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#121 of 196 Old 07-18-2013, 02:26 PM
 
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I just found this thread, so i'm jumping in a little late. I haven't read all the comments but i have read most of them. I've noticed one common theme of "eating disorders"--i personally see this as being a huge factor in the obesity epidemic. A lot of people don't seem to understand eating disorders, though, and i think this is because they are typically more emotionally-based than anything else and our emotional intelligence as a society is pretty darn low.

Eating disorders seem to primarily come about because food is equated with love. Maybe the person hasn't recieved healthy love so they look to food for that sense of being loved--that warm, happy, sensual, blissful feeling that can come about from various sources, one of which is food. When people do not feel loved and don't feel adequate enough to receive enough of it, food is an easy, safe and reliable option for that very much needed feeling. Food will not reject you, call you names, stomp on your feelings or traumatize you.

I was anorexic as a teenager and no one truly understood how to help me. I saw a nutritionist who gave me meal plans, but i knew how and what i should eat, that wasnt the issue at all. I was obsessed with nutrition due to the eating disorder so i understood what would be good for me to eat and how much. The problem was psychological, rooted in the very real experience of a lack of love. This sense of lack made me believe i didnt deserve love and since food creates a loving feeling i wouldn't allow myself to eat much at all. I saw different therapists but they also didn't understand that fundamental root issue of how nourishing ourselves is a loving act, so if you don't love yourself or don't believe you deserve love any food issues you may have needs to address those emotional beliefs. I ended up having to stay in the hospital for a month because my weight was so extremely low it was making my heart pump at a dangerously low rate. I was forced to lie in bed and take in a high number of calories, mostly from nutritional supplements. During that month, i started to feel loved because that perceived need to keep myself from eating food was silenced. I was able to enjoy food for the first time in a long time. So while the doctors felt it was good enough just to make sure my body was strong, i knew that i needed to allow myself to accept the love that comes from nourishing myself. Once i left the hospital, it was very difficult to stick with eating normal and i had my ups and downs. The reality was i didnt have the emotional support and that is something i have struggled with ever since. I am at a normal weight now, have been for years, but the only way it came about was through learning to love myself and allow myself to be loved.

So when it comes to obesity, it seems that these people also feel a sense of lack, an emotional hole that they don't know how to fill. Maybe this is not the case with every obese person, but i would bet that the majority are that way due to emotional reasons. They look to food to fill that void and which foods are naturally better at helping us feel warm and satiated? Simple sugars, white flour, candy, chocolate, ice cream, cookies, crackers, donuts, etc. All the foods that make us fat, make us crave more of it after we eat it, make us lethargic and less likely to want to exercise. Its an endless cycle. If a person felt loved from eating broccoli they probably wouldnt be overweight but broccoli simply doesnt create that warm and fuzzy feeling like the other foods i mention do. So while it wouldnt hurt for people to be more educated about nutrition, the emotional factor is a huge hurdle that i dont see getting enough emphasis, probably due to a lack of awareness.
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#122 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 08:03 AM
 
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PM... Wow. I agree with you 1000% percent and couldn't have said it better. You just articulated how I have felt for thirty years! :'-)

Just the other day I broke down at my midwife's office because she told me I shouldn't drink stevia sweetened sodas during my pregnancy (because they create sugar cravings). I am dealing with gestational diabetes and have finally been feeling like I've started to eat "normally" and she was telling me I had a sugar addiction. I was devasted. She didn't understand why I was getting so upset and kept telling me to see a nutritionist. Like I don't know anything about nutrition! I could write a book, really.

After I left her office, I wondered why I got so upset and realized it was because I didn't feel acknowledged for how far I've come. Once again I was being told I am, "not good enough". I absolutely know that was not her intention. She just doesn't know. As you said, PM, most have no idea how to deal with eating disorders. We mostly have to go it alone.

Obesity is just a symptom. Sugar is a symptom. All manifestations of addiction are symptoms in a whole society of people who have somehow lost themselves. You can't "judge" someone into changing. Only compassion, love, and understanding can help.

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#123 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 08:22 AM
 
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I just found this thread, so i'm jumping in a little late. I haven't read all the comments but i have read most of them. I've noticed one common theme of "eating disorders"--i personally see this as being a huge factor in the obesity epidemic.

So when it comes to obesity, it seems that these people also feel a sense of lack, an emotional hole that they don't know how to fill. Maybe this is not the case with every obese person, but i would bet that the majority are that way due to emotional reasons.

 

While I agree that eating disorders are an issue, the rates of obesity in the US started going up when the dietary recommendations were changed. I therefore think that the recommendations are part of the problem -- we are told to eat food that doesn't work for MANY people, and then surrounded by food choices that don't work for anybody.

 

Our society is much more warm and fuzzy than most of the past -- for example in the 50s men were allowed to beat their wives and the handicapped had no rights. The notion that the primary cause of the ever increasing rates of obesity is an "emotional hole" doesn't jive for me.

 


 

There is NO agreement about what a "healthy" diet is. I completely disagree with the FDA's recommendations, because they made me fat and sick. Lots of people disagree that the way I eat is healthy because I eat meat.

 

Yesterday I was at the book store looking for a new Paleo cookbook. I was in a section of cookbooks based on different diets, and it was insane how many different ways of eating some segment considers healthy -- vegetarian, vegan, raw, juicing, low fat, low carb, gluten free, sugar free, dairy free; diets to reduce inflammation, protect against cancer, have a flat belly, bulk up muscles, reduce calories and on and on and on.

 

These diets conflict with each other. Its really no wonder people have trouble with their weight and can't figure out what to do.

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#124 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 08:29 AM
 
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PM and dalia, you are both so right! While nutritional knowledge is essential, knowledge alone can't get us or keep us on a healthy path. We are a whole person -- body, mind, emotions, and spirit -- and without getting at the root reasons for our unhealthy approaches to food, trying to apply the knowledge is like trying to row a boat upstream -- like fighting against ourselves every step of the way.

 

Dd1 doesn't understand why I say my yoga helps me get connected to my center, and that's what is helping me lose weight. She just thinks I'm burning more calories and eating less, and that's why the weight is coming off -- which is true on the surface -- but the reason why this is no longer a struggle for me is because of my growing sense that I, just as I am, just where I am, without any more food, money, friends, or what-have-you, am already fully adequate, fully loved, and fully connected to everything I need.

 

I feel like I'm being fed while I'm just sitting very still and breathing. This is totally different from in the past when my "superego" mind would be trying to force me to limit my intake of food while my "child" mind was screaming and rolling on the floor because of a total sense of being deprived of things I needed.

 

I feel like all the different parts of me are on the same page -- unified -- and that is why I feel such a strong assurance that I won't be yo-yoing back into a fat person several months from now.


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#125 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 08:30 AM
 
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 A while back, dh brought home a Marie Calendar pecan pie, and I really wanted some but not too much.

 

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The other day, dh baked a great big huge cinnamon roll and iced it. The last couple of mornings, I've cut off a tiny piece of the roll to eat with my milk and coffee. I just figure that if I'm craving something so sweet, starchy, and fattening, it's better to have it in the morning than at night.

 

Your husband is sabotaging you. He is making sure that you have foods around you that make it more difficult for you to lose weight AND KEEP IT OFF.

 

Throw the food away, and tell him to bring you flowers. He's being a jerk, and you aren't seeing it for what it is. He is keeping you in a state of cravings, but you can put an end to it.


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#126 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 08:45 AM
 
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Your husband is sabotaging you. He is making sure that you have foods around you that make it more difficult for you to lose weight AND KEEP IT OFF.

Throw the food away, and tell him to bring you flowers. He's being a jerk, and you aren't seeing it for what it is. He is keeping you in a state of cravings, but you can put an end to it.

The world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie. For many people, the challenge is not avoidance, it's moderation. I know how to quit sugar for a year and to binge on it for a year. What I struggle with is feeling like its "okay" to have a sliver of pie or a piece of a cinnamon roll. But it is okay. It's okay!!

I don't think your husband is a jerk. He is human and has a different experience. Why should he be restricted? It doesn't seem like he's being over the top, but really, there's no way to know much about him and to make a judgement call from one post. Sounds to me like you are doing great.
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#127 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 09:21 AM
 
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The world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie. For many people, the challenge is not avoidance, it's moderation. I know how to quit sugar for a year and to binge on it for a year. What I struggle with is feeling like its "okay" to have a sliver of pie or a piece of a cinnamon roll. But it is okay. It's okay!!

I don't think your husband is a jerk. He is human and has a different experience. Why should he be restricted? It doesn't seem like he's being over the top, but really, there's no way to know much about him and to make a judgement call from one post. Sounds to me like you are doing great.

I agree. I suppose the husband *could* be sabotaging, but there's no way to know from one pie "a while back" and one cinnamon roll "the other day." That could mean that 6 months ago be brought the pie home and last week he made the cinnamon roll. Doesn't sound like sabotage to me, but rather being incredibly supportive most of the time and then very occasionally indulging. And the OP seems to be doing a great job figuring out how to indulge in a reasonable manner, and how to succeed even when confronted by tempting foods.

If my partner were to adopt a strict diet, I would support him almost all the time, but I wouldn't agree to never, ever have tempting foods around ever again. Birthdays happen, holidays happen -- I hope I wouldn't be labeled a "jerk" for making the very occasional sweet.

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#128 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 09:44 AM
 
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The world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie.

 

 

In her examples of when she uses calorie counting to help eat in moderation, she doesn't mention anything fun or social that she has chosen to do. It isn't her child's birthday cake, or a special outing with her women friends. It isn't indulging in a regional specialty while on a vacation somewhere exciting. She is eating food that is fundamentally bad both for her health and for weight maintenance alone in her kitchen, because her husband left the food around.

 

This is a woman who was morbidly obese, and while the world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie, her home doesn't need to be.

 

Nothing in the posts said anything about the husband being supportive. The only mention of him is bringing in foods that cause cravings, and that he is overweight. May be he is uncomfortable with her weight loss because he feels it puts pressure to deal with his own unhealthy eating. 

 

(BTW, I used to be morbidly obese, I lost a bunch of weight, and then regained it, as almost everyone who loses weight does. And I've learned that I cannot have that crap in my house. If my DH didn't get that, I end the marriage over it. This is a life and death issue -- fat kills. I don't demand that any one in my family limit their eating in any way -- but they have to get treats when they are out or in small sizes and not leave them around, which honestly, it a heck of a lot healthier for everyone.)

 

More than a 1/3 of American adults are obese, and another 1/3 are overweight. Only about a 1/3 of the adult population of the US is in their healthy weight range. Since 2/3 of the population has trouble with their weight, you would think we could get over blaming them or saying they have holes in them and get serious about the fact that our culture is seriously off. The American way of eating, with cinnamon rolls and pecan pie everywhere, is a killer.


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#129 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 10:19 AM
 
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The world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie. For many people, the challenge is not avoidance, it's moderation. I know how to quit sugar for a year and to binge on it for a year. What I struggle with is feeling like its "okay" to have a sliver of pie or a piece of a cinnamon roll. But it is okay. It's okay!!

I don't think your husband is a jerk. He is human and has a different experience. Why should he be restricted? It doesn't seem like he's being over the top, but really, there's no way to know much about him and to make a judgement call from one post. Sounds to me like you are doing great.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Yes, my husband and I are both obese. I feel like my perspective on food has changed radically and his is changing more gradually, so I'm not going to claim that he has totally healthy reasons for purchasing a pecan pie or baking a cinnamon roll, but I honestly don't see it as an attempt to sabotage me, or as a reason to end the marriage.

 

Dh did just recently get fully on-board with me regarding my insistence that we needed to quit bringing pop into the house, and there may very well come a time when we won't bring any refined sugars, or foods made with refined sugars, into the house, either. Just as I have a couple of friends who reached a point where they decided they needed to give up caffeine, and I'm open to the possibility that at some point, I may decide it's time to give up my morning coffee, too. I'm just not there yet on either point.

 

At this time, I do find it more beneficial to go ahead and indulge my desire to eat something sweet -- but simply to exercise control over the time when I do this and the quantity that I eat. Whereas I used to feel like I needed a large quantity, I've discovered that enjoying a "sliver" with my morning coffee is now fully sufficient. And it's not every morning, either. Most mornings, I will have something like a carrot or apple with a serving of peanut butter, a salad with a little salmon or tuna for protein, or a small serving of leftovers from last night's dinner.

 

And actually, sitting down and eating an entire sweet red pepper is every bit as blissful to me as eating a cinnamon roll. We just can't always afford the peppers, which I guess brings us back to the aforementioned dilemma of people with less money often turning to starchy foods to fill their bellies cheaply, and this is definitely a reality that my own family is trying to navigate. One way is by always having a pan of cooked beans in the fridge -- at the moment, it's pinto beans, and dd2 and I love having these in burritos or sometimes just on their own or with rice.

 

Edited to add: I know that beans and tortillas and rice are "starchy foods," too -- I just see them as higher quality starchy foods than cinnamon rolls.


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#130 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 11:25 AM
 
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Mammal-mama, you sound like you are doing great. I look at it like climbing stairs. Your ultimate goal is the top of the stairs, but you have to take one step at a time. If you try to jump to the top, or if someone tries to push you up, you will fall. One step at a time and you will get there. :-)

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#131 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 11:28 AM
 
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Isn't leaving food that causes cravings pushing someone down? Isn't demanding the "food" budget be spent on SODA rather then healthy food pushing someone down?

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#132 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 11:37 AM
 
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I think the only one that can say whether she is being pushed up or down would be mammal-mama. She came on here to share her accomplishments, which are huge! Her experience is hers, and she appears to be doing great taking small steps. And really, we're here to discuss the whole of the problem in America, not to analyze any one person's experience. Either way it sounds to me like she is doing what works for her, which is awesome.
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#133 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 12:05 PM
 
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FWIW, I doubt pecan pie would cause as much of a blood sugar spike as the next thing, being full of nuts. Better for you than a typical bowl of conventional cereal, IMO.

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#134 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 12:20 PM
 
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Truth be told, I am now starting to see how many of my own cooking and activity habits have been pushing both my loved ones and myself waaay down.

 

Rather than trying to analyze whether others are trying to push me down by being stuck in their own unhealthy habits, it makes more sense to me to recognize my own power to stay connected to the Truth that I am fully loved and fully worthy just as I am -- and my power to make my own personal choices while living within the reality that we are all in different places in our nutritional journeys.

 

The fact is, most obese, or otherwise dysfunctional, people are in close relationships with other obese or otherwise dysfunctional people.

 

I can see how it might be necessary to break out of a totally unsupportive relationship -- but I do see dh as very supportive in many important ways. Although he hasn't yet been able to find a form of exercise that he enjoys in the least, he does support me taking the time to do my yoga and hula hooping, and to get out to the pool and the park with the girls. He also buys me red peppers as often as he can. :)

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#135 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 03:37 PM
 
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"Rather than trying to analyze whether others are trying to push me down by being stuck in their own unhealthy habits, it makes more sense to me to recognize my own power to stay connected to the Truth that I am fully loved and fully worthy just as I am -- and my power to make my own personal choices while living within the reality that we are all in different places in our nutritional journeys."

Wow. Preach it, girl!!!! This is truth.

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#136 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 04:04 PM
 
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PM... Wow. I agree with you 1000% percent and couldn't have said it better. You just articulated how I have felt for thirty years! :'-)

Just the other day I broke down at my midwife's office because she told me I shouldn't drink stevia sweetened sodas during my pregnancy (because they create sugar cravings). I am dealing with gestational diabetes and have finally been feeling like I've started to eat "normally" and she was telling me I had a sugar addiction. I was devasted. She didn't understand why I was getting so upset and kept telling me to see a nutritionist. Like I don't know anything about nutrition! I could write a book, really.

After I left her office, I wondered why I got so upset and realized it was because I didn't feel acknowledged for how far I've come. Once again I was being told I am, "not good enough". I absolutely know that was not her intention. She just doesn't know. As you said, PM, most have no idea how to deal with eating disorders. We mostly have to go it alone.

Obesity is just a symptom. Sugar is a symptom. All manifestations of addiction are symptoms in a whole society of people who have somehow lost themselves. You can't "judge" someone into changing. Only compassion, love, and understanding can help.

You definitely can't judge someone into changing. The only real change i've made for myself has come about through love and understanding. All the attempts at force, ridicule, strictness just backfired. As it should, we are not machines, we are breathing, feeling, thinking humans. Thus, its important to honor the whole person, and not simply fixate on the parts we want to change. If there is something you don't like about yourself, don't be afraid to take a long, hard look at it and what could be causing it. When we look at ourselves with the innocent, loving eyes of a child, awarness increases, answers pop up and transformation happens.

I'm sorry your midwife made you feel bad about the stevia. Those sorts of conversations are why i typically ignore people's advice about food. Everyone has their own opinion and i understand nutrition so well, like yourself, that it only hurts, never helps.

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While I agree that eating disorders are an issue, the rates of obesity in the US started going up when the dietary recommendations were changed. I therefore think that the recommendations are part of the problem -- we are told to eat food that doesn't work for MANY people, and then surrounded by food choices that don't work for anybody.

Our society is much more warm and fuzzy than most of the past -- for example in the 50s men were allowed to beat their wives and the handicapped had no rights. The notion that the primary cause of the ever increasing rates of obesity is an "emotional hole" doesn't jive for me.

There is NO agreement about what a "healthy" diet is. I completely disagree with the FDA's recommendations, because they made me fat and sick. Lots of people disagree that the way I eat is healthy because I eat meat.

Yesterday I was at the book store looking for a new Paleo cookbook. I was in a section of cookbooks based on different diets, and it was insane how many different ways of eating some segment considers healthy -- vegetarian, vegan, raw, juicing, low fat, low carb, gluten free, sugar free, dairy free; diets to reduce inflammation, protect against cancer, have a flat belly, bulk up muscles, reduce calories and on and on and on.

These diets conflict with each other. Its really no wonder people have trouble with their weight and can't figure out what to do.

There are lots of theories as to why people are obese. I actually find the food pyramid to be a generally healthy way of eating. It doesnt tell people to eat exorbitant amounts of the food that typically cause weight issues (fats, oils and sweets use sparingly) so i'm not sure where you got that idea.

Also, you might want to check out the thread in TAO about people who say "well at least it isn't that..." because thats what you did in your second paragraph to me. Just because things were bad way back when doesnt change how miserable a lot of people are NOW. I see a lot of depressed and anxious people and a lot of these people don't have the emotional support that they need. Thus why wouldn't food be something they turn to to help soothe their pain? Are you not aware of how simple sugars affect the serotonin (the love chemical) levels in the brain?
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#137 of 196 Old 07-19-2013, 04:34 PM
 
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PM and dalia, you are both so right! While nutritional knowledge is essential, knowledge alone can't get us or keep us on a healthy path. We are a whole person -- body, mind, emotions, and spirit -- and without getting at the root reasons for our unhealthy approaches to food, trying to apply the knowledge is like trying to row a boat upstream -- like fighting against ourselves every step of the way.

Dd1 doesn't understand why I say my yoga helps me get connected to my center, and that's what is helping me lose weight. She just thinks I'm burning more calories and eating less, and that's why the weight is coming off -- which is true on the surface -- but the reason why this is no longer a struggle for me is because of my growing sense that I, just as I am, just where I am, without any more food, money, friends, or what-have-you, am already fully adequate, fully loved, and fully connected to everything I need.

I feel like I'm being fed while I'm just sitting very still and breathing. This is totally different from in the past when my "superego" mind would be trying to force me to limit my intake of food while my "child" mind was screaming and rolling on the floor because of a total sense of being deprived of things I needed.

I feel like all the different parts of me are on the same page -- unified -- and that is why I feel such a strong assurance that I won't be yo-yoing back into a fat person several months from now.

This comment is inspiring to me, thank you. I know what you mean about doing yoga to connect to your center, i do this, too smile.gif I also know what you mean about the "child mind" throwing tantrums. Its so important to nurture our inner child, i believe this is the key to healing the root of our addictions. That doesn't mean give in to every desire and plea, but to listen and honor one's very real feelings. I'm so happy you feel unified smile.gif That sounds really beautiful. You brought tears to my eyes.
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Your husband is sabotaging you. He is making sure that you have foods around you that make it more difficult for you to lose weight AND KEEP IT OFF.

Throw the food away, and tell him to bring you flowers. He's being a jerk, and you aren't seeing it for what it is. He is keeping you in a state of cravings, but you can put an end to it.

I understand that you believe not having the foods you crave around will help you lose weight. I get that. However, in the long run, that way of thinking and doing is flawed and often doesnt work. I grew up with a mother who was addicted to sugar, so addicted that she would sneak spoonfuls of white sugar in the middle of the night--she'd eat it right off the spoon. She was truly addicted. She tried all sorts of diets and there was many periods of time in which she made sure not to have any sugary foods in the house. But her weight yo-yoed. She would be strict with herself and then she'd reach a point where she couldn't handle it and then she'd start sneaking sugar...it was always downhill fron there. There was never any sense of moderation with her, it was always all or nothing, do or die. So when mammal mama and dalia suggest that having a little bit once in awhile is better than completely depriving oneself, they are aware of the fact that going down the middle of the road causes more success in the long run than skidding out-of-control on the sides of the road.

Food addictions are powerful and when someone is healing from them, depriving themselves often causes an emotional backlash that can easily spiral out-of-control. This is also why most diets don't work. They are forcing you to eat a certain way that your brain, body and emotions are not used to. It is a shock in more ways than one and of course there will be reactions to this.

Just now i commented on mama mammals' statement about the "child mind"--if you force yourself to ignore that part of yourself then there will be a backlash. You cant ignore your feelings, you need to understand them and integrate them in order to heal and be free.
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I'm obviously really out of sync with the thread so I'll bow out now. A few finally thoughts:

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 it makes more sense to me to recognize my own power to stay connected to the Truth that I am fully loved and fully worthy just as I am -- and my power to make my own personal choices while living within the reality that we are all in different places in our nutritional journeys.

 

The fact is, most obese, or otherwise dysfunctional, people are in close relationships with other obese or otherwise dysfunctional people.

 

I can see how it might be necessary to break out of a totally unsupportive relationship --

 

I hope your journey continues to go well. I suspect few people actually need to end relationship over this, and I didn't mean to imply that they did. Rather, what I meant to advocate was being clear with our partners, setting boundaries, and speaking up for ourselves.

 

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There are lots of theories as to why people are obese. I actually find the food pyramid to be a generally healthy way of eating. It doesnt tell people to eat exorbitant amounts of the food that typically cause weight issues (fats, oils and sweets use sparingly) so i'm not sure where you got that idea.
Also, you might want to check out the thread in TAO about people who say "well at least it isn't that..." because thats what you did in your second paragraph to me. Just because things were bad way back when doesnt change how miserable a lot of people are NOW. I see a lot of depressed and anxious people and a lot of these people don't have the emotional support that they need. Thus why wouldn't food be something they turn to to help soothe their pain? Are you not aware of how simple sugars affect the serotonin (the love chemical) levels in the brain?

 

There's no evidence that eating a diet high in fat causes someone to get fat. The scientific evidence shows the opposite -- a diet with 80% of calories from fat is a weight loss plan. On the other hand, a diet high in carbs (and the bottom of the food pyramid is carbs) is associated not just with weight gain, but with diabetes, arthritis, and heart disease. The food pyramid was designed by the FDA and is really good for agribusiness (pretty much everything at the bottom of the pyramid is now genetically modified -- this is about supporting Monsanto, not family farmers). Eating this way isn't good for anyone's health.  

 

I'm very aware of how sugar, wheat, and milk effect brain chemistry. However, I don't think there are more depressed people lacking in support now than there were 30 years ago, when the obesity rates started taking off. I agree with you that food and emotions get wrapped up in ways that are very destructive for a segment of the population, but I disagree that it accounts for the rates of obesity. In the last 30 years, they rates have just climbed and climbed -- during good economies and in bad.

 

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I understand that you believe not having the foods you crave around will help you lose weight. I get that. However, in the long run, that way of thinking and doing is flawed and often doesnt work.

 

 

I don't have food cravings. I ended them by quitting wheat cold turkey. It really only took 3 days to get past the worst of it. It was like going through withdraw. Cravings are physiological, and whether or not the food is around doesn't impact them. We can crave foods that aren't there, or we can have the food right in front of us and not crave it.

 

I know that if I eat any wheat at all, I'll go straight back to that nasty cycle, and I'm done being an addict. Or course, so was Corry Monteith, so we'll see how it goes.

 

The notion that anyone with an addition to any food should just eat it in moderation makes as much sense to me as saying Corry should have done Heroin in moderation. It just doesn't work. For some people with some substances, there is no such thing as an OK amount, because any amount just makes them want more, which makes them want more.

 

The reason to not have munchie wheaty items in my home is that it would just be too easy to go back. Pretty much all the foods that really feed me take some level of preparation, but a cinnamon roll doesn't. I'm not avoiding cravings by not having food around. I avoid cravings by not eating the foods that I know cause me to have craving! Keeping certain foods out of my house just makes it easier for me to be thoughtful and intentional in my eating.


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#139 of 196 Old 07-20-2013, 08:21 AM
 
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Linda on the Move, I think if you have pinpointed what triggers your cravings that is awesome. I really believe people should find what works for them. Sounds like your problem is physiological. To be honest, I'm jealous. I wish there was a physical thing I could cut out to change my habits, but my habits come from emotion. It's a constant battle.

As for Heroine and food, as someone who was a drug addict I can offer this: the difference between drugs and food is you can't quit food cold turkey. You HAVE to eat. There are great benefits to eating but none to doing heroine. When I quit hard drugs (meth, coke and CRACK -yikes), I disappeared myself from all my druggie friends and moved to a different state. That was the only way. But I can't escape food, I just have to learn to change my relationship with it; to become "friends" with it. If I fight my cravings they become huge monsters. It's hard to explain, but eating a sliver of pie and not the whole pie is a HUGE accomplishment for someone like me. Maybe one day I will stop eating pie altogether, but doing that today would spell big trouble for me. The restriction would become part of the addiction. It's hard to explain.

For what it's worth, I do much better on a higher fat and protein, lower carb diet. I do AWFUL on a high carb diet. I think different people have different body chemistry depending on their heritage. But I don't cut anything out all together except maybe soda (maybe ill have a Mexican coke once a year) because restricting myself from any one food spells disaster for me. For many like me, that is their reality.

Hope I helped to shed some light on a very complicated issue!
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#140 of 196 Old 07-20-2013, 08:59 AM
 
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http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf

 

I wanted to repost the above link from Linda on the move, because I think it gives some really good general guidelines for people who don't have any ethical or health objections to eating animal products. I got wonderful results by following some advice along these same lines when I was pregnant with dd2, which really brought home to me the importance of protein.

 

I finally got in touch with an awesome midwife in my 7th month of pregnancy with dd2, and right off, we found out that my glucose and protein levels were out of whack. I was worried that I might have gestational diabetes or toxemia -- but she assured me that even this late in the pregnancy, it was totally possible to turn this situation around with diet. She stressed that I should eat small meals or snacks several times a day, and eat something high in protein each time.

 

We bought tons of cottage cheese and canned salmon -- she recommended the salmon not just for protein but also for the Omega 3 fats -- so that I had a quick and easy way to get a few bites of high-protein food anytime I ate anything. I also started most mornings by frying myself three eggs for breakfast.

 

Before starting this diet, I'd been craving tons of sugar, and had literally been baking and icing a chocolate cake or brownies about every other day. After starting it, I discovered that I was happy eating just one small piece of a dessert like this, after having eaten something high in protein.

 

My levels went back to normal, and I also dropped tons of weight. My midwife said she'd normally worry about such a big weight loss so late in pregnancy -- but in my case, she thought it was just water weight.

 

These days, I actually find I'm eating an average of only about two servings from the grain group most days -- and there don't seem to be any nutrients my body is missing. And I'm not craving it either. So I think there's something to be said about filling our bodies with what they need -- this does seem to be the best way to cut sugar cravings.


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#141 of 196 Old 07-20-2013, 10:46 AM
 
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I also wanted to reemphasize the importance of learning to embrace active lifestyles, especially in the context of combatting obesity in general and childhood obesity in particular. Children in our society, especially poor children, have so many strikes against them when it comes to getting enough physical activity. In Fatland, Critser points out that funding cuts have caused many public schools to omit physical education entirely.

 

I feel very blessed and privileged to be able to work from home, When I noticed recently that dd2, who is 8, is not quite as active as she was when she was younger, and had started gaining some weight, I determined that after finishing work most afternoons, she and I needed to get outdoors together. In more comfortable weather, she has also been taking our dogs outdoors throughout the day and running around with them -- but now that it's up in the 90's, and we're without ac this summer again, she is naturally not motivated to move around much, whether indoors or out, so swimming is her main physical activity at the moment. It's so great that when I finish work, I'm right here at home and so is everyone else in our family -- there's no commute, no one to pick up. We can just change into our suits, slap on our sunscreen, and head out the door. And still have a little evening left when we get home.

 

And dd1, who is 13, is always welcome to come with us whenever she wants -- but I don't push her if she doesn't feel like it, since she is into her own routine of taking our big lab for six mile walks, practically every day. But I will say that our allowing dd1 to do this in our predominantly low-income neighborhood flies in the face of what some in our society would call good parenting. We feel safer letting her do this because she has a large dog -- but many parents wouldn't do it even then.

 

So I look at a lot of other low income parents like us with a lot of empathy. Maybe they weren't privileged enough to have the parental support to pursue a college degree -- the minimal requirement for my work-at-home job is a bachelor's degree -- so maybe they have to work some distance from their house, plus maybe they have to work a second job because of lower pay. Maybe they can't even afford to take care of a big dog, and therefore wouldn't feel at all comfortable allowing their 13yo dd to take long walks around the neighborhood.

 

There are even some suburban and small town parents who don't feel comfortable letting their kids roam the neighborhood -- but at least parents with higher incomes can usually enroll their kids in some sort of organized sport.

 

Finding the time to educate themselves about nutrition and to prepare the food -- not to mention the money to buy more nutritious foods and fewer starchy foods, as well as the time to help their children (and themselves) embrace an active lifestyle is so incredibly hard for many low income parents, so, as Critser says, it should come as no surprise that obesity is a much greater problem among the poor than among the rich.

 

It's true that the parents are the key to turning things around for their own kids -- but it seems grossly unfair to me to blame the parents. One big thing that we, as a society, need to invest in is creating safer neighborhoods for everyone. Children need to be able to step out their front doors and feel safe exploring and interacting with others, wherever they happen to live. Parents need to feel safe letting their kids out the door, and not be berated and called neglectful or bad parents for letting their kids play outside or walk to the store, to school, or to a friend's house.

 

So I guess I should say that parents are part of the solution, but changing the environment and the culture are another huge part. Rather then pointing the finger, we need to be working together on this.

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#142 of 196 Old 07-20-2013, 07:25 PM
 
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There's no evidence that eating a diet high in fat causes someone to get fat. The scientific evidence shows the opposite -- a diet with 80% of calories from fat is a weight loss plan. On the other hand, a diet high in carbs (and the bottom of the food pyramid is carbs) is associated not just with weight gain, but with diabetes, arthritis, and heart disease. The food pyramid was designed by the FDA and is really good for agribusiness (pretty much everything at the bottom of the pyramid is now genetically modified -- this is about supporting Monsanto, not family farmers). Eating this way isn't good for anyone's health.  

I'm very aware of how sugar, wheat, and milk effect brain chemistry. However, I don't think there are more depressed people lacking in support now than there were 30 years ago, when the obesity rates started taking off. I agree with you that food and emotions get wrapped up in ways that are very destructive for a segment of the population, but I disagree that it accounts for the rates of obesity. In the last 30 years, they rates have just climbed and climbed -- during good economies and in bad.



I don't have food cravings. I ended them by quitting wheat cold turkey. It really only took 3 days to get past the worst of it. It was like going through withdraw. Cravings are physiological, and whether or not the food is around doesn't impact them. We can crave foods that aren't there, or we can have the food right in front of us and not crave it.

I know that if I eat any wheat at all, I'll go straight back to that nasty cycle, and I'm done being an addict. Or course, so was Corry Monteith, so we'll see how it goes.

The notion that anyone with an addition to any food should just eat it in moderation makes as much sense to me as saying Corry should have done Heroin in moderation. It just doesn't work. For some people with some substances, there is no such thing as an OK amount, because any amount just makes them want more, which makes them want more.

The reason to not have munchie wheaty items in my home is that it would just be too easy to go back. Pretty much all the foods that really feed me take some level of preparation, but a cinnamon roll doesn't. I'm not avoiding cravings by not having food around. I avoid cravings by not eating the foods that I know cause me to have craving! Keeping certain foods out of my house just makes it easier for me to be thoughtful and intentional in my eating.

When it comes to carbs, i don't believe they should all be avoided. The FDA wasn't specific, but its fairly common knowledge now that eating 100% whole wheat and other whole grain products is much better for your health than white flour. So while the bottom of the pyramid is carbs, that doesn't mean its saying to eat processed, white flour type carbs. Myself and many people wouldn't feel good if we cut way down on carbs, so i eat mostly whole grain type carbs. The high fat and high protein diet doesn't work for everyone, either, i think it depends on a person's body type, metabolism, activity level and probably other factors. Just as some people, like you, believe the food pyramid is unhealthy, others, like myself, see a lot of the newer diets to be unhealthy.

As far as the last 30 years go, i see emotional issues rising to the surface. Its only been during this time that people have been feeling more and more comfortable feeling and expressing a wide-range of emotions. Prior to this time, showing or feeling depressed was shunned as was anxiety, anger if you're a woman, confusion about life or one's purpose, feelings of worthlessness or despair, apathy, body image issues, sexual issues, and hatred. All of these emotions and problems were taboo and not an accepted part of society. People rarely went to therapists and treatment for pyschological issues was rudimentary and barbaric. So my speculation that a big reason why people are obese now rather than 30+ years ago is based on the reality that a lot of what we're experiencing these days is uncharted territory. Its difficult for a lot of people because they don't have the proper emotional guidance to help them deal with their feelings. Thus, turning to comforting food is one method to help them deal.

I understand your analogy about how eating foods in moderation that you're addicted to is the same as using heroin in moderation. That makes sense to me. For some people that probably is what its like. For others, though, going cold turkey could cause psychological harm due to having one of their few comforts taken away. For these people, the craving is based on a perceived emotional need that they don't know how to fill otherwise. These people need to learn new methods for dealing with their emotional pain before they totally let go of their comfort foods. This is what i meant by going down the middle of the road. If they eat these foods in moderation while also helping themselves heal emotionally, over time they won't crave those foods anymore since the emotional attachment was let go.
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#143 of 196 Old 07-21-2013, 12:06 AM
 
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When it comes to carbs, i don't believe they should all be avoided. The FDA wasn't specific, but its fairly common knowledge now that eating 100% whole wheat and other whole grain products is much better for your health than white flour. So while the bottom of the pyramid is carbs, that doesn't mean its saying to eat processed, white flour type carbs. Myself and many people wouldn't feel good if we cut way down on carbs, so i eat mostly whole grain type carbs. The high fat and high protein diet doesn't work for everyone, either, i think it depends on a person's body type, metabolism, activity level and probably other factors. Just as some people, like you, believe the food pyramid is unhealthy, others, like myself, see a lot of the newer diets to be unhealthy.
Low tar cigarettes are healthier than regular tar cigarettes, but that doesn't mean they are healthy. People who are addicted to them feel like hell if they try to quit. So if they are healthier and the person feels like hell if they try to quit, then does it follow that it is healthy to smoke low tar cigarettes?
I don't think that all carbs should be avoided -- heck, most vegies have carbs! Onions have carbs! Broccoli has carbs!
There are unhealthy diets out there, to be sure. But right now our FDA and AMA are not keeping up with the research and current science and are handing out old advice that our society has proven doesn't work. If the food pyramid worked for most people, we wouldn't have a country of fat people. My beliefs are based on a lot of research The conventional wisdom seems to drive a lot of people's views, and it doesn't match the research.

As far as the last 30 years go, i see emotional issues rising to the surface. Its only been during this time that people have been feeling more and more comfortable feeling and expressing a wide-range of emotions. Prior to this time, showing or feeling depressed was shunned as was anxiety, anger if you're a woman, confusion about life or one's purpose, feelings of worthlessness or despair, apathy, body image issues, sexual issues, and hatred. All of these emotions and problems were taboo and not an accepted part of society. People rarely went to therapists and treatment for pyschological issues was rudimentary and barbaric. So my speculation that a big reason why people are obese now rather than 30+ years ago is based on the reality that a lot of what we're experiencing these days is uncharted territory. Its difficult for a lot of people because they don't have the proper emotional guidance to help them deal with their feelings. Thus, turning to comforting food is one method to help them deal.
People have more and better access to mental health now than at any time in human history, and you think that causes them to overeat? That doesn't make sense to me. People should have healthier eating based on that because we have so many options -- from therapist to self help books to whatever. We have lots of options to deal with our problems besides food.
Also, we work out more. 30 years ago ladies didn't excess because it wasn't lady like -- yet fewer ladies had weight problems.
So we are more emotionally healthy, have more options with our lives, get more exercise, spend more on diet programs! and yet have the highest rates of obesity every! And despite all our efforts, they keep going up!
30 years ago our food supplies started changing (GMO wheat,)  and our dietary recommendations changed (grains were in, fat was out) and we as a nation have just gotten fatter and fatter since then.

I understand your analogy about how eating foods in moderation that you're addicted to is the same as using heroin in moderation. That makes sense to me. For some people that probably is what its like. For others, though, going cold turkey could cause psychological harm due to having one of their few comforts taken away. For these people, the craving is based on a perceived emotional need that they don't know how to fill otherwise. These people need to learn new methods for dealing with their emotional pain before they totally let go of their comfort foods. This is what i meant by going down the middle of the road. If they eat these foods in moderation while also helping themselves heal emotionally, over time they won't crave those foods anymore since the emotional attachment was let go.

 

If they could eat the foods in moderation, then they aren't addicted to them. There are two 12 step programs for food addiction -- Overeaters Anonymous and Food Addicts Anonymous. Both are great programs with very solid literature. Having done both programs, I preferred overeaters anonymous. It's actually a lovely personal growth program.

 

If any substance is wrecking a person's body and life, and they are incapable of consuming it in moderation, then it is in their own best interests to not consume that substance. And yes, some people need a lot of help and support and other changes to make it happen. Some of them attend meetings just like alcoholics do.

 

To imply that someone should continue eating food that is slowly killing them (obesity is one of the leading causes of death in the US) because they really need that food isn't compassionate or caring.


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#144 of 196 Old 07-21-2013, 01:32 AM
 
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I can't quote most of what you said, Linda, because you commented within the brackets of my quote. I will respond to what you said, though. First of all, your analogy about low-tar vs normal cigarettes isnt exactly parallel to white flour vs whole wheat flour or whole grain flour. Whole grain flour doesn't cause sugar spikes the same way white flour does and the fiber content is high, which helps with digestion and feeling satiated. It is a whole food, not a highly processed food, so this would be more like comparing tomatoes with generic ketchup. Obviously there is a huge difference--one is a food, the other is a condiment that is mostly made of water and high fructose corn syrup.

Again, i wonder if most people who are both overweight and follow the food pyramid are eating mostly overprocessed white flour or whole grain flour? Does your research include that distinction?

Yes, therapy is better, yes, there are more choices. But that doesnt mean professionals have all the answers nor is real emotional help an overnight thing. It usually takes a person with chronic emotional issues years before they feel healthy. Some people never do even with honest effort. Also, many people feel ashamed and do not seek help because of their shame. Food will not judge or reject them.

People are actually more sedentary than they were more than 30 years ago. They didnt have all the modern conveniences and appliances they do now. My mother would hand wash and line dry my brother's cloth diapers every other day. How many moms can say they do that now? That's just one example of many in which we are living in a society of convenience, which makes sitting on our butts very easy to do.

I can tell you want to focus on the "wheat" issue and basically ignore what i have to say. So be it. We all have our own perspectives, i am okay with that.

Lastly, i know about OA, my mom has gone to the meetings for years. I dont think you're understanding my perspective on moderation--obviously if someone is deep into their addiction they won't be able to keep it in moderation. I am referring to people who are also working on their emotional health, so that the cravings naturally become less and less over time. I believe unhealthy food cravings are emotionally based, thus, by healing emotions you are also healing the food issues.

I just found this article: http://chronicle.com/article/What-Would-Great-Grandma-Eat-/130890/
I found it interesting, you might, too, so i'm sharing it.

One more thing--http://www.ohmyraw.com/is-the-paleo-diet-really-healthy/
This doesnt really address the wheat issue but it is still good to read.
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While it's true that women weren't working out in the past, I agree with PrimordialMind that they had more physical activity throughout the day, just doing their daily household tasks. Also, most families were one-car families, so if fathers took the car to work each day, I suppose many mothers were walking to the grocery store.

 

And children were tremendously more active than they are now. Parents weren't afraid to let them roam the neighborhood, and there were a lot more child-organized sports and games.

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#146 of 196 Old 07-21-2013, 11:28 AM
 
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 First of all, your analogy about low-tar vs normal cigarettes isnt exactly parallel to white flour vs whole wheat flour or whole grain flour. Whole grain flour doesn't cause sugar spikes the same way white flour does and the fiber content is high, which helps with digestion and feeling satiated. It is a whole food, not a highly processed food, so this would be more like comparing tomatoes with generic ketchup. Obviously there is a huge difference--one is a food, the other is a condiment that is mostly made of water and high fructose corn syrup.

....People are actually more sedentary than they were more than 30 years ago. They didnt have all the modern conveniences and appliances they do now. My mother would hand wash and line dry my brother's cloth diapers every other day. How many moms can say they do that now? That's just one example of many in which we are living in a society of convenience, which makes sitting on our butts very easy to do.
 

 

Here are some stats:

 

According to Harvard, the glycemic index of Wonder Bread is 73

And the glycemic index of whole wheat bread is 71

 

pasta made with white flour is 48

whole wheat pasta is 42

 

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Glycemic_index_and_glycemic_load_for_100_foods.htm

 

So while whole wheat is lower, it isn't low. Eating whole grains leads to blood sugar high and lows, insulin spikes, and eventually, insulin resistance, and type II diabetes just like the refined stuff.

Whole wheat products are highly processed and aren't the least bit natural -- even the wheat they start with isn't natural. It was created in a lab. If you are interested in this, I recommend reading "wheat belly." 

 

One of the things I find insidious about wheat is the belief that people think it is healthy. It really deserves a reputation like sugar or alcohol -- a food to be enjoyed in moderation. Not a healthy food to eat several times a day.

 

It was highly unusually for people to be washing clothes by hand 30 years ago. The last person in my family who washed diapers by hand was my grandmother, and she had her kids in the last 1930's and early 1940's. I honestly can't think of a single time saving device available now that wasn't widely available in 1983. Microwaves, dishwashers, crock pots were all quite common. (BTW, I'm 48). Clothes washers and dryers have been common since the 1950s.

 

While every segment of our population is heavier than they were 30 years ago, the group most effected are those with low income, and they are less likely to own all the machines that make life so easy, so this whole argument falls apart.

 

I also don't buy that activity levels for adults have changed that much in the last 30 years. Last 60 years -- yes. Last 30 years -- no.  I can't find any any studies that prove it one way or the other, which is odd, because it gets stated over and over.

 

One thing that has drastically changed in this time is our food supply. Not just wheat, but pretty much everything is now factory farmed and just different. Farms animals aren't feed they same kind of food, and our whole grocery store is a mecca of processed foods, many of which are touted as healthy. I don't know why it is so hard to believe that a big chunk of the problem is the food supply.


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#147 of 196 Old 07-21-2013, 11:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post

While it's true that women weren't working out in the past, I agree with PrimordialMind that they had more physical activity throughout the day, just doing their daily household tasks. Also, most families were one-car families, so if fathers took the car to work each day, I suppose many mothers were walking to the grocery store.

 

And children were tremendously more active than they are now. Parents weren't afraid to let them roam the neighborhood, and there were a lot more child-organized sports and games.

 

This is not how people lived in 1983. Really, really not. This really shows a lack of understanding.

 

People lived pretty much like they do now -- mostly 2 income families, lots of divorce, fewer never married parents, lots of cars. No body WALKED anywhere.

 

BTW -- I'm older than you. I was 18 30 years ago.  You have your time frame, way, way off.


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#148 of 196 Old 07-21-2013, 11:50 AM
 
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Sigh... I don't get why it can't just be accepted that bodies are different and minds are different. Experiences are different. If one thing works for another then that's great. We don't need everyone to do the same thing to get to the same place.

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#149 of 196 Old 07-21-2013, 12:32 PM
 
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I think there's a lot more pre-packaged junk food available and affordable to families. If you don't have much money, its a lot easier to cook up a 50 cent box of mac and cheese. Fruits/veggies add to the cost and aren't as filling. Large plates/portion control are also bigger problems now than 30 years ago. Overall, I blame society for not taking better care of our children. Linda--how do you feel about rice and potatoes?


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#150 of 196 Old 07-21-2013, 12:47 PM
 
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I think there's truth to both sides. It's absolutely true that big agribusiness has its own interests at heart, not our health. Shady things definitely happen in the food industry, like a massive surplus in corn supply leading, in part, to the trend of HFCS suddenly being used in nearly every processed product on grocery store shelves. Food deserts definitely exist in inner cities, where families are literally unable to buy fresh (nevermind local or organic) produce without a herculean effort. And stuff like that has, in turn, contributed to the skyrocketing weight problem in our country (which is now spreading worldwide). There is definitely a corporate component to the obesity epidemic; it's not solely an emotional failing on the part of individual eaters.

But I do think that different diets work for different people. Plenty of people maintain a healthy weight and don't exhibit allergy-type symptoms on a diet that includes wheat. Sometimes starting a new diet and seeing/feeling the good results can cause people to become rather evangelical about that particular eating plan, but I don't believe there's a magic bullet. Barring allergies/intolerances, eating everything in moderation and getting regular exercise will, theoretically, cause most everyone to be reasonably fit and healthy.
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Health , Underage And Overweight Americas Childhood Obesity Epidemic What Every Parent Needs To Know

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