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#91 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:12 PM
 
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Different children learn mentally developmental things at different ages.. Just as with every other developmental stage..
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And your implying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is at best condesending and at worst alienating to people who MAY have agreed with you if you could manage to present your views in a different way.
Thank you Pynki. That is *EXACTLY* what I was so obviously ineptly trying to convey. That's all... man, I gotta learn how to say what I mean!

Full time working mom to two bright and busy little girls! treehugger.gif
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#92 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:15 PM
 
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I didn't read all of the responses, so if this has been brought up, just disregard my response.

To the OP--do you have family pets? I have found (in my limited experience) that kids who are brought up with pets do better around other animals because they have a chance to see that animals do some of the same things that we do (mammals or not)--like eat, sleep, etc. They also see how their parents interact and treat animals. They see good examples of behavior around living creatures when parents model feeding/grooming/caring for a pet.
We have an assortment of pets, and when my dd was a little toddler, she would try to pull the tails of the dogs (and was always redirected), but as she grew, she learned to respect them and help to care for them. She understands (even at 3) that they can be cold, hungry, or tired. If she sees the dog shaking (from a thunderstorm) she says: "He's scared." And she'll cover the dog with a blanket when this happens.

If you don't have a pet, why not get a pet frog? If that's out of the question, how about some really good books on frogs? Show your son how they live--how they eat and sleep. If you can't find a good book, maybe a stuffed frog that you name will have an impact. Give him a name, and a "personality". This might help him to make a connection.
Maybe there's a good DVD/video on frogs. Something to help him make a connection.

I would say that the first time he killed a frog, consider it a learning experience. The first time would give you a chance to talk about living creatures, God (if that fits your beliefs), empathy, etc., but after that, it would seem to be a problem.
And I don't know what kind of a problem it would be called--but killing is a problem, especially when it happens repeatedly.

Best of luck to you, I am sure that this is troubling and stressful for your whole family.
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#93 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:15 PM
 
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Last year my front porch light was out all summer because a nest of hornets had moved in- I won't even kill those.
See, that's where I draw the line.

Those hornets (and I've been in a similar situation) could *seriously* harm my child.

You can't reason with stingers! :LOL

Myself - I know how to avoid a nest. But one split second, and my toddler could be the centre of a very deadly hornet attack.

I just couldn't risk that.

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#94 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy
frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?
You missed my point- I said:
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Originally Posted by ME :)
...not every toddler who kills the odd bug (or frog! ) is going to torture cats as he gets older...
I meant to say that because he killed a frog at four, we do not have to expect that by the time he is ten he will be torturing cats. Does that make more sense to you?

(Frankly, I am not a cat person, & it makes me just as sad to hear about frogs being hurt as it does to hear about cats being hurt.)
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#95 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by edamommy
hmmmmmmmmm my ds is 26 months old. I am not saying that he "grasps" death or the likes, but he DOES understand pain. He knows that he cannot pick up or attempt to pick up the cat or the rabbit as it may hurt them. He knows that his feet are for walking and jumping and kicking balls (etc) and NEVER for hurting an animal or another human. He KNOWS this! He converses about it. He follows the rule... once he pulled the cats tail and got bit... ONCE! And he's never abused the other animals either. Or his friends lizard and turtle. He is VERY curious. He is VERY active. But he truly understands that! And, his best buddy is 4... and he isn't a frog squisher (or whatever) either! SO, are these exceptional little boys?
Not sure why you are getting so defensive in this thread. Your boy sounds wonderful. You are lucky he understands how to treat animals at so young an age. Many little ones are still not sure. To condemn a mama just because her little guy is exploring what he can do is not supportive at all. The OP is looking for support not negative judgement. Your boy sounds great. I think everyone writing herein can agree that all boys are not into killing. And, yes, some people go overboard and kill animals as a precursor to killing people. But, this little guy is 4. He is most likely just exploring and he will outgrow it, especially with a mama who is concerned enough to write in mdc and ask for help (not judgement).

You know, I am not even slightly religious but I do think the golden rule is a good one: if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
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#96 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy
frog, cat... what's the difference? Soft and fuzzy and NOT so much soft and fuzzy?

You know, for ME and MY family this may have happend ONCE (may happen once) ... but it wouldn't happen again. I'm mostly shocked that this kid did it more than once?!?!? Sure, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt the first time around... but someone missed the bus to have this sort of thing happen more than once! :
I am really getting quite offended by your comments. I wish this thread would be closed at this point.

I frankly don't think you are getting it, I've tried to express that I see where you are coming from as a parent of one single child. I assure you I haven't missed the bus. I hope in a few years if you ever have a situation with your child that someone does not talk so condescending and judgemental to you.

I will definitely think twice before ever asking a very specific parenting question in regards to my own children in this forum again.
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#97 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
Those hornets (and I've been in a similar situation) could *seriously* harm my child.
yeah, you're probably right. My kids and I all got used to it being there, and have not had an incident...
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#98 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by joesmom
I feel bad for the OP- like she is going to be watching every move this little boy makes- waiting for the next shoe to drop...

I do agree that sometimes when a kid hurts animals it is because of problems at home, or due to deep seated emotional issues- but sometimes, it is just because the kid does not fully "get" what he is doing.
I don't think my child killed a frog because of problems at home or deep seated emotional issues. As I said, he is micromanaged enough in other areas, probably when he really shouldn't be and I am not going to do anymore in that area than I have been.
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#99 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:31 PM
 
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never mind
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#100 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Raven67
OTF...why do you run over so many frogs?? I really don't understand that statement. I have frogs, squirells, birds, worms, snakes in my driveway, and I check before pulling out/in, to make sure nothing is in the way. The times I have run over roadkill (already dead) I feel kind of nauseous and sad. I think seeing your words about the frogs that you run over, and how you never care or give it a thought...puts this in a whole different light. It makes much more sense now. If you don't care at all when you run over a frog, why don't you want your son doing the same thing? I'm sure it's going to make it all the more difficult for you son to learn empathy for animals when there are so many exceptions around him.
I can't believe you just asked this. Like I am purposely mowing frogs over for entertainment. LMAO.
I live in an area that is near watershed and wetland. Frogs are everywhere. Tree frogs, hundreds of them are on our house each nice, other species of frogs and toads are out everywhere -- sidewalks, roads, driveways. Sorry, I am not going to be sweeping off my 2-3000 square feet of driveway everytime I go out of the house to use the car to spare frogs, crickets, worms or other things like that. So to me its unintentional killing. My son however did it with thought in mind, whether that be out of curiousity, etc. I want to add again, I don't see frogs the same way some of you do -- I definitely do not put them in the same bracket of birds, cats, or dogs.
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#101 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence
I will definitely think twice before ever asking a very specific parenting question in regards to my own children in this forum again.
I hope you don't let one persons negativity keep you from posting here. Overall you had a lot of support, leave the rest behind.
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#102 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mommytolittlelilly
I don't think she absolutely must watch every move her son makes, but she could do that if she wants to. Really though, I don't think monitoring every little move he makes is, in itself, going to be that helpful for this boy in the long term. I'm of the opinion that watching every move he makes might even make things worse.

I think the fact that it's happened repeatedly, though, probably warrants mom and dad stepping back to take a look at the big picture to see what thing(s) might be troubling him.
Did you read the OP, I said it has happened three times. Twice in the past several months, and once a year plus ago. He was only three the first time it happened. Good lord, why does something have to be troubling him or wrong with his psychology to do this or wrong with us?
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#103 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:43 PM
 
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Sorry - I didn't mean to offend! I remembered it was more than once, and I had the timing wrong. It was just a suggestion, and I'm really not trying to condemn you or your son....

I don't mean that there's something critically wrong with what you're doing or not doing, either. I was just thinking how when Lilly gets upset that I'm not around much during the day, she can start slapping and biting sometimes.
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#104 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy
Our line is drawn by intelligent compassion...


OK, then how 'bout some "intelligent compassion" for the OP, too?


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Originally Posted by cmb123
my front porch light was out all summer because a nest of hornets had moved in- I won't even kill those. ... Seeing a kid carve letters into a tree breaks my heart as much as hearing the frog story. I've been that way since I was a kid
I find myself in the weird position of agreeing with the tree thing, but would gladly kill the hornets (and other bugs)! At least you seem to have an internally consistent view, while I, for some reason, cannot!

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#105 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brisen
Hey, kids are animals too. They deserve fresh air and sunshine just as much as any ant, frog, chicken, or pig. :
This totally made my morning! :LOL
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#106 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by boongirl

You know, I am not even slightly religious but I do think the golden rule is a good one: if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
eh? THis is regarding animal abuse... and no one should have something "nice" to say about that! Why is it so unPC to say it the way it is? Why do we have to coddle the op into thinking it's okeydokey to stomp on frogs...
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#107 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence
Did you read the OP, I said it has happened three times. Twice in the past several months, and once a year plus ago. He was only three the first time it happened. Good lord, why does something have to be troubling him or wrong with his psychology to do this or wrong with us?

Knock knock knock HELLLLLOOOOOOOOOO... he's killing frogs!
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#108 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy
eh? THis is regarding animal abuse... and no one should have something "nice" to say about that! Why is it so unPC to say it the way it is? Why do we have to coddle the op into thinking it's okeydokey to stomp on frogs...
I didn't see than anyone was "okey dokey" about stomping on frogs. Just that it isn't completly unusual for a 4 year old to do.
As someone who is very much an animal rights person, I know there is more than one way to get a point across. Being nasty usually isn't it.
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#109 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy
eh? THis is regarding animal abuse... and no one should have something "nice" to say about that! Why is it so unPC to say it the way it is? Why do we have to coddle the op into thinking it's okeydokey to stomp on frogs...
Oy. A frog is not an animal -- at least not the last time I checked.


:::back to eating my hamburger:::
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#110 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:50 PM
 
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Dear Lord,
How will I ever be able to eat a salad again?!?! Isn't lettuce just as alive as a tree?
and as Chucklin's Mommy wrote: It never ceases to amaze me that supposedly we are raising compassionate, loving, empathetic children when it seems that we can't even BEGIN to practice it ourselves. Its eye raising, really.
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#111 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence
I don't think my child killed a frog because of problems at home or deep seated emotional issues. As I said, he is micromanaged enough in other areas, probably when he really shouldn't be and I am not going to do anymore in that area than I have been.

I don't think he did either, OTF. I feel like you must have misintrepreted what I posted- I meant it in SUPPORT of you & your son.
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#112 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Chunklin'sMommy
I find myself in the weird position of agreeing with the tree thing, but would gladly kill the hornets (and other bugs)! At least you seem to have an internally consistent view, while I, for some reason, cannot!
ya, until one of us ends up in the ER with some horrible hornet sting 'cause Mommy won't kill the freakin hornets! :LOL It'll probably be me..
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#113 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by darsmama
Dear Lord,
How will I ever be able to eat a salad again?!?! Isn't lettuce just as alive as a tree?
and as Chucklin's Mommy wrote: It never ceases to amaze me that supposedly we are raising compassionate, loving, empathetic children when it seems that we can't even BEGIN to practice it ourselves. Its eye raising, really.
There was lettuce on my burger too!

Actually seeing the poster in question reminds me of my early years as a parent. Ah, can I just put a general apology out there to the world now -- frogive me.
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#114 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:54 PM
 
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Edamommy, to be honest - I've noticed you the last month on animal rights posts and thought WOW, shes really a caring person! I was even going to look up old posts and look at Veganism more, but frankly - your PETA like tactics leave something to be desired! Nastiness is NOT the way to go. I'm passionate about circ, but I NEVER get rude with people to get my point across. It weakens the argument!
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#115 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by joesmom
I don't think he did either, OTF. I feel like you must have misintrepreted what I posted- I meant it in SUPPORT of you & your son.
O, I definitely think you were writing in support, I just wanted to state one more time for the record. LOL
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#116 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cmb123
I didn't see than anyone was "okey dokey" about stomping on frogs. Just that it isn't completly unusual for a 4 year old to do.
As someone who is very much an animal rights person, I know there is more than one way to get a point across. Being nasty usually isn't it.
I'm having a very hard time not being nasty about this. This child has done this 4 times. Not once. And the very idea that someone (or more than just a someone) would have the gall to use the "well plants feel pain too" schtick in supporting their rationalizing of the animal abuse just puts my panties in a wad, if you will. And it's really freaking me out that so many mamas are willing to overlook the seriousness of this issue (animal abuse) to "not cause waves" or to "not make the op feel bad" or whatever! And the very fact that so many mama's think it's not too strange for a child to have done this (not once, FOUR times) is also very very disturbing to me... it's a nasty subject.

Oh, and for those who are wondering... I've tried the "you catch more flies w/ honey" thing... and it's just now true! lol
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#117 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darsmama
Edamommy, to be honest - I've noticed you the last month on animal rights posts and thought WOW, shes really a caring person! I was even going to look up old posts and look at Veganism more, but frankly - your PETA like tactics leave something to be desired! Nastiness is NOT the way to go. I'm passionate about circ, but I NEVER get rude with people to get my point across. It weakens the argument!
*sorry to let you down. GO ahead and skip my posts! I am totally not intersted in supporting the idea that it's okay to kill frogs- repeatidly.
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#118 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darsmama
your PETA like tactics leave something to be desired! Nastiness is NOT the way to go. I'm passionate about circ, but I NEVER get rude with people to get my point across. It weakens the argument!
and makes it harder for many of us who would like to share our views in a more positive way.
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#119 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:58 PM
 
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Ok, since we are so far off topic anyways; CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY eating lettuce, carrots, etc. is NOT the same as eating a living thing (IE: frog legs)? Or is it the 'they aren't mammals' (so its ok to eat fish and frogs?) this is really driving me nuts. What about maggots, some people eat them - is that against veganism!?

Who drew the line, where!?

Just a quick explanation...please.
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#120 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 02:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy
And it's really freaking me out that so many mamas are willing to overlook the seriousness of this issue (animal abuse) to "not cause waves" or to "not make the op feel bad" or whatever!
I gave the OP support because one of my DS's did something similar to a frog when he was around the same age.

I am happy to report that now he is a very empathetic child - and a huge frog lover
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