raising grandchild hiv positive & mother was on pot... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 62 Old 09-26-2011, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hello all.

 

I have not written in for a very long time.  I have my kids growing up and now my 18 yr old son has an 18 yr old gf who found out yesterday that she's 6 weeks pregnant.  She is making an appointment with Planned Parenthood today for an abortion.  I have asked them if I can adopt the baby and they won't have any financial responsibility what-so-ever.  I know the mother has mental issues and is pagan, wiccan, been labled bi-polar, manic depressed, and a cutter.  I am Christian, conservative, kind, loving, non-judging, open and accepting (as much as possible) with her and all others. 

 

I now am hurting and in severe distress over the idea that this girl might abort my first grandbaby.  If she doesn't, I'm seriously worried about what am I really getting myself in for if this baby has all her problems mixed with my adopted son's problems, mixed with her using pot...  I don't even know where to begin with asking questions!  I'm trying to be numb so that the emotion doesn't destroy me... 

 

worried grandma B4 40...

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#2 of 62 Old 09-26-2011, 07:51 AM
 
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First off, I don't think being Pagan or Wiccan is a "problem".  Secondly, http://www.mothering.com/pregnancy-birth/use-of-marijuana-during-pregnancy.  Thirdly, how do you know a 6 week old embryo is HIV +?

 

I give you major kuddos for wanting to save your grandbaby and take care of him/her, but unfortunately this is their decision. 


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#3 of 62 Old 09-26-2011, 08:46 AM
 
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Good for you for stepping up and giving them another option! Either way though, it's their decision, no matter how hard it is for you.

 

I don't think you have to worry about the gf's religious choices affecting the baby, and honestly pot is not particularly concerning either. TBH, I'd rather a future mom smoke pot than cigarettes. I'm not quite following where the concern about HIV is coming from, but there are a number of strategies to help prevent mother to child transmission of HIV. If they do decide to let you raise the baby, I'm sure a health care provider will address those concerns. Mental health issues are of course concerning, but you have a heads up in advance to be on the lookout for any issues.

 

I can totally understand your worry, but a lot of thse are pure hypotheticals! Right now, you probably have enough to worry about just supporting your son and his gf through a difficult decision.

 

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#4 of 62 Old 09-26-2011, 10:16 AM
 
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as the others said, her religion has nothing to do with how the baby will turn out, and pot isnt great but isnt as bad as most people make it out to be. Is the mom HIV positive?

 

 

As for abortion, it's her choice and not yours, regardless of your beliefs about it you need to respect the fact that she is an independant person who can make her own choices. Being the bigger person means respecting someone's beliefs regardless of if you agree or not and still being supportive of that person.


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#5 of 62 Old 09-26-2011, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I brought up the Pagan/Wiccan because it's so different from my beliefs, nothing to do with mothering...  I didn't allow my son(and her) to use pot & have sex in my home (around the younger siblings) and she disagreed with that so completely that now she really doesn't like me. 

 

Despite that, I'm a stable home, with income, experience raising kids, she obviously likes my son (evidence that I must have done something right) and I am willing to take on another child.  I have also contacted at least 2 other families that would be willing to adopt the child, but she said that if she has it, she'd want to raise it. 

 

I did some reading online after I wrote this am and found out that the pot isn't such an issue like other drugs are... basically it MIGHT cause low birth weight, add, adhd or such, but that's about it.  I'm not as worried about that.  The mental issues I brought up cause even with this in her own life, I'm still willing knowing the possibilities... 

 

I don't want my first grandchild to be killed...  I want him/her to have the chance at a full life.  I want everything for him/her... except death while he/she can't fight back...

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#6 of 62 Old 09-26-2011, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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oh, HIV...  the mother tested positive once and negative once...  I don't know if she is or isn't. 

 

I had the opportunity to say some poignant things to her, but didn't.  I could have asked her if she already was devastated by loosing twins at 17 before getting with my son, how could she kill the 3rd child?  I could have told her that the baby has a heart and spine and eyes forming right now, but didn't.  I could have been brutal trying to save the life of this child, but I took her mentality and wellbeing into consideration.  I'm struggling here crying all morning and just don't know what else to do.  I know in reality, it's their decision, but things can be said to assist in decision making...  I want to make sure I do all I can...  It's still 2 days till she says she's getting it done, (where on earth will they come up with the money to do it???) and anything can happen. 

 

(still seeking words of wisdom and peace from all you lovely ladies here...)

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#7 of 62 Old 09-26-2011, 07:39 PM
 
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The only wisdom and peace I can give you is that we are lucky enough to live in a society where a woman has the right to choose what happens with her body and what goes on inside of it. Whether you believe in abortion or not, really cant come into play with someone else's body. I am sure that at some point your son will bless you with a grandchild but it just isnt meant to happen right now.

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#8 of 62 Old 09-29-2011, 12:58 PM
 
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It really is their decision and you only have input if they ask for it. But, if they do decide to carry to term AND ask you to adopt the child, please join us in the adoptive and foster parenting forum. Many of us are parenting children who were born to parents with a wide range of physical, psychological, chemical, and other issues.

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#9 of 62 Old 09-29-2011, 01:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by grandmaB440 View Post

I know in reality, it's their decision, but things can be said to assist in decision making...  I want to make sure I do all I can... 


tell her and your son that you love them and accept them unconditionally, and that whatever they decide at this difficult, difficult moment of their lives, you will always love them. Completely love and accept them, no matter what.

Drop ALL your judgements of every single thing about her. No woman wants to hand her child over to a judgmental person. You describe yourself as non-judgmental, but that isn't coming across to me on this thread, so I doubt that it's what you project to them.

If they make the choice to end the pregnancy, then mourn the loss the same way you would if she had miscarried. If that is praying, lighting a candle, crying on the should of a friend, or planting some flowers.

For many women I know who terminated pregnancies when they were young, it become a turning point in their own life. A moment of intense realization.

I'm not the same religion as you, and my religion teaches re-incarnation. I asked my spiritual adviser once about abortion, and was told that the spirit of the child made the choice to be part of the situation with full knowledge of the possible outcome, and was willing to take that role for the possible growth that it provided. And that if the abortion does happen, the spirit can be re-incarnated. Its chance for life isn't lost.

I know that your beliefs are different, but perhaps talking to your own spiritual adviser would be helpful -- not to discuss the rightness or wrongness of abortion, but to ponder if you believe that the spirit has already entered the fetus, and if so if it goes straight to heaven, or if the spirit enters later so still has an opportunity for a human life. Either option seems peaceful to me -- because in both cases, what is fundamentally the most important part of your first grandchild is whole no matter what happens.

You and I both believe that every person has a soul, and we both believe that the soul does not die and isn't harmed when the body passes away.

I, too, am sadden by abortion. I hear your grief coming across in your post, and I can only image the turmoil that your son and his girl friend are going through right now. I have tears in my eyes as I write this. I hope that sharing my spiritual views wasn't offensive in any way to you, I was hoping to offer you a path toward some measure of peace of mind at this difficult and painful moment for you all.

Peace

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#10 of 62 Old 09-29-2011, 03:17 PM
 
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For many women I know who terminated pregnancies when they were young, it become a turning point in their own life. A moment of intense realization.



Peace


As a woman who has terminated a pregnancy, the above is so true.

If I carried my baby to full term, there is no way I would hand him or her over to someone who was extremely judgmental about everything I do. Pot isnt that big of a deal, its not the worst thing you can be doing thats for sure.

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#11 of 62 Old 09-29-2011, 03:26 PM
 
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I dont know how that turned out that way. For other's reference:

Linda said the "For many women I know who terminated...." line and I said the stuff underneath the box. I cant seem to edit it to reflect the correct thing.

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#12 of 62 Old 09-30-2011, 07:32 AM
 
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I can see why you're heart broken about the possibility of the loss.  My mom went through the same thing with my brother and his GF.  Every friend I've had who has had an abortion has suffered dearly.  Before and after.  Their heart breaks too.  They didn't go in the docs office with a smile on their face planning their afternoon shopping trip.  Though I don't think abortion is a great way to go and I'm not for it, I was still there for them.   The best thing you can do is build a relationship with her.  If she does keep the baby, you want to be part of it.  If she decides to give it up you want to be the one she chooses and if she does end it... can you be the one she comes to for support?

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#13 of 62 Old 09-30-2011, 10:07 AM
 
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I would urge you to change your perspective and your outward attitude toward your son's GF

 

Understand that this is not about you and your feelings here but respect for her and what ever decision she makes. You don't come across as being supportive.

 

By showing such emotion and condemnation you may end up with the completely opposite effect you wanted.

 

The GF may feel that you are pressuring her and she may be turned off by excepting your prospective and this may factor into her decision as to wanting to abort. If someone made me feel this way I would not want to having anything to do with being a part of this family.

 

If she does abort I would not say another word about to her if you can not say you respect her.

 

 

Personally I could see that she may have a change of heart regarding your son when all is done and your conduct may contribute to her not wanting to have a relationship with him if she sees how she is viewed and how you act towards her. 

 

While you can have all the feelings you do, when you don't show her that hers are also just as valid, you are setting yourself (and possible other GF's down the road) up to bad relationships-IMO

 

you made it clear how you feel-look at how you are making her feel-respect is a two way street and please remember this is her choice, not yours 

 

if you are unable to deal or except her choice please don't take it out on her


 

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#14 of 62 Old 10-01-2011, 03:08 AM
 
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Wow. This woman is sad because her grandchild might be killed in utero, and everyone thinks it's appropriate to tell her they feel they're "lucky" to live in a society with abortion, or that it's OK because according to their beliefs, the baby will be reincarnated or isn't "meant to be", or criticise her for being judgmental because she was worried pot might have an effect on the baby?

 

SERIOUSLY, people? She hasn't browbeaten her son's girlfriend with pro-life arguments. She has offered an alternative that might turn her own life upside down. She's hurting, and it sounds like a very painful situation to be in. Yes, it's "not about her" in that it principally affects the girlfriend and (to a lesser extent) her son; but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant! I know a woman who was devastated when her daughter had an abortion - it was a real, traumatic experience FOR HER. How about a bit of compassion?

 

GrandmaB440, I'm sorry you're in this position. :( I don't have any good advice for you, but it must be really hard to be in that position. (FWIW, the transmission rate of HIV from mother to baby is surprisingly low, I think, and there are ways to minimise the risk even further; just 'cause you mentioned it.)


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#15 of 62 Old 10-01-2011, 07:09 AM
 
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So sorry GrandmaB440. I couldn't imagine being in that position either. No real advice, except that if your son's gf goes through with it and stays with your son, I hope you and she are able to come to a better relationship. For the sake of keeping your son and potential future DiL and grandkids in your life. hug.gif:

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#16 of 62 Old 10-01-2011, 11:11 AM
 
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it's OK because according to their beliefs, the baby will be reincarnated or isn't "meant to be",


you are referring to my post, but that wasn't what I said. What I said was that in wrestling with this difficult issue, I turned to my spiritual beliefs and my spiritual adviser, which provided me with solace. And I advised her to do the same. In her first post she brought up her religious beliefs, I was pointing out that those beliefs can bring her a measure of peace at this difficult and painful time.

Nothing in my post or my feelings minimizes the pain the OPer is currently feeling, which comes quite clearly through her writing. I feel nothing but compassion for her.

As I was reading your post, the Serenity Prayer came to mind:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference.

In some situations, the most we can pray for is serenity. Knowing when serenity is all that we can pray for is quite different than judging someone or lacking compassion.
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#17 of 62 Old 10-01-2011, 07:22 PM
 
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My heart goes out to you! You r in a very difficult situation. What others said is true..u do not have any rights in this if they choose to go through with the abortion..but that doesn't mean u have to like it! That is part of what makes this such a difficult decision, u have luttle to no control! I think if u very gently state that u will be there for them no matter what, but that u love your grandchild and would like to see them give their baby the gift of life, and will support them in doing so any way possible.
Could u talk with your son and let him know where u r coming from? I think a good point was made about talking with your pastor/spiritual leader to help u with this and provide insight.
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#18 of 62 Old 10-01-2011, 07:43 PM
 
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Wow. This woman is sad because her grandchild might be killed in utero, and everyone thinks it's appropriate to tell her they feel they're "lucky" to live in a society with abortion, or that it's OK because according to their beliefs, the baby will be reincarnated or isn't "meant to be", or criticise her for being judgmental because she was worried pot might have an effect on the baby?

 

SERIOUSLY, people? She hasn't browbeaten her son's girlfriend with pro-life arguments. She has offered an alternative that might turn her own life upside down. She's hurting, and it sounds like a very painful situation to be in. Yes, it's "not about her" in that it principally affects the girlfriend and (to a lesser extent) her son; but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant! I know a woman who was devastated when her daughter had an abortion - it was a real, traumatic experience FOR HER. How about a bit of compassion?

 

GrandmaB440, I'm sorry you're in this position. :( I don't have any good advice for you, but it must be really hard to be in that position. (FWIW, the transmission rate of HIV from mother to baby is surprisingly low, I think, and there are ways to minimise the risk even further; just 'cause you mentioned it.)



Seriously? I was completely appalled at this thread for the opposite reason. What kind of person shames someone for the hard decision to abort and offers to take their baby? I would be completely outraged and freaked out if anyone approached me with that while I was pregnant and considering abortion.

 

IF it is EVER appropriate to approach someone with something like that a simple, "You know I am always here and, if adoption is something you would consider I would gladly raise the baby." Nothing more than that.

 

 

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#19 of 62 Old 10-01-2011, 08:03 PM
 
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Seriously? I was completely appalled at this thread for the opposite reason. What kind of person shames someone for the hard decision to abort and offers to take their baby? I would be completely outraged and freaked out if anyone approached me with that while I was pregnant and considering abortion.

 

IF it is EVER appropriate to approach someone with something like that a simple, "You know I am always here and, if adoption is something you would consider I would gladly raise the baby." Nothing more than that.

 

 



I didn't see the OP saying that she shamed the GF for wanting to abort in any way. I see that she is hurting thinking of the life of her grandchild and wanting to help and in need of knowing how. I think all you can do is be as open, and non judging and present for your son and his GF as you can, and let them know how much you love them and want to help. If their decision sends you beyond what you can manage to be present with them and still handle, be gently honest and let them know that you support their decisions but you need to remove yourself a bit because you aren't able to be neutral about this. As human beings, we all have times that no matter how unconditional we see our love as being, our negative emotions can get the better of us and we may behave differntly than in the gentle way we wished. Be honest and gentle with yourself, too.

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#20 of 62 Old 10-01-2011, 10:58 PM
 
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IF it is EVER appropriate to approach someone with something like that a simple, "You know I am always here and, if adoption is something you would consider I would gladly raise the baby." Nothing more than that.

There's no evidence that the OP DID say anything more than that. As per post 6 of this thread, she was very restrained about her feelings and beliefs out of consideration for the mother's feelings. She made a deliberate effort not to "shame" her, as you put it.

 

Honestly, I don't get the "under no circumstances must you hint that you think abortion is a bad thing" mentality in this thread. If the mother is so mentally fragile that she'll have some kind of meltdown at the realisation her boyfriend's mother is pro-life, she shouldn't be making a decision as momentous as whether or not to terminate. The OP obviously recognises that the mother has a legal right to terminate, but that does not mean she (the OP) is somehow obliged to believe that it is a moral choice, or to pretend that she does.

 

Obviously being unkind to the mother wouldn't be helpful to anyone, but why should she have to "support their decision"? What does that even mean? If it means "refrain from locking the mother in a room for nine months", well, yeah, duh. But if it means "pretending that she feels either choice is equally morally valid" when she clearly doesn't, well, no. She's allowed to be true to her beliefs. I've come across a kind of "It's OK to be pro-life deep down inside as long as you still drive your friends to the abortion clinic" mentality before, and I think I see it on this thread; and I don't get it. It's like saying "It's OK to be opposed to adultery as long as you help your friend set up assignations and don't breathe a word that you think her cheating is wrong; otherwise you're interfering with her freedom of choice" - that being, apparently, the cardinal sin these days. (Yet, here on MDC, people are happy to use emotional arguments and persuasive techniques to persuade people not to do things within their legal rights, such as circumcising their babies, formula-feeding, whatever; even though these things, too, impact on a woman's freedom of choice and how she uses her body!)

 

Not to mention that legal "freedom of choice" does not mean "a choice made without considering all aspects of the question". Heck, at 18 the mother's decision-making faculties aren't fully developed. As parents (or rather, relevant adults) we recognise that in most scenarios, giving our opinion - generally without coercion, one hopes - on questions ranging from "should I quit Uni and become a rock star?" to "my boyfriend left me, should I torch his car?" to "is marijuana OK?" Why is it OK for a person to express opinions (even strong, even morality-based) opinions on subjects like that, but suddenly taboo when it comes to something like abortion (which a huge percentage of women regret, incidentally)? Why is "Marijuana can damage a growing brain, is against the law, and I would be disappointed if you did it" OK to say, but "There is a living baby in you which I believe has a soul, and I would be very sad if he didn't get to live" so sinister?

 

OP, thinking about your offer to adopt, I can see why the mother would be reluctant. No offense, but if I were a pregnant Wiccan, I probably wouldn't want my child brought up by a conservative Christian either, you know? What she might (possibly) prefer would be an offer simply to help in any way you can. She might want to bring up the baby herself, but be worried about going to Uni with a baby - you could offer to watch the baby during the daytime. She might be worried about money - you could offer to help get her set up in a house, or whatever. If you have a good relationship, maybe you could find out specifically why she doesn't want to have the baby - and if it's anything you can help with (assuming you're willing to take it on), you could (gently, tactfully) offer to help. People don't abort for no reason, and lack of support (financial, child-care, emotional, etc) is often a big factor; so offering to help, but not in a way that would take ownership of her child or control over her/his bringing-up, might be something she'd appreciate.

 

What does your son feel about all this? Would he step up to his responsibilities as a dad if she continued the pregnancy?


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#21 of 62 Old 10-01-2011, 11:47 PM
 
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#22 of 62 Old 10-02-2011, 07:45 AM
 
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Obviously being unkind to the mother wouldn't be helpful to anyone, but why should she have to "support their decision"? What does that even mean? 

 

 

IMO - it mean when you don't--- you are showing disrespect 

 

the "choice" is not the OP to make and not being "supportive" of the choice the GF makes shows you do not agree and you risk (strongly) that you will cause serious relationship problems (rift- alienation) between the OP and her son not to mention the GF

 

I'm sure all the negative things the OP wrote about the GF could easily be reversed and said about the OP if the GF had written it---the OP has a lot to loose her and not just a first grandchild

 

you read time after time (here) about new parents who have serious "issues" with in-laws and they end up out of the child's life ---ALL because the do not support the decisions the parents make---really not any different-IMO

 

choice is not the grandmother's in this case or if a child is here later on

 

ETA -

 

Quote:
 Heck, at 18 the mother's decision-making faculties aren't fully developed.

the opposite can also be said - we put the "young" mother be it 18 or 16 or what every "young age" you want to say, who has the child and who questions and who also does not have a medicated birth, who BF, who is non-circ, delayed or non-vac, etc.,  as an intelligent super woman yet someone who is "young" (for what ever reason or several reasons) chooses to abort becomes a non-correct decision maker- what crazy irony???


 

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#23 of 62 Old 10-02-2011, 11:54 AM
 
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serenbat: Sorry, but I don't get what you're saying. I never said the "choice" was the OP's.

 

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the opposite can also be said - we put the "young" mother be it 18 or 16 or what every "young age" you want to say, who has the child and who questions and who also does not have a medicated birth, who BF, who is non-circ, delayed or non-vac, etc.,  as an intelligent super woman yet someone who is "young" (for what ever reason or several reasons) chooses to abort becomes a non-correct decision maker- what crazy irony???

That wasn't what I said (although actually, being pro-life, I agree with it, and how exactly is it ironic to feel that making a decision you believe is morally wrong is, well, morally wrong, and therefore "non-correct"; whereas making parenting decisions based on good science in a culture which largely denies that science is pretty awesome? But anyhoo). I'm objecting to the idea that surrounding someone - anyone, but particularly someone whose decision-making faculties aren't entirely up and running yet - only with approving silence or yes-men on an issue is the only ethical approach; and that disagreeing with her actions is impinging upon her freedom of choice. There seems to be a feeling out there that a choice is only uncoerced if nobody else's arguments or thoughts have any bearing on the result; but that doesn't seem logical to me. Marrying DH was my choice, but that doesn't mean I didn't take my parents' opinion of him into consideration; or that their having and expressing an opinion on the matter was somehow a breach of common decency. (Perhaps a better analogy: one of my sisters ended up marrying someone my parents didn't entirely approve of, and because she was secure in her decision, they didn't change her decision; but they did give her the opportunity to consider all sides of the question. Of course, they had a fairly good relationship, whereas I don't know what the OP's relationship with the mother is like, which would obviously change what it's appropriate for her to say.)


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#24 of 62 Old 10-02-2011, 12:44 PM
 
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NM - I know better than to talk abortion at all...


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#25 of 62 Old 10-02-2011, 12:48 PM
 
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The OP has not uttered one thing positive that she even likes about the GF in any of her posts---personally, I would never take a person's (who felt like that about me) opinion into account for anything.  


 

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#26 of 62 Old 10-02-2011, 02:31 PM
 
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Uh... I think the OP is another Woman, who came to other Women for advice. I don't think we should be short changing her because we have been able to pick apart her post, note that we have different beliefs then write her off. That's pretty sad if that's how this is going to work.

We should be only offering advice on how she can positively be part of the lives of her son, his girlfriend and the potential child. How she can help without stepping on toes. She's still a mother and she still feels like she needs to help her child. What in the name of Judas is wrong with that? You're going to turn off the moment your child turns 18 and not even think to worry about him/her and their choices?
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#27 of 62 Old 10-03-2011, 05:05 AM
 
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OP, we haven't heard back. How is everything going?

Busy keeping up with three children and an awful lot of chickens!

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#28 of 62 Old 10-03-2011, 07:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

 

>Obviously being unkind to the mother wouldn't be helpful to anyone, but why should she have to "support their decision"?


I think the question is more about how to build a solid relationship with her son and his girlfriend.

The Oper's actions and words at this time could scar that relationship beyond repair. No matter how one feels about abortion, destroying the relation with one's child is something most parents want to avoid.

I think that some pro-life people have a hard time understanding exactly how hurtful it is to a person in crisis to make the needs of a fetus more important than the needs of the breathing human being standing in front of them.


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#29 of 62 Old 10-03-2011, 01:18 PM
 
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See, I don't see how "solid relationship" equals "supporting a decision one thinks is wrong". Surely it's not much of a relationship if its success is built on one person hiding what she feels, and essentially lying to the other in order to not rock the boat? That sounds very dysfunctional to me. A good relationship should be able to weather "I love you, but I think what you're doing is wrong and it makes me sad". The OP can still be supportive of her son (or his girlfriend) as people without supporting her decision to abort.

 

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I think that some pro-life people have a hard time understanding exactly how hurtful it is to a person in crisis to make the needs of a fetus more important than the needs of the breathing human being standing in front of them.

The OP seems pretty aware of it, given post 6; but I think that statement belies a lack of understanding of the pro-life position. To someone who believes the fetus is a person, he or she IS a "human being standing in front of them" (not a breathing one, technically, but a living one); and his/her "needs" are rather more basic and urgent: simply life. No, the fetus won't get hurt feelings if it's aborted, but it will get, you know, killed; so prioritising the person who's more powerless and has more to lose (everything, in fact) hardly makes someone a callous monster. I don't think I can get more explicit without getting into a full-on abortion debate, which I assume is still against the UA (and kinda OT to the original topic, anyway - sorry, OP); but I really hate the whole "pro-lifers are mean" angle. Apart from the odd sadistic individual, pro-lifers consider hurt feelings collateral damage for a higher purpose; just as pro-choicers consider the life of fetuses collateral damage for a higher purpose. I think anyone with any empathy and imagination - regardless of her own position on the issue - can recognise that their are caring people with good intentions on both sides of the debate.


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#30 of 62 Old 10-03-2011, 02:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

See, I don't see how "solid relationship" equals "supporting a decision one thinks is wrong". Surely it's not much of a relationship if its success is built on one person hiding what she feels, and essentially lying to the other in order to not rock the boat? That sounds very dysfunctional to me. A good relationship should be able to weather "I love you, but I think what you're doing is wrong and it makes me sad". The OP can still be supportive of her son (or his girlfriend) as people without supporting her decision to abort.

 

The OP seems pretty aware of it, given post 6; but I think that statement belies a lack of understanding of the pro-life position. To someone who believes the fetus is a person, he or she IS a "human being standing in front of them" (not a breathing one, technically, but a living one); and his/her "needs" are rather more basic and urgent: simply life. No, the fetus won't get hurt feelings if it's aborted, but it will get, you know, killed; so prioritising the person who's more powerless and has more to lose (everything, in fact) hardly makes someone a callous monster. I don't think I can get more explicit without getting into a full-on abortion debate, which I assume is still against the UA (and kinda OT to the original topic, anyway - sorry, OP); but I really hate the whole "pro-lifers are mean" angle. Apart from the odd sadistic individual, pro-lifers consider hurt feelings collateral damage for a higher purpose; just as pro-choicers consider the life of fetuses collateral damage for a higher purpose. I think anyone with any empathy and imagination - regardless of her own position on the issue - can recognise that their are caring people with good intentions on both sides of the debate.


I lean towards agreeing with the bolded. I also think cementing a good relationship with the gf (possible future DiL, etc) is very important. Part of forming that bond would be not alienating her. I get the sense that the OP and the son's gf are presumably not at the level of being comfortable enough in their affection for each other to say, "I love you, but..." in a situation like this. You kwim? How one definres "support" comes into play as well. I guess this just raises more questions than answers them, but it's what I've been thinking about re: this thread. How is it possible to, in practical language, "support" someone who is doing something that you strongly feel is wrong?

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