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#1 of 18 Old 03-01-2012, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have no idea how things got this bad.

My oldest daughter just turned four and since her sister was born 4 months ago, she's been terrible to live with---to the point I've been considering getting a job just so I don't have to be around her (and I feel TERRIBLE for feeling this way).  She's usually fine.  She adores her sister and doesn't show any aggression or anger toward her, but if I am unable to meet her needs instantly WATCH OUT.  It is much, much worse when my husband is working out of town and I am alone.  He's been gone for three days and I've been in tears for the past two.

 

This morning she was in the bath and her sister was asleep.  Baby woke up (she had leaked through her diaper) and I went to change her and try to get her back to sleep.  My oldest started screaming and wailing because she wanted me to sit in the bathroom with her while she took at bath.  Note I NEVER do this.  I haven't done that since she was old enough to play unsupervised in the tub.  It has been YEARS since I sat in the bathroom the whole time while she bathes.  I will check on her while she bathes.  I will help her wash her hair, but I do not sit in the bathroom for an hour while she plays.  I explained to her that I was breastfeeding her sister and when I was finished I would be happy to come and help her wash her hair.  (The baby monitor was in the bathroom from earlier so we could hear each other).  She continued to wail and cry----I continued to calmly reassure her that would be there shortly.  This continued to the point of her walking into my bedroom, dripping with water----and screaming and crying from beside the bed where I was trying to nurse.

 

Now, I have a screaming wet child and a baby who is WIDE AWAKE.

 

I decided to try another path because being calm and reassuring her wasn't working.  I asked her what she wanted me to do.  She replied with the same answer, she wanted me to stop breastfeeding and come and wash her hair.  I explained that I could not do that, because I was breastfeeding.  This same song and dance continued.  Me asking her to try and calm down (something we've been working on because of situations just like this one).  Me growing more and more upset and frustrated because I have a crying baby who is tired and can't sleep because of her older sister.  I threatened to take away her favorite toy---this doesn't ever work.  I threatened to take away a trip we are supposed to go on for her birthday----this doesn't work either.  I don't spank----because it doesn't work.

This continues for an hour (sometimes it lasts three hours).

 

I blow dry my hair---she's laying in the hallway, wrapped in a towel, crying and crying.  Saying she's cold.  I ask her to go to her room and pick out an outfit and I'll help her put it on...she just cries.

I tell her that she's in control of her own emotions and her own body and if she wants to not be cold all she has to do is pick out some clothes.  Nothing.

 

At this point I'm about to break down into tears.  It's been over an hour and my body is stressed and I'm feeling like I'm going to snap.

I tell her I'm walking to the mailbox and when I come back I want her to be in her room, calming her body down.

 

I go to the mailbox and walk around the yard, I sit on the swing outside on the porch.  I'm gone for about 5-7 minutes.

 

She's still inside the house screaming and crying.

 

I don't know what to do.  I've tried everything with her.  She works herself up into such a HUGE fit of anger that it's almost like she can't calm down unless she explodes first.  I'm scared and terrified of living the rest of my life like this.  My mother went through the same thing with my sister and still does on occasion.  I am worried about my other daughter, because I don't want her growing up like I did in a home with such anger and everyone walking on eggshells.  We do not ignore her.  I spend most of my time with her when I can.  We do not have a television, so I am involved with her all day long.  I involve her with helping with her sister, she helps me do chores, she helps me clean the house, we bake together.  Recently I've been doing some homeschooling with her and we spend 30-45 minutes every day (while the baby sleeps) doing this.  My husband when he gets home from work spends the entire time with just her!  She is very, VERY intelligent---which makes it more upsetting that she can't understand simple explanations when she's upset.  "when you are calm, then we can play."

 

I'm at my wits end.

What am I doing wrong?!  What am I missing here?

 

Please help.

 

 

 

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#2 of 18 Old 03-01-2012, 11:53 AM
 
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First of all big hugs to you ((((hugs)))).  The transition from one to two can be so difficult (it was for me!) and even the calmest of kids won't go through it without a hitch... let alone a more spirited kid.

 

I think you should consider yourself in "survival mode" right now.  For me that means lowering expectations greatly.  Lower your expectations for yourself (ie. forgive yourself any not-so-stellar parenting moments and let go of any guilt), and lower your expectations for your older child.  I know this happens to lots of mamas and it happened to me big time, but when your 2nd child is born it can seem like your older dc is much older than they really are.  Expectations can get disproportionate to their abilities.  Now factor in the reality that most/all kids who just got a new sibling actually need *more* babying (reassurance) as opposed to less babying (expecting them to be independent, etc) and you've got a difficult situation on your hands.  The answer IMO is to reduced your expectations for your dd.  Go ahead and baby her even more than you would if she was an only child.  Build up her confidence that she is still "your baby" too, that mommy will still be there to take care of her, etc.  Even when it seems unreasonable (demanding you to be there while she takes the bath even though she's used to you not being there the whole time), it is just her showing a need for a little extra TLC and reassurance.  Also, to that end, you will probably find that the more time you can carve out for special one-on-one time with her the easier things will go the rest of the time.  It's the whole idea of "filling her cup" with attention.  If the cup is full she'll find it way easier to "let go" if you need a little space or time to take care of the baby and take care of yourself.

 

I also have a book recommendation for you: The Explosive Child.  I just finished it and I have a feeling that you might find it quite helpful.

 

One last thought: 4 is a notoriously difficult age (my doula called it the "f-you fours").  Things will get easier, I promise!


Kate, mom to 7 year old Djuna and 4 yr old Alden. Missing our good friend Hal the cat who died June 2, 2010

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#3 of 18 Old 03-01-2012, 12:05 PM
 
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This is just my thought based on my own experiences, maybe I've missed something, and certainly I don't know the situation that well.

 

Four is a hard age. DD was very intense at that age. I mean, she still is, but 4 and 5 was hard for me. I was always really annoyed at the dramariffic stuff she'd pull.

 

Now she's 6 and I see her really moving beyond that. Not entirely. She's still intense.

 

My current perspective, and what I would tell myself if I could go back in time to give myself advice, is for ME to chill out about it. Instead of getting mad about her antics, or trying to convince her why she should calm down, or anything, just give her a reasonable response and then let her figure it out. No, it wouldn't instantly stop the drama but honestly, nothing does, does it?

 

You might already be doing this. Take the laying-in-the-hallway-crying-for-clothes incident. Oh yeah, my kid might have done that at 4 or 5. I mean, literally, that might have actually happened. The question is, did you keep engaging with her about it? Maybe you did, maybe you didn't. But my Monday morning quarterback perspective says, just respond and then let it go. I don't mean ignoring her or giving her the silent treatment, but just not engaging and not putting energy into it. "You can go get clothes from your dresser." She's still going to cry, yeah. It's taking the long-term perspective. She will probably outgrow it within a couple of years. Don't despair.

 

I haven't experienced the sibling factor, but I'm sure it will also improve.


Homeschooling mama to 6 year old DD.

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#4 of 18 Old 03-01-2012, 12:36 PM
 
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Hugs mama, my little one is like this.  It passes but until then my thoughts are with you.  Def read the book Laohaire suggested.

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#5 of 18 Old 03-01-2012, 12:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

Hugs mama, my little one is like this.  It passes but until then my thoughts are with you.  Def read the book Laohaire suggested.



biggrinbounce.gif I had to check what this book was, because I need to read it myself!

 

Ah, pianojazzgirl's rec, the Explosive Child. Thanks for pointing out the recommendation, I'll have to pick it up!


Homeschooling mama to 6 year old DD.

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#6 of 18 Old 03-01-2012, 01:19 PM
 
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That sleep thing is the single thing that had me raging on a consistent basis. I remember one day, I got both littles to sleep, and my preschooler was sitting in the bathroom talking to me while I took a shower. The mailman (not our regular guy) knocked on the door, DD popped out into the hall (you can see in from the front door), told me who it was, and I told her not to worry, that he would leave a little slip and we would walk down and get our package later. I was in no mood to jump out of the shower and attempt to be half decent in order to answer the door. The mail man saw only my not quite 3 year old in the hall, and no amount of pounding produced a parent, so he called the police. I had no idea. DD had a meltdown over something completely ridiculous, and began the screaming fit. I told her she could NOT (gritted teeth) scream while the babies were sleeping. I told her that if she couldn't stop, right now, she was going to have to go outside. She couldn't stop, so I tossed her out. In the spring in Canada. In a t-shirt. Downtown. I shut the door, grabbed her sweater and shoes from the hooks by the front door, and then opened the door to go sit with her while she screamed. As I came out of my house, I ran in to two police officers coming up the outdoor stairs. I'm still shocked that CPS never showed up on my doorstep! Anyway, you're not alone!

A few things that I found helpful were:

-Nature documentaries on my laptop. We don't have a tv. We didn't do screen time. Nature documentaries, or even just whale videos on youtube saved my butt. It's not an awesome solution, but neither is you completely losing your crap over your dd waking up your baby. 

-Putting dd in the sling on my back. This is sort of a pain, and reduces your rocking the baby ability to bouncing on an exercise ball, but it works in a pinch for us.

-Letting go. For real. If the baby doesn't nap, well, it's not the end of the world. Dr. Laura Markham seems to have this "This is not an emergency" mantra, and really, it does apply. Your baby might be cranky. Your baby might consequently fall asleep at 5pm, and then be up until 11pm, it sucks, but, hey, it's uninterrupted time to spend focused on your baby. It's so, so hard to be zen about this, I know, but getting steamed about it doesn't help anybody. Throw the baby on your back and go for a walk or something. 

-Get out of the house. I know, it's nap time, there are a thousand things you want to get done. But, this one saved my sanity more than once. If I was really mad, I would put them both in the double stroller and just go. Walk, walk, walk. It clears your head, the baby might fall asleep, and your dd gets a change of scenery. 

-This one might be more controversial, but we're currently at my parents' house, and my brother's old room is sort of in a separate wing of the house. A screaming child in there is barely audible elsewhere. I always warn dd, and I always explain it in a "ds needs to go to sleep now, and he can't sleep if you're screaming. I know you don't want to go in Uncle's room, and I don't want you to have to go in there either. So, can you stop screaming right now, or do you need to go in there until ds is sleeping? I will come as soon as I can" Sometimes she has to go in there, and she hates it, and I hate it, but the reality is that she just can't scream and disrupt everyone else. 

-Holding your dd. I know this isn't always an option, but when I can do this, the results are awesome. When dd melts, if I can just hold her and rock a bit and talk calmly about how I would like to talk to her, but she can't listen while she's screaming, etc, etc, usually a max of 15 minutes is enough. I was no good at this when ds was tee tiny, 'cause I just couldn't leave him (usually crying) to deal with dd, but these days it works really well. 

 

Can you talk to your dd when things are calm? Ask her what she wants when you're putting the baby to sleep? Brainstorm some ideas for things she could do while she waits? Sounds sort of fruity, but my 3 year old often comes up with some decent suggestions, so I'm sure yours could too. 

 

With the hair drying/cold fit thing, if I were feeling calm, I would try the holding trick, and if you weren't, I would probably say something like, "I've told you what you need to do to be warm. I will help you if you like. Right now I'm feeling a little bit angry that you are screaming about this, so I need to take a minute by myself in order to be calm and kind with you." And then I would shut the door and frantically try to make myself calm and kind. Or, you know, if it was a really bad day, I would shriek at her for a minute, feel awful about myself, stomp around a bit and demonstrate some stellar emotional regulation (ahem).Holy heck, this parenting thing is hard, hey? 

 

I've got to read this Explosive Child book. Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? It's a good one too. 


For greater things are yet to come...

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#7 of 18 Old 03-02-2012, 02:51 PM
 
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Hi,

It sounds like things are rough around your house these days! One thing I tried to do when my younger was new was to always blame everything on myself and not the baby. If baby was tired and we had to go home, I told DS that I was tired, or cold or whatever. He seemed to be able to handle me ruining everything, but couldn't handle baby ruining everything. Don't remember what I said about feeding, but you'll come up with something.

You might want to look into the book Siblings Without Rivalry. It will seem old for the stage you are at now, but I found myself using the techniques right away.

Good luck!
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#8 of 18 Old 03-03-2012, 06:56 PM
 
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First off, hugs bc she sounds exactly like my DD1, who would totally do what you've described.  Mine's a little younger so part of me is hoping she'll grow out of it, but another part of me suspects it's her personality and the tantrums will just change form as she grows.

 

I am wondering in the specific case you described, why couldn't you feed the baby in the bathroom?  I often sit and feed DD2 while watching DD1 bathe.  If the baby needs to be in a particular place/position to fall asleep I get that, but if it's a matter of just not being your usual thing to sit in there with her, perhaps an exception would have warded off the tantrum?


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#9 of 18 Old 03-04-2012, 07:38 AM
 
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My big kids both went through a phase like this, and there was no new baby sister when either of them did. What I did was say one of these "Screaming gets you nothing." "Screaming is NOT the way to get what you want." "I will not give you anything you ask for that way." and walk away. The main thing is, it needs to not work, at all. Ever.

 

With DS, if I needed him to be quiet RIGHT NOW, I'd tell him "Scream louder. Go ahead, it doesn't bother me." Okay that's probably not my proudest parenting moment, but it DID shut him up. It might be worth it in the moments where her noise level makes a difference for the baby sleeping or not, because it'll benefit her in the end when you can give her your undivided attention.

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#10 of 18 Old 03-04-2012, 10:34 AM
 
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OP, I could have written your post.  I am in the same hell with my 3.5 year old daughter, and i'm trying not to worry too much that this stage of life is ruining her for life.  I'm paranoid that what is going on now is how it's going to be forever, and I'm so sad b/c I feel like I've lost my baby girl. 

I even said to DH the other day, "I love her so much, but honestly I don't like her right now..." and then immediately regretted saying it.  But, I also contemplate going back to work part time because I'm just so emotionally worn out.  

 

She screams at me all the time.  Everything is a negotiation or a battle.  Everything.

She won't accept DH's help for anything, which kills me b/c I could really use the help.

Her little brother is 6 months old, and it seems like we got off pretty easy with her for the 1st 3 months or so.  Then we just hit a wall and now NOTHING gets thru.  She doesn't listen, she doesn't cooperate.  I'm going to take the sage advice I'm seeing here and indulge her a little more and not be so pushy towards her being a big girl/doing things herself.  I honestly don't mind getting her dressed or helping her with tasks.  But like you, OP, when I'm nursing the baby and all I hear is "MOMMY COME HERE!" over and over again, from the top of the stairs, and then DH tries to help out and she screams, "NO NOT YOUUU!  MOMMY!!" I just want to fall apart.  I'm so sick of it being me all the time.

 

I feel like all I'm ever doing is asking her/telling her to be quiet.  She has no volume control and it's maddening.  The baby will have JUST gone down for a nap and she's all over running/screaming/on her scooter, shouting, whatever.  Usually I just try to get her outside at some point during the day so she can be as loud as she wants with nobody telling her to shush.  I feel like such an ass b/c of course she can't be as quiet as a mouse, she's THREE.  I get that.  But the baby also needs some sleep!  

 

She sleeps in my bed (recent regression that I've caved on b/c it eliminates middle of the night screaming/crying), she wakes up with me, we are together all day.  During DSes naps, usually she won't allow me out of her sight w/o screaming/waking the baby, so chores never get done.  I'm always playing with her and constantly trying to avoid fighting.  We'll go for a walk once the baby is up, but even that sometimes is a failure if she flips out at some point during the day.  God forbid I want a shower.  It's "NO DON'T MOMMY I'LL MISS YOUU!!"  She makes more of a fuss all the time than the baby!!  She's on me 24/7 except at preschool, where she isn't the best behaved kid in class and often when I pick her up they tell me she wasn't listening or wouldn't cooperate, or said she wanted them to call me.  So, 3 hours away from me 3 times a week is even asking too much??

She doesn't let DH do bedtime, I have to do all the teeth brushing, jammies, stories, songs, tucking in (that was when I finally said enough.  Just come sleep in my bed. She falls right asleep).

 

I'm just feeling so burnt out.

 

I worry too that all DS sees is us arguing and her tantrums.  He must pick up on the stress.  Sometimes when she's flipping out, I look over at him and he just has this look of panic and fear on his face.  

 

I feel bad for him.  I feel bad for DD that maybe she's like this b/c we had another baby, when all we wanted was to give her a sibling.

 

She adores him, though.  She really does love him and shows no sign of actual resentment towards him...only this jealous behaviour and over the top, over-emotional reactions to things.

 

anyway, that's my rant.  I hope there's more advice to come b/c I'm seriously at my wits end and don't know what else to even do.  I feel like such a failure as a mommy.

 


Carrie SAHM to Nora Caitlyn (5) and Finnley Dax (2) homebirthing, breastfeeding, babywearing, intactivist, doula mama!         
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#11 of 18 Old 03-05-2012, 09:01 AM
 
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When my 2nd DC was born, I read something that made total sense. Your 1st had all your attention, when someone she did not ask for, want, or need, just presented itself between you and her. And she is supposed to only have good feelings towards this new invader. Think of it this way, if your DH came home and said to you "I have a wonderful gift I am giving you. I have found a second wife. She is very young, but I am sure that after she gets the hang of things, I know you will be the best of friends. I need to give her a lot of extra loving right now, but I am sure you will be fine with that." How fine would you be? Seriously, you would be jealous, fearful, insecure, and sometimes enraged. Normal feelings. A sibling can be similar. She didn't ask and sometimes she probably doesn't want, her baby sibling coming between you. Yet she is 4, not 2, so she probably feels guilty for her feelings on top of all of it. And since she is 4, she does still need you, a lot. A lot of just turned 4 yo can not get themselves off the floor when they are upset, get into their room and dress themselves alone - with or without a baby sister. I think your expectations are high, and I think you actually need to go backwards. A LOT of kids revert to babyhood when a sibling is born. There position has been replaced and they want to be sure they are loved. My DS did this. It lasted about 4 months. It annoyed the cr*p out of me in the beginning, which actually only made it worse. So then I gave into his babyness when I could. You know what happened? He then got over it much better. I remember one time actually picking him up in the newborn cradle hold and rocking him and singing "hush little baby don't say a word..." it was rediculous, but he loved it. He got the love he needed. He got to find out he was still loved, he was still ok, even though DD was there. Another thing was finding some me and him alone time. Once every 3 days I left DD with DH and we physically left and did something, without her. Yes, it took some arrangement, as she was EBF, so we had to do it right after a feeding, but it was really important for our relationship. Having time together when the baby is sleeping is good, but it is not the same as having real one on one time. Thats all your DD had before. How much does she have now? If your DH isn't in town, can you get a friend or babysitter to watch the baby 1-2 hours, every other day. Just so you and your DD can get some times together. It will really help. And it will take time. Might even get worse before it gets better, but it willl get better. 

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#12 of 18 Old 03-06-2012, 09:11 PM
 
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My kids are older (25, 17, 17, 13), so I have some perspective on this now, but it all sounds very familiar!  My twins turned 4 just a week after my last child was born, and there was definitely some regression in terms of my previously very independent 4-year-olds.  I agree that the best thing you can do is nurture your older child as much as possible (baby her).  Also, 4 was definitely the hardest age for all of my kids, so keep in mind that your daughter *will* snap out of it!  (((hugs)))

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#13 of 18 Old 03-07-2012, 07:48 AM
 
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with my little one, feeding her often helps a lot. she still has her moments, but 90% of the time it is because she is hungry & doesn't know it. 

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#14 of 18 Old 03-07-2012, 10:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mummoth View Post

My big kids both went through a phase like this, and there was no new baby sister when either of them did. What I did was say one of these "Screaming gets you nothing." "Screaming is NOT the way to get what you want." "I will not give you anything you ask for that way." and walk away. The main thing is, it needs to not work, at all. Ever.

 

You know, I do this too, but I make it more about having her ask again calmly.  I won't give her anything she is screaming for but I will say, "If you want milk you have to calm down and ask nicely."  She usually is able to do this, which I'm hoping will create a positive association between being calm and getting what she wants (rather than a negative association between screaming and *not* getting what she wants, which I think may be harder for her to process).  That's my theory anyway, we'll see how it turns out.

 

 

Quote:
With DS, if I needed him to be quiet RIGHT NOW, I'd tell him "Scream louder. Go ahead, it doesn't bother me." Okay that's probably not my proudest parenting moment, but it DID shut him up. It might be worth it in the moments where her noise level makes a difference for the baby sleeping or not, because it'll benefit her in the end when you can give her your undivided attention.

 

 

Btw I have done the 'Go ahead, scream' thing with my DD and it doesn't faze her one bit.  She does continue to scream..
 

 


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#15 of 18 Old 03-08-2012, 06:54 AM
 
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You know, I do this too, but I make it more about having her ask again calmly.  I won't give her anything she is screaming for but I will say, "If you want milk you have to calm down and ask nicely."  She usually is able to do this, which I'm hoping will create a positive association between being calm and getting what she wants (rather than a negative association between screaming and *not* getting what she wants, which I think may be harder for her to process).  That's my theory anyway, we'll see how it turns out.

 

 

 

 

Btw I have done the 'Go ahead, scream' thing with my DD and it doesn't faze her one bit.  She does continue to scream..
 

 



Yes to both of these.  If I'm calm, she calms down MUCH faster.  I just react to screaming by screaming.  It helps to use the thinking process that "this is not an emergency, nobody is in danger right now" and try to release those fight or flight associations that come up.

Also yes -- focus on the behavior you want rather than the one you don't.  Calm down and ask nicely is a better mental picture than stop screaming.

 

Go ahead and scream doesn't work so well when you're trying to keep the kid from waking the baby! lol.gif

 


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#16 of 18 Old 03-08-2012, 01:14 PM
 
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Yeah, the permission to scream worked great with DS, but not at all with DD.


~Teresa, raising DS (Jan. 02) and DD1 (Jun. 04) and DD2 (Dec. 11) with DH.

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#17 of 18 Old 03-09-2012, 08:05 AM
 
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Would it be possible to sit in/just outside the bathroom to nurse babe while older is bathing? That would have been my solution, to meet the needs of both kids.

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#18 of 18 Old 03-09-2012, 07:01 PM
 
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I found 4 year olds to be very HARD to parent. My oldest is 5 now and a bit better but still hard. My middle is 3 1/2 and getting into the same phase. Both were/are incredibly sensitive and emotional, they are also very intelligent and they KNOW what they wants. Lord save us if she wants something and I can't/won't get it/do it for her. Ive had melt down/crying fits that have lasted 6-7 hours and finally she falls asleep from them. With my oldest it was mostly a combination of missing daddy/being worried about him (my husband was deployed), needing more stimulation and wanting some undivided mommy attention. I can't say it got easier but she is better now about controlling her emotions, its just now getting her to express them without getting mad because I can't just guess whats wrong. My middle shes going through the adjustment of having Daddy back but hes always working (like 13+ hours a day), a new enviroment and being bored. A couple things that has helped some:

- I taught my oldest to draw faces depending on her emotion.. She is very into drawing and it gave her the chance to communicate what she was feeling before she was in total meltdown mode.

- a lot of cuddle time. Both were super independent before DH left but once he was gone they both needed some extra time with me reassuring them everything was going to be ok and daddy would be home as soon as he could be.

- a place dedicated to calming down. When my oldest was younger we had a cool down corner, I re-instituted it for her when she was having a lot of meltdowns. Both liked to have a place to go where they would be left alone to calm down. Sometimes me being there caused the problem to get worse, they just wanted to work through their feeling without me there (which is kind of sad to me as a mom but being a introvert I totally understand, I have to work out my feelings alone before I can communicate with others about them). They always had the option of having me there with them, all they had to do was ask,

- I learned to nurse practically everywhere. Ive nursed while reading, Ive nursed while walking about with the girls, nursed while cleaning etc.. My poor baby had a lot of "fast food" nursing sessions. You would be surprised how a baby will fall asleep anywhere. Hes even fallen asleep while being used as a pillow by his older sister (poor kid!)

- Give them permission to feel what they are feeling.. Its ok to me mad, sad, confused, etc. Its ok to show that emotion and let it out. Crying is totally ok in my family as long as its not effecting everyone else. Heck, Ill even indulge in a good cry every once in a while. Just afterwards we talk about why.. My kids now ask me whats wrong after Im done crying because I consider crying healthy at any age. It leads to some good conversation (like "mommy why are you crying? Dadddys home." "Mommys crying because shes happy" etc..) Anyway, Id rather the kids indulge in a good cry then hit each other (which is the other thing my now 3 year old loves to do when she is mad).

 

I can say it does get easier when it comes to the meltdowns. My oldest is down to 2-3 a day.. Yes, that is an improvement.


~Heather~ Mama to Miss E (1/07), Miss A (11/08), Mr.T (2/11) and Miss A (10/12) Expecting our newest blessing sometime late Sept/early Oct.. Wife to my Marine since 11/2005
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