My kid got kicked out of the zoo for a shirt ! - Page 13 - Mothering Forums

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#361 of 374 Old 06-30-2004, 10:17 PM
 
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Why would there be a warning about this post being closed if people continue to exercise their FREE SPEECH in terms of questioning the OP? I didn't see a single offensive comment, just some pretty polite questions of validity. I know the answer in principle but I am just asking because the irony is hard to ignore...the whole question here was one of free speech, the people who are defending the OP have done so on the principles of free speech, so perhaps Piglet unintentionally made the point that many others have tried to make-- in every forum in life there ARE limits of what's acceptable and when you don't know what they are, sometimes someone has the thankless task of letting you know. Shann wasn't asked to leave for breastfeeding or a Budweiser T shirt. Let's not make equations that DID NOT HAPPEN.

Piglet, going by Shann's logic from her original post, I guess this makes you a rent-a-cop too because you are tasked with maintaining Mothering's standards of acceptable discourse or shutting us down... (that rent-a-cop comment probably bothered me as much as the shirt in the OP) :

If it's ok to close this thread because of offensive posts (a policy I agree with) then what is the problem with what the zoo did?
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#362 of 374 Old 06-30-2004, 10:57 PM
 
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First I apologize because I have not read the entire thread and may repeat what's been said. Yes we do have rights and freedoms, but with rights come responsibilty. We may have the right to wear a shirt with explicit pornography or perhaps a graphic murder scene. Yet don't we also have a responsibilty to the community in which we belong? For me personally such graphic shirts go far beyond acceptible for public display. Yet there may be some folk out there the say "why not?" I'm not a lawyer I can't argue the legality of the incident. I do believe as previously posted the option to turn the shirt inside out, a refund or rain check should have been offered. However, I feel that sometimes we are so caught up in the "I's and ME's " that we forget we belong to a community. I know we have Freedom of Speech in the UNITED States, but when we get so carried away with what we want its as though it should be the I STATES
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#363 of 374 Old 06-30-2004, 11:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frand
Why would there be a warning about this post being closed if people continue to exercise their FREE SPEECH in terms of questioning the OP? I didn't see a single offensive comment, just some pretty polite questions of validity. I know the answer in principle but I am just asking because the irony is hard to ignore...the whole question here was one of free speech, the people who are defending the OP have done so on the principles of free speech, so perhaps Piglet unintentionally made the point that many others have tried to make-- in every forum in life there ARE limits of what's acceptable and when you don't know what they are, sometimes someone has the thankless task of letting you know. Shann wasn't asked to leave for breastfeeding or a Budweiser T shirt. Let's not make equations that DID NOT HAPPEN.

Piglet, going by Shann's logic from her original post, I guess this makes you a rent-a-cop too because you are tasked with maintaining Mothering's standards of acceptable discourse or shutting us down... (that rent-a-cop comment probably bothered me as much as the shirt in the OP) :

If it's ok to close this thread because of offensive posts (a policy I agree with) then what is the problem with what the zoo did?
WOW! good point!!!
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#364 of 374 Old 06-30-2004, 11:51 PM
 
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You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but in this case the law does not back you up. A business is absolutely allowed to create their own rules (as long as they are not discriminating against federally protected classes of people solely on the basis of the characteristic that is federally protected). Just because a business is open to the public does not make it a public place. It is still a private establishment. And yes, a private establishment can pick and choose when and how they will enforce their rules, regardless of whether they are posted or not. As long as they are not discriminating against those federally protected classes or creating rules that are intended to discriminate against just one person (such as "Seven-year-olds named Stephen may not wear shirts with swear words on them, but all other seven-year-olds can"), proprietors of a private establishment can ask any patron to leave at any time and for any reason.
THANK YOU!!! I haven't checked back in on this thread for awhile, and am amazed that people are still debating the issue of free speech. I'm shocked that some people still think that their 'right to free speech' means they can say anything anywhere. I personally don't care what shirt another kid wears, but it is not protected under any free speech laws when you are on private property, i.e., property owned by a private entity. And even if you are on government property, they are still allowed to have guidelines about appropriate behavior. This does not fall under protection of free speech as defined in the constitution.

It seems that our highschool civics/government/history classes have not done a very good job at educating the U.S. public about the constitution and what it really means.
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#365 of 374 Old 07-01-2004, 12:01 AM
 
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I have a question for the OP - and I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious and looking for clarification. (I've read most but not all of the posts and I apologize if you've answered this already). Shann - did you think, when you went out in public with your son wearing that shirt, that some people would be offended by it?
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#366 of 374 Old 07-01-2004, 01:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sbf
Actually, the humor is based on the assumption that Asian proverbs are generally profound and insightful, and yet it turns out to be an American pop culture phrase. So it's actually a compliment, if you think about it. So I'm not really surprised that Shann's Asian friends are not offended by it.
nak

people around here (in Cleveland) are surprised Native Americans are offended by the logo of 'chief wahoo', as the name and logo were changed many years ago to 'honor' a Native American player. it doesnt matter what its based on. it failed miserably in its compliment.

its a stretch, and off topic, but so is this whole thread
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#367 of 374 Old 07-01-2004, 03:17 PM
 
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Well, Frand, one difference is that, in order to register here, one must read and agree to the terms of the User Agreement. So at least, in this case, nobody can argue that they weren't warned before they "bought their ticket".

Plus, I think that this is a good example of the "responsibilities" part of the "right to free speech" issue that has been brought up by many on this thread. Yes, you are free to speak your mind, but if people do so in a way that is hurtful to others, that just isn't cool. Rights or no rights.

I honestly believe that every point can be worded differently, so that even an "offensive" post can be "fixed" with the right use of wording and tact. There are ways of getting a point across without being hurtful. Thus, people should not feel restricted here in WHAT they say, it's HOW they say it that matters....

.....in theory.

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#368 of 374 Old 07-01-2004, 04:45 PM
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I think Frand has a point, Piglet.

I regard the folk here at Mothering to be an openminded and diverse lot yet we are all perfectly willing to dialogue and conduct ourselves within the confines of DECENCY.

Not a novel concept the alternative is anarchy.

I prefer the assumption of a decent and respectful environment.

Here at Mothering and in a public venue such as the zoo.

Debra Baker
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#369 of 374 Old 07-01-2004, 04:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Heavenly
Regarding cursing - people are taking offense on it being called ignorant. You can choose to use it and view it however you want but you have to realize that there are many people (myself included) who will hear you use it and think you are ignorant, uneducated and trashy. Personally if I am out in public and I hear someone so "Oh fuck this shit" I would immediately think 1) they are trashy, 2) they are uneducated and 3) they are low class.

as someone who is uneducated (well, i have a GED ) trashy, and 'low class' (thats like lower class, like low income, right?) I take offense to being lumped along with people who use the "F" word (which i do not, as i already have enough going against me)





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#370 of 374 Old 07-01-2004, 05:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sbf
The ONLY comparison I made between wearing a profane shirt and breastfeeding is that there are people who are offended by both. Can anyone really dispute that?

I'm concerned about the precedent it sets when a place of public accomodation is allowed to ban something based on the fact that it offends people.

Incidentally, I'm not saying that I would wear the shirt myself, it just seems like some people are over-reacting to it a bit.

Also, I wish there were more concern about censorship.
i totally get you on this.
about the breastfeeding, everything. if the shirt just had 'fuck this shit' on it, whatever. i dont care. free speech. but because of the cultural connection. I would never wear it. BUT i wouldnt walk up to someone, EVEN a family member, and call them on it. just like baseball logos and such, i dont bother. its too obscure for them to 'get' without me looking like a nut and ruining my credibility for things that really matter.
but because it was brought up, in this thread, about the shirt and the problem with it, the cultural implications are also being brought up......so while it may be over reacting, its understandable considering all the turns this thread has taken.

for the record, i think shan shoudda got her cash back.

oh, and by the way, i also agree with whoever said on page 1 or 2 that the zoo itself is a crappy example of a family environment. being so inhumane and commercial (well, our local zoo is, with gift shops every hundred feet and a McDonalds and Pizza Hut) we partake, but know full well that it doesnt promote any 'family values' i would want to instill.
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#371 of 374 Old 07-01-2004, 05:56 PM
 
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okay, my sister asked what I have been reading while my sweaty, drooly kid is asleep and still nursing for the last hour...I told her the OP issue, and she asked 'why is that the kids favorite shirt?'

I hope thats not a personal attack or anything. does he like the style of writing? does he like that when he first got it, it made mom and dad laugh or their eyes get wide?
now, we are pretty offensive to most people (and I mean without blatantly trying, like wearing shirts with potty humor on them) and laid back to an extent...it really seems like someone is trying really hard to be shocking, and to all of us who are naturally shocking, its sorta a poser thing to do. :LOL

okay, I am done. I have read through to the end! took 3 days off and on.
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#372 of 374 Old 07-02-2004, 01:38 PM
 
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Shann,
TCS= Taking Children Seriously
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/
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#373 of 374 Old 07-02-2004, 03:06 PM
 
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*temporarily removed by moderator*
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#374 of 374 Old 07-03-2004, 11:18 AM
 
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Well I'm late in the game but I think it is a catch-22. It is just as much the zoo's right to throw you out as it is a right for your son to wear the shirt. People in America can do what they want, basically. It's just a catch-22 overall and that's why it's such an argument and hard to figure out because both you AND the zoo are right in your decisions.
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