Don't know where else to post this; I want to have a baby for my friend - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 107 Old 05-15-2012, 11:52 AM
 
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 It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else.

 

This bugs the heck out of me. How could it be unethical to conceive a child who you have every reason to believe will be doted upon by adoring parents and have a great life? How could DNA possibly matter that much? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but SO MUCH that a child would be better off not existing than being raised by adoptive parents? I don't get it. 

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#62 of 107 Old 05-15-2012, 01:04 PM
 
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 It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else.

 

This bugs the heck out of me. How could it be unethical to conceive a child who you have every reason to believe will be doted upon by adoring parents and have a great life? How could DNA possibly matter that much? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but SO MUCH that a child would be better off not existing than being raised by adoptive parents? I don't get it. 

 

So you think its ok to give someone a baby as an intentional gift? It feels too much like selling babies to me.

 

I'm ok with surrogacy, so I don't know why the idea bothers me so much. It's not that I think DNA actually makes that much of a difference - my brothers were both adopted, and it certainly didn't affect the relationship we have with each other. I can't exactly pin-point it.

 

I also realize that infertility can cause wounds that cannot be healed - a baby is the desire, but adopting a baby won't always cure those wounds. Some people who are infertile are not comfortable with adoption, and because it is such a private and personal decision those feelings get explained to outsiders as "It's too expensive" or "insert other totally valid but not entirely truthful reason here". No matter how close you are to someone, that person might not share with you their true feelings about adoption/surrogacy/etc, because of that private personal nature. Like someone else has pointed out, adopting from the state is "free" - money wise. Emotionally its an entirely different beast, and while the OP's friends might be OK with adoption in theory, adopting from the state might not be an acceptable option because of the emotional turmoil that comes with not knowing if the baby will be theirs forever, especially if placed with reunification as the goal.

 

That said, if private adoption, or international adoption is too expensive, I still don't think a person is a gift. Carrying a child with someone elses DNA is a gift - intentionally conceiving your own child to give to another person is treating children as property and not people. Adoption should be in the best interest of the child. I don't think its too much to say that its not in the best interest of the child to be given away as a gift.

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#63 of 107 Old 05-15-2012, 03:37 PM
 
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I think if you and your husband intentionally conceive and then give up baby, it could really be hurtful and confusing and painful for the person when they get older and try to figure it out. 

I like the idea of helping to fundraise. 

I'm not anti-adoption. 

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#64 of 107 Old 05-15-2012, 03:45 PM
 
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 It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else.

 

This bugs the heck out of me. How could it be unethical to conceive a child who you have every reason to believe will be doted upon by adoring parents and have a great life? How could DNA possibly matter that much? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but SO MUCH that a child would be better off not existing than being raised by adoptive parents? I don't get it. 


You are asking a very good question here and I urge you to research why some would feel this way. I think you would like this blog- this mom is an adoptive mother and an adoptee.  So she sees both sides of the coin- and is very open about her feelings and experience and may help answer this question for you as a start... there is a lot more information out there but this would be a good place to start.

 

http://www.rebeccahawkes.com/


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#65 of 107 Old 05-16-2012, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


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#66 of 107 Old 05-16-2012, 09:06 PM
 
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I guess that is the question you need to ask yourself.  I do not support donating genetic material.  If you could have them get you an embryo- I would be ok with that.  Have you considered doing that?  I know that is quite costly.

 

How will you feel if you do this and then they get pregnant?  You said she is younger then you right?  She has most likely 15 years of fertility left.... I don't remember if you said there was something diagnosed that made her unable to have kids?  Has she had her tubes tied or has he had a vasectomy?

 

In my case my adoptive parents tried for 8 years to get pregnant and waited on an adoption list for 5 years( this was 70s) and then adopted me and got pregnant 3 months after they got me.  My adoption was finalized 1 day before my mom gave birth to her son.

 

How would you feel about that?  After going through all of that and then they get to have their own biological child after all?

 

There is so much to think about with this- and I just encourage you to seek out as many opinions and read as much research as you can.  There is a lot out there if you seek it out and want it.  Which is what you are doing here- but I would also talk to other birthmothers and read their blogs.... see what they have to say what their experience has been as well.  I can link some for you if you like.  There is a wide variety of experiences out there to read about....

 

And to answer your question- no it is not ethical in my book. But I am sure you can find people to agree with you.  But since you asked... No I do not think it is.


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#67 of 107 Old 05-16-2012, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Mom31, due to complications in the c-section of her son she has had a complete hysterectomy.


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#68 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 03:19 AM
 
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If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


 The combination of the two is "donating" your child that you created. I don't have an issue with egg donation or surrogacy, but I think that placing your own child for adoption, particularly your child born of you and your husband (rather than, say, one conceived with your college boyfriend when you're 21 and not ready to settle down) and that you might otherwise raise yourselves, is different than egg donation. Like I said upthread, I think the issue is in terms of what is best for the child. Do you honestly think that it would be best for this child to be raised by your friends instead of you? I'm sure you think your friends are equally good parents as you, but do you really think it would be *preferable* for your child to be raised by them? And if not, do you think the situation is in that child's best interest?

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#69 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 04:39 AM
 
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If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?




Honestly, not at ALL trying to be hurtful, when I first read this sentence...the first question that pops into my head is "does this chick HAVE children!??" - but then, you do, two of them.

 

So I guess this thing that I feel is just inherent...this intense love and responsibility I felt for my children when they were born (even with my son's birth, which left me very depleted and very tired and sort of "out of it"...I never could have just handed him over to someone else) is not something everyone feels. I honestly cannot understand how a mother who already has children (so, who understands exactly what she is getting when she has a baby, knows about the cuteness of a two year old, this mindblowing intelligence and amazing mind of a four year old, etc etc) and who is in a stable, loving environment, could give up a baby that she made with her husband on purpose and grew in her womb for almost a year.....to be raised NOT far away, so she doesn't have constant, in your face reminders.....but near her, by someone she knows well. How can a loving, sane person do that without experiencing EXTREME emotional trauma??

 

I understand and praise you for your deep desire to heal a wound in your friend. I jsut feel like when you ask questions like the one above, you are being really naive. I understand not being immediately and deeply impacted and filled with love when you meet your babies...lots of women feel a delayed sense of intense connection with their babies. But you are already a mother...you know what comes after birth, after the first year, etc etc....I don't understand why you think it wouldn't be a big deal to separate yourself from that knowledge and give away a baby to this woman.

A baby is a chunk of you and a chunk of your beloved, mixed together and brought into the world. A purse or a lovely piece of art can be a gift, no matter how much you love them, they can be separated from you and you will be okay. But a baby? A baby is not a possession from which you can permanently sever ties. A baby, no matter how far away, no matter how deeply good your intentions, can NEVER truly be separated from you. That baby is a part of you and a part of your husband until the day you both draw your last breath and beyond...and then that baby grows up and has more babies...and for the rest of time, so long as the lineage of the child moves forward and the lineage of your own children does the same...your blood and that babies blood are linked. It's just what it is...and it's powerful. At least, to me it is.

Even in the shittiest of circumstances, where it's NOT the right time and the boyfriend is a douchebag who walked off when you got a positive pregnancy test and you're still in your freshman year of college and you would just be a crappy mom or whatever...EVEN THEN it's HEARTBREAKING to give up a baby.

I just can't imagine how damaging this could be for you. But maybe it wouldn't be. Maybe this is just where I am coming from. Maybe because I'm sitting here in the final days of my pregnancy, I have a skewed, hormonal idea of what this would be like for you....or, maybe where I am right now gives me much deeper clarity into the issue, who knows.

Even more than the thought of giving up my baby and not mothering him/her....the thought of giving up my husbands baby, the child of my true love....the sibling of my precious children...I couldn't. I wouldn't.

Would this be an open situation? Would everyone in the family, all of your friends, etc know what was going on? What the situation truly was?

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#70 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 06:11 AM
 
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If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


 The combination of the two is "donating" your child that you created. I don't have an issue with egg donation or surrogacy, but I think that placing your own child for adoption, particularly your child born of you and your husband (rather than, say, one conceived with your college boyfriend when you're 21 and not ready to settle down) and that you might otherwise raise yourselves, is different than egg donation. Like I said upthread, I think the issue is in terms of what is best for the child. Do you honestly think that it would be best for this child to be raised by your friends instead of you? I'm sure you think your friends are equally good parents as you, but do you really think it would be *preferable* for your child to be raised by them? And if not, do you think the situation is in that child's best interest?

 

Yeah, I really can't imagine someone being happy that they were donated or gifted to someone who couldn't have their own children after a hysterectomy. OP - your friends have a child. They may be unable to have more children, but they have a child. It is not your responsibility to heal their wounds, as a friend you can merely help support them through it.

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#71 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 06:13 AM
 
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If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


Because children, babies, people are not donations. Do you think selling babies is OK?

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#72 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 09:02 AM
 
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There is no reason to create a child- solely with the intention to give to someone else,  when there are already children in need of homes that your friend could adopt- children who are in foster care- or have parents who can truly not raise them.  This is very wrong to me on so many levels. 

 

I wish you would look at the big picture.  This cute baby you want to bring into the world is going to grow up- and someday the cute story you tell them about how you made them to give them to their adoptive mom- is going to not be so cute and sweet anymore....

 

Adoption is supposed to be about the child- providing for the needs of a child that is not able to stay with its original family  NOT about meeting the needs of someone who is not able to have more children.


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#73 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 09:04 AM
 
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Does your friend want a newborn baby?  Or would an older child be okay? 


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#74 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Does your friend want a newborn baby?  Or would an older child be okay? 

 

Well, that's a highly personal question, isn't it?


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#75 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 09:51 AM
 
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Well, that's a highly personal question, isn't it?

 

If you're thinking about offering to conceive and carry a baby for this person, you are going to have to ask, and answer, a large number of extremely personal questions. 

 

You are contemplating offering this woman an incredibly personal favor.  Shouldn't you be thinking, in detail, about what she needs and wants?

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#76 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I know what she wants, but it's not my place to answer personal questions about her and her wants.  See the difference?  Asking personal questions about me, a-okay.  Asking them about her, when she's not even in the conversation, not okay.


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#77 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 10:51 AM
 
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Lazurii, this thread is overflowing with personal information about your friend already, so much that it astounds me that "is she willing to take an older child?" Is the line you will not cross. You were willing to talk about her hysterectomy - for most people, *that* would be the bridge too far. I think it's absolutely right to feel that her privacy is a concern, what I don't understand is how that concern didn't stop you four pages ago.

I do not think that having a baby for your friend is a good idea. A baby is not a pan of brownies. Your friend is going through some difficult processes, involving pain and grief that no effort can remove. This process sucks, but it's part of healing. If you want to help, bake some bread and keep the kleenex handy. Write a prayer for her peace and healing and send it in a card. Help her open mail when Christmas letters come in from people who talk about getting pregnant at the drop of a hat. Wish her the best in her adoption process. Remember that whatever you do in bed with your husband is about you and him, not you and her.
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#78 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 12:59 PM
 
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Adoption is supposed to be about the child- providing for the needs of a child that is not able to stay with its original family  NOT about meeting the needs of someone who is not able to have more children.

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Lazurii, can you put yourself in the shoes of this hypothetical child? Can you honestly say that this would be in his or her best interests? Because the child is a vitally important player in this, and can't speak for him or herself.

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#79 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 04:24 PM
 
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Given that you said earlier that you haven't even brought up this idea of yours to her yet, I don't see how YOU can possibly know "what she wants" in this situation.  What people say they want in theory vs. a specific situation is often very different.  Lots of people are open to adoption, esp. a healthy newborn.  Most will not want to adopt a baby from a close friend by friend and husband specifically "for" them.  We've come a long way in removing the squick from adoption but I do think that will be disturbing for many people.  And really, asking if someone wants to adopt a newborn vs. older child is "too personal" but you discussing her infertility and feelings online and how weirded out you would be using her husband's sperm to conceive a child isn't?  I'd be willing to bet that your friend might be less open to your idea of saving her from the pain of secondary infertility by giving her one of your children than you think she might be.  But really?  It's between the four of you.  It will impact more people than that (extended family, your current children, your friendship, their extended family, their child) but since you don't seem willing to even acknowledge that aspect and are concentrating on biology, it doesn't matter.  Legally, what you propose is probably fine.  Just don't not expect a bit of weirdedoutness from other people about it

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#80 of 107 Old 05-17-2012, 08:11 PM
 
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It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children?
 


 
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#81 of 107 Old 05-18-2012, 05:39 AM
 
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It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children?
 

 

 

^At first glance, a truly wicked, stinging thing to say....but if you really examine the thought, I think it's what a lot of us (well, at lease me!) were trying to say.

OP, look at one of your existing two children. Now imagine giving one of them away as a gift, to a friend who is unable to conceive on her own. Couldn't do it, could you?  Now, imagine that it is going to be any different to make a baby with your husband and give that baby away....it's not going to be any different to you...and because this baby is staying "in your circle", it may take a while....days, weeks+ for it to sink in, but I think it's going to.

The baby you make with your spouse would not be "genetic material" to you, in the end, any more than you would call one of your existing children your "genetic material". Seriously. Look at your daughter and say the words "There is my genetic material playing on the floor, what's so wrong with giving her away!" - she's not yours because you have had the chance to know her....she's yours because she has belonged to you since the first time you heard her little heart beat, isn't that right?

My fear is that you would trick yourself into believing this would get easier and easier to "get over" with time....so you would ignore the screaming voice inside of you and give the baby to your friend even thought it was really tearing you up inside to do so. Can you imagine watching your baby growing up as your friends child? That is the stuff of nightmares, right there. I can't imagine.


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#82 of 107 Old 05-18-2012, 06:14 AM
 
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Here is the thing that bothers me.  I could imagine watching my biological child growing up as my friend's child.  That was before I adopted.  Now that I am an adoptive parent, I know that emotions run crazy on all sides of the triad.  For me, it isn't about the "giving away."  I am not sure if I think that is ethical, but not all adopted children feel the sense of loss others are concerned about.  What concerns me it that intentionally bringing a child the world for this purpose is creating an emotional mine field for two families.

 

Maybe I am adding nothing new to the discussion.  Maybe emotions run hot because of the genetic link, I don't know.

 

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^At first glance, a truly wicked, stinging thing to say....but if you really examine the thought, I think it's what a lot of us (well, at lease me!) were trying to say.

. Can you imagine watching your baby growing up as your friends child? That is the stuff of nightmares, right there. I can't imagine.

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#83 of 107 Old 05-18-2012, 08:29 AM
 
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I was going to link a blog post but think I will pm it directly with the OP.    If you are interested in reading it the Title is

 

Things I wish I had known when I was considering adoption....

 

and is written by a birthmother.  You can PM me for the link.

 

2.  I wish I'd known that the child will probably not be grateful to have been relinquished. Most adoptees report feeling abandoned by their first mothers. While they may be glad to have been adopted, they are most definitely not happy to have been relinquished. (In other words, they see their adoption as two separate events: being given up and being taken in. The second is warm and fuzzy, while the first is full of hurt.) It's very hard to know that the most painful choice you make for your child might not even be appreciated by them. There are no guarantees that your child will love you for what you've done. Can you live with that? Don't fall into the "martyr" mindset that you are doing something beautiful and noble for your child - you might be disappointed if the eventual adult doesn't see it that way.

 

 

This is an excerpt.  This also starts to answer your question Smithie.


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#84 of 107 Old 05-18-2012, 09:58 AM
 
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I think this is a really nice thought that you've had, but if you haven't had any experience with adoption, you might not be aware of how painful it can be for everyone involved.  I hope that you take all of these words to heart, and do a lot more research on the feelings of adult adoptees -- adoption ethics also come into play here, beyond just figuring out the logistics of the thing... There are certain romantic notions we are fed about adoption, but one has to look deeper, to what each situation really means.  This situation, like others have mentioned, can sound very loving and giving and "normal" in this era of surrogacy and IVF and egg and sperm donation, etc, but it's very true, that creating a person to give as a gift just isn't ok on any level.  It's a lovely thought, but listen to the pain that adults who have been separated from their birth mothers have to deal with -- just because not every adoptee feels the pain consciously, doesn't mean that it isn't in there somewhere, or that you should roll the dice with how this person you're considering creating might someday feel about it....

There are so many ways you can support your friend in their quest to add to their family -- she's lucky to have a friend like you. hugs.

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#85 of 107 Old 05-18-2012, 10:02 AM
 
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didn't mean to imply that all adoptees are walking around in pain, or are unaware of their own pain -- some adoptees seem to have no issues whatsoever with their family circumstance, and certainly how we walk our children through it makes a huge difference, but the odds of the child, in this case, having painful feelings about all of this is pretty high, in my educated opinion....   just wanting to clarify so the conversation doesn't veer off the rails because of my statement, lol...

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#86 of 107 Old 05-18-2012, 11:09 AM
 
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#87 of 107 Old 05-19-2012, 02:48 AM
 
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There is also a huge difference between "I knew I could not raise you, so because I loved you, I chose to find you a family who could" and "I loved my friend so much that I purposefully created you to gift to her." The first can be all about the baby, the second cannot.


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#88 of 107 Old 05-19-2012, 05:34 AM
 
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There is also a huge difference between "I knew I could not raise you, so because I loved you, I chose to find you a family who could" and "I loved my friend so much that I purposefully created you to gift to her." The first can be all about the baby, the second cannot.




SO vitally important to consider! I was just coming here to say this...but you said it in far fewer words than I would have used, hahahahah.

 

OP in a "typical" adoption situation, there is a birth mother who finds out she is having a baby and for whatever set of reasons, sometimes complicated and sometimes simple, she cannot in good conscience keep the baby because she feels deeply that her situation is shitty and cannot be made good for a child.

Looking a 17, 18+ year old in his/her puzzled face as they say "why??" is probably a bit easier when you can say "I was alone, I had nobody. I had no money, I was barely making ends meet. I knew you would have such a hard, hard life with me...I was just in a different place then and would have been such a terrible mother. Then there were these lovely people, they longed for a baby of their own and they were so nice. I met with them and I knew they would have the money to feed you good food and that the woman would be able to stay home with you and give you all her time and love and that she would be patient with you and would bake cookies and be such a good mom...I felt like I had to give you a shot at a better life than the one I had waiting for you if I kept you. I loved you then, I loved you when I met you face to face...and I love you now. I will always carry a sadness in me for having given you to another woman to raise...but I did it because I truly thought it was best for you"  - That's pretty fucking compelling. A kid in his/her late teens can grasp this...even if it doesn't heal their hurt or really satisfy their sense of wondering how their life may have been different...at least they can see the sense in "I didn't make you on purpose, you were a surprise...I wasn't ready, MY BABY DESERVED BETTER THAN I COULD GIVE.

 

 

But consider this situation. So, you are going to get pregnant. Everyone in your life is going to know what's going on....both sets of grandparents, all the aunts and uncles and cousins....your kids are going to have to know, because, um, wow what a mind-job that would be, if you didn't tell them and then just didn't have a baby at the end of your pregnancy.....so, from the get go, EVERYONE in this kids life is in cahoots...has formed a FORCED (by you) conspiracy to keep this information from your/your friends baby, in order to wait for the "right time" to reveal this information.....

 

But when is the "right time"?? Not that YOU would get to decide that. Not your kid, after all, right? You reveal this too soon and you will turn this kids life on it's end...TOTALLY mess the kid up in his/her path to discovering his/her identity and place in the world. But...if you wait to long....then it's "Wait, are you fucking serious....ALL THIS TIME Auntie Lazuri was my real mother? EVERYONE around me has known this about me and never said anything and just let me believe this lie?"  So then the kid is looking at you with that puzzled look, saying "why??" and what comes out of your mouth??

Not some super compelling story of "my baby was too beautiful and too precious to me to be raised in my situation...so I found better, because you deserved better" - no, this kid doesn't get that. This kid gets "Yeah, we had a couple of babies already, but your mom only had one and couldn't have more on her own and didn't have the money really to adopt...so your birth father and I, Uncle Lazuri, agreed to make you for them because we knew that they would be great parents, had everything they needed to care for you and would love you so much".

 

Kid: "But didn't you love me?"

 

You: "Well yes of course and we were so sad to give you away....but we did, even though we didn't have to, because while we did love you, we loved our friends too, so much....so we were able to turn off our love for you just enough to make it bearable to give you away...not for a better life, but to give my friend a better life."

 

^This last part is obviously not what you would actually say, but I don't think there is anything you COULD say that wouldn't end up sounding exactly like that.

I think if I had been told this kind of thing as a teenager, I would have been really pissed off.

I think that even as much as I'm concerned about how this would effect you and your husband....now that I'm thinking of how this could truly effect the baby, I'm pretty sure this is a terrible, terrible idea. Not to mention that it's kind of selfish to drag the rest of your family into this. Your parents are grandparents, but have to act like their not and are forced to hide this and their deep love for the child? Your children are aware of some weird, murky situation involving this baby....but what? How many times, with you hugely pregnant in the grocery store or wherever, would some stranger say to your kid "Oooo, you're going to be a big sister soon, huh!?? How EXCITING!" - how do you handle that with young kids?

I think this is a recipe for disaster. I think you handle this in an open, truthful way and you hurt people and drag your extended family into a hurtful situation...or you handle this with lies and deceit (Oh, I'm just acting as a surrogate for her) and you kick that can down the road....you make it hurtful and terrible later on, instead of now and all along.


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#89 of 107 Old 05-19-2012, 07:55 AM
 
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It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children?

 

This is a compelling point if your ideology tells you that it's shared genes that create the parent/child bond, rather than the experiences of living together in a parent/child relationship. If you don't think that shared genes are a vital element in the parent/child relationship, then it's pretty much just hostile nonsense. 

 

But Lazuri, pumpkingirl does raise a very important issue. Since you and your friend live close together, an adoption plan would drag both extended families into the decision on some level. You may be fine adopting out a baby. She may be fine with an open adoption where she sees the birthparents a lot. But if either of your husbands, any of your parents, or any of the kids turns out at some point to have a major problem with it (and that's a lot of potential actors to take the starring role in the Who-Is-Baby's-Mama-Drama!), both of your families could be negatively affected. 

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#90 of 107 Old 05-19-2012, 08:08 AM
 
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It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children? This is a compelling point if your ideology tells you that it's shared genes that create the parent/child bond, rather than the experiences of living together in a parent/child relationship. If you don't think that shared genes are a vital element in the parent/child relationship, then it's pretty much just hostile nonsense.

It's really not 'just hostile nonsense' Smithie. Adopted children, even if they are placed at minutes old, have a history with their first family. Yes genetics do play a role, much as you'd like to deny it. A child conceived using donor eggs/sperm might wonder about their biological relations as well - but would hopefully be told about the donor material in a sensitive way. Adopted children are different - they were born to another family, and relinquished (for an infinite number of reasons). Parental bonds are most certainly formed between the adoptee and the adoptive parents - but it's not possible to just pretend the child's first family just simply doesn't exist. Even the most amazing parental relationship with adoptive patents does not erase their past, or their first family. You can't change a persons history.
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