Is this something you teach your girls? I have a three year old DD and I realized, after reading another thread that touched on the subject, that this has never come up for us.
To me, when I say it in my head, it sounds like "hide your vagina, it is nasty and/or offensive to others!" - but at the same time, were I to wear a dress or skirt that was short enough that you could see my underwear, I would definitely make sure to close my legs at the ankles (though, most of my skirts/dresses fall below the knee....I think I still do cross my ankles when I sit, though).
Anyway, I am a very "pro-gina" lady and I love my vagina(I'm not, like, obsessed with it or anything, I just think it rocks!). My DD loves her vagina, too, and is not ashamed of it at all - she doesn't know that vagina shame exists for anyone. I consider it my gift to her as a mother, that I have shielded her from our cultures vagina shaming ways until she is old enough to internalize the existence of this shaming in a healthy way...but *would* I feel compelled to tell her to be more modest if we were in public and she was wearing one of her pretty dresses and had her legs hanging open and people could see her underoos? I don't know!?
Do you instruct your DD to keep her legs closed/crossed? If so, why? If not, why?
Me and DH ...lovin' DD (6/08) and DS (11/09) Plus NEW BABY!! DD (UC-5/12) We Water Birth/Homebirth/No Vax or Circ/BF/BW/Country Livin'!
It is less of an issue now, but when she was younger we would tell dd (now 6) to wear shorts/leggings under skirts because she was usually sitting with her legs up in the air or tumbling, so her skirt was always up around her head. As long as she is covered, she can do what she likes, unless there is a safety/politeness issue (i.e. church, dinner table, etc) Even then it is just a request to sit in the chair properly, no mention of crossed/closed legs, just bottom and legs down.
We consider the private areas just that, private. It is not a girl vs boy thing, because we don't let ds walk around with his underwear hanging out either.
Okay, disclosure: I don't have children, so take my opinion with that in mind.
I am very "pro-gina" (I gotta use that phrase more) also and think that if I had a daughter I would do my best to raise her without vulva/vagine shame (I mean I have a beautiful painting of a vulva hanging in the living room). Once she was old enough, however, to have a conversation about what society considers appropriate behavior and why it is considered appropriate I would want to explain to her why some people think she should sit with her legs closed when she wears a dress. I wouldn't force her to sit like that but I would want her to understand what other people might expect knowing that she has my full support to sit in whatever way is most comfortable to her.
I don't think I could ever tell her that she must sit with her legs closed, however, because to me that also feels like promoting a hide vaginas because they are filthy attitude. There are also numerous studies that show that at young ages girls are often instructed to police their bodies more than boys and therefore they learn to take up less space, be less free with movement, and in general just have more restrictions on behavior. That is not something I would want my daughter to learn (and also not something I would want to teach a son to expect of women).
I have a hard time picturing myself dressing a future DD in dresses though... for some reason I feel like I'd just use the same clothes DS wears. Dresses just seem so hard to play in and girls' bathing suits look so skimpy I'd be afraid she'd get burned... so I guess I will have a DD that looks like a boy (which only makes sense since everyone thinks my DS is a girl )
My DD loves dresses, and they are rather short, since she can move much better. She wears just shortie-like underwear beneath it. More because she just prefers shorty like underwear, anyway :) I don´t consider seeing underwear (of a child) as being offensive, it´s not much difference to a bathing suit, anyway.
I always thought my girl will not like dresses, I am not a very girlie person. But DD is. She has everything in pink, loves dresses and Hell*Kitty :)
Trin with DH , DD(7) and DS(5) , DD(2) , ,
I am not regularly online at the moment due to the above ...
yeah... i love vaginas, people. however, i don't dress my kid in anything she can't run/trip/fall/climb things in. until/unless she reaches a point where she demands otherwise, i just don't get that.
my parents sent me to a religious elementary school at which dresses/skirts of knee length or greater were required, and though i personally prefer dresses/skirts now as an adult, as a kid, i felt this was the most restrictive thing ever.
i often wonder why skirts for kids even exist, and i think sometimes it IS to restrict mobility/activity to confine girls to a particular set of expectations. girls are often expected/pushed to be calm and quiet, while activity, roughhousing, and getting dirty are what's expected of boys-- at least from what i see, this seems to be what lots of people think. i think that clothing reinforces that in many cases.
eta: i don't think pro-gina has anything to do with kids or having them sit a particular way-- it's not their little vaggies they're showing people, it's their underpants.
Is it getting lonely in the echo chamber yet?
My 3yo DD wears skirts as a rule, because they're more comfortable for her. She dislikes any pants except for leggings or very loose drawstring pants because they are constricting. She's not a girly girl at all, she just likes the feeling of dresses.
At her preschool, they ask that the girls wear shorts under their dresses to avoid anyone being uncomfortable and to avoid any girls not being able to run/jump/crawl/tumble. It also prevents that whole discussion, "close your legs".
Interesting - it never occurred to me it was teaching shame of the vagina or protecting others from being offended. Like a pp said privates should be private on girls AND boys & I would be just as likely to correct ds if he was sitting/tumbling/dressing in such a way that others were seeing his parts. The ways boys are dressed generally doesn't create this situation as often though.
Surviving sleep deprivation one day at a time with dd (Oct '11) & ds (Oct '08).
Hahaha, let me clarify a few things:
DD is allowed to dress herself...she wears a lot of "boys clothes" because I like to be able to recycle her things with her DS, who is 16 months younger. So, he ends up wearing a lot of things that some people might "double take" and she wears a lot of things that look like, by "societies" standards, may have been made for a boy. They both wear pretty colors and good quality stuff that is comfortable and easy to wash, etc, so I don't really care what someone else thinks.
Lately, DD has been dressing herself more and more..she loves picking outfits and wears a lot of "boyish" gear because we live in the middle of the woods and the two of them are outside all. day. long and dresses aren't exactly practical for a lot of what she does...but she's also a NUT about dancing and LOVES her little twirly, brightly colored skirts.
Some of the skirts have built in shorts...but some don't, because I'm not going to say "no, you can't wear that" because it has no shorts underneath it and while I may SUGGEST leggings or something like that, well, if she doesn't want to, I'm not going to tell her she has to just so her underwear don't show if she twirls.
Hildare: I would respectfully disagree with you. People all around me tell their little girls "cross your legs, cross em" - all the time. It's not because they don't want people to see their little girls underwear...it's because under the underwear, there is a vagina lurking. I see people telling their little girls to close their legs even when they are wearing pants....in our society, it is considered rude and inappropriate for a woman to sit with her legs splayed. Sitting up straight, with your knees closed and her hands placed in her lap...this is how a young lady or woman is "supposed" to sit. I've never once in my life heard anyone tell a little boy to close his legs. Our society sees something inherently "yucky" or "indecent" in female sex/sex organ/etc and it's been that way for a long time.
My whole reason for asking, is because I don't know where my own deeply engrained "vagina issues" end and my desire to see my DD behave in a way that makes her "acceptable" begins...and how much right I have to impose that on her to begin with.
I love my female body...I love the parts of me that are naturally hairy and the parts which are naturally smooth and hairless...I am a sexual being and that doesn't make me a sl*t. I don't feel that the way I sit should be a clue to someone about my sexual identity or whether or not I'm a "fast ticket" - but in society, it does.
I don't know. There is a part of me that melts inside with pride and love when I see my girl sitting nicely somewhere, looking like a "proper" young lady...and all of that....and there is a part of me that feels something odd and "weird" when I see her carefree, legs splayed, wild and free. But when I get that weird feeling and question it...it goes away and is replaced by joy and thankfulness at the thought that my DD can sit, stand play, whatever...in a way that feel natural and comfortable to her.
Me and DH ...lovin' DD (6/08) and DS (11/09) Plus NEW BABY!! DD (UC-5/12) We Water Birth/Homebirth/No Vax or Circ/BF/BW/Country Livin'!
That being said, I wear skirts almost everyday. I garden in them, bend over and pick stuff up in them, and typically sit with my legs closed because its more comfortable.
Holly and David
Adaline (3/20/10), and Charlie (1/26/12- 4/10/12) and our identical twins Callie and Wendy (01/04/13)
When my DD was little I did not really worry about if her undies were visible or not. As she got older she decided SHE did not want people to see her underwear. I think she was 3ish. So all I had to do was whisper to her, "Tuck your skirt down, I can she your underpants." if she was sitting legs up and she would arrange herself. I never made a big deal about it. At home I would never worry about it. I certainly never said anything about keeping her legs together.
I am not a mom that worries about what thoughts others are having if they should get a peek at her undies while she's playing. I think this has a lot to do with my relaxed attitude. It seems like most other moms I've been social with are worried about it so they keep their little girls undies covered up with shorts under the skirt.
One happy momma to a very spirited little girl , her tough little brother , and a happy little suprise late April 2012 . Wife to an overworked and under paid husband .
I've got a girl, and have been 'called out' by busybodies who were upset that they could see dd's underwear. I'm baffled, because isn't the whole point of underwear to cover up your private parts?! So you want my child to put on something else over the clothing that covers up her vagina-vulva-labia-anus? OK. Since when did UNDERWEAR become something to worry about?
I didn't enforce that with dd. But at some point in time (age 5-6), other kids started to comment that they could see her underwear, and she chose to put on shorts underneath her dresses when she wore them.
I have an 11 year old dd who likes to wear dresses and skirts sometimes.
I don't tell her to sit still and cross her legs with her hands in her lap ever.
I don't think I've ever told her a behavior is lady-like or isn't lady-like.
I don't tell her to wear shorts under skirts in case her skirt twirls up in a breeze or something.
I do tell her when she is squatting on the floor with her skirt hiked up so her underwear is on full view that if that is the way she wants to sit/move then she should change to pants or shorts. If it is important to her to wear the skirt or dress then she changes her position. It isn't about being proud or ashamed of her body parts. The earth won't crumble if her underwear shows but I just don't feel it is good mannered/appropriate/nice/classy to show undergarments in public for either gender and that is what I am trying to convey to her.
I don't care how dd sits in pants- except keeping her feet down on the floor while at the table.
Kim ~mom to one awesome dd (12)
My DD loves dresses because they stay on her body. (She has no hips, butt, stomach. She has to spend all her time hitching up pants - or holding them up while she plays. Too much trouble for her.) She climbs trees, geocaches, rolls in the mud, and tumbles in them. We have discussed making sure people can't see your underwear. (Mostly because it makes other people uncomfortable and because I want a sense of personal space for her.) But that mostly includes her tucking her skirt in between her sprawled legs. It never occurred to me to discuss "keeping your legs closed". It seems keeping your legs closed is more about "proper lady-ness" than it is about what other people can see.....
I have 2 daughters who are now 13 and 14. When they were little, I let them pick their own clothes, and they both like to wear dresses sometimes. I had them wear leggings or shorts under, because being able to run, play, climb slide, etc were important activities.
It was only with puberty and wanting to dress more like an adult, wear make up, etc. that we talked about how to sit in a dress, get in and out of a car in a dress etc. It was a one time conversation when they were old enough to care about looking and acting appropriately when they dress up. More about pose and manners than "what it means to be female."
I HATE the "cross your legs, keep your knees together" thing. To me, it bring unnecessary attention to a little girls genitalia, and seems to assume that their are wild penis about that might go flying into a vagina if ever we females let our guard down. I was constantly put in dresses against my will as a child, and then shamed for "showing my crotch."
I've also made to through nearly 15 years of parenting a daughter without ever once bringing up "acting like a lady." I'm doing my best to raise strong women, not polite ladies.
but everything has pros and cons
LOL I used to hang around with a lot of kilt-wearing men, so when I picture how to sit properly in a skirt without showing underwear (or a lack of), I actually picture large bearded men with hairy knees. I think I would be pretty annoyed if anybody started hassling me or DD to keep our knees shut though, since that's not necessary in lots of styles of skirts, and if it is necessary I dont' wear it.
"Since when did UNDERWEAR become something to worry about?"
I've always thought that you didn't go around letting people see your underwear.
Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
14yo ds 11yo dd 9yo ds and 7yo ds and 2yo ds
I tell my dd to hide her underwear if she is doing something in a way that shows it. I explained it to her as an expectation in our society once she was in grade school and started noticing that people don't go around flashing their underpants. Boys are also expected not to go around showing their underwear off so I don't see it as a big deal. I don't teach her to sit a certain way because that isn't something that is expected of kids or most adults, plus I think it is funny when kids sit with their legs crossed because they wiggle so much it looks like they are about to wet themselves. If she needs to cross her legs when she is an adult I am sure she will pick up the skill.
AverysMomma, it may be the area you are in. I have never heard anyone in my area aside from some old great grandma types say that sort of thing. And I'm in NC so not exactly a place where you wouldn't expect such sentiments, but I am in a more liberal hotspot. I've been hanging around little girls for the past 10+ yrs and this sort of talk just doesn't come up around here.
However, many folks do talk about not seeing underwear or remind kids (usually girls) that they can see their underwear. I do encourage my girls to wear shorts under their dresses if they're planning to do a lot of playing outside. If we're just going to the library or grocery store and the dress is not super short I'm fine with just undies, but if they're going to be doing the monkey bars or something I do encourage shorts.
Likewise if I had a little boy I would encourage him not to be showing his underwear, too. I would not be down with the baggy pants hanging down past his crotch look.
I don't really wanna see a grown-up's underwear, either, so I don't think it's vagina-shaming so much as teaching appropriate modesty and not just for girls. After some age I wouldn't let my hypothetical boy run around naked in public, either. I'm okay with public diaper changes and a naked toddler at the beach or park doesn't bother me, but at some point I would like some clothes on the kids and also at some point I would want the clothes to be more than just underwear. At age 3, eh, it wouldn't bother me. If I saw a 3 yr old running through the park in nothing but undies I'd probably think it was cute, but if it was a 10 yr old, not so much.
Kids develop their own sense of modesty, too, as they mature — some more than others. My dd2 (age 7) has been shutting the door to the bathroom at home and locking it for about 2 yrs now, but my 10 yr old still will leave it wide open! Neither one of them would want someone else to see their underwear now. It would be soooooooo embarrassing!
So, I guess, my advice is not to think about it as sexually shaming, but instead as instilling appropriate levels of modesty and in my house that doesn't include "keep your legs closed" at all, but instead "I can see your undies".
"All you fascists are bound to lose" — Woody Guthrie
I've only scanned the replies, but seriously...I think we're really overthinking things. I like my vagina. I like my underwear too. That doesn't mean I think other people want to see either and it also doesn't mean I'm interested in seeing a bunch of other vaginas or underwear. I see no parallel between being a strong woman, or girl, loving your body, and needing to be free to sit around with your legs spread wide open.
It isn't sexist to suggest a person not show their undies in public or around visitors/guests. At our house, that guideline will go for the boys and any girls we may have. It is just a matter of being sensitive to others' feelings of perhaps wanting to go about life not feeling like they have to be uncomfortable looking at my vagina or my underwear.
Yeah, when DD was little she just thought that dresses always had shorts/pants on under them, like shirts do, because I dressed her that way because I did not feel she should have to keep her skirt down. Now that she is older she chooses between wearing shorts/pants/tights/nothing. She does know, though, that noone wants to see your underwear, so if she chooses nothing she has to be thoughtful of that. She usually wears something, but sometimes doesn't.
The rule goes for DS too - people don't want to see his underwear (or nipples! :)). I think it is part of being appropriate in society. I don't think it is oppressive.
SAHMlovin' to DD 10/00 & DS 10/04 If your son is intact, keep him safe, visit the Intact Care forum Circ, a personal choice, Your SONS 11/98 6/99 Thyroid cancer survivor. With 5 & 2 Boxers wishing for
1) a 3 year old cannot be expected to sit still, let alone sit with their legs closed or even sit up straight for any length of time. at least not my kids!
2) my DD, who is 5, is going to be wearing shorts under her skirts for a long time yet. she cannot sit still yet.
3) it is so not about her vagina! she wears underwear every day, so the vagina is always covered up. it's about the underwear and "flashing" in general. yes, it is innocent -- she is a young child. but it is my job to protect her. unfortunately, there are plenty of perverts out there in the world, and i sure don't enjoy the thought of any of them sneaking a peek at my dear child's skivvies. sorry... just no.
4) she has no problem with wearing the shorts. i simply frame it as nobody wants to see underpants. that's why they are called "under" wear. you wear them under your clothes!
We aren't there yet, since Doozer is just 18 months. But I hated the shaming that happened when I was a kid, and I see it all the time since I attend a very conservative church every Sunday. Also, people are telling me already that I need to be more careful with Doozer than I was with BuggaBoo because she's a girl. Not that I was lax with BuggaBoo, but we're not all uptight about nakedness around here. When he hit about 3 I told BuggaBoo that he need to wear underwear around friends and in the front yard because it was polite, but he can be naked in the house or our backyard, no biggie.
I never understood why it wasn't okay to see underwear but swimsuits and "spankies" under cheerleading uniforms was okay. They're the same thing! They show just as much! In my opinion it is a form of vagina shaming, because I've seen people say "Close your legs" to girls in pants, and I got that all the time in middle school from middle school boys. They learned it from somewhere!
Another example is from when I worked in a public school. One of my favorite little kids was a girl that belonged to a "skirtish" religion, she wore skirts every day to school. She was also extremely active and loved to tumble and play. She always wore shorts to school under her skirt. One day another playground duty told her she couldn't play on the monkey bars and she needed to act like a lady. She replied that she had shorts on, and the duty said, "Doesn't matter, you're in a skirt, you need to act like a lady." After she was done talking to the girl I went over and said, "She wears a skirt every day, it's their religion, and she has shorts on. What's the big deal? When is she going to be able to play according to your rules?" The reply was, "Well, probably never, because she'll always be in a skirt, but that's just how it is."
Later I went to the little girl and told her she could play however she wanted and to refer any nay-sayers to me. She was very grateful.
SAHM to DS BuggaBoo 12/07, and DD Doozer 03/10. Sharing life with The Hubby since 01/05.
My daughter is only two, but I usually have her wear shorts. For one if you are sitting on a monkey bar, tree limb, the ground, etc. it's and extra layer between that thing and your bum. Underwear are usually made of thin fabric. Nothing is more annoying than a scratch on your rear! My other fear is not so much that no one wants to see her underwear, but that some weirdo does. When we are at home I could care less. When we are out in public though I just don't like that feeling that a preditor could look see something that triggers something in them. I know that deep down that really isn't totally rational, but that doesn't stop my from thinking it.
The waist band to boys and mens underpants shows in back any time their shirt tails ride up when they sit down. Doesn't offend anyone unless their butt cracks are showing.
And men sit with their legs spread apart all the time. Never heard anyone complain about it.
What I don't get are girls bathing suits. Why are girls expected to go around in bra/underpants swimwear that will require them to have to remove their pubic hair as soon as it grows in while boys get to swim in regular shorts?
You mean pro vulva? Or pro labia?Cause no one sees a little girl's vagina... and no one sees a woman's vagina except her lover and her midwife. The vagina is unseen... its the inside part.
And yes, after age 6 or so .. I did teach my daughter to close her legs a bit when wearing a skirt. Or wear shorts underneath or leggings.
My sister is lesbian and not a girlish girl at all, that means, no skirts ever. Yet she wears her underwear in a way that people can see it. (it´s more the CalvinK type of shorties anyway, but she actually buys them because she loves how they peak out her pants. She is a grownup though.
I don´t mind seeing underwear esp. in kids. sometimes they are nice. Don´t wanna see dirty underwear though :)
Trin with DH , DD(7) and DS(5) , DD(2) , ,
I am not regularly online at the moment due to the above ...