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-   -   Let's go over this again, what's wrong with time outs? (http://www.mothering.com/forum/35-parenting/1388780-let-s-go-over-again-what-s-wrong-time-outs.html)

ian'smommaya 08-24-2013 08:29 AM

The big one, for me is the isolation aspect. I don't like the idea that conflict causes one to no longer be part of the group, that strong feelings or conflict mean you have to leave until the other person decides it's okay to come back.

 

So tell me why you don't do time outs?

 

 

Related Article: The Trouble with Time-Out by Marcy Axness


Red Pajama 08-24-2013 09:58 PM

I'm going out on a limb to say that I don't think there's anything wrong with time outs as done in my house. When the kids were small, if they hurt a sibling or were really being a pill, they went "to the fish", a decorative stepping stone in my living room. It was for short time outs.  Later, when I was dealing with biting between the twins or pinching when little sister was the same age, I said that one reason children bite (or pinch) was that they were tired, and they'd need to go to bed for awhile if they bit (or pinched). I was able to extinguish that behavior with no greater intervention on my part. I haven't needed a time out in a very long time, but I have told a child to go to their room until they felt better. 

 

I don't think there's a problem with encouraging reflective thinking on behavior and separation from those hurt by your behavior if the family usually is well connected and supportive of each other. We do lots of together time. The majority of our interactions are positive. I am personally very comfortable with our discipline process, although as mentioned, time out isn't something our family uses much of anymore, just due to the maturation of the kids in question.


Xerxella 08-24-2013 10:39 PM

We run a punishment free household, so there's no need for time outs. I just think you should overall deal with the problem and solve the problem rather than being punitive. Consequences come naturally.

What's RIGHT with time outs?

marsupial-mom 08-24-2013 11:05 PM

We do time outs. They're time to take a break and regain composure. Or a time to reflect and redirect. They are not always punishment. Many times the time out is not alone, just a time to stop everything and sit for a minute. Sometimes I sit with my son, hold his hand or even hug. After, we always hug.

mamazee 08-25-2013 06:31 AM

Time outs are what led me away from punishment. In order to keep my older kid in time out, it would have turned into some kind of horrible physical restraint issue, and it would have been more physical and negative and hurtful than spanking. So I didn't do it. I had to look past the behavior at the reason for the behavior, which isn't perfect but probably works as well as punishment and kept us on the same team.

One_Girl 08-25-2013 08:08 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong with time outs. Sometimes a situation is overwhelming and being with the group or their parent makes it harder, not easier, for them to calm down. I think timeout can be very helpful for teaching children to recognize when they need a break from people or a situation. I prefer a situation where the child is allowed to come back when they feel ready though. I used a traditional timeout with my DD the two times she experimented with violence when she was six.

EnviroBecca 08-26-2013 09:10 AM

We do use time-outs, and have been since our son was about 5.  When he was younger, he rarely accepted being alone while awake, so it was extremely difficult to get him to stay in a time-out location, and after a few attempts we decided it wasn't a feasible method of discipline for our family at that time.  Now he is willing to be alone but still prefers company, so we occasionally use time-out as a way of conveying, "I made it very clear that your actions were bothering me and you needed to stop.  Because you did not stop while we were together, we need to be apart for a while so that you can remember to behave reasonably to me and I can recover from feeling so bothered."  We use it only for this type of situation.

 

Here's an example: He's 8 1/2 now.  Friday evening, I had explained that because of the previous Saturday's misery when he chose to use all his screen-time for the day first thing in the morning and then refused to turn off the TV and threw an enormous screaming tantrum, on this Saturday we would not allow any screen-time until after lunch.  I made this very clear and confirmed that he understood.  Saturday morning early (10 minutes before my weekday alarm goes off) he bounded into my room without knocking or saying, "Good morning," and immediately launched into a long long explanation of why he wanted to watch "Good Morning America"; each time he paused for breath and I attempted to respond, he shrieked, "Quit interrupting!!!"  Meanwhile he was leaping on my exercise ball and rolling around the room repeatedly smashing into the corner of the bed and shaking it--a behavior he is very well aware upsets me, and I began making "stop" gestures the first time he did it, but he ignored me.  After a few minutes I got out of bed, grabbed him by the shoulders, made him stand up from the ball, looked into his eyes, and explained firmly, "I told you there would be no screen-time until after lunch today, and I meant it.  You know that I do not like being waked up early on Saturdays.  You know that I do not like you bouncing off the bed when I'm on it.  In ten minutes we will start again on this morning.  Go back to your room and stay there for ten minutes.  Don't even mention screen-time until lunch."  Ten minutes later, I got out of bed, he came out of his room, and we said, "Good morning," hugged, and moved on in a normal way. 

 

The time-out may have been useful for him, to go over what he did wrong and remember why he's not supposed to do these things.  I'd like that, but the most important thing for me is getting a chance for ME to reset, get over the rude awakening, think about whether or not it is reasonable to cancel all screen-time for the day if the kid nags me one more time (this is the kind of decision that is much better to make in a slightly calmer moment, rather than to make a threat about it when I'm upset and then have to follow though), and get fully awake and centered so that I'm ready to deal with him again using MY good behavior.  When he's behaving like he was then, I can't get over it while he's still in the room with me and constantly aggravating me.  This is the reason I think separation is an appropriate consequence of that type of behavior.


bellyfruit 08-26-2013 10:30 AM

I don't think using time-out conveys that conflict necessitates isolation.  Most of our conflicts are small and we are able to talk through them.  But, when things get out of control, like one of the kids is physically lashing out, screaming uncontrollably or a parent is so frustrated that they cannot honestly deal with the situation kindly, it is a great break.  It is recognizing that space and quiet can be really helpful in regulating mood.  But maybe that is just my introvert perspective.  

When I read Alfie Kohn, I felt like I was being preached to by someone with great ideas who did not actually spend all of his hours day after day with his own children.  I am not withholding love by creating boundaries.  It is not saying "I don't love you" by taking space to address my real feelings and calming myself down.  It is saying "This behavior you are unable to stop is too hurtful to the other family members for us to continue pleading with you.  Go take a break and come back when you are ready to address the problem non-violently".

But every family needs to find something that feels right for them. 


Skelly2011 08-26-2013 10:39 AM

Time out, in our family, just means taking a minute to breathe. When my daughter would start getting worked up I'd ask if she needed a time out or to talk it out some more. She really really benefits from taking a moment to think and cool off. She's 3 and a half now and when she starts getting angry she'll say 'I need time out for a minute' and shell run off to sit and think. I spend more time trying to get her out of time out than I ever have trying to get her in to time out.

I think it all depends on how you define it. I think what I've seen on super nanny etc looks a little combative at times, and I wouldn't be nuts about it. But for all my hippy dippy parenting philosophies I just cant see the harm of my daughter having a space to cool off when she's getting worked up. Mom and dad occasionally need our time outs too (DD is very fond of letting us know when we need one haha).

stormborn 08-26-2013 11:54 AM

I don't do arbitrary "go sit in the corner for X minutes" time outs, but I do insist on seperation when things are going south. The vast majority of conflicts here are between siblings and I really don't see any other way to diffuse the-always heated- situations as well as preserve the peace for everyone else in the house.
I'm always open to ideas though. smile.gif

farmermomma 08-26-2013 12:08 PM

I like to ask my DS to go run for a few minutes when he's in a fowl mood. He's a physical boy and comes out of his mood. He often asks for alone time and usually falls asleep.

MamadeRumi 08-26-2013 03:41 PM

I use time outs for myself.  When DS is being a pill, and it's already been a difficult day, and now I'm kneeling in front of the potty trying to gently persuade him to finish pooping so I can go finish dinner before it burns, and then he leans forward and pulls my hair, hard . . . at moments like those I will calmly announce that Mommy needs a little time out, and that I will be back shortly.  Then I leave the room and go into another room and take a few deep breaths and calm myself down.  When I return, I'm able to be a better mother than I would have been if I had stayed there.  I'm an introvert by nature, and I work in an extroverted job, and then I come home to a child who I love more than life itself, but who needs Mommy, mommy, mommy all the time, so for my own sanity I need to take a few minutes sometimes to be alone and recharge.  It isn't punitive.  DS knows I'll be back, and I do always come back.  If he turns out to be an introvert, too, he may also need some alone time, and I like to think that I'm modeling possible future behavior for him -- when you need a moment to yourself, take it, calmly, and without punishing others. 


chirojodi 08-26-2013 04:15 PM

We have absolutely no problems with time-outs in our house.  If you choose to act in a manner which makes you difficult to be around and/or is unacceptable for our family, you are asked to remove yourself until you can be pleasant, nice, and a pleasure to be around.  This rule applies to kids and adults alike and the time of the time out is determined by the person getting the time out.  When the kids are calm, in control of themselves and their emotions and ready to by nice to be around, they are permitted to leave their rooms and rejoin the family.  That may take 2 minutes or it make take 2 hours.  It depends on the situation.  They need to understand that certain behavior is intolerable (both in our family in society as a whole) and no one wants to be around someone who is miserable, or mean, or defiant, or disobedient.


Keesje Mills 08-26-2013 04:18 PM

I have three boys (9, 7 and 2). It's nearly impossible to give one a timeout since there are no quiet spaces in our home & laughable when a sitter tries.

The oldest enjoys the outdoors and often goes on a walk when he's frustrated. The 2 year old is happy just to be at someone's heels, but will spend time screaming into a pillow (until he realizes his control tactic doesn't work).  The 7 year old is addicted to the computer/video games. He lives in a fantasy land half the time and i don't want to discourage him from a future of programming or whatever... I try instead to introduce him to a variety of types of programs and make him come up for air (and spend an hour doing something very different).  He can be very delicate and when he preceives animosity he breaks down & lashes out ("I hate my life!!" etc).  SO... I am using the policy my folks used on me: "ground" the material objects.  The wii's been grounded/off limits, the crayons often go on a high shelf, and i really look forward to grounding the car when they get older!  (this works particularly well when you live out of town!)  There is plenty to do and the less they have the more they seem to appreciate the world.  If their problems are among themselves they seem to want to duke it out more oft than not... I find I take more time-outs than they do! shrug.gif


ilovemybabies11 08-26-2013 04:33 PM

I think they are useful in some cases. I think it's a natural consequence in certain cases. My son is extremely impulsive and we've learned it's due to ADHD.. He will often hit others just to stimulate excitement and adrenaline. He doesn't even consciously think about it, he just does it. It's not even when he's just mad or something.. He'll just pick on everyone all day just because. I know it's truly out of his control, and the only way I can teach him that he has to not hit is to have immediate consequences. Hitting=timeout. I've been using essential oils too and they've been helping but they're not a cure or anything. He's starting to learn that if he hits hell have to go to timeout, so it's a good reminder.

dauphinette 08-26-2013 05:47 PM

I actually feel like time outs saved my relationship with my daughter and let me be the kind of mom I want to be to my little girl.  I don't see anything wrong with a break to reset.  I don't think there is anything wrong with drawing a boundary.  I am here to teach this inexperienced person what not to do and what to do instead and sometimes I can't get through to her until she has had a minute to chill out.  And it does help me, too.  I always like to come back after with a hug and we are both in a better place.  There is no yelling, I always give a warning and then make good if she keeps pressing.  I think it's easy to say what you would do in all situations from your limited experience with your own life and your own family/experiences but life is not one size fits all. 

 

And I read something one time about a healthy kind of shame for kids, too.  I really related to the idea that having the healthy kind of shame can be a guide for us as human beings, help us remember what we don't want to repeat.  I think a respectful time out can be that kind of reminder.


bayoumel 08-26-2013 07:43 PM

NEVER ONCE did "time out" with either of my boys now grown.  I spoke to them respectfully always, treated them with dignity, expected a lot and they brought a lot.  I've seen "mothers" slap a child's hand as they sit in the seat of the cart of the market because the child wants to Touch something.  Children are information gatherers.  So often, I see and hear the results of "parents" bringing small children into stores inappropriately and then having completely inappropriate expectations of them while there.  Then, they hurt the child I assume.....to show who's boss, although THEY were the ones who brought the child there in the first place.  

 

Nope, no time outs - no discipline except for talking about things with them or showing them what was safe, what was kind and respectful.

 

I have a beautiful corporate jet pilot, 29  and a highly gifted touring musician, 24.


Skelly2011 08-26-2013 08:09 PM

Bayoumel, it sounds like you raised your children with kindness and compassion. Kudos to you on that. But with all due respect, I wouldn't utter a time out in the same breath as slapping a child.

It looks like every single one of us that have commented positively on time outs here are essentially just using it as another word for cooling off. As I said before, when my daughter starts getting flustered and angry she'll say 'I need a time out', leave the room and come back when her thoughts are sorted out. I have difficulty even considering that discipline, let alone anywhere near physically abusing a child.

However dragging a child screaming and leaving them in a corner? I'll admit that's too harsh. But that just doesn't seem to be what any of us are doing at all.

anachka 08-26-2013 08:22 PM

I'm probably emotionally damaging my child or maybe I'm not and it really isn't such a big issue. All I know is my dd is a spirited two year old. She tests boundaries continually and; while I am cognizant to the fact that when she purposefully hits one of her play dates on the head with a hard object she is simply testing another boundary or hungry or tired, I am ok with putting her in a different room to chill the @^%* out for a couple minutes. It's the principle. It's not ok to hurt someone. Not to mention chill outs are moments when parents can calm down also.

nicole528 08-26-2013 09:05 PM

I'd have to agree with Skelly here as 'time-outs' in my household are basically just a way for me and my child to cool off.  She is 3 and she will push boundaries.  She has outbursts at times and it seems, she loses controls of her emotions (all normal for a 3 year old).  When these moments occur, I use time-out as a way for her to calm down. There have been times when I've said to her that we both need a time-out.  I always sit with her (because if I left her alone, the situation would exasperate) and we do not leave until she is calm and able to discuss the incident that led to the time-out in the first place.  This usually takes times and a lot of patience on my end. It helps tremendously for both of us to cool off and gives me some time to think about ways to discuss the issues with her.  I've read the problems with time-outs and I've watched members of my own family implement them in the standard "Go sit on the stairs til I say" manner that don't seem very effective to me.  But I guess I feel my version of 'time-out' is not the same thing; just the same term used. 


nextcommercial 08-26-2013 10:32 PM

I don't think there's anything wrong with timeouts either.  

 

I don't use them.  It's not effective here.  But, for some, it might work.

 

For many parents, it's the best way for THEM to deal with a frustrating situation.  I'm very well trained in early childhood, and even *I* get mad and need to walk away.  

 

Sometimes, the timeout is for the caregiver to regroup, and not for the child to "think about what you did", because honestly, NOBODY sits there thinking about what they did.  Not even an adult would go sit in a cubicle to "think about what they did".  Your boss would make you fix what you did, not have you think about it.  So, having the child fix the problem is more productive, unless the adult is very angry...then a time out is awesome.  


Magali 08-27-2013 05:04 AM

   Time out's work great for us.  When my kid gets to the point of being irrational, I tell him to go up to his room so that he can calm down and he can come back when he is ready.  Mostly he comes down in a few minutes and apologises and we talk it out.  Sometimes I go up to his room and he will be quietly playing with toys and we talk it out.  And then we go on as usual. 

 

Also, it's not me yelling "TIME OUT!  Get to your room!"  It's "ok, you need to calm down a bit, why don't you go upstairs?"  I don't think of it as punishing him.  It's helping him when he really needs it.

 

I sneak up to my room with a coffee and a snack every afternoon.  Time out!


Magali 08-27-2013 05:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post

I don't think there's anything wrong with timeouts either.  

 

I don't use them.  It's not effective here.  But, for some, it might work.

 

For many parents, it's the best way for THEM to deal with a frustrating situation.  I'm very well trained in early childhood, and even *I* get mad and need to walk away.  

 

Sometimes, the timeout is for the caregiver to regroup, and not for the child to "think about what you did", because honestly, NOBODY sits there thinking about what they did.  Not even an adult would go sit in a cubicle to "think about what they did".  Your boss would make you fix what you did, not have you think about it.  So, having the child fix the problem is more productive, unless the adult is very angry...then a time out is awesome.  

 

So true about the "think of what you did".  I remember being told that and my only thoughts were RAGE!!!!


Fillyjonk 08-27-2013 07:50 AM

We use time outs, I guess, and I think they work well. But for us its not about punishment or sitting on a step for x minutes or anything. Its about learning to recognise in yourself when you need to step away, regain composure and breathe. I normally tell my kids to go to their rooms for ten minutes and calm down. My kids like their rooms, so tbh its worse for the sibling they share a room with really who sometimes I have to ask to come out of the room. Or I might send them to my room with a book. Its more about restarting the situation than a punishment. OTOH its not optional.

 

You need to parent the kids you have. I have kids who easily tend toward the wild and hyper, who get worked up and then people get hurt. When they are whirling round, lost in the game, they are not actually listening to me and in ten years of parenting I haven't worked out how to get them to snap out of it except by sending them off to calm down. I have a smallish house. Sometimes everyone needs to chill. Sometimes, when someone is hurt, feelings are running high and everyone needs to separate and calm. I've usually found things are much better after a separation, everyone is calmer and happier. In practice, the most I'm saying is that if you persist in hurting people or being mean, if you really cannot make yourself stop, then you will be asked to take yourself away.

 

Bear in mind that I am talking about a 10 year old and an 8 year old really here. There gets to be a point with kids that age where I think its helpful just to have clear rules and boundaries and they can work out for themselves how to keep themselves within them. I do actually feel it reasonable that if a 10 year old can't stop calling people an idiot, he removes himself. 

 

My experience is not that kids experience time outs as being sent away or as rejection. Maybe if you lived in a huge house, but honestly you normally can't get that far from each other anyway. When I was a kid and we had time outs at school, or was sent to my room, I don't ever remember thinking my parents didn't love me or that my teachers hated me. Sometimes I felt that the punishment had been misapplied (I had a textbook irritating dob-you-in little brother-now one of my best friends). But I didn't feel unloved. Sometimes kids are extremely annoying-mine are anyway-and you are at the end of your rope and sending them off to cool down really can be the least bad option, IME.


dauphinette 08-27-2013 11:12 AM

Thats
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoumel View Post

NEVER ONCE did "time out" with either of my boys now grown.  I spoke to them respectfully always, treated them with dignity, expected a lot and they brought a lot.  I've seen "mothers" slap a child's hand as they sit in the seat of the cart of the market because the child wants to Touch something.  Children are information gatherers.  So often, I see and hear the results of "parents" bringing small children into stores inappropriately and then having completely inappropriate expectations of them while there.  Then, they hurt the child I assume.....to show who's boss, although THEY were the ones who brought the child there in the first place.  

Nope, no time outs - no discipline except for talking about things with them or showing them what was safe, what was kind and respectful.

I have a beautiful corporate jet pilot, 29  and a highly gifted touring musician, 24.
[/qThat's great that what you did worked out so well for you, but you aren't me and you don't parent my little one so I think it's hard to say that there is a one size fits all. I agree that for myself, this is the least punitive and most respectful way for all of us and I feel great about that. I am installing into my child ways to deal with her emotions in a respectful way for all involved.

MamadeRumi 08-27-2013 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keesje Mills View Post

 SO... I am using the policy my folks used on me: "ground" the material objects.  The wii's been grounded/off limits, the crayons often go on a high shelf, and i really look forward to grounding the car when they get older!  (this works particularly well when you live out of town!)  There is plenty to do and the less they have the more they seem to appreciate the world.   shrug.gif

 

Yes, I occasionally put a toy in a temporary time out.  This usually comes after several requests and warnings -- e.g., please don't throw that toy car up in the air,  in the house, next to the glass doors, you could break the doors, or the car, and either way one of us will be sad.  Sweetheart, I know it is exciting that you just figured out that you can throw it that high, but this is not the place for throwing, and cars are not the best thing to throw (because I know you'll be very upset if you break that car). why don't you go outside and find something you can throw?  A ball, or a frisbee, or even one of the lighter, plastic cars that won't hurt anyone and isn't likely to break? I can help you find something.  Ahem, I see that you are now trying to be sneaky by hiding behind the chair, but guess what? Mommy can still see the car catapulting through the air, dangerously close to the glass doors.  Please stop, I'm asking nicely.  If you don't cooperate, that car might have to go on time out. Oh, the car is making you throw it in the air?  I see.  Have you explained to the car that it could get hurt or that it could break the doors?  Try explaining that, and while you are at it, tell the car that it will have to go on time out if it insists on flying through the air in the dining room.  Remind it that it is a car, not an airplane. 

 

Car goes sailing by . .. . and I catch it.

 

O.K., that car is going on time out.  Why don't you and I go outside?


DCGreenMamma 08-27-2013 11:27 AM

This thread is very interesting an I appreciate BOTH sides of the coin.  I have a generally very good natured 3yo boy and time outs have worked well for us this past year.  He is warned that he will get a time out for continuing to behave in a way that is hurtful or dangerous, and if he proceeds he gets a time out...2 minutes at the bottom of the stairs...I tell him what he did wrong, I ask him to say he is sorry, we hug...over...great.  Well not so much anymore, lately he is fighting the time outs and working on the "testing".  He won't stay put, and will run and hide...he also wont do what we ask, brushing teeth and getting ready for bed was the issue last night.  I would be very interested in OTHER strategies.  Some mention they treat their kids with kindness and compassion and expect a lot...what does that mean when you have a 3 year old screaming no in your face and running away?  I have been trying to take away "privileges", like books before bed, screen time, treats, but he doesn't seem to care in the moment.

 

Last night I gave up on the time out, and put him in bed lights out without even trying to brush his teeth.  He exploded into tears and said he was sorry right away, we went in and brushed his teeth read some books and all was fine, though 30 minutes later than bedtime should have been. I felt bad though.  Reasoning with a 3 year old is a real challenge sometimes.  I do try to keep my cool, but admit sometimes I raise my voice.

 

If anyone could provide specific examples of how you would handle a child who won't stay in time outs I would appreciate it.

 

Thanks to all!


Xerxella 08-27-2013 12:09 PM

DCMama - I'm a big fan of the book the Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf. It's really all about how you actually have the power to get your kids to do what you need them to do with, really, just your will alone.

Example: Me: "OK, it's time to brush out teeth."
Kid: "NO!" runs away
Me: Deep breath/sigh. Walks after kid and stands there staring at them with the raised eyebrow look. And, I stare and stare and stare. I say nothing.
Kid: Ranting or sulking or whatever... "I don't want to... "
Me: "I know you don't want to brush your teeth. I know you want the day to be over. I know you want to .... " It's great if they'll get in your lap at this point for a hug, but sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. No big deal either way. "I wish we could just play and play and play all day. I wish I could just sit here all day with you in my lap."
Kid: Sob/sigh/whine/complain.
Me: "I know honey. Let's get our teeth brushed real fast so we have more time to read books."

I'm telling you it works.

philomom 08-27-2013 01:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chirojodi View Post

We have absolutely no problems with time-outs in our house.  If you choose to act in a manner which makes you difficult to be around and/or is unacceptable for our family, you are asked to remove yourself until you can be pleasant, nice, and a pleasure to be around.  This rule applies to kids and adults alike and the time of the time out is determined by the person getting the time out.  When the kids are calm, in control of themselves and their emotions and ready to by nice to be around, they are permitted to leave their rooms and rejoin the family.  That may take 2 minutes or it make take 2 hours.  It depends on the situation.  They need to understand that certain behavior is intolerable (both in our family in society as a whole) and no one wants to be around someone who is miserable, or mean, or defiant, or disobedient.


Yep, we did something similar here with our kids. Bad choices and negative attitudes can affect everyone in the family. Why subject yourself and the other siblings to that?

mama amie 08-27-2013 02:20 PM

It's pretty clear that "time out" can take on vastly different meanings. I honestly had no idea in my son's toddler years how on earth anyone was able to get a kid into time out. Mine certainly would escalate immediately with any sort of isolation or being made to sit still in a chair to cool off. I didn't have any realization that a time-out was a real option.

What I see now is that moving to a quiet place with a calm and caring parent is a potentially very helpful tool. I've learned so much over the past few years about anger management and nonviolent communication that had honestly never been presented to me prior to parenting. Sure, I would instinctually huff off by myself if I was really upset, it didn't occur to me to model and teach that (in a non-huffy way) to my son. We get it now, though. If there's conflict over space we model asking for space or moving elsewhere to get space from others.

I feel that time out is useless and potentially harmful when used as a punishment, but see lots of value in learning to express and respect boundaries (need for space) to avoid heated conflict or lessen it. I just wish I'd know to model and implement it sooner- for self and kids. Now to learn how to accept and/or change behaviors without taking away privileges. It's really hard to be and allow kids to be autonomous and learn from life in a way that is peaceful and empathetic to everyone. We're all learning every day. smile.gif


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