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Old 09-26-2011, 12:41 PM
 
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Also, I think that maybe some of you don't encounter this concept in the way I have....this phrase "keep your legs closed"  - is used all around me, all the time. I do not hang around hideous, mean people, either. Maybe it's a cultural thing? Anyway, it really bothers me and I don't care for it, because it's directed at small children and the tone is very yucky (like a PP upthread said, it sounds very "don't be a tramp") and I don't feel it is appropriate and it IS shaming.

 

I live in the city and take public transportation almost every day and frequently hear little girls, some as young as toddler age, being admonished to keep their legs together and having their dresses tugged down, sometimes just to hide a diaper.

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Old 09-26-2011, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by babygirlie View Post

Hmm I know that in Europ if your feet are on the chair at a Mcdonalds you would be kicked OUT and never let in. I wonder what country loves seeing peoples chewed food or underpants just sagging out? In Africa they wear very long skirts so even if your legs were open you wouldn't see anything and they are very polite when eating even if they have to share bowls etc.

 

chewing your cud is derogatory? Because it refers to cows? I don't think it's a cow thing but how a cow eats. It's not attractive.. very drooling and around around around. lol

 

I saw a guy blow a huge snot out of his nose as he was selling flowers by the roadside. Yeah I wouldn't buy water in the desert from that guy. I think you want people to percieve you as educated and I'm sorry but that does include ettiquette.

I agree completely with the piece about etiquette, which is why, I think, I initially started a thread on this topic. My love of etiquette and my love of my daughter being wild and free and completely unhindered by the laws of social correctness (at least at age three)...are conflicting. I don't believe in rudeness...but I don't know where, when it comes to etiquette, my lines are drawn in the sand. I think I prefer to be the parent I want to be...even when it sets off my Miss Manners red flags, as opposed to the constant corrector of my childrens behaviors.

 

I would also say, that somewhere between rudeness and social correctness lies the underbelly of society, patriarchy and all it's trappings, and the desire on the part of many women to try and let their kids be who they are, how they are, without impeding on their beautiful growth and "self-ness" with remarks and judgements about politeness and sitting the right way.

 

I am genuinely asking the questions I pose, I really wonder about how I'm going to feel as DD gets older. I don't want her to be seen as rude. I don't want to have children who are regarded as heathens. But I also don't want to burden my babies with the enormous load of caring what other people think, how society is judging them, from too early an age.

 

There is plenty of time in life, to sit around and wonder if you're "doing it right"...if other people think well of you....there is only one special time in life ly when you are so pure and untouched my negative ideas that you really believe that you're completely great, all the time, and that everyone in the world is smiling at you.
 

 


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Old 09-26-2011, 06:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by babygirlie View Post

Hmm I know that in Europ if your feet are on the chair at a Mcdonalds you would be kicked OUT and never let in. I wonder what country loves seeing peoples chewed food or underpants just sagging out? In Africa they wear very long skirts so even if your legs were open you wouldn't see anything and they are very polite when eating even if they have to share bowls etc.

 

My daughters wear underwear, so if they're sitting with their legs open (which they don't - but dd1 does play on monkeybars and such), you can't see anything, anyway. That's part of why we wear underwear, imo. I find the wear shorts/leggings over your undies argument bizarre. The whole thing is that underwear goes under your clothes, and that's why it's called underwear - but if a girl has shorts on over her undies, then her shorts are also underwear. It's just such arbitrary weirdness.

 

Polite when eating, "even" if they have to share bowls, etc. Sharing bowls can be part of being polite, which I think was part of the point the other poster was making. Manners vary and what's polite in one place isn't necessarily polite somewhere else. And, I don't really care if people chew with their mouths open (although I have taught my kids the "rules"). If it's really gross, I just don't look. And, sometimes, it's really hard not to do so (bad nasal congestion, etc.).

 

chewing your cud is derogatory? Because it refers to cows? I don't think it's a cow thing but how a cow eats. It's not attractive.. very drooling and around around around. lol

 

Yes. It's derogatory. Humans don't have cud, and don't chew cud, and referring to a person "chewing their cud" is pretty much implying that said person is a cow.

 

I saw a guy blow a huge snot out of his nose as he was selling flowers by the roadside. Yeah I wouldn't buy water in the desert from that guy. I think you want people to percieve you as educated and I'm sorry but that does include ettiquette.


Which etiquette? Etiquette isn't a universal rule book. It doesn't really matter, anyway. I can't even imagine caring if people perceive me as being educated or not. Why on earth would I care? (FWIW, I have a year of vocational community college, a correspondence diploma in graphic design and a few programming classes at a technical institute - all completed over a decade and a half ago - and no other post-secondary education at all. At various times in my life, I've been mistaken for a high school dropout and a degree holder. I don't care in the slightest, either way.)


And, none of this, imo, has any bearing on whether or not a young child, who happens to be female, should be required to wear shorts under her dress, in case she goes upside down on playground equipment. A child's underwear (or diaper or pull-up or whatever) is covering the genital area, and the only thing anyone is going to see under the dress that's covering part of her body is another piece of clothing that's also covering part of her body.

 


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Old 10-04-2011, 01:39 AM
 
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I tell my daughter that she shouldn't be showing of her vagina to everyone because it's a very private and special part.  I also tell her it's not ladylike to let everyone see her private parts.  It's a cliched saying but still rings true.

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Old 10-04-2011, 07:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AverysMomma View Post

I am genuinely asking the questions I pose, I really wonder about how I'm going to feel as DD gets older. I don't want her to be seen as rude. I don't want to have children who are regarded as heathens. But I also don't want to burden my babies with the enormous load of caring what other people think, how society is judging them, from too early an age.

 


Caring what other people think is not all bad. It's one of those two sided coins. I'm guessing that almost all of us here on MDC hope for our children to be thoughtful and considerate of other people. Of course, we don't want them to be wrapped up in a keeping up with the Joneses mentality either. People can go too far both ways — becoming a doormat and letting individuals, society, and corporations tell them what to think/do/buy/wear and being sucked into the borg so to speak, but people can also be too self-absorbed and not care what anyone else thinks and couch that all in terms of being true to themselves and following their bliss, who-gives-a-crap-about-other-people. So while we don't want to go down the road of caring so much about what other people think that we don't let our kids be themselves, we also do want to help our kids learn where they fit in the world and part of that is things like saying "please" and "thank you" and, after a some indeterminate age, not showing your underwear to the world.

 

I doubt if any of us grown moms would run around in our skivvies, but nobody thinks twice about a toddler playing in nothing but a diaper in the hot summer. Sometime along the way  we decide not to show our undies to everyone. It's different for everyone and every family, but I doubt you're going to find many 8 yr old girls who want other people to see their undies. I know my 10 yr old and almost 8 yr old would be mortified. 

 

As far as caring what other people think and feeling like society is judging them, if your child is little (3?) I doubt that many people would really care. I certainly wouldn't, but in your town/area of the country YMMV. At some point, though, you may want to protect your child from embarrassment by encouraging a little more discretion, either by some bike shorts under her dress, or by reminding her to not show her undies, keep her legs closed, "be ladylike" (not my choice of words), etc. I think the bike shorts are easier! It's pretty easy to imagine a scenario where a girl (or boy) is playing on a playground and other kids might make fun of her (or him) if they can see her underwear. Now, I gotta tell you many kids go through a phase where they want to show their underwear or butt and think it's absolutely hilarious. (And really a little kid butt is pretty darn cute and funny, too.) When my dd2 was in K, there was a big thing about underwear! But at some point most kids (and adults) would be really embarrassed by other people seeing their unders. My dd2 is in second grade now, and would absolutely die of embarrassment if someone saw her underwear. She locks her door for privacy when she gets dressed at home! (Big sister, on the other hand, still leaves the bathroom door wide open when she's on the toilet). 

 

Anyway, I'm rambling, but I think the larger issue here is helping kids be themselves while still getting along in society. I have always encouraged my kids to let their opinions and feelings be known, but I do often ask them to rephrase. Instead of "No, broccoli is gross! I hate that!" rephrase as "No thanks. I don't really like broccoli." I don't want to send them the message that they need to suck it up and do it anyway even if they don't like it (although occasionally they do need to hear that, too), but the main idea I try to impart is for them to get their message across in a way that does take other people's feelings into consideration, but doesn't squelch their own feelings. IMO, shorts under a dress are an easy way to do that, but at 3 I probably wouldn't worry about it too much. If other people are going to be offended by seeing a child's underwear or if the child is going to be embarrassed and made fun of, then I think shorts are a lot easier compromise and allow her to still get her feelings (of playful freedom) across (turning somersaults, playing on the jungle gym, etc) but in a way that takes others into consideration (so they're less likely to make fun of her, or it's less likely they might be embarrassed). I agree that I don't think wearing shorts under a dress is necessary at all, but because I want to save my girls a tricky situation later on I do sometimes suggest it, although at their current ages they usually think of it themselves or ask me if I think they need to wear shorts. In turn I ask them to think about what they'll be doing and if they think they will want them. Sometimes the answer is "no" (we're going out to eat and they're not likely to be upside down) and sometimes the answer is yes (they're going the playground or dance class and will be doing all sorts of things). This kind of situation comes up over and over and over again in parenting and in our lives as grown ups. We do need to think about others and be considerate of the way others feel, but not at the expense of our own feelings and being true to ourselves. 

 


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Old 11-20-2011, 06:09 PM
 
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Actually I hate it when a guy has his legs so sprawled it takes up three seats.. one seat on each side. I find it rude and gross looking. If my son didn't know how to sit without holding his legs together and letting his hand rest on his penis I would also tell him to behave like a gentleman. He won't be taken seriously out in the world behaving like that like it or not. I actually still have vivid  memories of a bf of my mothers doing that on that couch in his shorts and me being a child on the floor could see EVERYTHING (and I think he wanted me to personally). It's lude. And if my son wanted to wear a skirt yes.. I would tell him the same thing if we were in public.. just me and him I probably wouldn't care too much unless I k new the behavior would bleed out at a Christmas pageant or whatever. Good habits start early.

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