Why shouldn't AP be about rules? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 01:47 AM
 
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Is Juniperjoy going to kick me out of the AP clubhouse?? *bites nails*

Wow, one more person who doesn't approve of my parenting. What a shock. Fortunately I have had a lot of practice in not caring what other people think about my choices.
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#92 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 01:57 AM
 
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You know....Dr. Sears said these SAME things...only he was a lot more gentle at saying things. And even HE, who coined the term 'attachment parenting', understood that everyone has different circumstances. There is a right way and a wrong way to educate...telling people that it's all or nothing is going to do nothing but make people loose trust in you and ignore you. AP isn't "all or nothing"...some women have to work and so their babies take bottles. Some can't use carriers. Some can't co-sleep. There are situations that warrant this. I agree that there are some ideals...but that's what they are. Dr. Sears never said that the 5 b's were RULES...he said they were IDEALS. It's great to aspire to those ideals, but sometimes they are not possible.

To me, it's better to show your kids how to love others by being a good example. Preaching the rules and judging people and telling them they don't belong in your exclusive "AP" club is not showing love and respect. Be an example of GENTLE teaching. You wouldn't dare speak to your children the way you are speaking to some of these ladies.

~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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#93 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 01:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperJoy
Oh, everyone's got an excuse, don't they?

Some of them are valid. Most of them are not.

The trouble with all the invalid excuses is that everytime you give one, you've just given someone else one more excuse to add to their repetoire.

When I talk to mothers (and I'm a specialist in mother-child ESL classes) in other parts of the world, they think these excuses are hilarious.

Go to India, China, Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, East Africa, Bolivia, Paraguay - you will see baby after baby after baby sleeping in someone's arms, nursing, and generally being happy, normal babies.

In all my travels, the only groups of people who even knew what colic was were the Westerners. UK, Australia, Canada and America - these cultures have babies that hate to be held, cry inconsolably, wean themselves spontaenously, love daycare from birth, prefer to be held in plastic contraptions, do all kinds of happily convenient things for the parents.

If they are valid excuses, they would be universal - something that HUMAN babies do.

But they're not universal. They're cultural. And culture is nothing but a set of rules.

So change the rules.

And stop making excuses.

And you must be seriously kidding if you think North Americans aren't fat and lazy. Obese and sedentary, if you like your truth sugar-coated.

Sugar's not good for you, though. Take it straight.
I suggest you read Mothernature a book that inculdes a discussion of what REALLY happens in all those lovely other cultures when there is a child that doesn't quite fit in with the culture of holding and co-sleeping. Let's just say its NOT pretty. And CHINA are you even kidding? They are abandoning or KILLING their little baby girls. YEAH they are a wonderful example.
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#94 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 01:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maya43
I suggest you read Mothernature a book that inculdes a discussion of what REALLY happens in all those lovely other cultures when there is a child that doesn't quite fit in with the culture of holding and co-sleeping. Let's just say its NOT pretty. And CHINA are you even kidding? They are abandoning or KILLING their little baby girls. YEAH they are a wonderful example.
LOL...I was wondering about the China example too....nothing gentle about that...

~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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#95 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 01:59 AM
 
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This thread is a perfect example of why MDC has a reputation in the real world as a coven of _________ (you fill in the blank). All the women in my LLL group know about this site, but I'm the only one who posts, because they know that as soon as they say something the slightest bit controversial, all the honey-mouthed dragons are going to unsheathe their claws.

But I'll keep posting, because I know for a fact there are a ton of people who feel the same way I do, and who like to see their own thoughts supported in a forum like this. They would just never post here, thanks to the inspiring level of maturity and hypocrisy demonstrated.
Pot, meet Kettle.

Um, what was the point of this thread anyway? "Why *shouldn't* AP be about rules"? I think you have the answer.
I always believed that AP style recognizes the varieties of ways of doing things right for your children and family, recognizes the varieties of families, acknowledges that parents, and not outside entities (like nosey neighbors or "authorities") are the parenting experts. And so by nature, Attachment parenting style is about making the right choices for your family and your children, taking into consideration the personalities, experiences, needs, etc. of each member of the family. It's a wholisitic way of family living. You can't slap absolute rules on a wholisitc system.

Quote:
Nobody ever feels guilty about doing the right thing. If you feel guilty about how you're taking care of your baby, that's a sure sign you're doing something wrong. Listen to your own heart. It tells you when you're making a mistake
--the OP's sig line

Excellent advice, OP. Advice that can't be squeezed into a box of rules.

People who try to put other people down are generally working through personal issues, so this is not meant to be a flame or an attack, Joy. I'm just hearing lots of hurt in your posts. If you're hurting because of something that we don't know about, leave it at that. We don't know about it. Focus your anger and hurt on the cause, not on those of us who come here for support and encouragement because we don't always feel like the parenting experts in our families, whose choices are only validated by the positive results we see in our families (and sometimes not even then), and even when we have to let go of our ideals of perfect parenting in order to be attached parents. So stop lashing out, Joy, we all have a lot in common, stand by your ideals, and may you not be too traumatized if *you* have to let go of them.
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#96 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 02:01 AM
 
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Juniper you aren't reading these posts. You aren't even reading the posts you choose to quote.

Your version of "third world" mothering is a western fantasy of "natural" and is as xenophobic and racist as other more negative but equally simplistic depictictions; the countries you mention are as complcated and as founded on cultural norms as the west.

I was about to write that this thread is a little like kicking a baby (forgive the figure of speech), but you last post makes me think it is more like kicking the troll baby.

This board annoys me sometimes too because it is too uptight about things (swearing, hoochie clothes etc) and a little too eager to protect kids from the world we live in, but it is a "good" place, and by that I mean a place where mamas really try to help other mamas. We discuss and disagree and sometimes get a little snotty, but I've never been afraid to post my opinion. That every poster in this thread disagrees with you (after your third or so post) might tell you that you need to reconsider your pov. I did so as I read the swearing thread and saw my pov outnumbered so (I changed my take on it slightly). Reconsideration is not a bad thing.
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#97 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 02:09 AM
 
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I guess I'm practicing attachment parenting all wrong then, 'cause I just thought it was about taking cues from my baby and parenting to match those cues. So, when she couldn't latch and would get so frustrated at even trying that she'd just cry herself into a little baby ball of misery, I sorta just took that as a cue that nursing might not be the best option for us. I kinda decided I liked having a happy, lovingly bottle-fed baby rather than a constantly miserable child who hated to be close to her Mom for fear she'd have to start nursing.

What a crappy mom I must be. I'm sure if you saw my healthy, joyful little girl, you'd probably agree that I'm doing it ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL wrong.

Oh, and maybe here's a cue you're missing, since you seem to be all about knowing what AP is...if you post a thread and virtually EVERYONE disagrees with what you're saying, maybe you're the one who's wrong, not everyone else.
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#98 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 03:08 AM
 
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#99 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 03:16 AM
 
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Quote:
But...the purpose of AP is to create secure children.
Boy, I didn't know what to expect when I finally opened up this thread, but wow, : I think you nailed it.

And, you know, wow. Amazing we keep having these threads, discussions, rehashings, etc. Why do people feel the need to judge and measure.

And,
Quote:
And you must be seriously kidding if you think North Americans aren't fat and lazy. Obese and sedentary, if you like your truth sugar-coated.
Um...I'm not. Are you? Maybe if you tried to fit some exercise into your life, you may feel better. Or, just learn to accept yourself as you are. Might take some of the stress out.
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#100 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 03:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperJoy
all the honey-mouthed dragons are going to unsheathe their claws.
That is actually a really great image.

Imagine a circle of dragons, thier mouths dripping with honey, slowely taking the leather sheathes off thier claws one at a time.


We definately need a honey mouthed dragon emoticon or better yet an emoticon for epople who refuse to read what others actually post
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#101 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 03:33 AM
 
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Rule#1 – NO CIO
Rule#2 – Breastfeed
RULE #3 – Baby bonds with a primary caregiver
RULE #4 – Wear your baby
RULE #5 – Cosleep

[/QUOTE]


I don't think any of those rules are even relevant any more in my family. I mean we're not going to be bf'ing or wearing a 9 year old and I couldn't get my DD to co-sleep even when I begged her post surgery. And THANK GOD she's bonded with many, many wonderful people.

So what are your rules after the first five years??? Believe me once you got big kids you got a lot more complex life than this.
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#102 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 03:35 AM
 
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Ah, this thread gets better and better.

Mamas, don't take what JJ says personally. She obviously has a lot of pent up anger to deal with, and I reckon it really has nothing to do with how other people parent.
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#103 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 03:37 AM
 
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Well said

I think I'm cynical b/c I've started reading inflammatory posts w/a grain of salt.
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#104 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 04:07 AM
 
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A valedictorian gives a speech at her graduation...here's what she says...."I'd like to thank my mother for the way she raised me...it was truly attachment parenting..she respected me as a person from the time I was a baby...responded to my needs...hugged and kissed me...listened when I talked..and played with me...oh wait..she didn't use a co-sleeper...nevermind...someone else can take my place..I am traumatized."
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#105 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 04:09 AM
 
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ya know.

Really.

The OP, has her opinion. She has a right to it.

Let's move on people.

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#106 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 04:14 AM
 
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Gotta wonder why I love this thread so much (images of honey mouthed dragons aside).

I wonder of Juniper has become our whipping boy. We make her the fall guy for all the guilt we feel for judging mamas, for the lists of "rules" we cary in our own head, for our self-rightousness and smug complacency. We know it is wrong, but it is so hard not to do it; so instead of owning up to it and self-flogging admidst the required mea cupas, we make her do it for us. We abject our sins onto her, suffer her a thousand tounge lashings, and thus pretend that her vocal sins are not our silent ones. Is there a difference between thinking it and knowing you are wrong to think it and saying it and thinking you are right to say it?

For this goat-girl Juniper needs a medal, or at leaat a big scarlet J.
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#107 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 04:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperJoy
Comments like this are just so sickeningly racist and xenophobic.
...
Yes, your comments were racist and xenophobic. I'm glad to see you are coming to terms with that, it takes a big person to admit they were wrong.

Casting entire cultures of women as nothing more than happy, AP-rule following mothers is patentely ridiculous, not to mention being racist. Women all around the world lead lives just as complex as ours. Claiming anything else is absurd.

Now I hope you'll tackle your misogyny.

Good luck.
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#108 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 04:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamawanabe
...Is there a difference between thinking it and knowing you are wrong to think it and
saying it and thinking you are right to say it?...
There's a world of difference between thinking a judgemental thought about another mother, realizing it is wrong and trying to change your thinking vs. thinking a judgemental thought and defending it to the death.
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#109 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I judge you so you judge me back for judging you so I judge you back for judging me for judging you so you judge me back again for judging you for judging me ....

Who knows how to say hypocrite?

And isn't it just too funny that y'all can jump over me for being sob - harsh and mean - sob - gosh you would never say anything like that to a child - (does that mean you're a child?) while you post your own bile and venom?

Who is that has anger issues?

Gee, not the oh so sweet and supportive mothering dot commers. Not you, no way.

Seriously, do you have any idea how many women you alienate with your nasty ways? Think about it.

You can't alienate me, because I'm already an alien.
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#110 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 04:41 AM
 
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JJ, I just wanted to remind you that I am a mother. I come to MDC because I want to meet other parents (I live overseas) and because sometimes I need some advice about my child. I respect the posters here and I contribute as thoughtfully as I can when I post. It makes me angry that I took time to engage in your post and you are not reading what I have to say and because it seems obvious that you want to argue about lots of other issues. I just wish you would show that you respect me (until I prove otherwise) when I post.

And, just so you know, this is from a mother with no excuses about your short list and much, much more. I’ve also travel quite a bit ~ I’m trying to figure out what’s important to you and what you’re about. It sounds like you’re doing really interesting things with your life and I think you would offer a unique perspective to MDC. So, what’s up? What’s going on in your life? Is there something that you want to discuss – get out – work through? I’m not being sarcastic. I just had this experience a while ago where all kinds of things were coming up for me in my posts and it was because I had some “issues” to work out. It happened for me that some posters at MDC helped me by calling me out on my “stuff”.

Now, got to run – I have some posts on MDC that actually seemed productive and I want to give my time to those.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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#111 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 04:52 AM
 
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Ahhh JUNIPER, I just read your past posts. You did say something controversal once (and I backed you up BTW; safty is another thing I think this board is a little uptight about). Are you still upset about that? The claws did come out that time, but several mamas supported you, especially toward the end of the thread when people start talking about freedoms and laws.

You've had such insightful posts on here (the one about you MIL and consistancy is one of the smartest things I've read on mothering - incredibly tolerant and gentle, like nothing you've posted in this thread). I'd hate for your posts from hereafter to be so willfully combatative.

Look threads get otta hand sometimes. I've a left baord (mamatron) because I got my feeling hurt in a thread, and that was just silly cause nobody would have remembered except me. And 9 times out of 10 we can't associate usernnames with past posts anyway (they all met together - mama2bean, londonmama, cuddlylovinmama . . .), so not only would no one have remembered the thread, no one would have remembered taht it was me being sulky in the thread.

I promise you if you lay down the weapon and walk away from this poisonous thread and from your own embittered conceptions about honey mouthed dragons on this board, mothering can be a happy home for you again.
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#112 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 05:04 AM
 
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Did I miss a thread about US safety? Man – I always miss the good stuff, which I’m actually interested in! If there was some thread about the overblown safety concerns of “mainstream” US parents, I’d have been right there with you! But, I was busy this month actually meeting some of these honey mouthed dragons IRL!

Good call, mamawanabe! Could we find some common ground?

Personally, I’d love to discuss how similar some European, North American and Australian values are – seems to me that SO many people seem to idealize some of these places and view them as so far superior to another. In fact, my experience is that they are really very similar.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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#113 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 05:07 AM
 
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Oh, BTW, where are you two ~ up at this hour?

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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#114 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 05:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama
Oh, BTW, where are you two ~ up at this hour?

insomnia brought on by not writing my dissertation cause I'm posting too many snotty posts in this thread :

I am about to take a sleeping pill.

There is too much idealization in mothering period. It is part of what keeps women down (cause we are too guilty about what bad mamas we are to find the emotional energy to fight for political and social and economic access.)

Where is our feminist marching emoticon??

Can you tell it is 3 am here
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#115 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 05:41 AM
 
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Damn. I lost my post.

Anyway, we get this crap from our pediatricians, our mother-in-laws, and our nosy neighbors. Everyone has their own set of RULES that we are all breaking in one way or another. It is just ridiculous, and I honestly don't see the point of posting your own set of rules that everyone should follow in order to be "AP" and if they don't, then they are just making "excuses" because your way is the one true way. I've read things you have posted in other threads that go against the very things you are preaching here. I seriously wonder if you are just posting this to get a rise and if you don't even really believe it.

Have you ever given your children bottles? Even with EBM that goes against the "rules" of many women here. Why did you give them? Don't answer that. They are just meaningless excuses. I can guarantee you that you have engaged in practices with your children that many women here would say that there is no excuse for.

I admire any parent who does any of those things to any degree. The society we live in is not very supportive of parents who choose to follow their instincts and actually listen to what their children are telling them before they even learn to talk. Now we have you, and I don't doubt that you are the only one who feels this way, refusing to support any woman who does anything less than what you consider the ONLY way to raise children. C'mon. Babies left in cribs behind bars DIE? That is what they say to scare us out of co-sleeping, that we will suffocate our children.

I guess I don't understand your point. Is it just to assert your superiority over other mothers here?

And pugmadmama is right. Your romaticising of "primitive" cultures is racist and offensive.

Unless you can stand here and tell us all that you are the perfect parent and you have everything figured out, well, what the hell are you doing? What is your point?
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#116 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 09:16 AM
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OK, I had a big response to Juniper all written out in my head. It was sarcastic and outraged.

But after reading some more posts, particularly Darshani's, I've changed my mind.

You see, I know my story is all over MDC. It is my sanctuary and support. I've leaned on it heavily in the last 8 months. I feel like I have friends here.

I also know the struggles that other women have gone through here. They've been brave enough to share their lives with us. It has given me strength and hope.

There are some brilliant mamas here, creative, compassionate, funny, and human.

The only thing this thread is accomplishing is to hurt, tear down, belittle, and judge. I'm done. to all the wonderful mamas hurt by this nasty thread. You do not need to justify your actions here.


Bec

Mama to: Katie, Emily , and Abby
Not perfect, Just amazing!
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#117 of 117 Old 08-31-2004, 09:24 AM
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Sorry folks. Disagreement is one thing but personal attacks and general community-directed negativity and insult is crossing way over the line.

While we enjoy and benefit from friendly debate it is clear that the OP has no friendly intentions nor good will toward this community so there is no point in continuing this discussion here. Bashing of our community by others, whether they be LLL members or other offline or online communities outside this forum, is beyond our control but we certainly need not accommodate it here.

Thread closed. Go sheathe your claws and replenish the honeypot mamas.

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