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#181 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 02:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by velochic View Post



 

You may think it's little more than show, but I don't.  It has nothing to do with judging, it simply is something you are teaching your child or not.  And asking the question, "Do you teach this to your child" is not judging.  It's a question.  The problem with this thread is people are acting like they're being judged and it's really just a simple question that got blown out of proportion. 
 

 


I suspect one of the reasons it got blown out or proportion is that basic courtesy for others (eg. not smearing BBQ sauce all over the seats!) was conflated with fine dining etiquette, right from the first post. I didn't really take it that way, but I could easily see your first post being read as though people who don't teach their kids to spoon soup away from themselves, "properly" place their napkin, etc. are on the same level as those who don't teach their children to keep their voices down, leave other diners in peace, etc.

 

Veering a little...the napkin thing has always kind of bugged me. I'm a DD/DDD cup. I think I've spilled food on my pants about 2-3 times in my entire adult life, including barbecues and such. I used to spill food on my shirt about every other meal. If I tucked my napkin into the top of my shirt/blouse/dress/whatever, people would think I was a barbarian, but putting it on my lap, where I'd be protecting precisely nothing is "proper". It makes no sense to me. That said...my napkin stays beside my plate, unless I need it. I see it as a tool, not a prop.

 

 

 

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#182 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 02:32 PM
 
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I do tend to put my napkin in my lap, b/c it's a handy place for me, and it eliminates the chance of wiping something on my pants. 

 

I don't, however, insist that my kids do so (though I guess it was drilled into me as a kid).  But if we are somewhere with cloth napkins, I might encourage and model it.  The kids then might for part of the meal, and that's perfectly fine with me... as long as it doesn't end up on the floor.


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#183 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 03:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by velochic View Post



 

You may think it's little more than show, but I don't.  It has nothing to do with judging, it simply is something you are teaching your child or not.  And asking the question, "Do you teach this to your child" is not judging.  It's a question.  The problem with this thread is people are acting like they're being judged and it's really just a simple question that got blown out of proportion.  If you don't teach it, then just say so.  You don't have to qualify it.  Nor should I have to qualify why I *do* teach it.  Nobody said they were appalled that another spooned their soup in the wrong direction or even that they are observing whether one does it or not.  The question was whether or not these finer points of etiquette (that are not used very often) are taught to children today.  That's it.  Nothing more.
 

 


When I just want yes or no answers without people bothering to share their opinion about WHY they feel the way they do, I just create a poll. Click yes or no. No response needed. Your OP and several posts afterwards didnt communicate that you were not interested in hearing other people's opinions about this issue.
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#184 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 03:17 PM
 
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Veering a little...the napkin thing has always kind of bugged me. I'm a DD/DDD cup. I think I've spilled food on my pants about 2-3 times in my entire adult life, including barbecues and such. I used to spill food on my shirt about every other meal. If I tucked my napkin into the top of my shirt/blouse/dress/whatever, people would think I was a barbarian, but putting it on my lap, where I'd be protecting precisely nothing is "proper". It makes no sense to me. That said...my napkin stays beside my plate, unless I need it. I see it as a tool, not a prop.

 

 

 



Now, I do keep my napkin in my lap, but I am MUCH more likely to actually make good use of it if it had been tucked into my shirt collar.  The built in crumbcatchers lead me to fear wearing a white shirt out to a meal... Hmmmmm...  I am seemingly incapable of not spilling something on my shirt, even if I do spoon my soup away from myself. 

 

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#185 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 04:15 PM
 
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Now, I do keep my napkin in my lap, but I am MUCH more likely to actually make good use of it if it had been tucked into my shirt collar.  The built in crumbcatchers lead me to fear wearing a white shirt out to a meal... Hmmmmm...  I am seemingly incapable of not spilling something on my shirt, even if I do spoon my soup away from myself. 

 

 

I don't wear white to a meal. I actually try for some kind of pattern on top, because patterns tend to show stains less vividly than solid colours do. :o


 

 


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#186 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 05:16 PM
 
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Well, that doesn't make sense.  Especially as coming from a brand new member speaking about someone who has been here for 10 years.  I guess it was meant to be trouble-making and stir things up.  Got it.

 

For others, I appreciate some of the more pleasant discussion.  It really was something I was thinking about and wondering about and I appreciated the honest and polite replies.  I now see that we are wealthy freaks (eyesroll.gif) because we're an older, hard-working, established couple who was raised with impeccable table manners (and that because we're not both American and are trying to raise dd multiculturaly, we're doing her a disservice), can afford to occasionally eat at upscale restaurants (because it's one of our only forms of entertainment as a family), and avoid processed freeze-n-fry foods at chain restaurants... and that we will be scorned and made fun of as we break our bread into pieces and place our napkins on our laps.  I'm good with that.  I'd rather be different than to be mainstream. Got my answer and I am... outta here.

I didn't see any posts referring to prejudice against your nationality or the ones that talked about making fun of you as you use your napkin, were they the ones that were deleted or are you being melodramatic because you feel like you are being attacked for expecting different manners than other people?  I think the thread was doing wonderfully until you started attacking people for their manners and telling them they wouldn't be welcome at the places you eat at.  Then it started going downhill fast.

 

I hope another thread opens, after the anger surrounding this one has died out, about actual manners and the use of them without turning into a class war, a fight about who has better manners, or one man show aimed at pushing one set way of being down other people's throats.  The different ideas presented in this thread about manners has been very interesting, especially the idea that using a napkin instead of clothes is laughable. 

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#187 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 05:51 PM
 
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I am still trying to wrap my head around the soup thing... If you spoon the soup away from you, wouldn't it make it more likely that you'd splash other people (or their food)????

Anyway, no, I don't teach my DS the 'finer points of etiquette' because it's just something so outside the realm of my life experience... I can't imagine being anywhere where etiquette would matter. TBH, I'm still trying to figure out how to get my 2.5yo to keep his food on the table. If he masters that, I'll be pretty happy, there isn't much else I'd care to teach him. I don't believe in not eating with your hands, or chewing with your mouth closed, or keeping your elbows off the table... so anything beyond that just isn't important to me either.

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#188 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 06:21 PM
 
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I am still trying to wrap my head around the soup thing... If you spoon the soup away from you, wouldn't it make it more likely that you'd splash other people (or their food)????

Anyway, no, I don't teach my DS the 'finer points of etiquette' because it's just something so outside the realm of my life experience... I can't imagine being anywhere where etiquette would matter. TBH, I'm still trying to figure out how to get my 2.5yo to keep his food on the table. If he masters that, I'll be pretty happy, there isn't much else I'd care to teach him. I don't believe in not eating with your hands, or chewing with your mouth closed, or keeping your elbows off the table... so anything beyond that just isn't important to me either.


It is actually quite simple but probably hard to visualize.  First, hold the spoon so it is parallel to you/the edge of the table.  Slightly dip the furthest edge of the spoon into the soup.  Lift it up and pause so any drips can fall off.  Your spoon will not be full, about half or so.  You then, keeping the spoon parallel, sip delicately from the side of the spoon, not from the tip.

 

I know, sounds crazy but is actually very simple to do.

 

So far my son knows what a soup spoon is but he really doesn't like soup (!??!?!?!?) yet so this is a non issue for us as far as the teaching of manners.

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#189 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 07:50 PM
 
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the reason for the bread rule is so that you do not have to get your lips greasy before you touch them to the wine glass.  (or water glass if that's how you roll) by buttering only what you can pop into your mouth you avoid that scenario. 

 

fancy people really get repulsed by finger and lip prints on the glass and floating oil on the wines, apparently, throughout history, or at least where butter and bread and wines coexist.

 

do i get a prize?  i thinks somebody needs to take me and the cracker throwing toddler to dinners.  somewhere fancy.



Isn't the greesy lips issue the reason we have napkins?

 


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#190 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 08:11 PM
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Isn't the greesy lips issue the reason we have napkins?

 



Apparently not. The napkin is to catch the food you drop in your lap. Or the napkin just sits there and looks pretty if your food drops in your cleavage.

 

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#191 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 08:16 PM
 
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Apparently not. The napkin is to catch the food you drop in your lap. Or the napkin just sits there and looks pretty if your food drops in your cleavage.

 

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Wow - I never thought of that. I could just wear really low cut blouses when I go out to eat, and then the food will land in my bra, instead of wrecking all my tops...

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#192 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 08:22 PM
 
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All this talk of napkin use is giving me a very uncomfortable flashback to a summer with my grandparents when I was 7 years old.

 

As the high light of my visit that summer, my grandparents bought tickets to a Broadway musical and took my sister and I  out to a "fancy" restaurant. All I remember of the "fancy" was that it was a place that had white table clothes and everyone was dressed up. I have no memory of the meal, and knowing my grandparents I'm sure my sister and I had to order something from the kiddy menu, if there was one.

 

For the 2 weeks leading up to this night on the town my grandparents drilled us on proper etiquette. They would say #1, #2, #3 and that was code for some thing we were suppose to do. #1 was put your napkin on your lap. I don't remember #2 and #3. Even at 7 years old, I was MORTIFIED that my grandparents felt that I did not know to do this, that they assumed my parents did not teach it to us, and that they had to give me a code to make me do it in public. What was wrong with whispering a reminder if it was necessary?

 

I told my mother about all this and it became a bit of a family joke. To this day saying #1 in the right moment will crack us all up.

 

 

FWIW, when eating some place casual with paper napkins, I solve the fly away problem by tucking the napkin under my thigh. I'm pretty sure that's not classy, but it's better than loosing a napkin every few minutes. Micky D's napkins and Taco bell napkins are always still in the bag, or crumpled up after being used and stuffed into an empty fry box or something like that, we rarely eat in at fast food places.


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#193 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 08:30 PM
 
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Wow - I never thought of that. I could just wear really low cut blouses when I go out to eat, and then the food will land in my bra, instead of wrecking all my tops...


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#194 of 200 Old 08-26-2011, 08:36 PM
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Wow - I never thought of that. I could just wear really low cut blouses when I go out to eat, and then the food will land in my bra, instead of wrecking all my tops...



Oh, yeah....my mom's been doing that for years! The crumbs aren't comfy, from what I gather, but hey....you have to pay a price for beauty!



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FWIW, when eating some place casual with paper napkins, I solve the fly away problem by tucking the napkin under my thigh. I'm pretty sure that's not classy, but it's better than loosing a napkin every few minutes.


Meh. I keep paper napkins on the table and just make sure the food goes in my mouth. Nine times out of 10, I'm wearing jeans, anyway. It all comes out in the wash. lips.gif

 

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#195 of 200 Old 08-27-2011, 02:00 PM
 
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For goodness sake, I have posted something in haste or anger, realised my error, and edited it out.  That is a polite and kind  thing to do. 

 

I honestly do not understand why everyone is so up in arms.  Was it an error to make a post with ties to wealth, etiquette and manners in the same thread?  Probably.  Is it worth the mean spiritedness shown on this thread?  I do not think so.

 

 

How is it mean-spirited to respond to someone's posts with our own opinions? Especially if OTHER people (OP included) are actually getting up in arms about it. I thought this was a discussion board. We were discussing the topic and the things that the OP has said. But....whatever.
 

 


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#196 of 200 Old 08-27-2011, 03:04 PM
 
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Those scrawny paper napkins at fast food places and such would just blow off my lap. I simply can't imagine they would be very effective in your lap, that's all. I do put linen napkins in my lap when I eat somewhere that uses them.


I never said you have to qualify it. I'm simply asking what the purpose is of dining etiquette, and why do you think it's important to teach it? You mentioned earlier that you have to know these things in certain situations. Is it because in certain situations, people are judging? Watching? Observing and sizing you up?

 

This isn't an attack. This is asking you to consider WHY it's important to know where to place your napkin when leaving the table, or which fork to use for creme brulee. If it isn't some sort of classism, I'd like to know what it is.

 

Neither I nor my children have EVER been in a situation where those things are important, so no, they haven't been taught those "finer points" of etiquette. We jes' common folk. Personally, I don't think it takes a lifetime to learn those things if it becomes necessary to know them. I guess my kids will be smart enough to view a tutorial if they are ever invited to the White House.



LOL. I would insert the laughing smiley but I'm lazy and on my phone. ITA with all of the above. I've never thought to spoon my soup away from myself, it seems counter productive if you ask me. Is it rude if you tip the bowl up into the air so you get every drop? eat.gif

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#197 of 200 Old 08-27-2011, 03:12 PM
 
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Also, as far as my children...if I can keep them seated it's a MIRACLE.

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#198 of 200 Old 08-27-2011, 05:30 PM
 
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LOL. I would insert the laughing smiley but I'm lazy and on my phone. ITA with all of the above. I've never thought to spoon my soup away from myself, it seems counter productive if you ask me. Is it rude if you tip the bowl up into the air so you get every drop? eat.gif


I think that depends... are you talking about tipping the bowl on the table to pool the soup in the corner so you can pick it up with the spoon, or lifting the bowl to your lips and tipping it to drink from it like a cup?

 


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#199 of 200 Old 08-27-2011, 05:36 PM
 
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Wow - I never thought of that. I could just wear really low cut blouses when I go out to eat, and then the food will land in my bra, instead of wrecking all my tops...



I've done that- accidentally.  Sadly, my bras cost more than my shirts.  I can't decide which to sacrifice. :P

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#200 of 200 Old 08-28-2011, 01:50 PM
 
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I've done that- accidentally.  Sadly, my bras cost more than my shirts.  I can't decide which to sacrifice. :P


My bras cost more than my shirts, too...but I can still wear a bra if it has some stains. That's not always true of a shirt.

 


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