I thought about my comments all day yesterday. I typed off right before I rain off to work, it was haste. I did think all day what I type did not say what I meant. So forgive me on that. I am not stupid I know domestic violence reach a cross all social economic factors but why? What causes all these men to do this? Do you honestly think it just because of the Patriarchal system we have? A violent person is a violent person.
I do think we need to care about violent men because their violent acts are killing our children’s fathers, brothers, sisters, and mothers. Their actions do affect us. I am going to take it you never held onto your friend after their child, son was shot. Have you ever gone to a friend’s brother’s funeral from from murder? You never held her daughter or a friend because she was slicing her arms up due to the violence around her. They might not have ever been physically hurt by the violence but their hearts bleed deeply. In my junior and senior year I went to 7 funerals for male class mates. I saw all to well how these boys death affected women and myself.
Originally Posted by the sunshine
Yes, I agree with you here. As I mentioned earlier, do you see how, with very limited resources, women had to evaluate what hurt them the most and concentrate on that? I have to add that if men think they are so victimized, they need to step up to the plate and do something as well. It's not fair to expect women to do it for them.
The problem is men that are victimized cannot speak up. Several things happen:
1. Men label them less than worthy, gays, whiners, momma’s boys, et
2. Women label him as a wimp or whiner, or they will say something like “Well so what? Look what women have to go through. Grow up. Deal with it.” Criticized unrepentantly as being heartless and uncaring. This totally devalues them and their feelings.
It is not only men calling men sissy’s but women. If you go into a high school the guy that is less likely to have a girl friend is the “wimp, geek, cry baby” This does not mean we need to ignore the injustices to girls in high school but acknowledge and deal with the injustices of boys that are hurt by not being the strongest/most physically popular. This means we need to step back and teach our daughters it is acceptable for guys to be this way. Guys that deal with it and try to deal with their emotions with tears are outcasted by both sexes.
3. Many men don’t understand their own feelings or understand they are allowed to have those feelings! In another post on rape/sex abuse I mention male rape to plant ideas and to make people think. I did this because I recently had a discussion with a man that was raped (sodomized/molested depending on definitions) and he did not realize it was not his fault. It was not until he saw photos of the Iraq prisoners did he realize or learn that his erections and ejaculations did not mean that he really wanted it. He has spent many years questioning his sexuality and his feelings. He works with teens and it was never taught to him that a male erection and ejaculation does not equal enjoyment.
My dad was/is another example of a man that did not know or understand his feelings. Once he understood what he felt and were it came from did he change. (PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE this does not mean I think it was OK for him to be violent but an understanding to how to stop it in other people.) It also shows how male depression and other mental illnesses are often ignored or not diagnosed. (Health issues also. He was given viagra for prostate cancer).
Many men do not understand why and how isolated they feel and they have not been socialize any differently. They have grown to learn this is how men are, how they feel, and they are wrong for feeling or wanting anything different. You ask a father of a new born if he wishes he could stay home. Most will say yes, but they can’t because they have to work.
Look at how many men that do not know how they are harmed by circumcision? How many men won’t let anyone know that they feel violated and mutilated by it? They are and have been expected to deny the affects of circumcision. Told not to question the system or what it did to them. Look at the strugles and criticism of men that try to restore. How often they are told to get over it by their men and women? They get called and referred to psychs.
How can men step up for themselves when they are afraid to. They are afraid to be seen as “less” than. They are afraid they will be told to shut up and buck up once again. It is hard to admit something might be wrong with you. They are stuck in a system that is abusive to them the same restraints that hold/help women to a certain role holds men to another role.
How can I socialize my son, and all boys to help boys understand their feelings. How can I socialize my children to make it acceptable for boys to show emotions? I need to be careful not to accidentally raise my dds to think a boy that is less physically or financially superior is less and unworthy of their love (actually this goes for both genders). I need to make sure my girls and boy know that women don’t need “Protected” like the Patriarchal system has lead/set us to get accustom to. How they are raised will depend on how they turn out as men. How I raise my daughters will determined who they will choose as husbands what type of man(partners) to accept.
Once when my daughter was about two she was in a sand box with another girl and boy. My daughter hit this little girl and before I could get up and correct my child this other girls mom just laid into this little boy. This mom could not/would not phantom that another girl was mean to her girl. What message does that send to the little boy? What message did it send to the boy when he was not apologized to or emotionally validate? What happens to this boy when this happens year after year? What happens when these little boys get into the school setting and get put on Ritalin because their educational needs are not being met? We have made great strides in girls educations with science and math? But if you mention the fact that boys are behind in reading/language arts you get told so boys do better in science and math many women get stuck on only one part of the statisic? Many people never hear the other parts of the big picturs. If you mention boys drop out of school at higher rates, you get the same answer as so? More females than males plan college or further education, again you get response so, men make more money (totally ignoring most of the higher paying jobs are the worse and most deadliest jobs. I know someone before mention how many women are harassed off the jobs, but men are still socialized that then need to protect women. Kind of a paradox.) We have seen great strides with getting women and ethnic minorities on student governments but in high schools now girls are more involved in student government than boys. What does this unbalance lead to? Why are boys becoming so uninvolved and disengaged in their government and communities? Does this really benefit us all when they no longer care or don’t think they are worthy of them? How do we/society benifit when we hear the boys say why bother they (girls/women) won't listen? Why do they feel this way? I don't think my dds benifit from this nor my son.
My son has been made to feel that it was his fault over and over again. When he has wanted to run in the play ground and I sent him off to an area with no other children, he expected to stop if there is a girl that doesn’t like it. He is except to change his game to fit a girl. The girl cannot run as fast he has been asked to slow down for her. There are times I tell him change the game, because it is appropriate but there are times it is inappropriate for a game to change just because the girl is slower. We are talking about times when the boy/s were at least 3 years older and there are plenty other kids begging the girl to join in their game of tag. My girls have been told they play with boys too much because they are too rough. What message does that send 1. Boys are suppose to be rough. 2. That being rough is bad. I have been left a little dumbfounded when he has left the group to be by himself and have been warn that is anti-social behavior. My son has been told he was mean because he refuse to play with a girl instead of reading a book to himself. I was told he was beign sexist when he stopped reading allowed, never mind his motive was he didn't know this book if this book would be parent approved by her parent. I have had my son been the bad guy for defending his sister when the other little girls were being mean to her. I have had my friends whose sons were put in the same accusing position.
When he was in 1st grade and he had a crush on a little girl it was us that got a talking to more. He was not suppose to hold this girls’ hand. He was not suppose to be affectionate in anyway towards this girl. He was wrong for feeling this way. He was being over sexual. It didn’t matter that she willingly reciprocated. I remember one day this little girl got up in class and kissed my son. When I came to pick him up the teacher talked to me about it. She told me that my son could not be doing this. Then she looked shocked when I asked what he was doing? Sitting in his desk? I asked if she had talked to this girls mom, she said not yet. When I called this girls mom (because we did have an issue of not appropriate behavior not putting haloes on either kids head) The mom was never informed by the school. This happened over-and-over, this other mom only heard half of the story/situation. This girls mom was given the impression that my son was the aggressor. When reality was it was between both children and it was mutual (not all was appropriate behavior). It is hard to explain to your child why it is not ok to kiss a girl or just hold a girls hand but it is ok for two girls to hold hands. It is hard to explain why it is not socially acceptable for him to be friends with this little girl and it was the adults making it unacceptable. He got angry because he was always at fault in the situations. We he got talk to at school he said it was always him that got in trouble. The teacher would scold him and punish him more severly for the same crime (and I believe him because of what I saw personally).
How advance have we gotten when boys don’t want girls on their hockey team because if they fall on them they might touch them and get in trouble? On of our friend is a hockey coach, when they got girls on the team that was the response of the boys when they got question about isolating/ignoring the girls. These boys know the physical ness of this sport. They can fall on each other and they are afraid if they fall on a girl they will be accused of something sexual: in part because this had happen to one of the boys on another team, in part they are still socialize not to hurt girls. How advance are we if a woman is going up a ladder aboard ship is allowed to fall because the guys are afraid of getting accused of sexual harassment for grabbing her butt (same place they would grab a man in this situation)? Why hasn’t the necessary bonds not been made to make ship life functioning? How can we understand these issues if we don’t take time to learn or understand what the men are thinking and feeling when they are in these situation?
Originally Posted by the sunshine
Who exactly set up this system? It wasn't women. If women couldn't even hold a job (!!!), or couldnt' get a job that would allow them to survive, of course they had to find a man to support them!
Have you ever stopped a moment and ever thought about or wonder if women ever benefited by this system? Have you ever thought about why it has lasted for so long? Yes, women paid a crappy price for this system but this system at one time did protect women. It was the men that went off to fight wars, be the slaves/indentured servants, take the physically deadly jobs that protected the women, children, and home. The necessity of this system has LONG been outdated, but a 1000-2000 years ago (or when ever it started) it did serve a purpose called survival and protection. It provide women protection from horrible deadly jobs. Was it ever right?? NO!! THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE SYSTEM RIGHT!!
This idea of women needing protection still comes up. Look at the military and all the lame reasons given why women shouldn’t be in boils down to people being socialize to think women need protection. Men are socialize to think that they need to protect women. We need to ask ourselves how are our men being socialized this what how are we (both genders) teaching these lessons. My dad has been in the military for 31 years. He will tell you that he doesn’t want a woman beside him because he feels obligated to protect her, his wife agree with him because if he is busy protecting a woman he might die. He fought my mom when she went in (mom is retired AF). My mom acknowledge this fact that men felt they needed to protect her, especially after she divorced my father. When I was in, I saw this happening. I saw women benefiting form this and yet being “held back” by this. This most startlingly example was what happened in the motor pool. Women got away with not moving heavy tools, they were protected from this hard work. Yet, they could not understand why the guys didn’t want them there. How their actions of getting the guys to do it also negatively effected them. These women also go very mad when a woman step up to the plate and did the job and “proved” herself (that a girl can do it). I had a traditionally male job. I did quite well at because I made sure I was not letting the guys protect me from part of my job.
Paying for dates: Women are now starting to have more money than men. Yet a guy still has to pay even if a women makes more money. When the tables are turn men still pay. Also, how often do you see a women even date a man lower than her status (or at least have potent ional to be at a higher status)? It is a rarity and people question the guy’s abilities. This sends the message to boys that they need to earn the $$$$ so they can provide these things. So they don’t choose lower paying jobs like teaching. And if they do, they end up in administrative because it pays more. It sends the message that women need to be protected and provided for.
My dh works with a young man (22ish) that is in college. He meet this girl at their job (restaurant) she wouldn’t have anything to do with him, but when she ran into him at Wash U. It was another story. He was not worthy on her attention when she precieved him as poor. Then he was a jerk for not giving her attention when she figured out he has great potential for future money. How does this behavior and expectations effect him later? Why is it shocking that he gets embittered and develops an attitude that women don’t truly care about him unless he is making money? This does not make it right for him to become violent but it is an understanding to how we get from point A to point B. It shows us how we need to change how we socialization our children (not just boys but girls). Why is it socially acceptable for a woman do be this way?
Also about male activism. When a man stands up and argues for equal rights he is called horrible things. He is force to spend more money on getting custody and enforced visitation. Statistic do not support your lady’s argument about men getting custody of children after divorce.
"Ninety percent of divorced fathers have less than full custody of their children." Jonathan M. Honeycutt, Ph.D.(c), M.P.A., M.A., I.P.C. Director of Research, Clinical & Consulting Psychotherapist, National Institute for Divorce Research, Panama City, Florida.
But to look at this situation properly you have to see that fathers are getting JOINT custody of their children and they are spending more money to gain this right.
When you dig into men organization sites and then verify information (which can be difficult at times) you find facts that men are being betrayed wrongly. You hear about how men abuse there kids however, 70 percent of confirmed cases of child abuse and 65 percent of parental murders of children are committed by mothers, not fathers, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. This is cross social economical factors. This is not only happening in homes were their is an abusive man. So when you make this a gender issue you make it a gender divide and it does not help the victims.
I have spent time digging reading into sites I don’t like, reading books I don't care for. Trying to understand the world I must send my children off into. I find myths and statistics that are poorly studied, studies that were not done at all, statistics that were oversimplified then these thoughts/ideas/assumptions became a status quo on how many people think and view the world. Any study that disagrees with a feminist view is often ignored or buried. It is hard to dig into the research to find out if they are valid or not.
If you dare say anything that disagrees with feminist you are criticized and attacked not listen to called a fool. I am trying to stand in the middle between the feminist and the people that would like to see the system completely stay the same (the political “right”). Two poles that actively manipulate the statistics and issues. I see that there are valid points and issue from both sides but we need to listen to the other side. We need to understand so we can help people overcome these feelings.
When society hangs on to one cause of domestic violence blaming completely on the Patriarchal system it totally ignores other issues that could prevent it like mental illness, drug abuse, and alcoholism. It completely ignores issues that statistically lesbian relationships are more violent than gay relationship (why is this? Why don’t you hear of studies that bring this information?) It completely ignores that women can be violent too. Many people give the excuse well a women was trying to protect herself but the studies I have seen this is not always the case. When asked being physically at danger does not always lead to women violence.
When we polarize issues as only male or only female we create a further the “battle of the sexes”.