache.  Ever try to park a car or pay liability insurance in Brooklyn?  I take the train/bus because it's easy, not because its crunchy.  LOL!  Btwn:  I grew up in a home-cooking traditional foods type house.  Sugar was an important food group!  G-d, I loved my mother's baking.  :)

 


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Old 06-21-2011, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The scene with the 4 year old dressed in the organic hasmat suit with his mother commiserating his distress by crying in his face along with him gets me every time. 
 

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Haven't seen it but it looks funny!



 



 

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Old 06-21-2011, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Seriously.  Perhaps its time for a S/O thread?  Just saying.
 

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Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post

Could all you people debating/arguing/whatever just go away so this thread can get back on topic? 

 

 

I thought of more uncrunchy.

 

I yell.   A lot.  So do my kids.  I wouldn't change that.

We don't use public transportation.

I love sugar.  Oreos rock.

 

 


Oh, Im a yeller.  Always have been, even pre-kid.  I was born with a megaphone implanted in my throat.  And I have passed it on to my boys.  I got it from my mother. 

 

Sometimes trying to be as AP as possbile means changing some core things about yourself, and Im really just not willing to do that.  Not because YELLING or BEING LOUD is something im proud of, but because if I start changing the little things about my personality, where does it end?  Im supposed to be teaching my children to embrace who they are and be proud and self confident (Not to be confused with bossy and arrogant). 
 

 

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Old 06-21-2011, 05:36 AM
 
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:52 AM
 
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I dont recall any AP/NFL bashfests. 

 

 

Though forgive me.  After 20 pages, perhaps I missed something. 

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