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#31 of 57 Old 03-03-2014, 12:38 PM
 
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Some of you have touched on the system of checks and balances for abuse of power within the system. It may take a lot for a child to he removed - but where are the checks and balances *once a child is removed and is in the system*?

In my experience (yes, with my kids), the case worker (social worker) appears to have complete control. The case worker hand picks the various therapists who evaluate and work with the family. If a family knows their rights or can afford a good lawyer, they may work outside of this. But the way it was explained to me, "We like to work with our own specialists because they have experience with abuse cases and know what to look for". But this ends up being code for " we get together behind the scenes and agree on what evidence to present so we can provide a united front to the judge".

The case workers report - overseeing the therapy and interventions involved and interpreting results through their experience and expertise - is what is seen by the judge. Parents must attend court hearings, but only lawyers and case workers actually speak. So unless you can afford a good lawyer (not necessarily a court appointed one), who is keeping the case worker in check to ensure he/she is actually being fair and unbiased?

It all boils down to whether you case worker likes you. The case worker interprets what the kids say. The case worker visits the kids in foster care to determine their needs and ensure their care. The case worker chooses therapists and other expert witnesses. The case worker decides how compliant parents are with the investigation. The case worker writes the report that carries the most weight with the judge. Etc, etc, etc.
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#32 of 57 Old 03-03-2014, 01:10 PM
 
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Im quoting from the above website again, because it is truly so interesting and informative-

 

Quote

 

-The attorneys assigned to these cases know that their clients are among the most powerless and voiceless in society; poor women who are caught in the most dire circumstances. Right from the start, most of these attorneys can't even begin to imagine the kinds of circumstances their clients are going through. Nor are they likely to dig into the situation sufficiently (if at all) to unravel the complexities in search of the truth. Furthermore, these attorneys know their clients do not have the resources, (neither the time, money, nor standing) to mount a case of lawyer misconduct, no matter how bad a job the lawyers do. ....

 

 

...

-The whole CPS/juvenile court system operates in secret. No one is watching. Nothing is on the public record. Add to this the absence of rigorous standards and the attorneys know that no one in the system, including themselves, is likely to be held accountable for legal malpractice......

 

End quote

 

http://justicewomen.com/tips_bewarechildprotectiveservices_2.html

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#33 of 57 Old 03-03-2014, 02:04 PM
 
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I agree that sometimes one call has to be enough. Again, I base this on knowing too many now-adults who faced horrible abuse throughout their childhoods and CPS either never showed up or didn't do anything. I'm fully aware of how complicated a situation is, I'm really worried about CPS, but I also know that there are too many kids who are in danger and need help.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by FisherFamily View Post

I would also like to see changes in what happens to children after they are removed. My experience has been that no one is truly advocating for the children, court dates are moved on a whim and burdensome to pare.ts, and foster parents are not connected to the resources and information to properly care for the children. A friend had two kids for three weeks before she even knew how old they were or their last name! And she fought for 9 months for a hearing evaluation for one of the children before they even started the process.

Agreed. My mom was a foster mother- it was AWFUL. Like I said, to my knowledge the system has been totally overhauled since then- but I'm sure it can still be just as bad. I've also heard of teenagers in foster homes being forced to get abortions by social workers.

 

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So unless you can afford a good lawyer (not necessarily a court appointed one), who is keeping the case worker in check to ensure he/she is actually being fair and unbiased?


This is part of the problem, honestly. Because who said that well-paid, good lawyers keep things fair and unbiased? They just bias it in your favor.

 

A lot of times kids who are abused and no one does anything about it, their parents are well off and with good standing in the community. I know a few who were the children of religious leaders (pastors, etc). The odds of anyone calling abuse on a man of God were slim, and even if CPS showed up, CPS knew that the parents could afford the lawyers to fight.

 

It's no longer about abuse- it's about money. Poor people can't afford to fight CPS, so they jut have to get lucky. Wealthy people can afford to fight CPS, and fight criminal charges, and even counter-sue, so unless it is SEVERE abuse, they can get away with it.

 

In the case of Dylan Farrow, the woman who recently wrote an open letter about being sexually abused by Woody Allen, the prosecutor thought there was enough evidence to convict- but Woody Allen was powerful enough that the prosecutor came up with an excuse to justify not taking it to court. I'm sure that happens all the time.

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#34 of 57 Old 03-04-2014, 01:33 PM
 
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http://www.danisstory.org/

This story explains a LOT about the failure of CPS. The fact that a case like Dani's even exists is appalling.


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#35 of 57 Old 03-04-2014, 01:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dalia View Post

From my experience they always try to keep the child with their family. In fact, sometimes I really feel like they should take the child and its frustrating that it is such a process.

 
This quote exactly. I've known a handful of people who've had CPS involved. Every single one of them should have had their kids taken away and placed in a loving home. Only one of them lost parental rights entirely, a few retained partial custody, and one has full custody and it makes me sick. Unfortunately, neglect is almost impossible to prove, unless it is as severe as Dani's story.

All of the kids who were kept with their families have severe mental/ emotional issues, that I can say in my totally non-humble, non-medical opinion, were likely the direct result of their environment. My heart breaks for them.

I'd much rather a child be in a messy home, dealing with food insecurity, wearing clothes a size too small, and loved to pieces by their parent(s)/ guardian, than to see a kid who is fed, bathed, sheltered, and resented/ abused by their parent(s)/ guardian.

I believe this guy. What the heck incentive would he have to make up a story like this?


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#36 of 57 Old 03-04-2014, 02:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by preemieprincess View Post
 

http://www.danisstory.org/

This story explains a LOT about the failure of CPS. The fact that a case like Dani's even exists is appalling.

I agree... They really should have talked to the daughter and, if she coudlnt' talk, gotten her evaluated. I know there's a mom on here who is or was being pushed by a social worker to get her child evaluated for mental problems, so clearly the system can do it.

 

It really is so complicated. You get some cases where they come in and make a decent family's life miserable over dirty dishes, then you get some where severe abuse goes unnoticed.


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#37 of 57 Old 03-04-2014, 03:03 PM
 
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Let me clarify on saying "I believe this guy."

What I'm trying to say is more along the lines of what you said, sillysapling. I believe that his accusations of witnessing truly messed up stuff going on in CPS are entirely true. As far as some of his other claims (calling it a "terrorist organization," etc), I wouldn't necessarily be so easily swayed.


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#38 of 57 Old 03-04-2014, 03:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by preemieprincess View Post

Let me clarify on saying "I believe this guy."


What I'm trying to say is more along the lines of what you said, sillysapling. I believe that his accusations of witnessing truly messed up stuff going on in CPS are entirely true. As far as some of his other claims (calling it a "terrorist organization," etc), I wouldn't necessarily be so easily swayed.
I'm sure that a lot of what he says is true, but it wonder what his job was there and how he accessed that information. It could be that his source was biased or didn't have all the facts, in some of the cases.
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#39 of 57 Old 03-06-2014, 12:36 PM
 
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Sigh, the more I look into CPS, the more  depressed (and appalled) I become. I actually feel traumatized just reading about it, and have  avoided this thread for the last few days. However, I  am posting some more information I have come across below.

Just don’t open your door people!    

 

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-york-state-central-register-on-child-abuse-and-neglect-seriously-flawed

 

<<. New York State, in deed all states, also maintains a child abuse and maltreatment registry, known as the State Central Register….
Just how does your name get on the registry? After a phone call is made to the child abuse hotline, a report of the call is made to Child Protective Services (CPS). CPS launches an investigation that can take up to sixty days to complete. When the investigator completes her investigation, she either indicates the report or declares that it is unfounded. An unfounded report means that the investigator found no evidence of neglect or abuse. An indicated report means that the investigator found some evidence of neglect or abuse. Once a report is indicated, the person who allegedly abused or neglected a child is immediately placed on the child abuse registry.

All it takes then to be placed on the registry is one person’s investigation, resulting in her belief that there is some evidence that abuse or neglect took place. The investigator is not required to find that there is a preponderance of evidence pointing to guilt, but only some evidence.


…. , but there are also many cases where the person is found innocent. If a person is found innocent, his or her name is not automatically removed from the registry

What is disturbing about the child abuse and maltreatment registry is that, regardless of whether or not a person is guilty, he or she is placed on the registry before having a chance to defend his or her innocence.

These laws are unfair and most likely unconstitutional, but no one has challenged them. Most of the people on the list, whether guilty or innocent, are the kind that can’t afford an attorney to represent them at a “fair hearing”....>>

 

One of the comments

 

<< i reported my exhusband for abusing our daughter and as a result i was placed on the registry. My degree in Child and Family Development is of no use to me any more. All my past experience working with children is worthless.>>

 

I like the reforms recommended below

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/12/science/12child.html

 

<<<….Child Protective Services investigated more than three million cases of suspected child abuse in 2007, but a new study suggests that the investigations did little or nothing to improve the lives of those children.

Other experts agreed. “I don’t see investigation as an intervention. I see it as an activity to gather information,” said Jill Duerr Berrick, a professor of social welfare at the University of California, Berkeley. “While we might all hope that C.P.S. could do more, in the current context it doesn’t. This is an important study that will get people talking again.” Dr. Berrick was not involved in the work.


In an editorial published with the study, starkly titled “Child Protective Services Has Outlived Its Usefulness,” Dr. Abraham B. Bergman suggests some essential changes: child abuse, because it is a crime, should be investigated by the police; public health nursing services should be the first to respond to concerns of child neglect; social workers should assess appropriate living situations and work with families to obtain services, and not be engaged in law enforcement. But Dr. Bergman, who is a pediatrician at the Harborview Medical Center in Seattle, expressed considerable skepticism that such changes would happen.

 

(How come these reforms were never implemented?)

 

 

Rethinking the Paradigm for Child Protection - Academic Commons
academiccommons.columbia.edu/.../08_01_06.pdf‎


 
<<...This brief description of the current CPS
system highlights the fact that CPS is primarily
an investigative system designed to
intervene authoritatively with families whose
children are at risk of serious abuse or
neglect. These families, however, constitute
only a small share of the families referred to
CPS. Seven of ten cases are not investigated
at all or are closed after the investigation.
For this latter group of families, one has to
wonder how effective and helpful CPS has
been. In spite of having been referred to
CPS and, in some cases, having undergone
a coercive and intrusive investigation, none
of these families end up receiving ongoing
services.

******

For a variety of reasons, some families are
unjustly or inappropriately reported to CPS,
exposing them unnecessarily to coercive and
intrusive investigations. That problem can
be termed “overinclusion.”


One stream of
reform proposals focuses on the concerns
about overinclusion, capacity, and service orientation,
and suggests that the mandate of
CPS should be more narrowly defined and
more vigorously pursued.
 

….some reformers would limit CPS
intervention to cases in which a criminal act
has been perpetrated against a child and
would locate CPS in the criminal justice
system, rather than the social services arena.
Presumably, this shift would resolve the tension
between the CPS agency’s investigative
and helping roles, and would allow social
workers to focus their attention on cases
of noncriminal maltreatment.15>>
 
..

 


Advice for suing CPS if necessary
http://fightcps.com/2010/12/03/how-to-sue-cps-in-federal-court/#comment-1431427h

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#40 of 57 Old 03-06-2014, 07:01 PM
 
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Unfortunately, the most pervasive and insidious form of abuse, neglect, is nearly impossible to prove. If CPS investigates, it's about 99% likely nothing will happen, so long as the children are clean and fed and the house isn't festering with roaches and dirty diapers. No bruises? No abuse has occurred.
I heard ^this^ from my daughter's home health nurse, who made several visits a week while my little NICU graduate was adjusting to life outside the womb.

A mom calls in to say, "I think my _____ (boyfriend/ older child/ neighbor, etc) has been sexually abusing my child," and the MOTHER can be charged with child abuse.
[/begin sarcasm] DUH, as a parent it's your job to protect your child at all times. What were you thinking leaving your kid with your father? [/end sarcasm]
I heard ^this^ from a family law attorney, who had represented several clients on cases where the aforementioned happened.

I've shed many tears reading stories about CPS, and hearing stories about acquaintances who've had to deal with CPS/ foster care, and have made friends with many people who are victims of foster care and CPS. My heart goes out to foster parents, because I firmly believe most foster parents have their heart in the right place. To all the awesome foster parents of the world, *CHEERS! YOU ROCK!*

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#41 of 57 Old 03-06-2014, 07:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by preemieprincess View Post
 

A mom calls in to say, "I think my _____ (boyfriend/ older child/ neighbor, etc) has been sexually abusing my child," and the MOTHER can be charged with child abuse.
[/begin sarcasm] DUH, as a parent it's your job to protect your child at all times. What were you thinking leaving your kid with your father? [/end sarcasm]
I heard ^this^ from a family law attorney, who had represented several clients on cases where the aforementioned happened.

I think I mentioned her, but this happened to someone I know- she and her child's father were broken up, the child revealed to her therapist that hse was being molested at her dad's house, mom calls CPS- they investigated her and did nothing about the dad's house situation even after he kidnapped the child. Thankfully, she was able to raise money to hire a lawyer and go through family court directly to get her baby back and protections in place. That was just utterly appalling to me- it wasn't even a he-said/she-said, they had a therapist to attest to it and CPS still didn't want to hear it.

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#42 of 57 Old 03-07-2014, 07:09 AM
 
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Well, all i can say is, i will be calling the police, not the CPS, if ever i suspected abuse in my own kids.

Thanks Gd for this thread, because i would not have known that.

Also, it looks like being a single mother might just be to my advantage....

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#43 of 57 Old 03-07-2014, 07:17 AM
 
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Well, all i can say is, i will be calling the police, not the CPS, if ever i suspected abuse in my own kids.

Thanks Gd for this thread, because i would not have known that.

Also, it looks like being a single mother might just be to my advantage....


I think the police may defer to CPS, but I'm not really sure. Hopefully you'll never have to face it.


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#44 of 57 Old 03-07-2014, 08:07 AM
 
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I feel that domestic abuse is somewhat similar to child abuse, so I share this story about my own experience with calling the police in regard to finding myself in a "domestic situation," as the police refer to it.

Partner ransacks the house, breaking furniture, throwing food at the wall, etc. The police (both men) arrive, and say, "Sweetheart, where are your bruises? You can file a civil suit for all the broken stuff, but breaking your stuff isn't domestic violence." I respond, "My father taught my sister and me to defend ourselves. Just because I'm strong and fast and ducked out of the way as he threw furniture at me, it's not abuse? By the way, my name is ____, do NOT call me sweetheart. Next time, should I let him knock my teeth out, officer?"

Fast forward to the end of the joke that was calling the police that night, they tell us to "kiss and make up" as they walk out the door.

Yeeeeah... don't know how much I'd trust the police to handle a child abuse situation, either.

No worries, I ended that relationship years ago.

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#45 of 57 Old 03-07-2014, 08:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post
 

Well, all i can say is, i will be calling the police, not the CPS, if ever i suspected abuse in my own kids.

Thanks Gd for this thread, because i would not have known that.

Also, it looks like being a single mother might just be to my advantage....


In many jurisdictions the police turn the situation over to CPS.

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#46 of 57 Old 03-07-2014, 01:52 PM
 
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In many jurisdictions the police turn the situation over to CPS.

In that case,  i would consult a lawyer before telling anyone. But then they would accuse me of covering up, so your damned if you do, and your damned if you dont.

 

Also, in the case of criminal prosecution, why would the police turn the case over to the CPS? The CPS are not qualified for  a criminal investigation. Do the police just drop the case when they turn it over to the CPS, or do they continue with a professional criminal investigation?  Presumably they continue doing the work  taxpayers pay them for. 

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#47 of 57 Old 03-07-2014, 01:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by preemieprincess View Post
 

I feel that domestic abuse is somewhat similar to child abuse, so I share this story about my own experience with calling the police in regard to finding myself in a "domestic situation," as the police refer to it.

Partner ransacks the house, breaking furniture, throwing food at the wall, etc. The police (both men) arrive, and say, "Sweetheart, where are your bruises? You can file a civil suit for all the broken stuff, but breaking your stuff isn't domestic violence." I respond, "My father taught my sister and me to defend ourselves. Just because I'm strong and fast and ducked out of the way as he threw furniture at me, it's not abuse? By the way, my name is ____, do NOT call me sweetheart. Next time, should I let him knock my teeth out, officer?"

Fast forward to the end of the joke that was calling the police that night, they tell us to "kiss and make up" as they walk out the door.

Yeeeeah... don't know how much I'd trust the police to handle a child abuse situation, either.

No worries, I ended that relationship years ago.

 

One of the websites i dug up that i quoted in this thread recommends telling the police over the CPS for a variety of reasons.

Let me find the website. again

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#48 of 57 Old 03-07-2014, 02:05 PM
 
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  from

http://justicewomen.com/tips_bewarechildprotectiveservices.html  (in the state of California)

 

 

Quote

A. Tips on How and Where to Report Child Abuse

NOTE: If you are a mandated reporter outside California, please check your state's mandated reporting law to determine if your law, like California and many other states, allows mandated reporters the option of reporting to law enforcement rather than to CPS.

* Whether you are a mandated reporter, an advocate, or a non-offending parent who suspects child abuse, DO NOT report to child protective services unless other options have failed. (see above note.) Make your child abuse report to police or other law enforcement agency, at least initially.

The best way to protect the non-offending parent and the child victim from the inherent risks and abuses of the CPS system is to stay as far away from CPS as possible. If you are a mandated reporter, or any individual wishing to make a child abuse report, we highly recommend that you choose to make your report to law enforcement (i.e. to police or sheriff), and not to CPS....

 

End Quote

 

Theres alot more detail  on the website

 

Quote

....In broad summary, the criminal justice system responds to family violence, including child abuse, as crime. The criminal justice system aims to hold the offender accountable for the acts of child abuse, and to do so using a rigorous standard of evidence....

 

 

....In contrast, the CPS/juvenile court system is not designed to treat child abuse, or any family violence, as crime. The CPS system does not seek to hold the child abuse offender accountable, and has virtually no power to do so. CPS does not have the power to open, nor to carry out, a criminal investigation, does not have the power of arrest, nor does CPS have the power to prosecute perpetrators. The only significant power CPS has is the power to remove children from one or both parents...

 

Furthermore, the CPS system, unlike the criminal system, will frequently target the non-offending parent; i.e., will likely investigate the non-offending parent for non-criminal behavior such as 'failure to protect',......

 

.....NOTE 1: If you make your child abuse report to police, it may be that at one point or other the police themselves may call in CPS to participate in handling the case to one degree or another. However, even if CPS does begin to take a role in the case, the non-offending parent and the child will still generally be much better off than if you had only made your report to CPS. This is because the criminal system will generally continue to take the lead in the case....

 

.....In addition, any criminal justice abuses against the non-offending parent would be an individual officer failing to follow established policy. As such, this abuse would be easier to correct. The abuses of the CPS system against the non-offending parent, on the other hand, are built into the CPS system. When CPS unjustly targets the mother as subject of investigation, accusations, and threats to take the child, these abuses are difficult to correct with advocacy, because they fall within the scope of standard CPS policy and practice....

 

....If you make your initial child abuse report to law enforcement, it may be that the police officer will willingly take your report, work hard to investigate the case....

....But be aware. A significant number of police and prosecutors themselves still hold to the mind set that family violence should not be treated as a crime. Some of these officers will say and do whatever they can to get rid of you and the case, despite the fact that US state laws require that police treat family violence as crime. These officers may refuse to take the report, tell you to go elsewhere to make the report..........

 

..........If an officer outright refuses to take your report, or attempts to get you to make your report elsewhere, the best thing to do is to immediately call the officer's supervisor, or call the police agency's on-call sergeant, or the head of the family violence unit..........

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#49 of 57 Old 03-27-2014, 11:05 AM
 
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That poor girl. It doesn't even sound like what's going on effects her mentally, at least not to the degree that she can't at least be involved in discussions about her life- but it sounds like everything is being done to her. Is that what she wants? If it is- then that's a big red flag that the parents may be part of the problem (it can happen). If it's not- that's just awful. 15 year olds can file for emancipation.

 

I'm also really concerned that she apparently had a diagnosis, and now (with a different doctor) her diagnosis is "we don't know what's wrong with her, so it's all in her head". I really don't like how a lot of medical things work in this country...


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#51 of 57 Old 03-28-2014, 05:26 AM
 
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She just spent a year as a prisoner in a psych ward. It's hard to imagine she has much gumption left.

I always wish I could go around to all the involved people in cases likre these to try to ascertain all the facts. I never know who to believe.
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When a family fights so hard to get their child back, when a parents lose custody for being angry at medical staff (how is that logical?), then i side with the family. Did the family lose custody because they were abusing their daughter, or because the father lost his temper? The article says the latter. Blame the journalist for lying i suppose, but then you have to wonder why they judge placed a gag order on the father....

 

My point is, sometime the facts that are known, speak for themselves.

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#53 of 57 Old 03-29-2014, 07:50 AM
 
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It does make me curious why another daughter with the mito disorder was left in their care.
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#54 of 57 Old 04-12-2014, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polliwog View Post

CPS is not one entity. Each state has it's own and it's often administered locally.

Yes, and I think it is very different in different regions of the U.S. I'm an unschooling, non-vaxing mom in Missouri and have had two different people make CPS reports against me, once in 2008 and once in 2011. In both cases, the social workers were very respectful to me and my family, and after brief visits, said they saw no reason to open a case.

 

Even though I'd previously heard the advice to refuse to let them in without a warrant, in both cases, my gut instinct told me that it was okay to go ahead and cooperate. And I am not the greatest housekeeper, but I went with my gut and let them come through the house. They were respectful in walking through the house with me and didn't even enter bathrooms or open cabinets or anything.

 

I carefully read through the paperwork they gave me, which they gave me a carbon copy of, and saw that, in both cases, I was signing a statement that my home was safe. I suppose that it wouldn't be a good idea to sign something if you have any reading comprehension issues, but it was all very easy and clear for me, personally.

 

But I don't think my positive experiences discount the horrid realities that some families have encountered. And I honestly don't know whether a third experience would be just as positive for me. I really think the best defense is just knowing our rights and then, if we're confronted with a situation, following our instincts about how to deal with it.

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Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
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#55 of 57 Old 06-15-2014, 03:29 PM
 
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#56 of 57 Old 06-19-2014, 07:33 AM
 
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Blundering CPS and and ignorant doctors strike again…. …parents accused of abuse for wanting daughter to be seen by a gastroenterologist



http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/15/justina/vnwzbbNdiodSD7WDTh6xZI/story.html

<< The parents…. complained that despite their repeated requests, Justina had still not been seen by her gastroenterologist. They became furious when the Children’s team informed the parents that they would be prohibited from seeking second opinions......>>

<<Still, allegations of suspected medical child abuse become far murkier when the parents’ assessment of the child is backed by reputable physicians at different hospitals. Some child-protection doctors, whose field has recently been elevated to a board-certified specialty, are beginning to draw criticism — even from some unlikely quarters.

Dr. Eli Newberger, a pediatrician who founded the child protection team at Children’s in 1970 and ran it for three decades, cautions that “doctors in this new specialty have enormous and really unchecked power.”

As an expert witness in cases around the country, Newberger said he’s seen a tendency for state child-welfare agencies to be “overly credulous to hospitals” and for some child protection teams to show a “reflexive willingness to label and to punish,” especially educated mothers who are perceived as being too pushy. (...
as I said blundering cps, and now they use their power because a mother is too pushy when defending her children's rights....thats a good one)

<<....Assertive parents, armed with information from Internet support groups and believing they’re advocating for their child’s best interests, risk alienating doctors and nurses, leaving them few allies if they find themselves accused of medical child abuse…>>


Some good news-law courts intervene and return girl to parents 16mth later....


http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...hisSection_Top
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#57 of 57 Old 06-19-2014, 10:00 AM
 
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Eurgh, love the dismissive "internet support groups".

It's really awful. If you try to push for a second opinion or for a closer look, you get accused of mistreating your children. I've heard about it being really bad with NICU situations- where doctors will put a perfectly healthy child in the NICU because they get more money if they do, and if you question it, you get charged with medical abuse. You could lose your baby before getting to even hold them. I hope that's not still the case, I heard about it a few years ago.

Doctors aren't gods. They can make mistakes, misdiagnose things, and cause serious damage if they do. Every parent should have a right to get a second opinion, or third or fourth or fifth, especially if you're getting a second opinion from another "real" doctor (I can see the argument against homeopathy/herbal options with kids, whether or not I agree with it, but another "proper" doctor?!). And doctors should be adults who can handle being questioned, rather than taking out wounded pride on helpless children.

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