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Parenting > Children, parents, restaurants, manners, etiquette...
ChristyMarie's Avatar ChristyMarie 01:42 PM 08-25-2011

Bolding mine:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post


So, it seems that instead of answering my question with a simple, "No, we don't teach our children the rules of dining etiquette, we teach them manners to get by", it becomes a pissing contest because we can afford to eat at restaurants where these etiquette points my come in handy and you can't.  Sorry for your lot in life, but we worked our asses off to be here and I'll be damned to apologize for it.  Posters like you made this thread something that from my very first post, I said I didn't want it to be.  Go cry in a corner.

 

Ouch.  That seems a bit uncalled for and definitely not a statement Miss Manners or Emily Post would agree was polite.

 

I believe there is a difference between apologizing about where you are in life and belittling those who are not in the same position.  Or assuming they did not work as hard as you and that is why they are where they are.  Your "lot in life" is about so much more than hard work.

 

There's also a difference between quietly being able to afford things and holding that over others as proof of being a better person (or harder worker)  than they are.



seawind's Avatar seawind 01:42 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by seriosa View Post
Thank heavens in this country there is no such thing or even discussion of "child-free environments". Children are welcome everywhere, and everywhere I have been I have seen children able to behave themselves appropriately. Maybe it depends that it is so normal for children and adults to socialise in many occasions and contexts, both formal and informal. Maybe it depends that this is a very child-friendly culture, so my idea of "appropriate" would be some other cultures idea of running wild. I don't know.

 

 

 

 

thank you, for saying that. "child-free environments"? what next.

 

OP, have you frequently encountered the kind of behavior exhibited by this particular child? i would think it is not the norm, so who knows what the background is. also, am somewhat mystified as to the connection between this incident and general manners and specific etiquette? because it is safe to assume it's not often that children that age behave thus.

 

manners are important. etiquette is the production people make in order to make a statement about their "class", wealth and status wink1.gif. to each his own.

 

(reposting, quote malfunction earlier)

 


 

 


Honey693's Avatar Honey693 01:43 PM 08-25-2011

The statement about how hard work was what got you to the wealthy point in your life.  Go read the thread if you want more.

 

Again back to food.  Why is that the bread rule though?  I get that it is, but I want to know why.  Why is tearing food up more polite than biting it off?  I need to know and I'm too lazy to Google lol.


velochic's Avatar velochic 01:57 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyMarie View Post
 


And you'll notice I edited it out immediately after posting it.  You were too quick to swoop in and catch me.  Good for you.  And actually, it's what I truly feel, so perhaps it's best to be out there.  I hope you and honey have made yourselves feel better by Velo-bashing.  It seems you needed it, and I have no problems with you taking out your frustrations on me.

 


velochic's Avatar velochic 01:59 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post

The statement about how hard work was what got you to the wealthy point in your life.  Go read the thread if you want more.

 

Again back to food.  Why is that the bread rule though?  I get that it is, but I want to know why.  Why is tearing food up more polite than biting it off?  I need to know and I'm too lazy to Google lol.


I just read the thread.  I made two statements, neither of which you are referring to, and neither having anything to do with wealth or work or anything else.  Perhaps YOU should go re-read the thread.

 


Honey693's Avatar Honey693 02:06 PM 08-25-2011

You said you got where you were "working your ass off".  That statement got people on the other thread upset (not with you or your direct statement, just when some else said it) b/c a lot of life is luck (or something, I stopped reading halfway  through b/c of screaming kids).

 

So does anyone know about the bread rule?

 

And I just realised I never chimed in as to what I expect my kids to do at dinners out.  We bring a small bag with crayons, s small toy and some books for DD1.  That usually holds her together and if not we leave.  The baby is different.  I'll bring her food (b/c we go out for chicken wings a lot during football season and babies don't get chicken wings here), a soft toy and if she gets fussy I'll nurse her, which I'm guessing would be a no no at TFL.  If nursing doesn't work I walk out, walk the baby in the parking lot and DH will finish his food, pay the bill and join me in the car.

 

 


hildare's Avatar hildare 02:08 PM 08-25-2011

...that's the problem with the world today.  peoples are angry and don't read posts for comprehension.  that and they slurp their soups and butter the whole dang piece of toast.... 

everybody take a deep breath.  and just to toss this in the salad... there are people who live in big cities and don't have big kitchens, and go out to eat a whole lot more than people who live in suburbs, small towns, and rural areas. 

and i had to look up wth a french laundry was.  i figured from the name it was either a euphemism for a bordello, a place to get your stripey shirt with white cuffs cleaned, or from the context a fancy place.  must be nice!

and.. um... according to a recent poll, there seem to be, again, lots of mdc folks who claim incomes at least above 75,000 so i really don't see why anybody's up in arms about who makes what and spends it on fancy dinners. 


Honey693's Avatar Honey693 02:09 PM 08-25-2011

I had to look up TFL the first time too.  And then I didn't know what a lot of the menu was lol.  


hildare's Avatar hildare 02:12 PM 08-25-2011

i did.. we got frog legs around here too.  i imagine it's a completely different experience from the fl though.  though hilarious to think about the similarities between what locals (and my own relatives) around here eat and high french cuisine. 


velochic's Avatar velochic 02:16 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post

You said you got where you were "working your ass off".  That statement got people on the other thread upset (not with you or your direct statement, just when some else said it) b/c a lot of life is luck (or something, I stopped reading halfway  through b/c of screaming kids).

 

No, I didn't say that.  Look again.  I said that in THIS thread (in a post I actually immediately deleted and you caught).  Not in any other thread.

 

 



 


seriosa's Avatar seriosa 02:30 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

I think that what you are looking for is for someone to say that Yes, they teach their child which fork to eat with and which way to dip their soup out, but you are asking people who dont regularly take their kids out to eat at a place where there even IS a second fork. I eat almost exclusively local restaurants that serve locally grown food and hormone free meat, but they dont have the extra silverware. Little things like which way to spoon your soup out is great to know, but I think you paired it with people not paying attention to their kids while they were eating, letting kids wipe bbq sauce everywhere, and scenes from casual dining settings. If you had straight asked "Do you teach your kids fine dining etiquitte?" your response would have been different. I think its great that your kids are learning that stuff, and it may come in handy one day.
 



What I got from OP's original post was that she took an episode she witnessed and widened the scope of discussion. The wealth-or-not-wealth is rather irrelevant to the discussion. Do children have opportunities to socialise in adult contextts, and do they know how to do so? Is there a behaviour scale (like there might be a dress scale) that distinguishes what you and/or your children do in your "Date-night-worthy-nice-pants" place with respect to your "oops-I-forgot-to-defrost-dinner-lets-get-something-out" place, whatever your frame of reference for these places might be? Is etiquette just about distinguishing a fish  knife from a steak knife and knowing where to put your napkin? Elbows on the table - is that catalogued under etiquette o manners? Tipping (for adults) - etiquette or manners? What about messing up - all those posts on who should do the cleaning? Even if you use one fork or one spoon, if used correctly theres not a lot to clean up - etiquette or manners? The discussion is indeed interesting.

 

 


serenbat's Avatar serenbat 03:13 PM 08-25-2011
coffeegirl's Avatar coffeegirl 03:29 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post

So, it seems that instead of answering my question with a simple, "No, we don't teach our children the rules of dining etiquette, we teach them manners to get by", it becomes a pissing contest because we can afford to eat at restaurants where these etiquette points my come in handy and you can't.  Sorry for your lot in life, but we worked our asses off to be here and I'll be damned to apologize for it.  Posters like you made this thread something that from my very first post, I said I didn't want it to be.  Go cry in a corner.

 


I'm so glad a couple people quoted "how you really feel" about this before you back-pedaled and edited it out. I'd love to see the quote where someone- anyone- asked you to apologize for being wealthy. Or begrudged you your wealth or lack thereof. Or indicated that they were jealous of you or resentful of their own lot in life because yours is so much better. Or where anyone stated that they have issues with wealthy people in general.

 

 

 

 


Storm Bride's Avatar Storm Bride 03:53 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:

Originally Posted by velochic View Post

 

I can't imagine anyone saying that spending $400 - $500/month on eating out would put you in the "wealthy" bracket.

 


Okay - this is a joke, right? I can't even begin to imagine spending $400-$500/month on eating out. It will never happen....maybe it did in June, if we count ds1's grad banquet ($90 ticket, and ds1, dh and I were all in attendance), but I don't think so. I'd definitely think someone spending that much money on eating out fit into the "wealthy" category (or that they were on a business expense account).

 


Storm Bride's Avatar Storm Bride 03:59 PM 08-25-2011



Wow. So, people actually enjoy dining out at "nice" places, huh? I think I'm wired weird. Dining etiquette of that type just seems freaky and strange to me (not that people follow it - that it exists at all). I can't imagine being societally micromanaged to that degree, just because I wanted to eat a freaking bread roll!

 

In answer to part of the OP, I do think that instruction in formal etiquette is on the wane. I think there are probably many reasons for that. But, I think one of the key ones is that fewer and fewer people accept the idea that one's dining etiquette somehow reflects on one's value as a person. That used to be a given (my grandmother's generation certainly believed it, by and large), but it doesn't seem to be accepted as a basic premise to the same degree these days.

 


Doraline Kae's Avatar Doraline Kae 04:01 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post




What statement, "hon" (and I'm no friend, either)?  I think you have me confused with someone else.

 

Yes that is the bread rule.  And you can do whatever you want to do with it.   God, I would hate to go through life as bitter as you are.

 


 

ROTFLMAO.gif

 

 

I think we are being etiquette punked, people.

 

Velochic, much applause for the fine performance art.clap.gif


~Charlie's~Angel~'s Avatar ~Charlie's~Angel~ 04:10 PM 08-25-2011

biglaugh.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doraline Kae View Post




 

ROTFLMAO.gif

 

 

I think we are being etiquette punked, people.

 

Velochic, much applause for the fine performance art.clap.gif



 


purslaine's Avatar purslaine 04:11 PM 08-25-2011


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeegirl View Post




I'm so glad a couple people quoted "how you really feel" about this before you back-pedaled and edited it out.

 

 


For goodness sake, I have posted something in haste or anger, realised my error, and edited it out.  That is a polite and kind  thing to do. 

 

I honestly do not understand why everyone is so up in arms.  Was it an error to make a post with ties to wealth, etiquette and manners in the same thread?  Probably.  Is it worth the mean spiritedness shown on this thread?  I do not think so.

 


Honey693's Avatar Honey693 04:14 PM 08-25-2011

Wait, how am I bitter?  B/c I called her hon?  Dude, I called the cashier at Wal-Mart hon the other day.  It's reflex.  But if velochic wants to think I'm bitter, well bless her little heart.

 

And bread at fancy restaurants just seems like too much trouble.  I am weirdly fixated on bread today b/c I am craving carbs and we're out of bread at home (where I butter the entire slice and bite it).

 

 


purslaine's Avatar purslaine 04:14 PM 08-25-2011

double post


purslaine's Avatar purslaine 04:17 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Ok.  I am not wealthy.  I am pretty middling according to all stats.   I never claim poverty through.  I spend 400$ a month eating out.  There are 5 of us.  One meal out per week at an Outback type place is about 75$ after tip, throw in a pizza order and I am at 100$ per week. 

 

The above is OT - but people can be "not wealthy"  and spend money on restaurants.  Just for all the folks who are exclaiming over the 400$ winky.gif



 


Storm Bride's Avatar Storm Bride 04:21 PM 08-25-2011

I'm not exclaiming over the $400, as such. I'm exclaiming over the "can't imagine anyone saying" that spending that much makes someone wealthy.

 

We're not in poverty. We're not wealthy (dh's income would probably qualify us as wealthy in some places, but not around here), either. And, I honestly can't even imagine spending $400-$500/month on eating out. I've known a few people who did spend that much, and they were, without exception, either wealthy or on business expense accounts (oh - and two cases of people racking up debt that they'll never, ever be able to pay, but that's another category, imo).

 

ETA: I"m not saying you have to be wealthy to spend that much. I'm saying that I find it really strange to suggest that it's somehow unimaginable that someone would equate that much money on eating out with wealth.


~Charlie's~Angel~'s Avatar ~Charlie's~Angel~ 04:26 PM 08-25-2011


I called the cashier at wegmans Dear.  "thank you, dear"  Also a reflex.  Something is giving me the impression we are of the young and disrespectful crowd or something.  winky.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post

Wait, how am I bitter?  B/c I called her hon?  Dude, I called the cashier at Wal-Mart hon the other day.  It's reflex.  But if velochic wants to think I'm bitter, well bless her little heart.

 

And bread at fancy restaurants just seems like too much trouble.  I am weirdly fixated on bread today b/c I am craving carbs and we're out of bread at home (where I butter the entire slice and bite it).

 

 



 


meemee's Avatar meemee 04:26 PM 08-25-2011

by the way in general terms - at least that is the statistics out there - that ones definition of wealthy is anyone who makes double their income. this is in general term.


Storm Bride's Avatar Storm Bride 04:42 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Charlie's~Angel~ View Post


I called the cashier at wegmans Dear.  "thank you, dear"  Also a reflex.  Something is giving me the impression we are of the young and disrespectful crowd or something.  winky.gif
 

 


Actually, I tend to associate "dear" and "hon" and such with older people, not younger ones. It grates on me, but I've learned to just ignore it, because the people saying it rarely mean anything by it. I think it's a regional thing.

 


ChristyMarie's Avatar ChristyMarie 04:54 PM 08-25-2011

On the bread thing....

 

I've never understood the why of that particular *rule* but I will say this, by breaking it off and eating it in one bite pieces you don't ruin your lipstick.  Really, it works.  LOL.

 

I don't think I have anything else to add beyond that shallow and vain observation at this point.  ;)


choli's Avatar choli 05:53 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

by the way in general terms - at least that is the statistics out there - that ones definition of wealthy is anyone who makes double their income. this is in general term.


Probably very true. Or at least double the income living in the same COL area.
 

 


serenbat's Avatar serenbat 06:00 PM 08-25-2011

 

 

Quote:
Wow. So, people actually enjoy dining out at "nice" places, huh? 

 

yes

 

I don't want to get into this whole thread but people do use these manner like those that I posted, there are times when it does matter--if you should ever need to deal with others that were raised this way, a situation where you need to have a formal dinner for a business and you are dealing with say someone from outside the us (JUST AN EXAMPLE) having certain manners can mean a deal breaker-others do reflect on manners IRL-some don't 

 

not getting into judgement here-just stating it does happen


Mamja's Avatar Mamja 06:00 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyMarie View Post

On the bread thing....

 

I've never understood the why of that particular *rule* but I will say this, by breaking it off and eating it in one bite pieces you don't ruin your lipstick.  Really, it works.  LOL.

 

I don't think I have anything else to add beyond that shallow and vain observation at this point.  ;)

 

In the same vein, I would imagine it's because nobody wants to think about your saliva, germs, food detritus, and yes, lipstick on the bread if you took a bite then put the rest down.
 

 


Storm Bride's Avatar Storm Bride 06:11 PM 08-25-2011


Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

 

 

yes

 

I don't want to get into this whole thread but people do use these manner like those that I posted, there are times when it does matter--if you should ever need to deal with others that were raised this way, a situation where you need to have a formal dinner for a business and you are dealing with say someone from outside the us (JUST AN EXAMPLE) having certain manners can mean a deal breaker-others do reflect on manners IRL-some don't 

 

not getting into judgement here-just stating it does happen


Oh, I get that. I avoid situations where it matters like the plague. I'm just surprised that people actually find dining out by these "rules" to be an enjoyable experience, is all. Styles differ. If I do find myself in such a situation, I'll be very grateful when it's over.

 


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