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#91 of 105 Old 04-18-2005, 02:23 PM
 
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I thought about my comments all day yesterday. I typed off right before I rain off to work, it was haste. I did think all day what I type did not say what I meant. So forgive me on that. I am not stupid I know domestic violence reach a cross all social economic factors but why? What causes all these men to do this? Do you honestly think it just because of the Patriarchal system we have? A violent person is a violent person.

I do think we need to care about violent men because their violent acts are killing our children’s fathers, brothers, sisters, and mothers. Their actions do affect us. I am going to take it you never held onto your friend after their child, son was shot. Have you ever gone to a friend’s brother’s funeral from from murder? You never held her daughter or a friend because she was slicing her arms up due to the violence around her. They might not have ever been physically hurt by the violence but their hearts bleed deeply. In my junior and senior year I went to 7 funerals for male class mates. I saw all to well how these boys death affected women and myself.

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Originally Posted by the sunshine
Yes, I agree with you here. As I mentioned earlier, do you see how, with very limited resources, women had to evaluate what hurt them the most and concentrate on that? I have to add that if men think they are so victimized, they need to step up to the plate and do something as well. It's not fair to expect women to do it for them.
The problem is men that are victimized cannot speak up. Several things happen:

1. Men label them less than worthy, gays, whiners, momma’s boys, et
2. Women label him as a wimp or whiner, or they will say something like “Well so what? Look what women have to go through. Grow up. Deal with it.” Criticized unrepentantly as being heartless and uncaring. This totally devalues them and their feelings.

It is not only men calling men sissy’s but women. If you go into a high school the guy that is less likely to have a girl friend is the “wimp, geek, cry baby” This does not mean we need to ignore the injustices to girls in high school but acknowledge and deal with the injustices of boys that are hurt by not being the strongest/most physically popular. This means we need to step back and teach our daughters it is acceptable for guys to be this way. Guys that deal with it and try to deal with their emotions with tears are outcasted by both sexes.
3. Many men don’t understand their own feelings or understand they are allowed to have those feelings! In another post on rape/sex abuse I mention male rape to plant ideas and to make people think. I did this because I recently had a discussion with a man that was raped (sodomized/molested depending on definitions) and he did not realize it was not his fault. It was not until he saw photos of the Iraq prisoners did he realize or learn that his erections and ejaculations did not mean that he really wanted it. He has spent many years questioning his sexuality and his feelings. He works with teens and it was never taught to him that a male erection and ejaculation does not equal enjoyment.

My dad was/is another example of a man that did not know or understand his feelings. Once he understood what he felt and were it came from did he change. (PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE this does not mean I think it was OK for him to be violent but an understanding to how to stop it in other people.) It also shows how male depression and other mental illnesses are often ignored or not diagnosed. (Health issues also. He was given viagra for prostate cancer).

Many men do not understand why and how isolated they feel and they have not been socialize any differently. They have grown to learn this is how men are, how they feel, and they are wrong for feeling or wanting anything different. You ask a father of a new born if he wishes he could stay home. Most will say yes, but they can’t because they have to work.

Look at how many men that do not know how they are harmed by circumcision? How many men won’t let anyone know that they feel violated and mutilated by it? They are and have been expected to deny the affects of circumcision. Told not to question the system or what it did to them. Look at the strugles and criticism of men that try to restore. How often they are told to get over it by their men and women? They get called and referred to psychs.

How can men step up for themselves when they are afraid to. They are afraid to be seen as “less” than. They are afraid they will be told to shut up and buck up once again. It is hard to admit something might be wrong with you. They are stuck in a system that is abusive to them the same restraints that hold/help women to a certain role holds men to another role.

How can I socialize my son, and all boys to help boys understand their feelings. How can I socialize my children to make it acceptable for boys to show emotions? I need to be careful not to accidentally raise my dds to think a boy that is less physically or financially superior is less and unworthy of their love (actually this goes for both genders). I need to make sure my girls and boy know that women don’t need “Protected” like the Patriarchal system has lead/set us to get accustom to. How they are raised will depend on how they turn out as men. How I raise my daughters will determined who they will choose as husbands what type of man(partners) to accept.

Once when my daughter was about two she was in a sand box with another girl and boy. My daughter hit this little girl and before I could get up and correct my child this other girls mom just laid into this little boy. This mom could not/would not phantom that another girl was mean to her girl. What message does that send to the little boy? What message did it send to the boy when he was not apologized to or emotionally validate? What happens to this boy when this happens year after year? What happens when these little boys get into the school setting and get put on Ritalin because their educational needs are not being met? We have made great strides in girls educations with science and math? But if you mention the fact that boys are behind in reading/language arts you get told so boys do better in science and math many women get stuck on only one part of the statisic? Many people never hear the other parts of the big picturs. If you mention boys drop out of school at higher rates, you get the same answer as so? More females than males plan college or further education, again you get response so, men make more money (totally ignoring most of the higher paying jobs are the worse and most deadliest jobs. I know someone before mention how many women are harassed off the jobs, but men are still socialized that then need to protect women. Kind of a paradox.) We have seen great strides with getting women and ethnic minorities on student governments but in high schools now girls are more involved in student government than boys. What does this unbalance lead to? Why are boys becoming so uninvolved and disengaged in their government and communities? Does this really benefit us all when they no longer care or don’t think they are worthy of them? How do we/society benifit when we hear the boys say why bother they (girls/women) won't listen? Why do they feel this way? I don't think my dds benifit from this nor my son.

My son has been made to feel that it was his fault over and over again. When he has wanted to run in the play ground and I sent him off to an area with no other children, he expected to stop if there is a girl that doesn’t like it. He is except to change his game to fit a girl. The girl cannot run as fast he has been asked to slow down for her. There are times I tell him change the game, because it is appropriate but there are times it is inappropriate for a game to change just because the girl is slower. We are talking about times when the boy/s were at least 3 years older and there are plenty other kids begging the girl to join in their game of tag. My girls have been told they play with boys too much because they are too rough. What message does that send 1. Boys are suppose to be rough. 2. That being rough is bad. I have been left a little dumbfounded when he has left the group to be by himself and have been warn that is anti-social behavior. My son has been told he was mean because he refuse to play with a girl instead of reading a book to himself. I was told he was beign sexist when he stopped reading allowed, never mind his motive was he didn't know this book if this book would be parent approved by her parent. I have had my son been the bad guy for defending his sister when the other little girls were being mean to her. I have had my friends whose sons were put in the same accusing position.

When he was in 1st grade and he had a crush on a little girl it was us that got a talking to more. He was not suppose to hold this girls’ hand. He was not suppose to be affectionate in anyway towards this girl. He was wrong for feeling this way. He was being over sexual. It didn’t matter that she willingly reciprocated. I remember one day this little girl got up in class and kissed my son. When I came to pick him up the teacher talked to me about it. She told me that my son could not be doing this. Then she looked shocked when I asked what he was doing? Sitting in his desk? I asked if she had talked to this girls mom, she said not yet. When I called this girls mom (because we did have an issue of not appropriate behavior not putting haloes on either kids head) The mom was never informed by the school. This happened over-and-over, this other mom only heard half of the story/situation. This girls mom was given the impression that my son was the aggressor. When reality was it was between both children and it was mutual (not all was appropriate behavior). It is hard to explain to your child why it is not ok to kiss a girl or just hold a girls hand but it is ok for two girls to hold hands. It is hard to explain why it is not socially acceptable for him to be friends with this little girl and it was the adults making it unacceptable. He got angry because he was always at fault in the situations. We he got talk to at school he said it was always him that got in trouble. The teacher would scold him and punish him more severly for the same crime (and I believe him because of what I saw personally).

How advance have we gotten when boys don’t want girls on their hockey team because if they fall on them they might touch them and get in trouble? On of our friend is a hockey coach, when they got girls on the team that was the response of the boys when they got question about isolating/ignoring the girls. These boys know the physical ness of this sport. They can fall on each other and they are afraid if they fall on a girl they will be accused of something sexual: in part because this had happen to one of the boys on another team, in part they are still socialize not to hurt girls. How advance are we if a woman is going up a ladder aboard ship is allowed to fall because the guys are afraid of getting accused of sexual harassment for grabbing her butt (same place they would grab a man in this situation)? Why hasn’t the necessary bonds not been made to make ship life functioning? How can we understand these issues if we don’t take time to learn or understand what the men are thinking and feeling when they are in these situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the sunshine
Who exactly set up this system? It wasn't women. If women couldn't even hold a job (!!!), or couldnt' get a job that would allow them to survive, of course they had to find a man to support them!
Have you ever stopped a moment and ever thought about or wonder if women ever benefited by this system? Have you ever thought about why it has lasted for so long? Yes, women paid a crappy price for this system but this system at one time did protect women. It was the men that went off to fight wars, be the slaves/indentured servants, take the physically deadly jobs that protected the women, children, and home. The necessity of this system has LONG been outdated, but a 1000-2000 years ago (or when ever it started) it did serve a purpose called survival and protection. It provide women protection from horrible deadly jobs. Was it ever right?? NO!! THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE SYSTEM RIGHT!!

This idea of women needing protection still comes up. Look at the military and all the lame reasons given why women shouldn’t be in boils down to people being socialize to think women need protection. Men are socialize to think that they need to protect women. We need to ask ourselves how are our men being socialized this what how are we (both genders) teaching these lessons. My dad has been in the military for 31 years. He will tell you that he doesn’t want a woman beside him because he feels obligated to protect her, his wife agree with him because if he is busy protecting a woman he might die. He fought my mom when she went in (mom is retired AF). My mom acknowledge this fact that men felt they needed to protect her, especially after she divorced my father. When I was in, I saw this happening. I saw women benefiting form this and yet being “held back” by this. This most startlingly example was what happened in the motor pool. Women got away with not moving heavy tools, they were protected from this hard work. Yet, they could not understand why the guys didn’t want them there. How their actions of getting the guys to do it also negatively effected them. These women also go very mad when a woman step up to the plate and did the job and “proved” herself (that a girl can do it). I had a traditionally male job. I did quite well at because I made sure I was not letting the guys protect me from part of my job.

Paying for dates: Women are now starting to have more money than men. Yet a guy still has to pay even if a women makes more money. When the tables are turn men still pay. Also, how often do you see a women even date a man lower than her status (or at least have potent ional to be at a higher status)? It is a rarity and people question the guy’s abilities. This sends the message to boys that they need to earn the $$$$ so they can provide these things. So they don’t choose lower paying jobs like teaching. And if they do, they end up in administrative because it pays more. It sends the message that women need to be protected and provided for.

My dh works with a young man (22ish) that is in college. He meet this girl at their job (restaurant) she wouldn’t have anything to do with him, but when she ran into him at Wash U. It was another story. He was not worthy on her attention when she precieved him as poor. Then he was a jerk for not giving her attention when she figured out he has great potential for future money. How does this behavior and expectations effect him later? Why is it shocking that he gets embittered and develops an attitude that women don’t truly care about him unless he is making money? This does not make it right for him to become violent but it is an understanding to how we get from point A to point B. It shows us how we need to change how we socialization our children (not just boys but girls). Why is it socially acceptable for a woman do be this way?

Also about male activism. When a man stands up and argues for equal rights he is called horrible things. He is force to spend more money on getting custody and enforced visitation. Statistic do not support your lady’s argument about men getting custody of children after divorce.

"Ninety percent of divorced fathers have less than full custody of their children." Jonathan M. Honeycutt, Ph.D.(c), M.P.A., M.A., I.P.C. Director of Research, Clinical & Consulting Psychotherapist, National Institute for Divorce Research, Panama City, Florida.

But to look at this situation properly you have to see that fathers are getting JOINT custody of their children and they are spending more money to gain this right.

When you dig into men organization sites and then verify information (which can be difficult at times) you find facts that men are being betrayed wrongly. You hear about how men abuse there kids however, 70 percent of confirmed cases of child abuse and 65 percent of parental murders of children are committed by mothers, not fathers, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. This is cross social economical factors. This is not only happening in homes were their is an abusive man. So when you make this a gender issue you make it a gender divide and it does not help the victims.

I have spent time digging reading into sites I don’t like, reading books I don't care for. Trying to understand the world I must send my children off into. I find myths and statistics that are poorly studied, studies that were not done at all, statistics that were oversimplified then these thoughts/ideas/assumptions became a status quo on how many people think and view the world. Any study that disagrees with a feminist view is often ignored or buried. It is hard to dig into the research to find out if they are valid or not.

If you dare say anything that disagrees with feminist you are criticized and attacked not listen to called a fool. I am trying to stand in the middle between the feminist and the people that would like to see the system completely stay the same (the political “right”). Two poles that actively manipulate the statistics and issues. I see that there are valid points and issue from both sides but we need to listen to the other side. We need to understand so we can help people overcome these feelings.

When society hangs on to one cause of domestic violence blaming completely on the Patriarchal system it totally ignores other issues that could prevent it like mental illness, drug abuse, and alcoholism. It completely ignores issues that statistically lesbian relationships are more violent than gay relationship (why is this? Why don’t you hear of studies that bring this information?) It completely ignores that women can be violent too. Many people give the excuse well a women was trying to protect herself but the studies I have seen this is not always the case. When asked being physically at danger does not always lead to women violence.

When we polarize issues as only male or only female we create a further the “battle of the sexes”.
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#92 of 105 Old 04-18-2005, 03:11 PM
 
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Hey, Marsupialmom,

No one has called you stupid or a fool, but you do have a tendency to misreport information and state facts that are just not accurate. Another example of that is your assertion in your most recent post that lesbian relationships are more violent than hetereosexual or gay relationships. That is absolutely not true, but many people find it hard to believe that the incidence of violence is the SAME whether you are in a gay or straight relationships, regardless of the gender of the parties involved.

I also want to tell you that when you start trotting out experiences you've had such as comforting those who have lost loved ones to violence or the like, you should keep in perspective that if it is an attempt to try to claim authority from them, I start to get agitated because you seem to presume that if only those who see it differently had these experiences, we would see the light. In domestic violence, we call this kind of argument d*ck (not deck, dock or duck btw) sizing, along the lines of "look what I can show you, from what I've seen." I am not really inclined to engage in the same sizing up-- but I can tell you after nearly 20 years of working with victims of domestic violence, with murderers in maximum security prisons and those accused of it outside of it, mine is definitely WAY bigger than yours.

I do think that what I have missed in what you are saying-- and what I think is your main point that should absolutely be acknowledged, is that women are affected deeply by violence that happens to the men in their lives and in our general culture, even if it doesn't physically impact them. You are so right about this, and you are also right that we should "care" about the violence that men suffer and more generally care about how our culture creates emotional pain for men.

Where I disagree with you is probably much less than I originally believed-- I do believe feminists should "care" about male violence against men, but when it comes time to putting resources and raising awareness about violence, there is so much work to be done directly with the female victims of male violence that anything broader can't possibly be accomplished without compromising resources to these oppressed groups. So while I think that feminists can (and do) acknowledge the impact of general violence in our culture, they/we cannot devote resources to addressing it when there are battered women's shelters that need funding, etc.

Lastly, I also want to point out that all the research on domestic violence cannot get a handle on why violence occurs. It is clear that the reasons for it are complex and multi dimensional, and different for different people. I personally think a more productive task is to focus on what has the best chance of stopping it-- in which case the clear answer is holding batterers accountable, through arrest and prosecution and conviction and sentencing, for their violence. And it also seems that many other social problems, from drug abuse to teenage pregnancy to school dropouts are linked to domestic violence. In my mind, if we end domestic violence we will see corresponding drops in other social problems.

Again, I'm sorry if you feel attacked or unduly criticized in this discussion-- but that can happen when people disagree.
Karla
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#93 of 105 Old 04-18-2005, 09:23 PM
 
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Hey, Marsupialmom,

No one has called you stupid or a fool, but you do have a tendency to misreport information and state facts that are just not accurate. Another example of that is your assertion in your most recent post that lesbian relationships are more violent than hetereosexual or gay relationships. That is absolutely not true, but many people find it hard to believe that the incidence of violence is the SAME whether you are in a gay or straight relationships, regardless of the gender of the parties involved.
Karla
Several points You have made are good. I am short on time. I did not say lesbian reltationships are more violent than heterosexual relationship. The statistics I have seen compared gay men to gay/lesibian women. I currently cannot find them becasue I keep on popping up porn sites. Later tonight/tomorrow I will try to find this information when I don't have little eyes around and spend more time on a responce.
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#94 of 105 Old 04-20-2005, 08:49 AM
 
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Unhealthy relationships can happen in any combination.

When it come to the rest, instead of going point by point, I'll just generalize my feelings...

There is a REASON why many are "suspicious" of men in general. It didn't just happen out of the blue. We could look at Ted Bundy and feel sorry for him, but it doesn't change the fact that he murdered lots of women. Excuses are just that, excuses. Much of Marsupialmom's posts sound like denial to me. My first insticts were right. I don't feel sorry for those poor, poor misunderstood abusive men. Not the ones abusing thier wives, not the ones running our country.

If our culture was matriarchal, do you think we'd be where we are today? I THINK NOT!

I agree that when it comes to our children, it is equaly important to empower our sons as it is our daughters, but when it comes to the Big Picture, it's not the men's rights I'll be busting my ass to fight for.
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#95 of 105 Old 04-20-2005, 07:31 PM
 
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Yes. It's bogus to assert that women, the oppressed sex still fighting for equality, should be giving energy to liberate men, who are still by-and-large fighting against feminism.

The patriarchy hurts men too, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's men who are in power in a patriarchy. Being in power gives them an, um, unique opportunity to change the framework of that power, and they need to use that opportunity instead of whining about how hard they have it.

I think there's 2 issues here: boys and adult men. I totally agree that how we raise our sons is a key part of the fight for gender equality. I totally agree that little boys just as much as little girls have the right to be mothered and fathered in a way that frees them from gender stereotypes.

But adult men are not little boys, and when they expect that women work to liberate them, they expect women to fulfil that mothering role they were deprived of as infants and children. It's sad that they didn't have it when they needed it, but it's inappropriate as adults to expect mothering from other adults. Does that make any sense?
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#96 of 105 Old 04-20-2005, 09:35 PM
 
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yes, that makes A LOT of sense, Kristin!


There are many factors that make men violent, abusive, and misogynistic, that are totally in men's control, and have their roots in patriarchal heirarchies and institutions, designed and maintained by men and for men. Like my mom's second physically abusive husband, was severely damaged by Vietnam, and had post traumatic stress disorder, He had many problems. My Mom played the all sacrificing mother role to him for 5 years, always trying to be there for him, always forgiving him, always trying to be helpful- and it didn't help him change, ... she lost five years of her life dealing with a lot of pain, and it was hard on me growing up too.... The problem was created by arrogant white men in power, who could care less about the masses of poor kids they send off to fight their immoral wars for their plans for power and control of resources, and then they could care less that those boys come home violent and screwed up husbands and fathers- why? because the women are there to deal with the mess, like always. Women in no way caused that bastard to be violent, men did.
Men need to be responsible for themselves, and if they would understand history and learn to listen to women and heal themselves, they would be partners in the struggles for humanity, for feminist struggles. They need to meet us half way, we shouldn't feel like we need to go the extra distance...

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#97 of 105 Old 04-21-2005, 12:26 AM
 
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But adult men are not little boys, and when they expect that women work to liberate them, they expect women to fulfil that mothering role they were deprived of as infants and children. It's sad that they didn't have it when they needed it, but it's inappropriate as adults to expect mothering from other adults. Does that make any sense?

I see what you're saying Kristin, and for the most part I agree. But I still hate to see ANY child not receive gentle, loving parenting regardless of his or her gender.

And it breaks my heart to see so many posters here who have never even MET supportive, feminist men. It's worse out there than I thought. I still blame the Republicans for the current environment. :LOL

secular classical-ish mama to an incredible 5 year old DS and an amazing 6 year old DD.
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#98 of 105 Old 04-21-2005, 02:13 AM
 
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I see what you're saying Kristin, and for the most part I agree. But I still hate to see ANY child not receive gentle, loving parenting regardless of his or her gender.

And it breaks my heart to see so many posters here who have never even MET supportive, feminist men. It's worse out there than I thought. I still blame the Republicans for the current environment. :LOL

I think we all agree that ALL children should have the love and care they need regardless of gender.
Adult men need to be held accountable for their actions.
I know many wonderful, supportive, feminist men ( married one), but unfortunately they are not the ones controlling our gov't, major corporations, mass media, etc.... so the circumstances we are living with have a lot of problems that have roots in patriarchy.....

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#99 of 105 Old 04-21-2005, 03:38 AM
 
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They need to meet us half way, we shouldn't feel like we need to go the extra distance.
Yes, exactly! That's what I was trying to describe, but you did it much more concisely.

It's bogus to expect women, who are fighting our own battles still, to go the extra distance for men instead of men working to liberate *themselves*. And it's even more bogus to take chunks out of feminism because it isn't doing the job of liberating men. That's like lumping your blender 'cause it doesn't make toast.

ETA: and don't even get me started on the dynamic I sometimes see of "mean old feminists, making men feel bad".
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#100 of 105 Old 04-21-2005, 08:24 AM
 
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And it breaks my heart to see so many posters here who have never even MET supportive, feminist men. It's worse out there than I thought. I still blame the Republicans for the current environment. :LOL
I know some really fabulous men too. I work at an vegetarian restaurant/feminist bookstore owned by radical feminists (from the good 'ol days). I've had the opportunity to meet some really fantastic men there. It is good to see.
I blame the Republicans too...
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#101 of 105 Old 04-21-2005, 09:27 AM
 
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I blame the Republicans for everything

Kristen - for me you nailed the whole "debate" down with this one thought....

"I think there's 2 issues here: boys and adult men. I totally agree that how we raise our sons is a key part of the fight for gender equality. I totally agree that little boys just as much as little girls have the right to be mothered and fathered in a way that frees them from gender stereotypes."

I wasn't getting that from many of the posts and that is what made me feel so alone on this thread - it just seems so central a concept to MDC and AP.

I absolutely am interested in promoiting equal rights for women but these days much of my day-to-day "work" is focused on raising and protecting my boys and I am struggling with how to deal with sexist comments about them. I partcipate in activist groups to focus on broader change but I come to MDC to talk about my kids and their issues.

BJ
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#102 of 105 Old 04-21-2005, 03:07 PM
 
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Men need to be responsible for themselves, and if they would understand history and learn to listen to women and heal themselves, they would be partners in the struggles for humanity, for feminist struggles. They need to meet us half way, we shouldn't feel like we need to go the extra distance...
So we should say to hell with them? To hell with my son, your son, everybody son? Until men speak up?

When they do speak up they are called misogamist. That is a wrong assumption. When a person speaks up about DV against men they are not saying they hate women and want to take money away from this issue. They just want the same safety against violence as women have and/or are gaining. Take time to stop and listen to people that have something that doesn’t agree with you, don‘t say they are in denial. You might find they have a point. If you read studies that are not solely reliant of who calls the police you will see that women hit, kick, scratch, et men as much also (I am willing to read and listen to arguments against these studies, especially if they are poorly done but I do not see women/feminist discrediting the this way. They just go it ignores women’s issue. Men just do not call the police. We do not rely solely on children’s calls to the police about the abuse they receive at the hand of adults. We do not rely solely on women’s calls to the police about rape or DV. But when a male group or social scientist comes out with a study they are discredited with out even looking at how the study and conclusion is came to.

I am not in denial about the atrocities caused by man. I am also not in denial about how women have benefited by this Patriarchal system. I don’t seem men as evil. They have created things trying to make women’s lives easier. They have gone off to wars to protect the lands that feeds women and children.

I am not in denial that women did not get out and vote against Shrub head. Men vote at higher rates, how is this man‘s fault we do have a right to vote. We (women) fought hard for a right to vote and so we could have responsibility in our government but WOMEN AREN’T taking this responsibility. Women need to take responsibility, they did not vote which is why these men are in power. Women are responsible when they vote for these men. Women need to stop saying men are voting for these guys so it is not our fault. Women need to take responsibility for the idiots they are allowing into office by not taking responsibility and voting. I do not have the statistics for this last election. I do have these statistics for Gore/Bush. (forgive me on this one but if the shrub wouldn’t have won the first election there would not have been a second).

Exactly half (50%) of women with children voted for Bush.

Well over half (56%) of women who make over $70,000 a year voted for Bush, as did women of the Protestant faith (53%).

Women under 34 were slightly more likely to vote Bush than Gore (49%-46%).

Women with children are more likely to vote Republican in a Congressional race than Democrat (48%-44%) as are women with household incomes over $70,000 (56%-39%), and women aged 34 and under (47%-43%).

Women are voting this way because they have something to gain or maintain by the system they are voting for. These men are getting into office not just by male votes, but by women’s votes, and women’s lack of voting.
So when we are complaining about the men in power we have to accept how they are getting there is not just because of men.

Also, women need to take responsibility for themselves. Quit expecting men to do the protecting and providing. Face up to the fact that 60% of all convicted child abuser are women. That an infant is more likely to die at their mother's hands (during the first year of life). Call me heartless, I don’t give a rats ass about what a man has done to that womenor what a society has set up she has no right to kill her child. This does not mean I don’t think there are many issues we need to address like depression and PPD but at the same time I acknowledge that men get depressed after birth. Then they are told they are wrong for feeling that way, for not being strong enough or sensitive enough to their wife. Maybe me men would/could be more sensitive if they are not trapped by depression. We all are better gained if we address this issues and give men a way to deal with them, not be critical of them or say it is not a womens issue because it not a womens body. It does effect her.

Women are not the only people that struggle? Our boys won’t struggle to get out of the system that has been created before then, but not by them? So our boys we are not going to help our boys emotionally deal so they can fight the system that is before them? As women we should not set the example that only women’s issues are worth fighting. We need to teach our children that every person has rights that need to be respected and fought for. If we show irreverence to men’s issues we are making it acceptable to make a person irrelevant. I really don’t want my children to think it is ok to any one is irrelevant for any reason gender, religion, race, or gender orientation. I personally want my kids to be taught to stand up for anyone, even if this person is someone they don't like.
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#103 of 105 Old 04-21-2005, 04:28 PM
 
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So we should say to hell with them? To hell with my son, your son, everybody son? Until men speak up?
Seems to me that EVERYONE so far has agreed that we want better for our sons, and that it is equally as important to focus on our sons as our daughters when it comes to sexism. That has come through in every post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
If you read studies that are not solely reliant of who calls the police you will see that women hit, kick, scratch, et men as much also ..... But when a male group or social scientist comes out with a study they are discredited with out even looking at how the study and conclusion is came to.
I started my last post as saying, yes...abusive relationships come in all shapes and forms, no doubt. For me, when it comes to studies, I can't quote many, because I think "studies" are bias. Even ones that agree with my point of view I won't quote, for the same reason. You could produce a "study" that will confirm any oppinion. I put no values in "studies". That's just me, I know many people swear by them for thier facts.

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Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
I am not in denial about the atrocities caused by man. I am also not in denial about how women have benefited by this Patriarchal system. I don’t seem men as evil. They have created things trying to make women’s lives easier. They have gone off to wars to protect the lands that feeds women and children.
How exactly have men made womens lives easier? How have we benefited by patriarchy?
I'm sure this will make me very unpopular, but ya know...it's MEN who wage war. I don't get all that choked up about them fighting them for us poor little 'ol women waiting at home.

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Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
I am not in denial that women did not get out and vote against Shrub head. Men vote at higher rates, how is this man‘s fault we do have a right to vote. We (women) fought hard for a right to vote and so we could have responsibility in our government but WOMEN AREN’T taking this responsibility. Women need to take responsibility, they did not vote which is why these men are in power. Women are responsible when they vote for these men. Women need to stop saying men are voting for these guys so it is not our fault. Women need to take responsibility for the idiots they are allowing into office by not taking responsibility and voting. I do not have the statistics for this last election. I do have these statistics for Gore/Bush. (forgive me on this one but if the shrub wouldn’t have won the first election there would not have been a second).
I couldn't agree with you more on this one!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
Also, women need to take responsibility for themselves. Quit expecting men to do the protecting and providing.
Believe me, I have never been protected or provided for by any man.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom
As women we should not set the example that only women’s issues are worth fighting. We need to teach our children that every person has rights that need to be respected and fought for. If we show irreverence to men’s issues we are making it acceptable to make a person irrelevant. I really don’t want my children to think it is ok to any one is irrelevant for any reason gender, religion, race, or gender orientation. I personally want my kids to be taught to stand up for anyone, even if this person is someone they don't like.
It IS feminists that fight for all of those things, including men's issues. Men's groups, usually fight for thier own only (notice I said usually, their ARE some great men out there!) Because of that, I think growing up in a feminist household will benefit my son in many, many ways.
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#104 of 105 Old 04-21-2005, 06:42 PM
 
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If you read studies that are not solely reliant of who calls the police you will see that women hit, kick, scratch, et men as much also (I am willing to read and listen to arguments against these studies, especially if they are poorly done but I do not see women/feminist discrediting the this way. They just go it ignores women’s issue.
I really don't think this is the case. There is one collection of studies by a group of academics that reports this (and these studies receive a great deal of media attention) and there have been numerous critiques of the flaws of these studies by feminists. Their research is more than a decade old by now, though-- and, meanwhile, the National Institute of Justice (hardly a feminist enterprise, especially under the Republican Government) has been collecting victimization statistics every year. What they report is that 85% of the victims of domestic violence are women, 15% are men. Domestic violence is NOT an equal opportunity crime, it is a gendered crime, and women are not perpetrators as often as men are. Even more objectively than who is a victim are the simple statistics on domestic homicides:

http://www.silentwitness.net/sub/violences.htm

About 3 times as many women are killed by their intimate partners as men. Even more disturbingly, homicides (which have generally declined in recent years) against men by non-intimates are still going down. Fewer men are being killed all the time, including the rates of those killed by intimates.

The same is not true for women-- the domestic homicides against women have not declined in the past 10 years as they have for men.

Do I care about the 15% of domestic violence victims who are men? Um, yes. Battered women's shelters do help these victims-- they help them get orders of protection and they provide alternative housing (e.g. hotel coupons) when they can. They (just like rape crisis programs) also provide counseling for male victims of abuse. The current system can satisfy the needs of male victims of domestic violence -- and anyone who insists that there needs to be a shelter for abused men is completely incorrect.

I'm not really sure what your point was in this post, but you need to face up to the fact that men are perpetrators of most of the violence-- not just domestically, but generally. And they need to be held accountable for that violence. Perhaps you should take some of your unsympathetic portrayal of women who kill their children and apply that to men who are violent, rather than whining about how violent men are so abused, oppressed etc. I find it very hypocritical that you have incredible scorn for women who are violent but make excuse after excuse, including supporting these excuses with bogus information and data, for violent men.

As long as women make excuses for violent men, they will continue to be violent. That's part of how patriarchy works-- get the victims to feel sorry for the perpetrators, and give them permission to continue to carry on their victimization.

Karla
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#105 of 105 Old 04-21-2005, 07:08 PM
 
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So we should say to hell with them? To hell with my son, your son, everybody son? Until men speak up?

......

Also, women need to take responsibility for themselves. Quit expecting men to do the protecting and providing. Face up to the fact that 60% of all convicted child abuser are women. That an infant is more likely to die at their mother's hands (during the first year of life). Call me heartless, I don’t give a rats ass about what a man has done to that womenor what a society has set up she has no right to kill her child.

Women are not the only people that struggle? Our boys won’t struggle to get out of the system that has been created before then, but not by them? So our boys we are not going to help our boys emotionally deal so they can fight the system that is before them? As women we should not set the example that only women’s issues are worth fighting. We need to teach our children that every person has rights that need to be respected and fought for. If we show irreverence to men’s issues we are making it acceptable to make a person irrelevant. I really don’t want my children to think it is ok to any one is irrelevant for any reason gender, religion, race, or gender orientation. I personally want my kids to be taught to stand up for anyone, even if this person is someone they don't like.

wow, you really project a lot into other posts. If you look back at all my posts in this thread, I am not saying "to hell with our sons"- actually quite the opposite. I am trying to figure out the best most effective way of allowing my son to stay the bright, loving, kind, sweet soul he is, and learn how to counteract the insidiuos conditioning that he has to hide that part of him, or that he must become more aggressive because its "how boys are" or something. Our boys and grown men are two different issues. I am mother to my two year old son, I protect him, care for him, nuture him, nurse him, respect him, and teach him to be a repectful thoughtful person. When he is an adult man, I will hold him accountable for his actions(this will actually have begun in childhood), and not make excuses for him, and not accept excuses, I will forgive him for mistakes b/c everyone is human and makes them, but I will not coddle him.
I have had my own issues to deal with. I dealt with them on my own. No one provided for me or protected me. No one solved my problems. I had to do it on my own, its everyones life's journey to do this healing work on their own. They may ask support and help from others but no one can solve their problems if they do not choose to do so on their own. I am not hating men or women by asking that they take responsibility for themselves and their actions. Adults need to work their own crap out.... women should not need to save men, men should not need to save women. We support each other, but thats different than taking abuse and making excuses for it.

MarsupialMom, you seem to be personally invested in defending all men. We can criticize some men without criticizing ALL men. Theres so many topics in your long posts, it could be about twenty different threads. I don't have the time or energy to respond to all of it, but as far as your statement that Bush won the election b/c women did not vote, .... well, that seems a little simplistic and inaccurate, there are many reasons that bush won--- voter disenfranchisement, fraud, the religious right's effectiveness in mobilizeing people to vote b/c of their homophobia and fear, Kerry's ineffectiveness to counteract the political spin against him, to name just a few.... I do not think its fair to blame women. It is definitely a problem that ALL people need to vote more, I agree with that. But thats another thread....

I thought this was supposed to be about sexism and our SONS?

homeschooling mama to 8 yr old biggrinbounce.gif with a new little one(5-5-2011) babyf.gif...  h20homebirth.gif

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