Kids playing with and wasting food + Meal and snack scheduling discussion - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

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#301 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
I beleive that these methods help preserve family meals, something that is important to me. That is why I use them. When I read about everyone in a famliy grabbing there own food and rarely sitting down to eat together it makes me sad.
Family togetherness time is very important to me too. So instead of having a scheduled dinnertime (we sometimes have dinner together, sometimes not) we have a "family together time" in the evenings when DH isn't working. We all kick back as a family together and either go outside and play or chat inside, whatever we feel like.

I feel togetherness is important, but unfortunately to use family dinners as that time forces everyone to eat on a schedule... and people don't get hungry on schedules.



I'm still curious about why Satter places emphasis on SCHEDULED eating times rather than children eating when they're hungry. Why does she feel this is healthy? Is the idea that you offer food so often you're going to catch the window of hungriness no matter what?

Also, on reading her web site, she says parents determine the "what" and "when". What do you do if one of your children wants to eat, say, cheese and crackers, or a chocolate bar for a snack, but you have scheduled grapes for them to eat? What happens? Do you tell them no, you can eat the grapes or else wait for dinner?

Just curious how this works...
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#302 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
Why do you assume family meal time is impossible if you do not control food? We eat lunch and dinner as a family every day. Usually dd eats what is served during the meal. Soemtimes she does not like it and I serve her something else, but we are still eating food together. And even more rarely she does not want to eat at all. Sometimes I do not want to eat at all (like when I am sick) but we still gather as a family during that time.

Not impossible but harder.

If i had to jump up to make something else, the family meal would lose its rythym. We have wondeful discussions at meal times.

And my kids don't request something else. They just don't. I dont' pay much attention to whether they eat something or not. It is up to them.

And of course things change when someone is sick. As with any household routine, then all bets are off!
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#303 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:27 AM
 
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Maya - After all of your explainging, it sounds much different than the "I serve the dinner and the kids can eat it or not but that is it" attitude that your opening post leaned towards. It sounds like you are just trying to find a meal method that works for your family and it does not sound "abusive". But I do find the statement:

"Parents decide what and when and kids decide if and how much"

to be abusive. You might decide the what and when is a large selection and often. But the statement in and of itself implies that whatever a parent decides should be acceptable to all kids. And I just do not understand why the kid cannot decide what and when and if AND how much. I mean why? Is it because people fear that will lead to an unhealthy outlook on food? Is it because it is too much work or waste or a not-balanced-diet? It might be working great for your kids now, but what would you do IF that changed? What would you do if one of your kids did not want anything on the table but was still hungry? Why is ti not OK to let them use thier own body equipment to determine what and when they should eat in addition to if and how much?
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#304 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KristiMetz
I'm still curious about why Satter places emphasis on SCHEDULED eating times rather than children eating when they're hungry. Why does she feel this is healthy? Is the idea that you offer food so often you're going to catch the window of hungriness no matter what?

Also, on reading her web site, she says parents determine the "what" and "when". What do you do if one of your children wants to eat, say, cheese and crackers, or a chocolate bar for a snack, but you have scheduled grapes for them to eat? What happens? Do you tell them no, you can eat the grapes or else wait for dinner?

Just curious how this works...

Yes, there is no chance to go hungry. If kids are really hungry between scheduled meals and snacks, she says to add another scheduled snack to the day.


As for snacks, the idea is (in working with her institute) to have a LONG list of possible snacks. The list is made by the parent, but the child certainly has input into ideas. We have an actual list of thirty or so items. Candy is not on the list (its a dessert) but veggies, cheese and crackers, fruits, deli meats etc all are. A child can choose anything from the list.


My dd's have almost never left a table hungry. Maybe a few times in their lives (they are 11, 9 and 8). And between dessert and the knowledge that a snack is coming it just did not upset them. They have occassionally not found anything to eat at their grandmother's house (ugh bad cook!). But this does not upset them because they knew that they could survive this easily.
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#305 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
I honestly think it was my way of having some control...
AND it is not that way for many people, I know.
Well, I think that your food aversions may not happen to a lot of people, but having neurotic food habits as an adult (in reaction to food being very controlled as a child) seems very common.

Food is nourishment. It is not love, but it is nourishment that we need. To have control over that taken away, and to be told what nourishment we need and when, is what causes us to doubt the ability of our bodies to tell us what we need to eat.
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#306 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
Not impossible but harder.

If i had to jump up to make something else, the family meal would lose its rythym. We have wondeful discussions at meal times.
I get that. It can be disruptive. I guess since my kid is still little I am already getting up a million times no matter what. Things spill at almost every meal and I need a rag. Or dh wants salt and I forgot to put it on the table. Or I run out of water and want more. Grabbing a handful of grapes to run under the tap or popping a can of refried beans for dd is about the same to me and I do not even think about it. And the kitchen is right next the to dining room so the converstaion keeps going and it does not seem disruptive to me.
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#307 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:41 AM
 
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Maya I am not challenging whether this works in your family. There are many choices outside of GD and most families prefer them.

Your SIL was already in a power struggle over food. She was losing.

With this approach, she won the power struggle.

Neither approach has anything to do with GD.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#308 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:41 AM
 
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That's right. Satter is the one I don't like.
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#309 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
I get that. It can be disruptive. I guess since my kid is still little I am already getting up a million times no matter what. Things spill at almost every meal and I need a rag. Or dh wants salt and I forgot to put it on the table. Or I run out of water and want more. Grabbing a handful of grapes to run under the tap or popping a can of refried beans for dd is about the same to me and I do not even think about it. And the kitchen is right next the to dining room so the converstaion keeps going and it does not seem disruptive to me.
Family meals are SO important to me, that this just does not happen. We place big jugs of water on the table. Rags are in a drawer inside the table for spills. IIts a farm style table with drawers at either end.) Condiments are placed on the table as a part of meals. I have an actual check list I go thorough.

Once we sit, I dont' want to get up!
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#310 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 11:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by heartmama
Maya I am not challenging whether this works in your family. There are many choices outside of GD and most families prefer them.

Your SIL was already in a power struggle over food. She was losing.

With this approach, she won the power struggle.

Neither approach has anything to do with GD.

I am not sure what you mean. Her main problem was that she was asking her kids to eat. They were refusing. You are right that there was a power struggle.

Using Satter's methods, she put a wide variety of foods on the table and then just did not worry about whether her kids ate or not. This not trying hard to have a chld to eat more is a very key part of the Satter approach. What really worked for her. And what she was afraid to do before using this approach.

They started eating. They did not ask for anything else, since there was so much there that they liked.

They were not hungry between all the meals and snacks. I am sure she would not have "stuck" to Satter's idea of telling a child to wait, but it never came up for her.

For her the power struggle was simply gone. NOt won.

How do you figure that she "won"??????
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#311 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 12:45 PM
 
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maya - I'm still wondering about the "why" behind rigorously scheduling snacks and mealtimes.

If the child is hungry and it's not "snack time", why not just feed them? Why "add a scheduled snack time"?

What is the purpose behind the scheduling?

Also, when your child is an adult, and it's "time to eat" but they aren't hungry, do you think they'll still prepare a meal and eat at least part of it, because meals are at "certain times"? Or do you think they'll have the attunement to their own signals to simply not eat because they're not hungry, even though it's the traditional meal time?
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#312 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 12:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
But I do find the statement:

"Parents decide what and when and kids decide if and how much"

to be abusive.
Abusive of what? Actually abusive of a child or a parent abusing their power over their child? I could see where you might think the latter (even though I don't agree) but I would completely fail to understand if you actually thought that a child with ample access to a wide variety of food was being abused simply because that child didn't choose the food.

Namaste!
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#313 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 12:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
Abusive of what? Actually abusive of a child or a parent abusing their power over their child? I could see where you might think the latter (even though I don't agree) but I would completely fail to understand if you actually thought that a child with ample access to a wide variety of food was being abused simply because that child didn't choose the food.

Namaste!
Because the statement by itself implies that parents should have total control with food. Yes, people here are stating that they follow this quote but choose to offer a wide variety at frequent intervals. But someone else could interpret this to mean they can choose whatever "when" and "what" they want and kids only should have say over the "if" and "how much". That is why I find it abusive without adding a paragraph of other qualifiers.

I simply do not understand why it is a bad thing to let the child have control over all 4 items. You could provide 15 choices to a child and have a chance they do not want one of them that day. And a kid might be hungry at 9:15 even though snack time is at 9:30. Why does it matter that he/she wait? I just do not get it. And I think that making a child be hungry for any amount of time (even if it is 15 minutes) is totally unnecessary and could even be abusive if it happened regularly.

I understand wanting to make things easier. I understand wanting meal time to be peaceful. I understand wanting to condition kids so they know not to "ask" because they know "the rules". But I think that allowing a child to have control over all 4 items can still fit within a peaceful and easy meal situation. Dd rarely (maybe once a week) asks for something different for a meal. Even more rarely refuses to eat. I do not think getting out of my chair once a week to grab something fast and easy is enough of a disruption to risk messing with dd's feelings about food.
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#314 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 01:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KristiMetz
maya - I'm still wondering about the "why" behind rigorously scheduling snacks and mealtimes.

If the child is hungry and it's not "snack time", why not just feed them? Why "add a scheduled snack time"?

What is the purpose behind the scheduling?

Also, when your child is an adult, and it's "time to eat" but they aren't hungry, do you think they'll still prepare a meal and eat at least part of it, because meals are at "certain times"? Or do you think they'll have the attunement to their own signals to simply not eat because they're not hungry, even though it's the traditional meal time?

The purpose is to encourge meal eating, as opposed to ONLY snacking.
To encourage family sit down dinners.

Satter's extensive research shows that children do better nutritionally and emotionally with food than with many other approaches including handing out food without any thought to the upcomming meal.

I have read many of her studies. It made sense to me.

Under Satter's approach as children age and especially as they enter the teen years, scheduling the 'when' gradually shifts for them to decide.

My 11 y.o. has already started this process, she chooses the times of her snacks. But based on her own eating temprement, she often does not have them al all. 01
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#315 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 01:11 PM
 
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Hm.. Seems like we are headed down a very well worn path with many of the same players. Maybe we could just post a link to the last 20 page thread on this here and be done with it? That said ...


I am equally uncomfortable with the idea of letting children eat whatever, whenever and never preparing or participating in family meals. Children in that sort of household might or might not have a healthy relationship with food and their body signals, but I would be really worried about the family ties and associations they would miss. Not to mention how such a child would handle visits to other, less free, homes and entering "the real world" of more rigid schedules at some point.

I think there is a healthy, happy middle ground here. For us, this means reasonably healthy snacks freely available during the day, ALONG WITH family breakfast and dinner (lunch is with school or work family). It is perfectly possible to find and manage this sort of middle ground. Admittedly, I'm biased because this has worked for us, so I think its the perfect solution. :-) Seriously though, I think extremes are dangerous and don't meet all the complex needs of a family. Find a middle ground that meets as many needs as possible and then work with that. This is,of course, more work than either extreme, but worth it in the end. But then, isn't that true of many of the parenting practices we at MDC support -- more work but woth it?
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#316 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 01:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
Dd rarely (maybe once a week) asks for something different for a meal. Even more rarely refuses to eat. I do not think getting out of my chair once a week to grab something fast and easy is enough of a disruption to risk messing with dd's feelings about food.
First let me say that I appreciate your taking the time to answer.

Second, I consider you lucky (or, more accurately, karmically blessed) that your child seems so content with meals. My kids, and my daughter in particular, regularly, and by that I mean like almost every meal, no exaggeration, ask me "What are we having?" and when I tell them, they reply with "Yuck!" Even if it's her most favoritest thing in the whole world. Even if, five minutes ago when I asked her what she wanted to eat, that's what she told me. My daughter regularly tells me, "I want oatmeal!" and then, when the oatmeal is ready, says, "Yuck! I don't want that!" Some kids are just like that. My son does it because my daughter does, and my son, whom we call "Monkey-do," as in "Monkey see, Monkey do," wants to do exactly what my daughter does. For me, that's a large part of the reason that I basically tell my kids, eat what you are served. I plan the menu at the beginning of the week. My kids help me pick the meals, my kids help me decide which of the meals from the menu we will eat that day, my kids help me with the shopping and the meal prep (when they want to, which is not often, they'd rather make their own "meals" in their little kitchen while I am cooking in the big kitchen), and my kids still tell me "Yuck" when it's time to eat. But, oddly enough, when the food is put on the table, they usually eat it all! Sometimes they pick out things they don't like and eat the rest. Occasionally, they don't eat what's served and I offer them a PB&J instead. Sometimes they don't want that and they just don't eat. I guess they are not hungry in those instances. My kids have a lot of freedom in deciding their meals; breakfast and lunch, they choose. Snacks, I make those up in the morning when I am making my dh's lunch and I put them on the kids' shelf in the fridge. I serve three "Momma-scheduled" snacks a day (which the kids choose) and if they are hungry at other times, they get their own snacks from their snack shelf. They know in advance what's for dinner, and it's a meal that they have helped plan at the beginning of the week. It's something they like, because I don't serve meals that I know my kids don't like. I think that amount of their having control over what they eat is more than adequate! It's the same amount I have. Sometimes, when it's burrito night, I don't feel like eating burritos. But that's what I bought the ingredients for, so that's what we eat. We don't have enough money, nor do I have the time or inclination, nor do I believe it's necessary to, make four separate dinners for the four (soon to be five) separate people in our house based on their current whims, and I also think that allowing kids to dismiss the family meal with a figurative wave of the hand and choose something else just because that's what their whim is right now encourages a fickle attitude toward food. I think it engenders ungratefulness to have a full plate of food in front of you and to turn up your nose at it just because you'd prefer something different at the time. No choking food down here, as what I offer my kids are things they like, not things they detest.

I guess in some ways my Buddhist faith plays into things, too. Once, at the Dharma Center, we were talking about how highly realized lamas don't let their desires control their lives and emotional state and one of our lay leaders made the point that when monks come to teach in America, they eat what they are given by the sangha members. A monk may prefer (for example) tsampa, a traditional Tibetan food. It may be what he desires right now. But he gratefully eats what he is given and does not let his preferences and desires run away with him and make him unhappy about his meal. Also, when our teacher, His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche, was visiting last month, I noticed that when he was given a strawberry, he ate the entire strawberry, leaves and all. No waste. I was very impressed. That type of practice is available to all of us, not just to the highly realized, and I think that teaching children from the start that their transitory desires shouldn't rule their lives and that we should show gratefulness for our abundance by not being fickle and wasteful is a very good start on the road to enlightenment.

I'm not, obviously, trying to convince you I'm right. I'm just explaining where I come from. I think different things work for different families, and I don't like how the tone on this thread has sometimes been that those of us who don't follow some pre-determined AP/GD model of feeding our kids are somehow abusing or disrespectful of our kids. I think that there are many ways to cultivate a healthy relationship with food, and I appreciate a discussion about all those ways, not a dogmatic defense of the one right way (and I am not accusing you of doing that, but that often happens here at MDC).

Sorry, I got carried away with this post!

Namaste!
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#317 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 03:54 PM
 
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I am uncomfortable with you comparing this approach to that of someone who beats their kids. If a child does not complain because they fear reprisals, that is not a true "non complaint"

Here you are free to complain. There is no punishment in my house. Everyone is free to speak their mind. So a lack of complaining means something completely very very different and indicates a true lack of being bothered by a way of family operation.
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#318 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 07:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
Family meals are SO important to me.

Once we sit, I dont' want to get up!

This sounds so very controlling. Why are they so important? Why do you not want to get up? Why is this such a trigger? Are there deeper issues here?

Maybe some people just HAVE to have one area of their children's lives they control absolutely, and that allows them to be more relaxed about other things?

I have friends who are just nutty about bedtimes. When it's seven thirty, the entire world screeches to a halt, and they will not bend the rule for any reason, period. They have all kinds of theories as to why this is best for their children, but it seems to me that really, they just need to feel in total control of this one issue.

The admin assistant in my husband's department has this thing with photocopy paper, too. The entire office can be going wild, but don't anyone dare touch that paper. It is her one thing she controls absolutely.

Just a thought.
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#319 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 07:32 PM
 
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I do not like the turn that this thread is now taking.
Rule one from the UA:
1.Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.


It is one thing to disagree with how someone decides to serve meals in ones home, it is quite another to compare them to known child abusers. I am going to ask everyone to please stay on topic and refrain from comparing and insinuating things about others.

We may not have it all together, but together we have it all
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#320 of 432 Old 08-16-2005, 07:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LauraSusan
Why are they so important? Why do you not want to get up?

Family meals are a joy in our house. A time for discussion and communication. A time to talk about our day and our world.

We have a busy family. This is our time together. Plus, I have wonderful memories of family meals in my own home.

My dd's are simply used to sitting down to a family meal. They know no one is going to moniter what they eat. If they don't like something they know they dont' have to eat it. They know that I will make sure that there is something on the table they like. It has never occurred to them to ask for anything else, (apparently because they have never done so) just like it never occurred to me.

As for not wanting to get up its becaue, I don't like to "hop up" generally during meals and also because I think it interupts the flow of our family discussion.
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#321 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 09:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
Family meals are a joy in our house. A time for discussion and communication. A time to talk about our day and our world.
I agree. I watch Leave it to Beaver and this is always the scene at their house. I use to say "I wish I could be like June"
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#322 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 09:59 AM
 
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I cook dinner 6 nights a week (Fr is pizza night) and we all sit down together, but I don't control food.
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#323 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 11:34 AM
 
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I cook dinner 6 nights a week (Fr is pizza night) and we all sit down together, but I don't control food.
True. This works for us as well- they serve themselves, I always serve something they like, desert is not tied into what you eat, I offer snacks regularly, but if they want an apple or something and it's not "time" they are welcome to an apple.

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#324 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 12:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
As for not wanting to get up its becaue, I don't like to "hop up" generally during meals and also because I think it interupts the flow of our family discussion.
Well, I can relate to that at least. My MIL will fix a huge meal and sit down with her boys and husband to eat.. then they send her fetching after stuff the whole damn meal! : Get it yourself, you are grown men!
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#325 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 12:39 PM
 
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Here you are free to complain. There is no punishment in my house. Everyone is free to speak their mind. So a lack of complaining means something completely very very different and indicates a true lack of being bothered by a way of family operation.
Maya - You (and Ellyn Satter) describe your eating strategy as "I decide the what and when, and they decide if and how much".

I've been giving this some thought and based on your comments, I think your strategy would be more accurately described like this :

"I decide the when. My kids decide if and how much, and within reason, what."

I'm basing this on your comments that your children help you plan your meals and snack options, and that you always have something available at meals and snacks that they like.

Someone who truly decides the "what" might plop down brussels sprouts on the table (ewww) and say "That's what we're having - eat it or go hungry." I don't think that's what you do, am I correct?

So, I think your philosophy around eating is more gentle and less extreme that it initially sounded. I can't say I totally agree with it (I believe listening to hunger cues and then determining to eat based on that is the way to go), or that it's a solution I believe would work for my family, but it's a much more reasonable philosophy than the quote than that quote from Satter indicates.
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#326 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 03:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KristiMetz
Maya - You (and Ellyn Satter) describe your eating strategy as "I decide the what and when, and they decide if and how much".

I've been giving this some thought and based on your comments, I think your strategy would be more accurately described like this :

"I decide the when. My kids decide if and how much, and within reason, what."

I'm basing this on your comments that your children help you plan your meals and snack options, and that you always have something available at meals and snacks that they like.

Someone who truly decides the "what" might plop down brussels sprouts on the table (ewww) and say "That's what we're having - eat it or go hungry." I don't think that's what you do, am I correct?

So, I think your philosophy around eating is more gentle and less extreme that it initially sounded. I can't say I totally agree with it (I believe listening to hunger cues and then determining to eat based on that is the way to go), or that it's a solution I believe would work for my family, but it's a much more reasonable philosophy than the quote than that quote from Satter indicates.

Yes, one important part of the Satter approach is that there is ALWAYS something on the table that everyone likes. And it should be something fairly filling (bread, rice, potatoes). So if brussel sprouts are on the table (which all three would say eww about, but which my dh likes, we'd proabaly have a favorite salad that night on the table too so they could get their veggies that way)

And my dd's are definitely involved in meal planning. However with three kids they are each only getting big input into one day per week, but I do make sure that each of them has something on the table that they really like.

For example, last night was dd 2's meal plan which was worked out with me last Sunday. It was: Fillet Mignon, Baked Potato with cheese, sour cream and chives on the side, Cesar Salad, Creamed Spinach.

Now dd 1 does not really like Fillet. She had a baked potato filled with spinach and cheese and a Ceasar Salad. DD2 had suggested oven baked fries when we planned, but I decied that baked would be better because DD1 likes those much better and leads to a more nutritious meal for her. DD3 is not really into creamed spinanch and she does not love baked potatoes, but does not mind them either. She has about 3 helping of Fillet, A big salad and about 1/2 a potato with sour cream.

[I was paying more attention than usual because of this thread].

For dessert, I had baked "chocolate chip cookies as big as your head" Well they are not really THAT big, but that is what we call them!

Our discussion topic last night was "What do you think your teacher will be like for this comming year, and what are you most worried about"
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#327 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 03:15 PM
 
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Wow, nine pages! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with food issues! :LOL
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#328 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
For example, last night was dd 2's meal plan which was worked out with me last Sunday. It was: Fillet Mignon, Baked Potato with cheese, sour cream and chives on the side, Cesar Salad, Creamed Spinach.
Wow, Maya, will you come cook at my house? :LOL Sounds like a delicious meal, and puts to shame most of the meals I prepare!! (And up until now I was so proud of my meals.) I think your approach to meals makes complete sense. Our approach to meals is similar in that we always make sure that there is a food on the table that each person likes so that if they don't like one thing there are still other things they do like (sometimes the kids pick what to cook for some meals when we're planning for the week, other times I pick all meals with their tastes in mind). This way we're preparing only one meal but everyone has something healthy and yummy to eat-they decide how much they'll eat of which things. We never have struggles over food. We always eat together, and it's always a very enjoyable time for the whole family. No one feels forced or controlled, everyone leaves the table satisfied.
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#329 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 05:26 PM
 
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Wow, Maya, will you come cook at my house? :

:LOL

Tonight is Teryiaki Turkey Breast, Rice with Mushrooms, Asparagus and Chopped Salad (Tomatoes, Cucumbers, Corn and Avacado), Berry Salad (Rasberries, blueberries, strawberries)


DD 3 will prob only eat the chopped salad and the fruit salad, (though last time we had the Teryiaki Turkey Breast she mentioned that it "smelled good" but was "not ready to try it yet" so you never know. But believe me she won't be "hysterical" and won't be "starving." She'll be too excited about and too full from her favorite dessert: Carmel Apple Pie, which just come out of my oven!
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#330 of 432 Old 08-17-2005, 05:48 PM
 
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I agree can you please come and cook for us, maybe my boys would eat more! CARMEL APPLE PIE!!! Please feel free to PM me the directions to making this for my apple pie loving dh!

We may not have it all together, but together we have it all
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