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#121 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:00 PM
 
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Ah, can I just put a general apology out there to the world now -- frogive me.
:LOL "frogive me" - done!

edamommy, you've taken an interesting opportunity for growth and learning and turned it into something sour and hateful.

To OnTheFence - you sound like a caring and concerned mama, and guess what? One day you'll be able to look back on this and laugh.

And yeah, one last poke... I didn't know a frog was an animal either. Pass me the steak.

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#122 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy
I'm having a very hard time not being nasty about this. This child has done this 4 times. Not once. And the very idea that someone (or more than just a someone) would have the gall to use the "well plants feel pain too" schtick in supporting their rationalizing of the animal abuse just puts my panties in a wad, if you will. And it's really freaking me out that so many mamas are willing to overlook the seriousness of this issue (animal abuse) to "not cause waves" or to "not make the op feel bad" or whatever! And the very fact that so many mama's think it's not too strange for a child to have done this (not once, FOUR times) is also very very disturbing to me... it's a nasty subject.

Oh, and for those who are wondering... I've tried the "you catch more flies w/ honey" thing... and it's just now true! lol
NO ONE is condoning it.. We've said that we agree.. It's disturbing to see.. But that doesn't mean it's developementally inappropriate..

You OPINION on the matter is no better than anyone elses.. EVERYONE has the right to an opinion.. And implying we are all sick in the head for not agreeing with you isn't sitting well with most of us.

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#123 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:02 PM
 
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Pm me even. I am not being snarky at all.
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#124 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darsmama
Ok, since we are so far off topic anyways; CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY eating lettuce, carrots, etc. is NOT the same as eating a living thing (IE: frog legs)? Or is it the 'they aren't mammals' (so its ok to eat fish and frogs?) this is really driving me nuts. What about maggots, some people eat them - is that against veganism!?

Who drew the line, where!?

Just a quick explanation...please.
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.......... ahhh you slay me. If that needs to be explained (btw- I already mentioned that that comparison is so lame it doesn't deserve any sort of explanation... it comes out of carni's mouths a zillion times a day ... it's like an omni defense or something. teeehee) to you then ... phew... come on now.
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#125 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:04 PM
 
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Who drew the line, where!?
I don't think there is one necessarily. I think it's up to an individual...

Some posters are questioning it because one pp is calling the scenario "animal abuse".

With all the serious cases of animal abuse out there, I'd hardly call an exuberant (and okay, misguided by his own intentions) four year old stomping frogs *abuse*.

And again - yeah, it's not nice to stomp frogs and the op is looking for ways to help curb the behaviour, help her four year old know better.

It's just that some people are being wayyyy over zealous in their beliefs.

The op was looking for support and help, not a condemnation.

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#126 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy
I'm having a very hard time not being nasty about this. This child has done this 4 times. Not once. And the very idea that someone (or more than just a someone) would have the gall to use the "well plants feel pain too" schtick in supporting their rationalizing of the animal abuse just puts my panties in a wad, if you will. And it's really freaking me out that so many mamas are willing to overlook the seriousness of this issue (animal abuse) to "not cause waves" or to "not make the op feel bad" or whatever! And the very fact that so many mama's think it's not too strange for a child to have done this (not once, FOUR times) is also very very disturbing to me... it's a nasty subject.

Oh, and for those who are wondering... I've tried the "you catch more flies w/ honey" thing... and it's just now true! lol
Three times. Lets be accurate, shall we?

I believe you are being quite arrogant in your assumptions about children, especially my child. I have a background in sociology and anthropology and animal killing by children is not anything new -- in fact it was part of survival. I've talked to several professional at this point, and they don't seem to be alarmed and put this behavior (even it happening three times over a cours of more than a year) as normal childhood behavior. However, I still do not want my child doing it. I want him to internally know not to do it, not be micro-managed not to do it, not be restricted from playing out doors not do it. I also don't want him having the beliefs you do, because we are meat eaters. No PETA for us thank ya very much. Its not that I think your beliefs are wrong, but different, and we have made a choice to eat meat, and value animals, amphibians, and insects differently.
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#127 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:05 PM
 
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I'm just stumped.

I've heard that stinging nettles won't sting you (sometimes) if you ask permission to pick them.

Kinda weird.
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#128 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darsmama
Ok, since we are so far off topic anyways; CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY eating lettuce, carrots, etc. is NOT the same as eating a living thing (IE: frog legs)? Or is it the 'they aren't mammals' (so its ok to eat fish and frogs?) this is really driving me nuts. What about maggots, some people eat them - is that against veganism!?

Who drew the line, where!?

Just a quick explanation...please.
Well, honestly I couldn't answer you as to why I feel differently about lettuce and carrott. Yes they are living, important things. But they are not alive with a heart and a brain etc...It does seem different to me. I don't mind being called a hypocrite if you think that's truely hipocritical. I actually really don't see a parallel from a cow to a carrott. But I also don't eat frog legs or fish. I also try to eat organic veggies, since one of the reasons I don't eat meat is the damage to our earth from it's production.
Oh..and I don't eat maggots either
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#129 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:06 PM
 
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You know Edamommy..

Dar REALLY is genually SEEKING knowledge you have.. Perhaps rather than belittling her you could PM her LIKE SHE ASKED YOU TO.. So she could FURTHER HER UNDERSTANDING of your view!!!

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#130 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:07 PM
 
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I guess I'm as ignoranus as I look...


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#131 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Itlbokay
I gave the OP support because one of my DS's did something similar to a frog when he was around the same age.

I am happy to report that now he is a very empathetic child - and a huge frog lover
My son, as I have said is very empathetic. Maybe not to frogs tho.

I am not having this problem with humans or pets, just frogs. (I frankly dont care about bugs)

We should have a frog smilie. :
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#132 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
edamommy, you've taken an interesting opportunity for growth and learning and turned it into something sour and hateful.
: It is obvious the majority here feel that this little guy is going to be all right and will live through his frog killing experience to become a nice man. Maybe edamommy should just bow out of this discussion now.

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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
To OnTheFence - you sound like a caring and concerned mama, and guess what? One day you'll be able to look back on this and laugh.
I agree. My brother, another former frog killer, definitely looks back on his childhood and giggles with me. Reminder: he is now a nice guy, vegan, environmentalist, and horticulturalist. Frog killing children do not necessarily become adult maniacs. Sometimes, it is just about experimentation. And, if you read anything about brain development, children don't fully develop the capacity for logical reasoning and logical decision making until they are 18-21 years old! That is just brain development fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoesmummy
And yeah, one last poke... I didn't know a frog was an animal either. Pass me the steak.
Hey, onthefence, maybe you and your little guy should just take some cooking lessons? (Frog legs, frog soup, etc.)

:LOL :LOL
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#133 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
:LOL "frogive me" - done!
OMG, I just saw that. I swear that was a typo! :LOL :
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#134 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:09 PM
 
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It's never ignorant to ask genuine questions.

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#135 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:10 PM
 
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Sorry, we x posted...

Hmm..Thanks for a brief explanation CMB. Perhaps it is like religion...Dosen't make sense to everyone.
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#136 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:10 PM
 
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OMG, I just saw that. I swear that was a typo!
It was the best typo I've seen in awhile; and there's been some funny ones! :LOL

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#137 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence
O, I definitely think you were writing in support, I just wanted to state one more time for the record. LOL
Good! Just makin' sure!
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#138 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:23 PM
 
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Someone should dddc OTF : Frogive Me
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#139 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:24 PM
 
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I have a $2.50 credit, let me
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#140 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darsmama
Perhaps it is like religion...Dosen't make sense to everyone.
Hey! Maybe we could start debating that here now too!! That always goes over just as well as the veggie conversations! :LOL
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#141 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:25 PM
 
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OTF:

I understand your frustration here.

While most of the moms here are not condoning your son's actions, we aren't condeming them either. I understand that it is hard to teach a child what we just "know" is right and wrong.

The other night, Goo ripped a branch off of Jake- our favorite plant in the house. All I can say is that you have to ignore those who are trying to make you out as the bad guy and listen to the advice of those who are trying to help!
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#142 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:25 PM
 
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Ok, Itlbokay - You are blessed with the right. :LOL
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#143 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:25 PM
 
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hey all, i read 4 pages and that was about all i could take....so excuse me if this is out in left field.

OntheFence, I think you have gotten some great suggestions.
I loved: reading books about frogs, showing your empathy--hopefully it won't happen again, but if it did, then maybe having a burial...maybe a stuffed frog or small animal. no pet yet.

*I* would also probably say firmly that we don't hurt our animal friends. Once.

I would think over-supervision or punishment at this point would do more harm and escalate the problem.

I think he will be fine.


I don't know enough about bi-polar to address from that end. But since he is seeing someone I'm sure you can get more tips--sorry if i missed that part.
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#144 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darsmama
I guess I'm as ignoranus as I look...


That's for you to determine, god forbid anyone should judge anyone else here. Vegans don't eat animals because of they are "sentient" beings, meaning they have feelings, physical and emotional. They suffer from cruelty and and try to avoid pain....many animals also have an awareness of their impending deaths, as you can see when you try to kill them and they try desperately to escape. There is no reliable evidence that plants share these qualities, in any meaningful way. People usually throw the plant thing out there, not because they care about plants and suffering, but to try to take the focus off of the torture and killing of animals. Vegans just don't want to be any part of the deliberate and avoidable killing/harming of animals...of course, there are animals killed incidentally, like when we mow the grass...but, that doesn't excuse the intential infliction of harm and killing. Just because one cannot reduce or eliminate all animal suffering in the world doesn't mean one shouldn't eliminate as much as possible. I have so much respect for vegans....I am veg, and trying to move toward veganism myself...Just because I am not there yet, doesn't mean I can't understand and respect the position.

OP: Why do you think amphibians aren't animals?? We are all in the animal kingdom: humans, monkeys, dogs, frogs, grasshoppers...(amphibians, insects, mammals are all subdivisions within the kingdom)
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#145 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:27 PM
 
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I wasn't going to post here....but ya'll sucked me in

First, frogs are animals. Not sure if that was suppose to be a joke or sarcastic, but frog = animal.

Second, while killing frogs is not cool, not something I do or support, and can be indicative of a problem IF it continued past the age of empathy, I think a 4 year old boy is not thinking "yippee, I love to torture animals....then maybe people later....". I do not think the OP's ds has a serious problem or anything. I second the idea of getting him a pet frog or some good books/videos about frogs to help him understand that frogs do not like being squished. While it is very upsetting for me to hear about a little boy killing frogs, frankly it is no different than eating a hamburger in my book (actually better since the frog at least had a normal life before being killed). So I could get all huffy about it, but then I would have no friends.

Third, you can tell from my username that I am a vegan so I feel qualified to answer the "why is it OK to kill plants" question. Plants are not sentinent beings. They do not feel pain, they have no social behaviors, etc.... Of course I also do not think killing plants just for fun is OK either. So point A - Killing anything for no reason = bad. Obviously all creatures need to eat, humans included. We have choices about what we eat. While I believe humans were meant to eat meat, we were not meant to tinker with nature OR make animals live terrible lives just so we can eat burgers. Therefore point B - We have a choice and I choose to avoid torturing sentinent beings whenever possble. There are environmental aspects too in that plant based diets tax the land less than meat based diets. People write entire volumes on this subject so I will stop now. But that is the reason I feel there is a differnece between plants and animals.

Fourth, I know you all are fired up and it is really fun to pick-on-the-vegans, especially when one is being a little too militant on the issue, but making jokes about eating burgers is offensive to me. Stating that you like meat or mentioning burgers, or posting meat recipes is not offensive, but I find nothing funny about poking fun at someone's beliefs by mentioning something that is actually quite graphic to me.
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#146 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence
We should have a frog smilie. :
NEMMER!!! This would be great.
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#147 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy
eh? THis is regarding animal abuse... and no one should have something "nice" to say about that! Why is it so unPC to say it the way it is? Why do we have to coddle the op into thinking it's okeydokey to stomp on frogs...
the op did not think it was okay at all. she made that pretty clear.
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#148 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:31 PM
 
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OTF - just wanted to give you a and my support & understanding.
I had a little brother ... 'nuff said.

"frogive me" just about had me peeing my pants! :
Little Freudian slip, there?

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#149 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Raven67
That's for you to determine, god forbid anyone should judge anyone else here. Vegans don't eat animals because of they are "sentient" beings, meaning they have feelings, physical and emotional. They suffer from cruelty and and try to avoid pain....many animals also have an awareness of their impending deaths, as you can see when you try to kill them and they try desperately to escape. There is no reliable evidence that plants share these qualities, in any meaningful way. People usually throw the plant thing out there, not because they care about plants and suffering, but to try to take the focus off of the torture and killing of animals. Vegans just don't want to be any part of the deliberate and avoidable killing/harming of animals...of course, there are animals killed incidentally, like when we mow the grass...but, that doesn't excuse the intential infliction of harm and killing. Just because one cannot reduce or eliminate all animal suffering in the world doesn't mean one shouldn't eliminate as much as possible. I have so much respect for vegans....I am veg, and trying to move toward veganism myself...Just because I am not there yet, doesn't mean I can't understand and respect the position.

OP: Why do you think amphibians aren't animals?? We are all in the animal kingdom: humans, monkeys, dogs, frogs, grasshoppers...(amphibians, insects, mammals are all subdivisions within the kingdom)

**oh mama, thank you for being able to express yourself so intelligently and with such a levelhead. Believe it or not... that's just what I wanted to say. Unfortunatly I'm a hothead.. Again, wonderful post. :
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#150 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 03:32 PM
 
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"yippee, I love to torture animals....then maybe people later....".


I just seriously sprayed Coke out my nose!

ETA: I mean that in a nice way, it was really funny. But only if you meant it that way - ack! :

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