Killing Frogs - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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#181 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:09 PM
 
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I am not asking you to tiptoe around people's known or unknown beliefs, but you knew full well that the burger comment was going to be offensive to Edamommy. Yes, she was harsh. But you fail to realize that many veg*ns are reading and you are intentionally offending people who have been respectful to you in your attempt to "get back" at EM.
You.can.not.be.serious.

You are condoning the radical, hateful comments of one pp and telling me I need to be more respectful with my posts because I am "unintentionally" offending others?

And trust me, I was not *getting back* at ANYONE. That is so junior high. I was making a "joke" - as in ha ha?

Guess what? I wasn't the only one laughing, or making a joke. Feel free to go back and attack someone else. Or am I an easier target because I'm arguing back?

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#182 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
110% yes.

It sounds like you are using your spirituality as a crutch.

And I don't appreciate the "hatred" comment.

That's a strong word, considering the fact that the op was so belittled and looked down upon.

I consider that hatred.

I'm only calling certain posters to task on what they're claiming.

I "still" don't feel bad about the meat eating comments guys! I can't believe that what was said to the op about animal abuse, and watching her little one "closely" is okay - but my remark wasn't.
What is hatred? I see someone that made a comment to intentionally offend people in a snarky way. Comment offended several people that have been respectful. People mentioned this. Comment maker seems to think it is totally fine to make people feel bad because they do not believe the same thing she does. Sounds like hatred to me.
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#183 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
You.can.not.be.serious.

You are condoning the radical, hateful comments of one pp and telling me I need to be more respectful with my posts because I am "unintentionally" offending others?

And trust me, I was not *getting back* at ANYONE. That is so junior high. I was making a "joke" - as in ha ha?

Guess what? I wasn't the only one laughing, or making a joke. Feel free to go back and attack someone else. Or am I an easier target because I'm arguing back?
Ummmm....I called EM on it too. She has stated that she was over-militant. I agree. I do not condone the behavior on either side.

And I did not pick YOU out specifically about the burger comments. You happened to be the one to write back that you thought it was "tough" that the known-to-be-offensive burger comments were stated.
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#184 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:13 PM
 
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HELLO????
GUYS, can we PLEASE get back on topic???


Frogs and children's unpredictable behavior?
Remember that?

Not veggie saurus vs meaty saurus.....

THANKS!
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#185 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:13 PM
 
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I see someone that made a comment to intentionally offend people in a snarky way.
Ummm, lots of other comments were made to intentionally offend people in a "snarky" way.

I don't see you calling them hateful.

And again - I reserve the word "hate" for something fairly serious. By me not taking your veganism as seriously as you do is hardly hateful.

I argue CIO (no CIO here) with friends who desperately believe in it - I would *never* call them hateful.

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#186 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:15 PM
 
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HELLO????
Sorry.

Back to the regular programming...

We were getting into it - totally inappropriate for the op and everyone else invested in the original conversation.

That last like, three pages should have been a pm. :

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#187 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
Ummm, lots of other comments were made to intentionally offend people in a "snarky" way.

I don't see you calling them hateful.

And again - I reserve the word "hate" for something fairly serious. By me not taking your veganism as seriously as you do is hardly hateful.

I argue CIO (no CIO here) with friends who desperately believe in it - I would *never* call them hateful.
I do not consider it hateful to not take veganism seriously if you do not believe in it. I do consider it hateful to intentionally be offensive to a group of people then refuse to see why it might be offensive.

I do not know you, I am sure you are not a hateful person. I am sure EM is not hateful. But comments have gone back and forth that are HURTFUL. EM acknowledged her hurtful comments. You OTOH refuse to see it.
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#188 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
Sorry.

Back to the regular programming...

We were getting into it - totally inappropriate for the op and everyone else invested in the original conversation.

That last like, three pages should have been a pm. :
I agree.

Digs stop now.

Sorry
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#189 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
You are condoning the radical, hateful comments of one pp and telling me I need to be more respectful with my posts because I am "unintentionally" offending others?
This might be where the misunderstanding is. If you read any of what I actually wrote- I was not condoning her at all. In fact just the opposite.
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#190 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:20 PM
 
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I do not know you, I am sure you are not a hateful person. I am sure EM is not hateful. But comments have gone back and forth that are HURTFUL. EM acknowledged her hurtful comments. You OTOH refuse to see it.
Just before I go, I would like to sincerely say that I am *very* sorry if my comments were hurtful to people that choose veganism.

It was not my intention to be mean about not eating meat. I have dabbled with the idea myself, and was more getting into the spirit of the argument, as opposed to really thinking about what I was saying.

Sorry guys.

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#191 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
It sounds like you are using your spirituality as a crutch.

And I don't appreciate the "hatred" comment.

.
Where did I make a hatred comment? Why do you keep putting words in my mouth?
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#192 of 256 Old 05-26-2005, 04:22 PM
 
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Did anyone else have a crush on Kermit as a kid?
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#193 of 256 Old 05-28-2005, 02:39 PM
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This thread is reopened for discussion. PLEASE do not post in a sarcastic or flippant manner or in a way to take personal issue with an individual member. Personal disagreements and words should go to PM. Inappropriate posting can be reported.

Please focus your posting on the topic. Disagree with respect and civil discussion. Members who post otherwise will be warned.

Peace mamas.

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#194 of 256 Old 05-28-2005, 04:56 PM
 
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The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the squished frogs in the driveway are a big part of this.
(And I'm so glad this thread is back! I've kinda been dwelling on this subject since the thread disappeared).
This little boy is seeing frogs in two very different states...the hopping around state, and the flattened in the driveway state.
He knows there's a transition between the two, and it does seem like running over the frog with his car it too dead-on symbolic play to be coincidence.
I really think you're going to have to give the frogs in the driveway a funeral to end this behavior immediately. Also, you're going to have to act sad. Beyond that, try to really be at least a little sad for these unfortunate frogs.
The story about the baby frogs missing their daddy frog would work well, but it's kind of a lie, as I don't think tadpoles really learn from their parents.
I don't know how you feel about lieing to kids to get a point across, but I'm usually opposed to it.
I think it's important that you explain that it hurts the frogs really, really bad when they get squished by your car, and it hurts when he squishes them.
As long as he gets the message that the frogs in the driveway don't matter, he's not going to "get it" that frogs have feelings and hurting them is wrong.

This issue is so complex, and really does open up a can of worms in regards to vegetarianism, etc. In fostering empathy for critters both big and small, you might very well be creating a future vegan.

Random thought, kinda off topic...Does anyone here remember that episode of the Andy Griffith Show...I think it was one of the first ones (maybe the first one ever?)...where Opey kills a bird with his BB gun?
He was, I think, 5 or 6ish. Very sad. I never thought of Opey as an animal abuser who needed to be in therapy and might grow up to commit acts of cannabilism...just a little kid who made a very bad, very sad mistake.

Sorry for the lack of cohesion in this post..lol...I've been thinking a lot about this for a few days.

Edited to add link:
http://www.tvacres.com/birds_backyard.htm
Opps. It was a slingshot, not a BB gun. Taking this post even farther OT (sorry)...I can help but notice that, for a show back in the day when physical punishment was the rule, this episode was also a perfect example of the power of natural consequences and gentle guidence. :
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#195 of 256 Old 05-28-2005, 05:11 PM
 
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wow, i've only had a chance to get to page 4, but did want to chime in.

my boys don't wantonly kill for the sake of killing (2 & 4), but they do know there is a bounty on flour moths, flies, mosquitos (i handle mice/rats.) yes, we eat meat. no, i don't think there is some hopeless contridiction between telling them not to hurt the worms & eating meat. life is from death. without getting into the whole vegetarian argument (bless the jainists for being consistant), when i move the straw pile for the garden, nests of mice die. raccoons get caught in the baler. minimizing unnecessary suffering (which sometimes, unpleasantly enough, is rescuing an injured animal & having the gonads to end its suffering) is all i can do.

life is messy, complicated, involves suffering. (and for the record, my toddler boys are the ones asking the neighbor girl to please release lightening bugs from the jar & stop molesting the butterflies. and hold the cat gently, just because it is too well-mannered to defend itself is no reason to drag it about. a 2 yr old can figure that out.)

good luck op; i don't think it's horribly unnatural (as someone who has removed the legs from a junebug to see it spin on its side), but i would be saddened & communicate that to my son. when you know better, you do better.

suse
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#196 of 256 Old 05-28-2005, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay
The story about the baby frogs missing their daddy frog would work well, but it's kind of a lie, as I don't think tadpoles really learn from their parents.
I don't know how you feel about lieing to kids to get a point across, but I'm usually opposed to it.
I've been thinking about this thread alot, and was kinda sad it was shut down before I could word my response, but it was basically going to be the above quote.

For me, it's important I teach my son biology and empathy and about the world in an accurate way so I wouldn't go the way of the daddy or mommy frog missing the baby frog. Frog's don't have families.

But I would talk about the frog as a living thing with the ability to feel pain. We just adopted a cat a week ago and DS (4.5), never having had a pet before, is learning how to be loving and playful while gentle with something other than human. We've been talking a lot about bullying around here (he's had some experience with being on the receiving end of that recently) and so use the concept of bullying when talking about the cat, or worms after a rain etc. DS seems to be getting this (fingers crossed). We've drawn a comparison between the way another boy has been treating him and the way he can follow the cat, not giving it space, tugging it's tail, hugging it too tightly etc and that just like G. is a bully sometimes, DS is being a bully to the cat or worms etc. This is curbing the behaviours.

Just an idea.
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#197 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 03:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
Produce is not an animal. The name "VEGan" implies that vegans eat vegetative products--not animal products. There is no cruelty in eating plant products. In fact, most plants benefit from having their fruits harvested or their growth pruned. It can be a symbiotic relationship for humans to eat plants (benefits plant and human), but it is a predatory relationship when humans eat/use animals.
I you sunmama. Symbiotic, not destructive. Exactly.

I cannot believe pple cannot differentiate b/t a frog and a plant, come on now...rationalize much?

Edamommy, your heart was in it, but I still feel like ya turn pple off on the approach...Not just you, but dar & the hamburger thing Disrespectful.


I just wanted to comment on OTF the "micromanage" comment...was a bit strange. I'd think you'd want to be by dc's while they explore the world...Just today, my dd let a bug crawl on her, she giggled so hard. She wanted it to get off after a bit, and was going to smash it down, when I stopped her and showed her how to gently return the bug.

My my dd is 2, ds is 8, dd 13 and never have they intentionally killed an animal, great or small.

People who kill have a power struggle going on in their heads...I think it needs to be addressed, but many people don't because they have become so comfortable with the disconnect of life...you buy the meat and never have to experience unpleasantness. That's a bunch of BS to me, and I'm gonna live my life avoiding causing the suffering of others.

P.S. Plants also have no CNS, making it impossible for them to feel pain.

I always love the "screams of the asparagus" rationalization from the carnis though.
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#198 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 04:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by USAmma
Would it help if you bought a similar creature such as a turtle or lizard and taught him to care for it as a family pet? Perhaps it would teach him compassion more than with random creatures he doesn't know. If you gave it a name he might realize that it has feelings, too.
Not sure I want to wade too far into this tangled thread, but I did want to comment that while I think USAmma's heart is in the right place with this suggestion, I want to STRONGLY discourage the OP from doing this--at least not without THOROUGHLY researching the needs (physical and psychological) of any animal before purchasing one as a companion.

Too many people purchase animals without realizing how complex (and expensive) it can be to adequately meet their needs. Turtles and reptiles are especially vulnerable to being neglected and/or abandoned, as few people are aware of exactly what it takes to care for them properly (and if they aren't being cared for optimally, what kind of message is that sending about compassion?).

One can learn about the needs of other creatures and develop empathy for them without owning them. Perhaps spending time at a shelter or sanctuary, or even just reading books about frogs or with frogs as characters would be a better first step towards exposing a child to the fact that these creatures have feelings and experience pain and need compassion and care.

If the OP does decide to get a reptile or turtle as a companion, there are often many available through rescue groups or shelters, because so very many are abandoned by their "guardians." Don't ever buy them from a pet shop or a breeder, please!

[/"pet rant"]

Last weekend at a local park, I saw a bunch of kids dragging a lizard along the sidewalk by a piece of string they had tied around its neck. I told them that they were likely to hurt or even kill it if they continued. What I wish I had said, in addition, was to ask them how they would like to be dragged down a hot sidewalk with a rope around their neck. A bit harsh, perhaps, but I think that when we see children hurting animals, we MUST find a way to ask them if they would want someone to do the same to them. The Golden Rule crosses species boundaries, IMO.
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#199 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 04:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
Just before I go, I would like to sincerely say that I am *very* sorry if my comments were hurtful to people that choose veganism.

It was not my intention to be mean about not eating meat. I have dabbled with the idea myself, and was more getting into the spirit of the argument, as opposed to really thinking about what I was saying.

Sorry guys.
Thank you for this. It was needed, and is appreciated.
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#200 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 04:50 AM
 
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Obviously the OP was really concerned about this...duh.. it would concern any mother.
I'm horrified that someone on the first page predicted this child's future like they did. THAT'S INTELLIGENTLY INHUMANE. or whatever the word is. how about showing a little compassion for your fellow human?
totally disgusting.
and for the record.. I spray painted a snake when I was younger... (and a lot older)... I think about this everyday and still feel bad about it. I don't really think I knew any better at this age... it was rebellious, and yes, inhumane, but kids do really strange things sometimes... not thinking about the consequences.
Don't curse yourself.
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#201 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mountain
I just wanted to comment on OTF the "micromanage" comment...was a bit strange. I'd think you'd want to be by dc's while they explore the world...Just today, my dd let a bug crawl on her, she giggled so hard. She wanted it to get off after a bit, and was going to smash it down, when I stopped her and showed her how to gently return the bug.
I have three children, 8, 4 and 3 and currently 9 months pregnant. I spend plenty of time with my children, however I want to give them plenty of time to explore on their own and play on their own. Maybe you find the comment a bit strange, but my 4 year old has been walking since he was 7m old, he is developmentally and cognitively advanced, he also has had behavior problems in the past (he takes medication and also has grown out of many) so that is why he has been "micro-managed" as my husband and I like to put it. I figure in our own, safe fenced backyard he can explore and play without being watched like a hawk.
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#202 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoesmummy
Just before I go, I would like to sincerely say that I am *very* sorry if my comments were hurtful to people that choose veganism.

It was not my intention to be mean about not eating meat. I have dabbled with the idea myself, and was more getting into the spirit of the argument, as opposed to really thinking about what I was saying.

Sorry guys.

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#203 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 05:21 PM
 
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I'm not about to read all 201 posts so I'm just going to reply to the OP. This kid seriously needs a psych eval to see if he's a sociopath. There not these scary guys you think live as hermits and go around killing people. They start off doing things like killing small animals for fun and it goes from there. There was a fantastic article in Psychology Today a few months ago called "The Ice Men" that describes sociopaths in detail and there actually 180 from what I thought! You should be able to find a back issue at your library.

Seriously?
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#204 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 06:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Satori
I'm not about to read all 201 posts so I'm just going to reply to the OP. This kid seriously needs a psych eval to see if he's a sociopath. .
Maybe you should have read the thread .
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#205 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 06:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mountain
I you sunmama. Symbiotic, not destructive. Exactly.
Oh, I'm so glad I got it right!

Esp since I am not a vegan, and was worried about misrepresenting the idea.

Do you still love me, now that you know I'm occasionally carnivorous?
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#206 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 06:24 PM
 
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see, that's what I'm talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OP... don't make this a self fulfilling prophesy for you. UGGGGGGGGGGGG........
whatever.
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#207 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 08:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Satori
This kid seriously needs a psych eval to see if he's a sociopath.
: Geez, you couldn't have found a gentler, supportive way to state your opinion?

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#208 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Satori
I'm not about to read all 201 posts so I'm just going to reply to the OP. This kid seriously needs a psych eval to see if he's a sociopath. There not these scary guys you think live as hermits and go around killing people. They start off doing things like killing small animals for fun and it goes from there. There was a fantastic article in Psychology Today a few months ago called "The Ice Men" that describes sociopaths in detail and there actually 180 from what I thought! You should be able to find a back issue at your library.
I can't believe you said this, you should have read the other 201 posts.
My son has been under the care of a child psychiatrist for 19 months. He IS NOT a sociopath, however he is bipolar -- and I might add he is stable. Not only that I HAVE DISCUSSED This with his psychiatrist who has been working with children for over 20 years and he has assured me that at four years old this is not sociopathic behavior, that my son has empathy, understands right from wrong, etc.

I wish this thread would have stayed closed because ignorance is running amuck on it.
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#209 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Moss's Mommy
see, that's what I'm talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OP... don't make this a self fulfilling prophesy for you. UGGGGGGGGGGGG........
whatever.
Yes, whatever.

See my above post.
This topic has come up many times in my real life dealings, and so far most people, while think its wrong what happened, say it falls under normal childhood behavior for a four year old. Plenty of males and females admitted to doing similar things as youngsters or sharing their children had done so -- noen are sociopaths or murderers.
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#210 of 256 Old 05-29-2005, 08:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence
I can't believe you said this, you should have read the other 201 posts.
My son has been under the care of a child psychiatrist for 19 months. He IS NOT a sociopath, however he is bipolar -- and I might add he is stable. Not only that I HAVE DISCUSSED This with his psychiatrist who has been working with children for over 20 years and he has assured me that at four years old this is not sociopathic behavior, that my son has empathy, understands right from wrong, etc.

I wish this thread would have stayed closed because ignorance is running amuck on it.
I'm sorry, I don't believe you mentioned this stuff in the OP and I did not realize this was YOUR child but thought it was a child in your care. I was basing my thoughts off of what you wrote. You might have time to read 200+ posts and explain things through out but I don't have that kind of time online. Sorry I bothered to offer my thoughts.

Seriously?
Satori is offline  
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