Continuum concept (ish) Tribe - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#301 of 1095 Old 11-01-2005, 07:23 PM
 
KateSt.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In the Spirit Baby Realm
Posts: 1,393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Here it is:
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm

computergeek2.gif  Spirit Baby Intuitive (and really cool chick)

KateSt. is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#302 of 1095 Old 11-01-2005, 08:37 PM
 
WuWei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the moment
Posts: 11,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just wanted to subscribe to this thread as we are AP, CCish, non-coercive, unconditional parenting, radical unschooling, consensual living, TCSish.

Glad to see you all.

Pat

I have a blog.
WuWei is offline  
#303 of 1095 Old 11-01-2005, 08:53 PM
 
Girl Named Sandoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: On the road to Mandalay...
Posts: 1,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KateSt.
Great article!

He puts a lot of things into words that I've been feeling but haven't had as sorted in my mind. It's really helpful to see it all broken down and spelled out.
Girl Named Sandoz is offline  
#304 of 1095 Old 11-01-2005, 10:22 PM
 
pjlioness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Far NW Chicago Suburb
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Scott Noelle is a regular contributor on the CC discussion list. He's pretty amazing. If anyone is interested in the official CC site/the discussion list, the URL is www.continuum-concept.org
pjlioness is offline  
#305 of 1095 Old 11-02-2005, 12:30 PM
 
FreeSpiritMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisfitMama
Hey, as long as I'm reminded that this thread is here, I'd like to tell everyone about 4 books I read recently which I thought were EXCELLENT companion books to The Continuum Concept, and they are:

Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074...books&v=glance

Hold Onto Your Kids by Neufeld and Mate
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/037...books&v=glance

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...books&v=glance

The Story of B by Daniel Quinn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...books&v=glance

I'd love to hear who has read them and what you think about them in relation to TCC and your lives. . .

MisfitMama
I recently finished UP and loved it and have just purchased Hold onto Your Kids so its great to know another TCC mama liked it Love to discuss it with you when I've read it.

Scott Noells 'Where's my Centre' was a great read as its an area I really struggle with mentally.
FreeSpiritMama is offline  
#306 of 1095 Old 11-04-2005, 01:13 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
KateSt., funny bumping into you here. I just put it all together!
flowers is offline  
#307 of 1095 Old 11-04-2005, 03:02 PM
 
Ellien C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: in the middle ages
Posts: 5,496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbandj
I've heard not to swap spit with your baby because they can pick up bad bacteria from your mouth and then get cavities. I have lots of fillings, I just can't see myself chewing up food and giving the food to her along with my bugs. What do you all think about this?
THanks!
I want to address this with a little bit of research and some ideas I've had.
I read a study once where the cultured the "mouth flora" of babies and mothers. Under 6 months, the babies had their own dominant strains of mouth flora. But after 6 months, when the children started to get teeth, the babies acquired mom's strain of mouth flora.

My mother, my siblings and myself have always had what mom called "soft teeth." She said we all inherited her bad teeth and we've all had lots of cavities despite brushing. We had a standard American diet too with lots of sweets, but so do lots of people and they don't all have teeth as bad as us. My personal theory isn't that we inherited bad teeth, but that we inherited strong mouth bacteria that attack the teeth.

So, in order not to pass this bad bacteria on to my daughter, I've tried to be cautious about swapping spit. Not militant, but just acting like it's normal that we all have our own glasses, plates, utensils and tooth brusheas. I think I read TCC after she'd started solids and baby foods, so it just never ocurred to me to chew it up and give it to her. Not sure what I will do with the next kid.

Interestingly, a friend of mine, who works at the Dental society studied teeth and cavities. She said the rate of cavities in the middle ages (have I mentioned on this thread that I'm a medieval recreationist) wasn't any worse than the current rate. Something like 8 teeth in 100 have cavities. She said she always had this perception that teeth were so poor in the middle ages due to poor diet and bad hygiene. But our current sugar-laden diet doesn't seem to be anyworse than the middle ages. None of which has anything to do with tribal living, diet or hygiene, but it's related to teeth.

Just wanted to share my pet theory.

Third generation WOHM. I work by choice.
Ellien C is offline  
#308 of 1095 Old 11-04-2005, 06:58 PM
 
JohnnysGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Land of the Ice & Snow
Posts: 6,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm having a trying time with my two year old. We live in a small, modern apartment downtown in a largeish city, and we just....have nothing to do. Well, I do, just keeping up with changing diapers and clothes and feeding/shopping/cooking/cleaning for my family of 4 (one of whom is only 2 months old and in arms). But for him, we have nothing to do, really, as my responsibilities (such as breastfeeding the baby and yes I can do it in the sling even walking but still I can't always do very much else while breastfeeding) bore him and he has to try to find interesting ways to get my attention, so we have a daily routine of heading to the city's largest playground in the mornings and cruising around running errands in the afternoon in town, and being at home all evenings before bed, as I simply cannot stay in our apartment all day with the baby and my toddler--he goes mad with boredom and starts wrecking the house or having a screaming fit. Basically I feel like I try desperately to juggle just getting through the day with my toddler so he doesn't go nuts because there's nothing going on for him in our little flat, while not getting too far behind on laundry/cleaning/shopping.

He has screaming fits. Sometimes just throws himself facedown in the gravel at the playground because I'm not paying direct attention to him and he's bored, despite all the other kids playing all sorts of games around him. Sometimes he throws a tantrum because I won't let him open the gate and head, alone and on foot, towards oncoming traffic outside the gated playground. I try so hard to just expect him to behave, expect that a casual explanation of why he shouldn't walk into a busy city street would do the trick, but it doesn't and he just goes berserk sometimes and then I do also. : But staying in (which he says he would prefer to do) at home leads to even more tension as he tries, for example, turning the oven on full heat and opening the door and sticking as much of himself in as possible, while I've got a crying baby I'm trying to soothe simultaneously. : I am nearby so this doesn't get very far (not even warm yet) before I put a stop to it, but I am at my wit's end trying to figure out how to deal with life with him, in a CC parenting kind of way. It's not going well.
Thanks for reading.
JohnnysGirl is offline  
#309 of 1095 Old 11-04-2005, 07:13 PM
 
MisfitMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Butterflymom,

How long has all this "difficult" behavior been going on - just since the baby was born?

I don't have a new baby, but I would like to sympathize with you about living in an apartment in an urban area. I have a 2.5-year old and we live in a 1-bedroom with no yard. . . and I am losing my mind! We, too, leave every morning just to get out of the house, because ds whines all morning otherwise. We are using up way too much gas and some days I just can't think of anything to do. To tell you the truth, I hate playgrounds. Thank God I have a lot of friends with kids, but even so, I can't find good things to do every day. It's something I am really struggling with right now. That probably isn't helpful, but I thought you might like to know there's someone else in your same predicament, as far as feeling cooped up (and winter is coming!)

Also, as far as "expecting" behavior - I think there are 2 levels of "expecting." There is consciously trying to expect YOUR KID to do non-antisocial things, and then there is the deep understanding that children are PROGRAMMED to behave "socially." Of course sometimes they don't want to do what you want them to do, but if you can relax and let it go, they will come around. I think the more we try to get them to stop doing things, the more they will do it. (That's my experience anyway.) OTOH, when you have a new baby, I think everyone gets thrown out of whack. Also, I think that a 2-2.5 year age gap is exceptionally difficult for everyone. Do you have some other mamas you can hang out with to help you deal with the situation?

MisfitMama
MisfitMama is offline  
#310 of 1095 Old 11-05-2005, 04:51 AM
 
JohnnysGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Land of the Ice & Snow
Posts: 6,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisfitMama
Butterflymom,

How long has all this "difficult" behavior been going on - just since the baby was born?
Do you have some other mamas you can hang out with to help you deal with the situation?

MisfitMama
No, and yes. No he has been acting a bit tantrum-y since my milk disappeared in February but it has been slowly escalating into what I've been told to expect as 'the terrible twos.' But I never bought that, I swear! I always expected my little angel to continue to just be an angel as toddlerhood unfolded past his second birthday, and each hysterical tantrum I just tried to read his cues and get through, and brushed off as an occasional meltdown due to stress of some kind in his life. But....now it really does seem like there's something to this 'terrible twos' stupid thing.

I do have other mamas to hang out with, but not everyday. There's about 4 or 5 mom friends in the city I can hang out with,a nd that helps to pass the day, but I hate this time in my life when I'm struggling to get through the day coming up with things to do and just counting the hours until bedtime so that I can flop on the couch and not have two kiddos screaming at me. I'm sure it's that they sense the insecurity I have about what to do with them that is making them unsettled, but I don't know what to do, in practice, to remedy all this. I babywear the infant and push my son in his carriage through the busy city shop-lined streets, just to get out of the house and watch the world go by, and the boys are much more content this way...but then I just end up pushing/carrying them all over town for sometimes 8 hours in a row! You can imagine if bedtime then doesn't go well, with the boys taking a few hours to both fall asleep, alternating waking each other up in our family bed as I try to put them to sleep at about the same time (which is the time they are obviously tired and ready to sleep), I just about lose my mind and have a hard time fighting back tears after a 15 hour day of trying to keep them from both being hysterical at me at the same time. Really stressful. The other day my son darted from the playground and I really had to pull 'the boss' routine which I hate and feels wrong, to keep him from going into traffic, and put him kicking and screaming and cryinginto the stroller, and he was hitting the sleeping baby during this physical struggle, waking him and sending him into hysterics, and they were both screaming their heads off as I headed off from the playground towards home, and I couldn't keep from crying, right there in public on the street, myself! The only person I could call (husband was at the gym, not answering a phone), was my stiff businessman father in law, who promised to help out the following night (last night). Things have been better the last 12 hours, but I still feel like I'm on the edge......
JohnnysGirl is offline  
#311 of 1095 Old 11-05-2005, 07:40 PM
 
MisfitMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Butterflymama,

Oh, I wish there was something I could do for you. I can't even co-miserate since I have only one child, although, I too, was determined not to feel like there were any "terrible twos" and I must say this age is much harder than I expected. I never think of ds as having tantrums (although maybe other people do) because he rarely seems mad (or when he does, he just yells at me! :0) But anyway, he does break down into sobs/screams several times a day even if I just try to take a shower, or tell him that somebody already ate all the pizza, or that we have to return a library book.

Ugh. . .well, 8 hours a day of walking, that must be EXCELLENT for your health. Maybe you could have this be a challenge to you at this time in your life to become a fitness goddess? It's definitely compatible with CC parenting. When I was babywearing almost 24/7, I felt amazing. Now that ds is older and he doesn't want to walk, be carried, or ride in strollers, I get much less exercise and I can feel my whole body turning to jell-o.

Could you do yoga to a video inside the house? What about starting up some kind of group? People here have started up fiber arts groups, dinner club groups, outing groups, unschooling/homeschooling groups, mother/baby yoga groups, playgroups, etc.

Well, I hope someone else has some advice for you. You could also try calling the abovementioned Scott Noelle - I bet he could help you!

MisfitMama
MisfitMama is offline  
#312 of 1095 Old 11-05-2005, 08:34 PM
 
WuWei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the moment
Posts: 11,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterflymom
I'm having a trying time with my two year old. We live in a small, modern apartment downtown in a largeish city, and we just....have nothing to do. Well, I do, just keeping up with changing diapers and clothes and feeding/shopping/cooking/cleaning for my family of 4 (one of whom is only 2 months old and in arms). But for him, we have nothing to do, really, as my responsibilities (such as breastfeeding the baby and yes I can do it in the sling even walking but still I can't always do very much else while breastfeeding) bore him and he has to try to find interesting ways to get my attention, so we have a daily routine of heading to the city's largest playground in the mornings and cruising around running errands in the afternoon in town, and being at home all evenings before bed, as I simply cannot stay in our apartment all day with the baby and my toddler--he goes mad with boredom and starts wrecking the house or having a screaming fit. Basically I feel like I try desperately to juggle just getting through the day with my toddler so he doesn't go nuts because there's nothing going on for him in our little flat, while not getting too far behind on laundry/cleaning/shopping.

He has screaming fits. Sometimes just throws himself facedown in the gravel at the playground because I'm not paying direct attention to him and he's bored, despite all the other kids playing all sorts of games around him. Sometimes he throws a tantrum because I won't let him open the gate and head, alone and on foot, towards oncoming traffic outside the gated playground. I try so hard to just expect him to behave, expect that a casual explanation of why he shouldn't walk into a busy city street would do the trick, but it doesn't and he just goes berserk sometimes and then I do also. : But staying in (which he says he would prefer to do) at home leads to even more tension as he tries, for example, turning the oven on full heat and opening the door and sticking as much of himself in as possible, while I've got a crying baby I'm trying to soothe simultaneously. : I am nearby so this doesn't get very far (not even warm yet) before I put a stop to it, but I am at my wit's end trying to figure out how to deal with life with him, in a CC parenting kind of way. It's not going well.
Thanks for reading.
Ok, I hope I don't get bashed. We have always just given simple explanations without restrictions for our son. And modelled safe behavior. But I am only one person and in the CC tribe there were many models in their environment which were reinforcing the children's observations. I don't think it is realistic to expect a child to observe one time in a dangerous enviornment and do anything perfectly. Crossing a street is a complex task which children do learn with enough modelling.

I only have one son and when he was that age he was in arms. I don't know the age separation of most children in the CC tribe; but regardless, I imagine there were many 2 year olds in arms still, much of the time. Our son had the opportunity to be in arms crossing the road through out his third and even fourth year, whenever he desired. And he preferred to be up to see the world from a higher pov. He also loved to run head long. But he had plenty of opportunities to do that and then I just offered or he requested to be up in arms when we crossed the road. Or I offered or he requested to hold my hand when we crossed the road.

I am not suggesting that you can do this. I am just suggesting that your experience may not parrot what you have read about children in the CC because our social support system and our age spacing may be differerent. As are many other environmental variables. We don't live next to busy streets generally for them to have many, many opportunities to observe crossing busy roads. And we are not a group of women crossing the street together.

And as far as playing by themselves. I don't believe CC children had the occasion to be self engaging in a enclosed environment without other activity occuring simultaneously that was on par with something where the child could participate. Fortunately, our machines for cleaning are more advanced than in the CC. But children can help with parts of the cleaning activities. However, I didn't observe that much for ds to do alone in the house. We basically lived most days at the park or out and about until he was about three. Just like you describe. Because the world was more interesting outside than in. I wasn't engaging with him specifically; he was engaging himself because he wanted to explore and master the play areas and absorb everything around us. We have had the benefit of creating a group of friends who met at the park too. And their children's familiarity certainly prompted engaged play.

I am not sure if your expectation of your son never having frustrated emotional expressions is consistent with the different social engagement opportunities that a nuclear family environment creates. With many activities of household chores, I too postponed them until necessary or asked dh to help. (Dh learned more about keeping a household than he ever wanted to know. ) And I did the non-delegatable tasks of nursing and child care during the day as my focus. It is a lot to juggle alone without other women in the environment. That isn't how life flows in the CC tribe. There are interdependent relationships which are synergistic. So much more is able to be accomplished with many hands than with only two. You sound like you are doing it all! I'd suggest patting yourself on the back with one of those hands .

Pat

I have a blog.
WuWei is offline  
#313 of 1095 Old 11-06-2005, 01:57 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh mama! First of all I want to tell you that you are not alone! So many women are out there going through very similar struggles as you are right now.
Second of all, I really feel that while cc is such a relevation and great way to view parenting there are limitations on how much you can implement into our modern lives in the fact that the model cc is based on is completely different than the model most of us live (for example there are no busy roads in the jungle).

ALSO, A women would never be alone all day by herself with two young children.

I only have one of my own but I nanny a 4 yr old so I know what you mean. Also, I just went through a hellish three weeks of my 1 yo not taking naps and staying up until past 10 pm at night. I sounded like you...at the end of my rope and confused about my parental role and decisions.

This phase will past and it is all about you getting through it. Kids change through cycles so often and before you know it this part will be a memory so just deep breathe and know it will pass.

I can also relate immensely to the whole challenge of having to get all the household chores done but feel like there is no time for the kids in there and that can really exacerbate a situation.

In a model cc community there would be older kids 5, 7, 8, even adolescents who would be playing with your 2 year old. They would keep him busy busy and he could run back with you and check out the baby and what your doing, get a kiss and some food and then be off again. Instead you are left to play ALL the roles....how does this work...it just does not.

I try to think of this while I am trying to wash cd, food shop, cook, bf, pay bills etc...and I always have a deap longing for a tribe of sisters who went further than playgroups and just hanging out. Sisters who worked with me and shared in the responsibilites of raising a family.

Good luck mama and give yourself a lot of credit. We love you.
flowers is offline  
#314 of 1095 Old 11-06-2005, 03:35 PM
 
JohnnysGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Land of the Ice & Snow
Posts: 6,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I am not sure if your expectation of your son never having frustrated emotional expressions is consistent with the different social engagement opportunities that a nuclear family environment creates.
Oh of course I expect him to have frustrated emotional expressions! But yesterday for example he had ten screaming confrontations with me, despite my trying soooo hard not to be in situations in which he couldn't explore as he pleased (so I wouldn't have to say "no") unless absolutely necessary (like when he tried going into a nearby candy shop inside a mall while I was on a bench breastfeeding and helping himself to candy from the bins.) Three of the tantrums were absolute hysterical rages where he acts very similarly to the possessed girl in the Exorcist (not kidding! NOTHING works to get him out of this unless I can get a breast into his mouth and he latches on despite himself, or if he falls asleep) and is completely out-of-this-world unable to be reasoned with in any way or comforted in any way (comforting makes him scream louder and he tries kicking at us or scratching at our faces). This is how I start most days, it happens often during the day, and most evenings also. The mini-tantrums where he just cries and screams and may kick at me a little but I am able to get him to let it go just by moving along to a new place and acting casual....those are bearable but yesterday they came, on aveerage, every 90 minutes! I just get so tired, especially with a newborn in arms already....and whilst VERY rarely getting any break from him around the clock.


Quote:
With many activities of household chores, I too postponed them until necessary or asked dh to help.
DH has been great to his ability, but he is working a lot right now so we can afford to purchase land, build a home, and start our own village with other likeminded families we know with small children/babies/expecting baies.
So it's mostly me doing the child care and home care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flowers

I try to think of this while I am trying to wash cd, food shop, cook, bf, pay bills etc...and I always have a deap longing for a tribe of sisters who went further than playgroups and just hanging out. Sisters who worked with me and shared in the responsibilites of raising a family.
OMG me too...like a deep, intense, gut-wrenching longing for a tribe of sisters! And we'd live alongside each other doing real activities (yes I know in our modern lives we don't have so much 'to do' just to be clean, fed families, but in the village we are planning we could come up with great projects all the time that would feel like 'real work' --like building a neat playhouse, gardening, or elaborate science experiments or art projects, just whatever appeals to the members, adult and children alike, of the group, like unschooling for all!). We are trying desperately to get 4 other families we are friends with, who also plan on homeschooling(unschooling) and having more than two children, all committed to a plan of buying a lovely large lot near our city where we can split it up and construct a little village where everyone builds their own homes individually but we all contribute to build a common building where adults could work "from home" with tons of office equipment, and we would share learning resources, tools, games of all kinds...and where we would just hang out and party when we want a large open space for big activities with all the children (like parties!). We live in Finland, which is why we have to think about a large indoor space for learning activities and things like that...otherwise the woods would be great for all-day play of course. It's so dark and cold here for such a long time in the winter so it's really important to try to create a fun, rich indoor existence for small children, with more people present than just mom, toddler, and baby....everyone at the end of their tether!
But as nice as all that soudns to me, I still have to get through this winter without breaking down in tears myself on a regular basis, kwim? It's an isolated existence. Thanks so much to the ladies who have responded their support already, it means a lot to me...this has been such a confusing time for me and I had been so confident about my natural mothering skills before I had a two year old. :LOL
JohnnysGirl is offline  
#315 of 1095 Old 11-07-2005, 01:45 AM
 
MammaV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
butterflymomma,
I'm a mom of a super temper tantrum thrower, now four. Our best remedy was to pop her in the shower and let the water run over her until she calmed down. Running water will clear the body's energy field. It works. We also found bach flower essences to be helpful. We used holly for jealousy when #2 was born as well as rescue remedy which is great anti stress/anxiety. We also addressed her troubles with homeopathy. Her particular remedy state leans toward tantrums, hitting, biting, kicking, pulling hair, jealousy even to the point of hurting baby. Having her on her homeopathic remedy helps her deal with her stress and her adjustment into the family of four. I know that not everyone has a homeopath available, but if you do, it may be worth a shot. Some of these behaviors aren't done out of malice, but the child cannot actually help him/herself. I have experienced this first hand. Our bodies and whole selves are bombarded with all sorts of stresses in our modern world not experienced in simple life, I believe that we need to help strengthen our bodies to be able to cope with the stresses more productively. Homeopathy has worked for us and with it, we can more successfully live in a cc manner. Rescue Remedy goes with us everywhere. In the states we can pick it up at any health food store or natural foods store. It's relatively inexpensive, starting at about $10 for a small bottle.
Good luck with your son. I know that things will settle down. It's hard to find one's new place when the family grows for some youngsters, and even some adults. Consistent unconditional love and behavior will help that transition.
Lots of luck, you'll be in our prayers

Wife to my wonderful Pablo, mum to Roo 8/10/01, Vin 1/10/07, Bug 6/3/07, Butterbean 12/12/09
MammaV is offline  
#316 of 1095 Old 11-07-2005, 07:59 PM
 
KateSt.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In the Spirit Baby Realm
Posts: 1,393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi, Flowers! I've run into you in a few places haven't I? How is your little ones bedtime going? Finn has been doing really well at going to bed btw 8:45-9pm. It's actually been a lot easier than I thought!

Butterflymom -- You've received so much good feedback, but I just want to give you some added ((((HUGS))) and support. I'm sure this must be so difficult for your whole family. Please keep us posted and know that we're all here for you.

I, too, only have one child and can so relate to what many of you said about feeling isolated. Finn craves other people (as I'm sure all babies AND adults do) and we absolutely HAVE to leave the house every single day at least twice a day to keep him (and me) happy. Some days it's fine, other days I feel like I'm making up things to do, errands to run, just to have some sort of fabricated-tribe-like experience. As some of the othere mamas here posted, I'm not into play-dates, so I have to be very imaginitive.

We were at a family funeral this weekend (more of a celebration of life than anything else) and there were about 50 family members gathered afterwards for lunch. Finn, who had to get up early and hadn't napped at all was in his element. He LOVED being with all those adults and children of different ages. It made me yearn so badly to live closer to family -- and I have NEVER said that before! But it made me realize that even if your family drives you crazy, you should be with them and love them and have them around so you can share experiences, memories, chores, childcare, and wisdom. It's so sad that our culture has lost touch with that. Well, my times up...so gotta go.

Talk to you again soon...

computergeek2.gif  Spirit Baby Intuitive (and really cool chick)

KateSt. is offline  
#317 of 1095 Old 11-11-2005, 12:32 AM
 
KateSt.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In the Spirit Baby Realm
Posts: 1,393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Butterflymom-- been thinking of you and hope you're finding some relief.

Well, I've actually read through this thread twice but I can't remember the answer to the question I'm about to pose:

Anyone not childproof at all? No gates for stairs or even outlet covers?

Finn actually crawled up 10 stairs the other day without my even knowing where he was, and I know some mothers would have freaked out, but I was thrilled for him because he did it so well, so confidently, and without faltering. I watched him do it 4 more times in a row. He definitely can't go down yet, though. And though he has tried, I'm always with him and can help him if he needs it. Just wonder if I'm being REALLY irresponsible for trusting us so much? Maybe it'll be important when he starts walking?

He has gone for outlets several times, but I always just divert him and he never persists. Don't know if it's worth covering them up or not.

As an aside, we were visiting with Finn's Korean aunt (by marriage) over the weekend and I was surprised at how strict she was with what Finn could and couldn't play with. Even though I said it was okay, she wouldn't let him play with chopsticks, a coaster, or spices. She said in Korea they make a certain "ma ma" noise and gently slap the babies hand. I think she thought I was totally nuts! On the other hand, she said 90 percent of the babies in Korea are breastfed, and she was breastfed until she was 4.

computergeek2.gif  Spirit Baby Intuitive (and really cool chick)

KateSt. is offline  
#318 of 1095 Old 11-11-2005, 11:33 AM
 
WuWei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the moment
Posts: 11,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We had electrical outlet covers in *everywhere* when I was 5 months pregnant. I guess to keep me from sticking two metal items in both sides of the outlet at the same time. It really takes a lot to shock yourself. We left them there because they were so damn hard to remove. I really see no point in them but family will feel better about it. And then you don't have to go on and on discussing it over and over. Our son could remove them more easily than we could anyway. I didn't read TCC until he was about 7 months old.

When he wanted to plug and unplug electrical cords was a bit more stressful at first. He was probably about 18-24 months. I just assisted and discussed touching the plastic holder part and we never had an issue. I also just said, 'let mama know if you want to unplug something and I will help you'. And he would say 'I do it' to let me know each time. And I'd watch, sometimes helping to make sure it is pushed all the way in. We did that maybe 6-10 times over a couple of days and it was over. In spurts he would want to plug and unplug the vaccuum cleaner between age 2-3. But he was quite careful and proficient.

The gates came before TCC too. And frankly they just made my life easier. Anytime he went to the gate I just opened it and he crawled up. But it was safer when I was in the bathroom or something. I was paranoid about it at night, but that was silly because we co-slept and it wasn't like he was going to escape and fall down the stairs without me waking up. But, we did latch them at the top of the stairs. You might place something non-skid and soft at the bottom just to soften the crash. But basically, it is a very short time between trying to climb and able to climb.

The hardest time for me was when he was trying to stand without holding on. I was worried that he would end up with a concussion from toppling over. But since then, I see what a hard head he has (several seriously hard falls while running) and he is still quite intelligent despite several hard topples onto the hardwood floors when I wasn't right there. So, the gates don't keep them from whacking their heads, they find ways to do it anyway and survive just fine. There are no 'gates' to protect them from trying to stand and tripping while running and tripping over their toes, shoes, toys, my leg, etc. Falling is part of the program.

Do get some Arnica Montana 30c and Arnica topical creme. These help soft tissue damage, brusing and internal bleeding. They are amazing. We don't leave home without them. Our son was running down a cement driveway, tripped and ricochetted his forehead off the cement. He had an immediate small egg sized white knot. I applied the arnica creme and gave him some arnica pellets and he ran back out to play after crying and nursing of course. I called dh to tell him because I knew there would be a huge black and blue area on his head when he came home. But that evening the knot was flat, and only red and it *never* turned black and blue or yellow. And it was barely pink the next day. I have sworn by Arnica ever since. It is amazing. Another friend used it post op after a mastectomy and no other pain medicine.

I am evangelical about homeopathy. Anyway, hope that helps.

Pat

I have a blog.
WuWei is offline  
#319 of 1095 Old 11-11-2005, 04:37 PM
 
mollyeilis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: washington
Posts: 2,916
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KateSt.
As an aside, we were visiting with Finn's Korean aunt (by marriage) over the weekend and I was surprised at how strict she was with what Finn could and couldn't play with. Even though I said it was okay, she wouldn't let him play with chopsticks, a coaster, or spices. She said in Korea they make a certain "ma ma" noise and gently slap the babies hand. I think she thought I was totally nuts! On the other hand, she said 90 percent of the babies in Korea are breastfed, and she was breastfed until she was 4.

That's odd. My Korean MIL would let Eamon play with just about anything in her house. And says she wouldn't care if he broke it. The way it works in DH's family is that until the child is 2 years old, they are the KING/QUEEN of the household. My brother in law wasn't made to walk until he was 3 or so. He could, but he didn't. (and he was being cared for by his grandmother, who was older and more frail than my MIL) Anyway, all of the cousins in Robert's family are allowed to do whatever they want to, until they turn 2 (I think it's 2). And then after 2, they are taught some responsibility and are expected to behave better.

To Robert's great surprise, it actually works. He didin't think it would, seeing how the young cousins acted, but then on a later visit he saw those "wild" little ones responsibly taking care of their new, baby, siblings, who now were allowed to do whatever they like.


But yeah, breastfeeding is FAR more the norm. In fact, it was my Korean MIL, her sister, and the sister's husband that I nursed Eamon in front of the first time (I was out of it, though), and then they visited the next day and I nursed him again (with boobs bigger than his head LOL), full exposure, in front of them again. They didn't even think twice, and it was all cool.


*****
We childproof to an extent, but it's more to save our stuff from Eamon, rather than save Eamon from our stuff.

I don't have much of a problem with stairs, as long as they aren't too steep and are carpeted. He doesn't have much access to that sort of thing, but he does OK when he encounters them.
mollyeilis is offline  
#320 of 1095 Old 11-11-2005, 11:15 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I do have electrical plugs in "most" of the sockets but that is because I let ds roam free and he does like to stick things in there. I am not a fan of following him around all day. We just started up the woodstove for the winter and everymorning it is the first thing he does when he wakes up )blows to sign the word "hot" which we use for the stove). I get up with him and I crush some newspaper and he puts it in a and then when I light the fire he helps me blow on it. I teach him not to touch the stove but I pretty much expect him to have his own relationship with the fire an dknow when it is really hot he will not touch it.

Ditto what the last person said...we child proof to save our stuff from him...the things I do not want completely destroyed. We joke that we should start a demolition company with ds heading it!
flowers is offline  
#321 of 1095 Old 11-15-2005, 08:00 PM
 
KateSt.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In the Spirit Baby Realm
Posts: 1,393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks so much for your feedback Pat, Hillary, and Mollyeilis. I really appreciate it! We did buy a gate yesterday, but it looks even more hazardous than just stairs so we're not going to use it. I can't figure out if I'm just too lazy to childproof or just going with my instincts! There ARE some things we own that I would like to save from Finn as you said, however.

Pat, I did pick up some arnica montana 30 today and some arnica gel. I used arnica after childbirth and I'm sure it helped. Thanks for the reminders. Since you're a homepathic queen, what do you suggest for baby colds? Liquid echinecea (sp?) or something else? TIA.

computergeek2.gif  Spirit Baby Intuitive (and really cool chick)

KateSt. is offline  
#322 of 1095 Old 11-15-2005, 09:23 PM
 
WuWei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the moment
Posts: 11,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KateSt.
Pat, I did pick up some arnica montana 30 today and some arnica gel. I used arnica after childbirth and I'm sure it helped. Thanks for the reminders. Since you're a homepathic queen, what do you suggest for baby colds? Liquid echinecea (sp?) or something else? TIA.
Actually we are on classical homeopathy so we don't use acute remedies except for severe issues like emergency first aid. And some Bach flower remedies on rare occasion. I really do not know how to recommend acute remedies. There may be a 'natural health' forum that could help. But, we don't get sick while on classical homeopathy; so you might check that out. We see a professional homeopath to proscribe accurately though. Self-proscribing classical homeopathy is tricky, imo.

Pat

I have a blog.
WuWei is offline  
#323 of 1095 Old 11-15-2005, 10:16 PM
 
KateSt.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In the Spirit Baby Realm
Posts: 1,393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks, Pat. I WILL check out classical homeopathy. Sounds great!

computergeek2.gif  Spirit Baby Intuitive (and really cool chick)

KateSt. is offline  
#324 of 1095 Old 11-17-2005, 03:27 PM
 
EnviroBecca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 5,194
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
EnviroBaby is a great stair climber! He learned to go up about a month ago. Then he wanted to go down, so he crawled to the edge of the top step (I was right there watching) and looked down. He stretched his hand tentatively toward the next step down, but just as he reached it he felt himself begin to tip forward, so he pulled back. After a few rounds of this, he decided he couldn't go down headfirst and stopped trying. He then studied the problem by climbing on and off a cushion in various directions. Then he tried going down the stairs in a sideways-until-one-leg-is-down-then-backward fashion and was quite successful. He has slipped a couple of times but hasn't taken a serious fall. We have a gate only at the top of the stairs.

Now that he's adept at crawling, I've noticed that he prefers to be near an adult (usually me, but sometimes he'll follow EnviroDaddy or a visitor) at all times. I used to set him up w/toys on a quilt in the dining room and then cook or do chores mostly in the kitchen, checking on him every so often, and he seemed okay w/that...but now that he has control over where he is, if I go into the kitchen even for a second, he's headed in there! This pretty much eliminates worries about his climbing the stairs or something without supervision, because he stays where we can see him! This is also true in public places where he's comfortable enough to be on the floor, such as church coffee hour or Girl Scout meeting: He explores, but he's never >10 feet away from me.

My aunt and I have been corresponding about children's safety. She's raised chickens for years, and she told me that her 22-month-old granddaughter recently collected the eggs for the first time, bringing back happy memories of how her daughter collected the eggs as a toddler. My aunt says, "Sure, there's a broken egg once in a while, but it's no big deal compared to the convenience of having a kid who can go get the eggs!"

Mama to a boy EnviroKid treehugger.gif 9 years old and a new little girl EnviroBaby baby.gif!

I write about parenting, environment, cooking, and more. computergeek2.gif

EnviroBecca is offline  
#325 of 1095 Old 11-18-2005, 12:26 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We talked about this earlier in the thread , but it may be worth bringing it up again. Teaching them feet first is easy and makes SUCH a difference. From an early age I did not even blink when ds was on a high bed or at the top of 4 or five stairs. Of course mothers always have their eagle eye fine tuned and I was there when he did need assistance or was trying something beyond his comfort level.
flowers is offline  
#326 of 1095 Old 11-19-2005, 05:40 PM
 
nmm2112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi - I just found this thread and haven't yet read through all 17pages of replies but it sure looks interesting.

I read the CC as part of a book club that my local AP group was doing.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet here but we were all kind of interested in Leidloff's actually age/experiences when she wrote the book. You know how actually being a mom changes your actions sooo much - we all thought we'd do certain things one way and then, when we became mothers our actions/thoughts on the issues often change.
Just a thought....
ideas? (did I miss this earlier in the thread,.... I'm off to go read,...)
nmm2112 is offline  
#327 of 1095 Old 11-19-2005, 06:30 PM
 
Ellien C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: in the middle ages
Posts: 5,496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We didn't do much child-proofing at all. The gates, came before CC, but no outlet covers, no cabinet locks, and toilet locks and my chemicals and cleaning supplies never did move to an upper cabinet. BUT - I had a relatively easy kid and she was in day care most days. It's not like I was home with her. When she went to the china cabinet for example, I just took the dishes out and showed her them. And then we put them away and it was fine. I was so shocked when the neigbor toddler was going for my cupboards. My DD just didn't do that. My point here is that kids are SO different. I might have felt the need to do more babyproofing if I was home or if she showed more interest, had a different temprament. The toothpaste is out - everything. She just never got that into stuff. She also never ran into the street or away from my car. Yeah - I'd like to think that's because of my positive expectations and great CC environment I created. But it ABSOLUTELY is not. I think I lot of it has to do with temprament.

I am also the mother of a 2 yo who, slept last night from 10-6 am and had no fewer than 8 meltdown screaming fits this morning before we left for the b-day party at 10:15! I lost count. It was awful. I think that's just how it goes. I don't beat myself up about it and that's where it's good to have a dose of fine mainstream neighbors who are going through the EXACT same thing. I know Liedloff said she never saw these things, but truthfully we don't know all that much about the Yequana. She wasn't a trained anthropologist and our living circumstances are just SO different than theirs. Pat had a good post about not setting yourself up to expect perfection. We simply don't have that tribe. We are trying to be all things to our kids (even mine, in day care 40+ hours a week). It's perfectly normal for 2-3 yo to have screaming tantrum-y fits. Maybe the Yequana didn't, but mine sure does and I can't beat myself up about it.

Third generation WOHM. I work by choice.
Ellien C is offline  
#328 of 1095 Old 11-19-2005, 07:58 PM
 
WuWei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the moment
Posts: 11,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I do want to add that I am more of an advocate of suiting the environment to our children's needs than expecting that they will adapt to an unnatural environment from which they have no recourse. So, having "emotional outbursts" preceding going to a birthday party, to me indicates that the environmental demands were beyond the child's ability to cope with either the expectations or the environment. When that environment is organic such as the CC tribe, that is a totally different realm than one artificially or arbitrarilly imposed on a child without the child having a means of dissent.

For instance, I consider our home the organic environment from which our child does not have to leave unless he chooses to "follow me". And I do consider my own expectation not to leave him without adequate care my responsibility to provide, such as I did not birth into the natural order of an extended support system which doesn't exist in our home/community. Because I chose to birth into a nuclear family unit ("indigenous" to our culture), but chose also to *adopt* a CCish parenting/living practice (which does exist with an indigenous extended community of caregivers), I am accountable to not obstuct or remove the same non-imposed, non-directed freedoms that the CC children experience, imo. By insisting or expecting that our son will come with me against his will seems in opposition to the practices of the CC tribe from my perspective.

In order to provide an equivalent choice of the CC children, for our son to "follow me" or not, I believe that our son either has the option to refuse leaving his 'organic home' environment; or I work to find a mutually agreeable alternative that meets both my need for him to have adequate caregiving and his 'organic home' type environmental expectations. This effort on my part to replicate the choice that the CC children had, decreases the artificial and arbitrarily imposed environments to which children are generally objecting when they are "having a tantrum". This follows that imposing 'dressing to go out', 'hurry we have to be somewhere', 'having to get in the carseat', when our son doesn't want to follow causes the emotional distress in ways that the CC children were not subjected.

Therefore, our son has the option not to leave his organic home environment or we find a mutually agreeable solution. The same facilitation of choice occurs when he doesn't want to be somewhere, he has the option of going home with support. We work to find a mutually agreeable solution to that also.

Just wanted to add my $0.02

Pat

I have a blog.
WuWei is offline  
#329 of 1095 Old 11-20-2005, 10:19 AM
 
pjlioness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Far NW Chicago Suburb
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmm2112
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet here but we were all kind of interested in Leidloff's actually age/experiences when she wrote the book. You know how actually being a mom changes your actions sooo much - we all thought we'd do certain things one way and then, when we became mothers our actions/thoughts on the issues often change.
JL was college-age when she first met the Yequana. She went back a few more times over several years. She has never married and has no children of her own.

IMO, her lack of qualifications [no related degree(s) and no children of her own] are not of much concern. In fact, I think one's college degrees can sometimes get in the way of unbiased observation/research. Just consider modern medicine!

In this culture (increasingly over the last hundred or so years) we have developed a programed tendency to believe that only someone trained (with a degree or sometimes sufficient life experience) in a subject can know what they are talking about. I believe this is harmful, and we need people to look at our world with fresh eyes, because they'll see things that the rest of us have missed.
pjlioness is offline  
#330 of 1095 Old 11-20-2005, 10:29 AM
 
pjlioness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Far NW Chicago Suburb
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
scubamama,



Wow!

Now that's what I call a complete paradigm shift.

I keep forgetting that my agenda isn't necessarily my kids', especially when we have "somewhere to be".

Could you take us through a couple of examples (one where he accompanied you and one where he didn't)? I'd like to learn from your approach.
pjlioness is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off