Don't know where else to post this; I want to have a baby for my friend - Page 4 - Mothering Forums
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#91 of 107 Old 05-19-2012, 10:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children?

 

This is a compelling point if your ideology tells you that it's shared genes that create the parent/child bond, rather than the experiences of living together in a parent/child relationship. If you don't think that shared genes are a vital element in the parent/child relationship, then it's pretty much just hostile nonsense.

 

Unfortunately for your viewpoint, what the parents think (birth or adoptive) doesn't mean the adoptee will feel the same way.  Nor does it guarantee that anyone's feelings and/or "ideology" won't shift over time with life events.  Boxing people in, and demanding that they decide between either or, and thinking that it's just all a matter of ideology?  Now *that* is hostile nonsense.

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#92 of 107 Old 05-20-2012, 01:06 PM
 
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I wasn't saying that the viewpoint that sharing genes creates a parent/child bond in the absence of any other connection is nonsense. Or hostile. But Lazurii doesn't subscribe to that viewpoint, and this constant stream of "but it's YOUR baby! YOUR baby! Because DNA! You could grow a baby in your womb and be a surrogate, that's fine, but giving away a baby you share genes with is like giving away your five-year-old!" is disrespectful. It is both hostile and nonsensical to make an argument to a person that is based on an ideological premise you don't they don't accept. 

 

Several people, including Tigerchild just now, and pumpkingirl earlier, have made much more useful points - what Lazurii feels now many change, and what her extended family and the extended adoptive family and the adopted child and all of the biokids involved feel may not match the way she feels. The situation she's proposing to facilitate would be emotionally complex in all likelihood. I don't think that's a sufficient reason for a child not to be born, but that's just my opinion. 

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#93 of 107 Old 05-20-2012, 01:24 PM
 
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Smithie...  please read this.

 

http://vsn.org/trauma.html

 

There is a lot of information available to help you better understand the needs of your children- if you seek it out and choose to educate yourself so you can best support them.

 

Here are some stats.

 

  • In a study of American adolescents, the Search Institute found that 72 percent of adopted adolescents wanted to know why they were adopted, 65 percent wanted to meet their birth parents, and 94 percent wanted to know which birth parent they looked like. (American Adoption Congress, 1996)
  • The psychological literature has established that the desire of 60 to 90 percent of adoptees wanting to obtain identifying information regarding their biological parents is a normative aspect of being adopted. (American Adoption Congress, 1996)
  •  

What are the Attitudes of Triad Members Towards Searching?

  • Sachdev's 1991 study found that a substantial majority of birth mothers (85.5%) and adoptees (81.1%) supported access by adult adoptees to identifying information about their birth parents. (CWLA, 1998)

mdcblog5.gifsaynovax.giffambedsingle2.gifhomebirth.jpg

 

 

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#94 of 107 Old 05-20-2012, 01:47 PM
 
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There is a lot of information available to help you better understand the needs of your children- if you seek it out and choose to educate yourself so you can best support them.

 

Christians say the same kind of thing when they give me their literature. "If only you really wanted what was best for your children, if only you chose to educate yourself, you'd believe as I do!" guilty.gif

 

The hell of it is, right now you're not saying anything I disagree with. Of course children want to know why they were adopted. Of course they want to know what their birth parents looked like (and which one they take after). Of course many want to meet their birth parents (I think that number will rise higher than 65% in the next generation). OF COURSE most adult adoptees think they should have the right to access their birthparents' information! OF COURSE most birthparents would welcome a change to see how the kid turned out, and maybe build a relationship with them!

 

What that shows is that information about their biological origins (or endpoints) is incredibly compelling to most people. You want to know your birthparents. You want to know your birthchildren. Why do you think I don't recognize this? Simply because I distinguish it from the relationships created through decades of lived experience? 

 

Unless I've misread you, you object strongly to the idea of Lazurii conceiving a child that she intends to be adopted. Even though the plan she has in mind is the most open adoption imaginable, you think that the child would be somehow injured by being raised in an adoptive family. That's where we part ways on the issue. 

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#95 of 107 Old 05-20-2012, 04:21 PM
 
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So I wish to just offer a few words. I wrote my suggestion on day 6 of having three children at the same time with chicken pox. So I do apologize if the words were poorly chosen and if I, especially as a moderator, was not entirely supportive. I guess I am human too (especially under these conditions!)

 

I will say, though, that I do hold a belief system that is borne of many, many years of life experience, and many, many relationships with members of all sides of the triad. That belief system is that a baby begins the bonding process in utero. S/he learns the sounds of the mother's body, her voice, her taste, the way she moves her body, the rhythms. The baby's nervous system is built in utero; the "wiring" occurs in synch with the mom and in response to her chemical and physiological environment. At birth, the baby is very familiar with mama and finds her quite consonant with life up until that moment.  There is already attachment, begun when the baby was able to experience sensations. All the studies on brain development and brain chemistry show that there is already a register of "shock" to the system when that familiar equilibrium is disturbed after birth, through separation from the mother or other major stressors.

 

And sometimes it is necessary that a baby be separated and experience this. In some situations it is not. But it is a disturbance. It is not necessarily any less of a disturbance than it would be for an older child who has had more years with the family. One never knows which babies and children will experience things in which way.

 

Some babies & children are incredibly resilient. Some aren't very resilient at all. There is no test to see which type of baby you have on hand.
 

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#96 of 107 Old 05-20-2012, 04:36 PM
 
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I agree that separation from the women who bore you is a shock to the system of an infant. I think that a baby gestated by a surrogate has the same potential to experience that shock as a baby who is gestated by their genetic mother. But the same thing that an older child experiences? Not on your life. You can call both separations a loss, and address both losses with respect, without equating an infant given out of loving hands into loving hands shortly after its birth with a neglected five-year-old dragged off by the cops as his mother screams and cries for him. I know which kid I'd rather be. 

 

Edited to add: And I'd rather be either of them than never exist at all. 

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#97 of 107 Old 05-20-2012, 06:48 PM
 
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It's alright if we (many of us) disagree on this point. There are many in the field that believe many different views.
 


 
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#98 of 107 Old 05-20-2012, 07:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

 

Edited to add: And I'd rather be either of them than never exist at all. 

 

Are you saying that every fertile woman should feel guilty over every period she has because of the loss of the existence of the child that might have been conceived?  I find that point of view terrifying in its implications (and yes, I know there are people out there that feel it).

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#99 of 107 Old 05-21-2012, 03:11 AM
 
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 I read Smittie's words as regards to an already existing pregnancy. 

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Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post

 

Are you saying that every fertile woman should feel guilty over every period she has because of the loss of the existence of the child that might have been conceived?  I find that point of view terrifying in its implications (and yes, I know there are people out there that feel it).

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#100 of 107 Old 05-21-2012, 04:38 AM
 
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Huh? No, of course not. Nobody is obliged to make babies, ever, for any reason. 

 

It's the "it's not fair to bring a child into the world in these circumstances!" rhetoric that bothers me. That seems like a more appropriate position to take when the parents have too many mouths to feed already and no help is forthcoming, when the fetus has been determined to carry a dread disease that will make its life short and painful, etc. etc. There are situations where it does seem unfair to me to begin a life that will be full of suffering. But adoption doesn't fall into that category. 

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#101 of 107 Old 05-21-2012, 09:27 AM
 
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I suspect that the reason why people are encouraging the OP to be cautious is that what the OP is proposing is creating a child for the purpose of adoption, NOT creating a child through surrogacy. Placing a child for adoption, no matter how open or how loving or how child-focused everyone is creates a loss, a wound of sorts, for that child. Now, depending on the child that loss might be HUGE and cause them many problems in life, or it might be so small that they hardly even think about it. I doubt any (or to avoid an absolute, i'll say i doubt many) adoptees feel NO loss at all. So you are creating a child who will be hurt by your decision. Yes, i suppose you could say "but the child would not have been created otherwise!" and i guess you have a point. It still doesnt seem like the best solution to the OPs friend's infertility.

 

So...the OP would not be a surrogate, no matter how much one can claim "well she is a surrogate only she is also the egg donor and the husband is the sperm donor!"...because frankly, she could get pg tomorrow by her husband on accident, and THAT wouldnt be a surro baby. Is it only because she would say "ok we're trying for John and Sally tonight! lets get pg!" that makes the child born of both of them, full sib to their own children, created within their marriage NOT their child? That seems to be a very fine line. Legally, their situation would be VERY different than most surrogacy arrangements, and i doubt they would find a reputable surro agency/lawyer who would touch this with a ten foot pole. At least in a gestational surrogacy the OPs friends would be protected, and the OP would NOT be able to keep the child if she decided to, but in this situation the OP would have all the rights as any other mother contemplating adoption.
 


Katherine, single homeschooling mom to Boy Genius (17) geek.gif  Thing One (6) and Thing Two (6) fencing.gif and one outgoing Girl (12) bikenew.gif and hoping for more through foster care and adoption homebirth.jpgadoptionheart-1.gif 
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#102 of 107 Old 05-21-2012, 10:44 AM
 
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 At least in a gestational surrogacy the OPs friends would be protected, and the OP would NOT be able to keep the child if she decided to, but in this situation the OP would have all the rights as any other mother contemplating adoption.

 

Honestly, that's one of the things that squicks me the most about gestational surrogacy. We've created an enforceable legal arrangement wherein a woman can carry a baby for nine months, want to keep it, and have it forcibly taken away from her. Inclined as I am towards parenthood as a role that develops through the experience of nurturing a child rather than a genetic gotcha, I'm more comfortable when surrogate mothers have the same rights as other birthmothers. I don't think anybody, including people who have donated genetic material to the effort, should be entitled to legal certainty about what a woman who is planning to place her baby will actually do when the baby comes. 

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#103 of 107 Old 05-21-2012, 11:47 AM
 
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I think all the comments I've ready (skimmed a couple pages in there) cautioning OP make sense from an ethical standpoint.

 

To simplify it, I'd think about the number of lives implicated in each scenario, and what the possible negative outcomes could be for each person. To my mind, only the first two are ethically responsible choices.

 

1. If your friend & her husband remain childless, they are negatively affected but only they bear the pain. 

 

2. If they adopt a child who needs a home, all three will face challenges, but the outcome is potentially positive for all three.

 

3. If they find a surrogate (someone other than OP) with a stranger's egg, you have brought in a total stranger (or possibly 2) into the equation. There are definite possible negative outcomes for any stranger involved (even if "just" donating an egg). For these reasons I do not support IVF or surrogacy.

 

4. If you, OP, act as surrogate with a strangers genetic material, then you friend is likewise dragging you into their situation. It is fundamentally not fair or ethical to accept your offer to act as surrogate given the emotional & physical demands that would be put upon you. It would be better that they remain childless, as painful as that may be for them. This doesn't address the use of a stranger's genetic material, which I believe also raises ethical issues.

 

5. If OP acts as surrogate with your own egg, particularly if with your husband's sperm, then this is likely the worse possible outcome. It would carry the potential to negatively impact you, your husband, the child to be given to your friend, and your own child/ren. To pull all of you into their infertility would be a hugely unethical act, not to mention simply selfish & unkind from a friend-to-friend perspective.

 

I would strongly caution against your getting involved. Sorry if this all sounds harsh. But I think if you look at it simply from the perspective of how many people are involved & who these people are, it can make the decision less mysterious.


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#104 of 107 Old 05-21-2012, 01:31 PM
 
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T2009- the couple already has a child.  They are not childless- which just makes this whole idea even more complicated.
 


mdcblog5.gifsaynovax.giffambedsingle2.gifhomebirth.jpg

 

 

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#105 of 107 Old 05-21-2012, 02:16 PM
 
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Oops. Totally misread that from the first post! I still think I'd stand by most of my previous post. Of course, it adds another layer of effects, but I still think there are two basically ethical options for OP's friend. Adopting a child who needs a home & who could be integrated into the family could be a wonderful choice. DH's family is mixed bio & adopted children & it's challenging at times (or was in the past, rarely so now) but the siblings are all very close. 

 

Adoption fees would be nothing compared to the emotional costs on everyone together if they go with any other option. OP, I really like the other suggestions you've gotten to help fundraise for your friend to raise the money to pay for the adoption fees. A close friend of my SIL did just that & all her friends helped out.


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#106 of 107 Old 05-23-2012, 10:58 AM
 
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moving to Parenting
 


 
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#107 of 107 Old 05-25-2012, 06:58 AM
 
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I've read all the previous posts, and was so interested in all the dissenting opinions.

 

I just wanted to chime in as a mom who previously suffered from secondary infertility and who has a friend who made an offer to carry a child for us.

 

My DH and I had one daughter who was conceived the old fashioned way after about 6 months of trying.  Had no idea that TTC #2 would be so grueling, expensive, miserable... you pick your horrifying adjective.  almost 2 years later, we'd been though 17 cycles of ART, including about 12 IUIs, clomid, multiple injectible medications, one cancelled IVF, one failed IVF, 3 miscarriages, and a disrupted domestic adoption (we went across the country to get the newborn girl, met her and the mother in the hospital a 3 hours post- delivery and the mom decided to parent the next day).  It was AWFUL.  And NO better or easier because we had a child already... just different.  While we were SO thankful for her and grateful that we were parents even if we were never able to conceive again, we also couldn't opt out of kid/baby related things in life to regroup and recover for a while when all the IF issues made it excruciating to be around our fertile friends.

 

Anyway, fast forward to my friend's offer.  She had 3 kids already, close together, and had extremely easy, healthy pregnancies and deliveries.  She offered- wholeheartedly from what I could tell- to be a surrogate for my DH and I if we needed.  Happily for us, we actually concieved naturally the next month, but I felt SO WONDERFUL about her offer.  The very idea that she'd consider it (and she is not, by any stretch, a "best friend") and to think that- when we had all but given up hope- there was an option (especially after losing so much money on IF treatment and the adoption process) was like an injection of optimism and hope.

 

That said, there is NO way I'd have considered it if she had wanted to have her own genetic child with her DH and then have me adopt it. I would still have been touched and moved by her offer, but it would have been a "no-brainer" that we would never have considered it for so many of the complicated and emotional reasons discussed above.  I was lucky that DH and I both had functioning gametes and could have provided her with embryos to implant.  Had my eggs been out of the picture, the only way we'd have gone forward would be with DH's sperm and donated eggs.  If we were both unable to provide gametes, we'd have tried for embryo adoption.

 

I'd have been super confused and a bit put off if she'd wanted to bear us a child who was the genetic material of her and her DH... but no less touched by the offer.  Just definitely NOT willing to take her up on it.  FWIW, the surrogate, if embryos are implated, has minimal if any medication and prep to do.  Especially if no eggs are being harvested from the potential adoptive mom (in which case the surrogate may take some meds to get their cycles in sinc so that embryos can be implanted at the right time without having to freeze them). 

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