Anyone NOT gettting a Social Security Number for their children? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am planning an unassisted homebirth later this year, for many reasons. One of them is that I don't agree with all the government bull, and I want to avoid arguements about by decisions to delay or not vaccinate, and not to have a Social Security Number assigned to my child. As I'm sure some or most of you know, participation in Social Security is not a requirement, legally. You are automatically assigned a number at birth, and most people just sign the paperwork, and don't think to argue. Once you have that number, it is near impossible to expunge if you later want out of the system. But some people decide not to get the number for their children at birth (You can always get one later, anyway). Hospitals make this VERY difficult. Many of them will bully you and try to con you into believeing that is is mandatory.
Anyway, to the point. I am not getting a SS number for my DC, and I wondered how many others of you chose not to get a SSN? Have you had difficulty getting insurance coverage or anything? Again, it's not a legal requirement to have a SSN, but I've heard some insurance companies simply don't know that, and they make you go through hell to get coverage.
Also, I hear you cannot claim your child on your tax returns if that child has no number. Is this so? If it is, it's bullshit, but I digress....

Are there any freedom-loving mamas out there who can offer me some support, advice, or horror stories related to this stuff? Thanks.

***edited*** After a lot of research into this topic, I thought i'd post a bit on info I found. No, you cannot claim a child for a tax exemption without that child having a SSN. You can claim a child if they get an ITIN (individual tax id number), BUT you cannot get an ITIN unless you are unelligible for a SSN. It's a loophole designed to force people to get their child enumerated. If, like me, you still refuse to get a SSN for your child at birth, here is a site by a man who details life without a SSN. He has been able to easily get a lease, utilities, insurance, even a passport, all without a SSN... and without having to sue anyone for his rights.
His site is: http://www.cjmciver.org/free.shtml

Also, for those who may want to know, you CAN have your child's application for a SSN destroyed after the fact IF if was applied for without your consent or knowledge, or if you were mistakenly told that it is required... and IF the number has NEVER been used (including for tax exemptions). My child was given a SSN throught the government's "enumeration at birth program" when she had to be born in the hospital (she was five weeks preterm). I ticked "no" to the SSN application, but the hospital "accidentally" ticked yes for me later. The Social Security Administration does have a policy to delete SSN accounts in these cases. PM me if you want the address for the central office where you have to write to start the process. You will return the SSN card and the process takes months... but it is possible.
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#2 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 02:35 PM
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I thought you had to have a number in order to file for your child deduction on your taxes. I honestly don't know what the legal implications for that are. I know that, in order to work in the US, your child will eventually need to get a SSN, but don't know about any of the other. I, honestly, don't even know what my opinion is about it.

I'll definitely be paying attention to this thread, though.


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#3 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 02:59 PM
 
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You definitely need it for tax reasons...we put the wrong number once on our return (totally an accident) last year and the govt wanted the deduction back from us - we were charged for the full amount and neglecting to pay all of our taxes. Apparently I gave them the number of a 97-year old woman in the Bronx, recently deceased. We called and straightened it out with the correct number, but it still took a while for everything to be cleared off. The IRS lady said you needed to have a number; and then have the correct number in order to claim a deduction or EIC credit.

http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq-kw175.html :
My daughter was born at the end of the year. We are still waiting for a social security number. Can I send in my return and later supply the social security number for her?

If you file your return claiming your daughter as a dependent and do not provide her social security number on the return, the dependent exemption will be disallowed. You have two options. You could file your income tax return without claiming your daughter as a dependent. After you receive her social security number, you could then amend your return on Form 1040X (PDF), Amended U.S. Individual Income Tax Return . You have three years from the later of the due date of the return or from the date the return was filed to amend the return.
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#4 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 03:03 PM
 
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We played with the idea briefly, but yes, you can NOT take your child as a deduction without a #, so money won over for us on this one. We got the # and our $...

-Angela
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#5 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, my DH decided that if that's the case, we simply will not get the tax refund. Bummer, but oh, well.
And you can work in the US without a SSN; the difficult thing is to find an employer who will hire you. Some employers don't pay taxes anyway (since they're unconstititional), but that's a whole other pickle....
Egads, I bet I just opened a whole other can of worms.... If anyone is so inclined, you can find plenty on info on the subject on income taxes neing unconstitutional by doing a search. Or renting "The Truth About the Income Tax."
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#6 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 03:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolynrosa
Well, my DH decided that if that's the case, we simply will not get the tax refund. Bummer, but oh, well.
And you can work in the US without a SSN; the difficult thing is to find an employer who will hire you. Some employers don't pay taxes anyway (since they're unconstititional), but that's a whole other pickle....
Egads, I bet I just opened a whole other can of worms.... If anyone is so inclined, you can find plenty on info on the subject on income taxes neing unconstitutional by doing a search. Or renting "The Truth About the Income Tax."
Just curious, but how far into your child's future are you looking?

You're already content with letting him/her fight like hell to even find a job cause he/she has no number, and even then, he/she might not have the choice to even file taxes?

I wouldn't be surprised if once your child became an adult, he/she tries to get a SS# anyway, because life can't be all that easy without one...

I agree, that sucks, but I wouldn't want to purposefully make things that hard for my child... JMO.
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#7 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have looked into the future, that's why I'm doing this.

If she wants a SSN in the future, it's a very simple process. The government makes it VERY easy to sign up for their slave numbers, believe me.

Is no one here aware of how our SSN are being used as a national ID these days? It's even required for a driver's licence- even though that is illegal.

When the Social Security Administration first introduced the SSN, they promised it would not even be used as an ID number.... now it's used specifically as an ID number everywhere!
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#8 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 03:56 PM
 
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I could see serious red tape with colleges, and major challenges applying for financial aid, etc as well. Unless they're planning on living off of the grid their whole lives I would imagine many obstacles ahead...

I'm curious to see if anyone has done this and how it's gone :

Mama to DS (8) and DD (7) Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement.

 

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#9 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 03:58 PM
 
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Wow... all I have to say is that it's pretty presumptuous of you to assume that your child will want to live his/her life completely off the grid until he/she dies, hopefully at a ripe old age. At some point, they have to have a SSN if they ever want to be part of society. He/she will never get health insurance of any sort, be able to file his/her OWN taxes, get a job or even make a living at all since there isn't a job in the world that works on a cash-only basis, apply for credit, or go to college (I'm assuming lower school is not an issue here, as you will obviously un or home school). It also means your child can never travel outside the country, which seems (to me anyway) a great way of enlightenment. He/she will never be able to really do much of anything but stay at home. If that is your intention, then it seems you've figured out a way to never have an empty nest. There are better ways of fighting the establishment. Using your child as the tool seems foolish to me. My opinion, but... there it is.

BTW - I cannot even IMAGINE the kind of mess you might make for your child if he/she goes 18 years without a social security number, then wants to apply. 18 years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if he/she weren't just chucked into some military prison for that. To be 18 and just NOW applying for a SSN???? These are the kinds of things our paranoid government are just fishing for. Like I said, if you have a beef with the administration, with the establishment, with government... do your own fighting, don't make your kid an instrument. (P.S. I don't like big government, either.)
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#10 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 03:59 PM
 
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I didn't have a social security number until I was 14. I only got one then because I wanted to get a summer job. I don't know why my parents didn't get one for me; my mom says she really doesn't remember.

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#11 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:01 PM
 
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velochic - credit and passports for travel...two good points I hadn't thought of....I think renting an apartment (even if you didn't want to buy a house some day and needed a mortgage) would be impossible as well...

Mama to DS (8) and DD (7) Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement.

 

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#12 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolynrosa
I have looked into the future, that's why I'm doing this.

If she wants a SSN in the future, it's a very simple process. The government makes it VERY easy to sign up for their slave numbers, believe me.

Is no one here aware of how our SSN are being used as a national ID these days? It's even required for a driver's licence- even though that is illegal.

When the Social Security Administration first introduced the SSN, they promised it would not even be used as an ID number.... now it's used specifically as an ID number everywhere!

Move to Canada... they call it a health care number (or some such name... help me out friends to the North)... would that make you feel better? Or better yet... move to my old nation of choice... GERMANY... where you have to register your address with the national database every time you move. Oh.... better yet... Russia... used to live there. You have to have your national I.D. card on you at all times.

Just out of curiosity... how do you have your internet connection? Did you just tell them that you'd take in cash payments every month and that you don't disclose your name or any personal information?
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#13 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by llyra
I didn't have a social security number until I was 14. I only got one then because I wanted to get a summer job. I don't know why my parents didn't get one for me; my mom says she really doesn't remember.
I was 12-ish when my parents got me one; I think it was around then that they started requiring it for tax deductions. Things are different now!

At any rate, please ensure that you have the documentation your child will need to get his or her number- a legal birth certificate or whatever. He or she will have a really hard time getting a job without one (most people don't want to work under the table their whole lives) and should be able to make his or her own choice when it's necessary. If you do not have legal documentation of the kid's existence, they may assume he or she is an illegal alien.

At my hospital birth, they gave us the forms for the SS# and we mailed them in ourselves. This may have been because we were leaving early (four hours after birth) but they didn't make it a big deal, at any rate.

Sorry you're being attacked; I don't know why this topic is making people so angry....
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#14 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:17 PM
 
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We got our son's number when he was born but we have shared it with no one (except on our tax return). Our health insurance company does not require it and assigns their own ID numbers.

We've never given his SSN to the doctor's office, either. Our life insurance company says they need it to add him as a beneficiary but that's bull and we're fighting it.

I've been a victim of ID theft three separate times. Not related to each other and I am extra careful with my own information. The first time I don't know how they got my information. The second time I got the letter from Lexis Nexis that my information may have been hacked and the third time I know I was part of the stolen cc numbers from the data processor (for American Express).

It's awful to go through and we won't give out his number to anyone. But, I'm glad we got him a number because he will eventually need one and it will be his choice how to use it.
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#15 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:21 PM
 
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I'm sorry you feel that way about the goverment (heck we all have our hang ups about'em) but the bottom line is you can't *live* withOUT a SS#.

When I lost my purse, it had my whole identity in there (Driver's License, SS# etc) and I couldnt' replace one without the other. Talk about feeling lost and hopeless. It's a nightmare.

I didn't know it was legal to deny a social security number though.

And I'm still not sure of *your* reasoning to not get one for your child.
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#16 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic
Wow... all I have to say is that it's pretty presumptuous of you to assume that your child will want to live his/her life completely off the grid until he/she dies, hopefully at a ripe old age. At some point, they have to have a SSN if they ever want to be part of society. He/she will never get health insurance of any sort, be able to file his/her OWN taxes, get a job or even make a living at all since there isn't a job in the world that works on a cash-only basis, apply for credit, or go to college (I'm assuming lower school is not an issue here, as you will obviously un or home school). It also means your child can never travel outside the country, which seems (to me anyway) a great way of enlightenment. He/she will never be able to really do much of anything but stay at home. If that is your intention, then it seems you've figured out a way to never have an empty nest. There are better ways of fighting the establishment. Using your child as the tool seems foolish to me. My opinion, but... there it is.

BTW - I cannot even IMAGINE the kind of mess you might make for your child if he/she goes 18 years without a social security number, then wants to apply. 18 years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if he/she weren't just chucked into some military prison for that. To be 18 and just NOW applying for a SSN???? These are the kinds of things our paranoid government are just fishing for. Like I said, if you have a beef with the administration, with the establishment, with government... do your own fighting, don't make your kid an instrument. (P.S. I don't like big government, either.)
What's presumptuous is to assume that my child will WANT to be hooked into the grid from birth in the first place. It's a lot easier to hook yourself in than it is to ever get yourself out. At least she has a choice this way -- how could you possibly consider it presumptuous to give her the choice and not presumptuous to plug her in for life?

I think it's amazing that even in an open, alternative group such as this, that simply asking advice about something that some may disagree with gets you attacked by people afraid to stand up to the government they claim to dislike, even when they know the government is wrong.

You sound like any other fear mongering government minion out there trying to make people feel guilty for standing up for themselves. Would you DARE raise a Christian child in a muslim-extremist world? How DARE you use your child to make a religious point in a place that shuns christianity?!! How irresponsible and selfish of you to be so presumptuous! How do you know that your child will even WANT to be Christian?

Back-off, thank you very much.

I'm not here to make enemies. If I wanted to do that I'd ask the Social Security Administration.
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#17 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:28 PM
 
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Ds has a social security number. I got it for him because it was much less hassle just doing it when he was born than it would be for him to do it years later.

I'm also not in the least bit concerned about it being used to track him. If the government wants to track him, they'll do it, social security number or not. I'm just careful about who I supply it to (right now, the IRS is the only entity that I've given it to).

That said, I have nothing against parents who choose not to get SSNs for their children. I'd just hope that they keep all documentation available for their children so that it will be as easy as possible for them to obtain one if/when they decide they'd like to.

This thing about taxes being unconstitutional: Have you actually read the Constitution? It expressly gives to Congress the power to tax for the general welfare of the nation. It's one of the few things in our Constitution that is actually clear. I can see being up in arms about the extent to which we are being taxed, but it's beyond a stretch to say that taxing, in general, is unconstitutional. And any employer who doesn't pay taxes for that reason is really setting him/herself up for a major headache at some point.
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#18 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:34 PM
 
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BTW, about the SSN being required for the Child Tax Credit:

I'm fairly certain that you can get a Tax Identification Number (TIN) for your child if you want to claim him/her on your taxes. You can contact the IRS to find out the procedure.

But then, that's also "putting them on the grid."
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#19 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:38 PM
 
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Hi there,

I just want to clarify that Canada does have something called a social insurance number which differs from a health care number. According to Canadian law, you do need one for specific social programmes. More information can be found http://www.sdc.gc.ca/asp/gateway.asp...tml&hs=sxn#q10

I'm just curious as to the advantages of not having a social security number?

Thanks
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#20 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:38 PM
 
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to the OP. I hear what you're saying. We did consider not getting one. Our wonderful-hands-off midwife got so used to us NOT doing everything, she specifically asked if we wanted to do that or not (there's a box to check on the birth cert. paperwork here to do it at the same time) We tossed the idea around, but living in the city- on the grid- it didn't seem very feasible to make it far without one. If I lived in a rural area where we could be more self-sufficient I would consider it seriously.

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#21 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 04:49 PM
 
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To the op: Could you provide maybe a short list of reasons why you don't want to get a ssn for your child? I'm seeing a lot of reasons why it's a crucial thing to have (and I agree with them), but I haven't seen you state your reasoning behind not getting one (other than that bit about the "slave state"), and I'm very curious.
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#22 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 05:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolynrosa
What's presumptuous is to assume that my child will WANT to be hooked into the grid from birth in the first place. It's a lot easier to hook yourself in than it is to ever get yourself out. At least she has a choice this way -- how could you possibly consider it presumptuous to give her the choice and not presumptuous to plug her in for life?

I think it's amazing that even in an open, alternative group such as this, that simply asking advice about something that some may disagree with gets you attacked by people afraid to stand up to the government they claim to dislike, even when they know the government is wrong.

You sound like any other fear mongering government minion out there trying to make people feel guilty for standing up for themselves. Would you DARE raise a Christian child in a muslim-extremist world? How DARE you use your child to make a religious point in a place that shuns christianity?!! How irresponsible and selfish of you to be so presumptuous! How do you know that your child will even WANT to be Christian?

Back-off, thank you very much.

I'm not here to make enemies. If I wanted to do that I'd ask the Social Security Administration.

First of all, you're not "attacked". It's called a difference of opinion. I've been here for 3 years and sometimes I get challenged too. It makes you a better person/parent if you let it. On to the topic at hand...

No, it is harder to plug in than to un-plug. And it is getting harder by the day. A pp said that she got an SSN for dc and doesn't disclose it unless it is absolutely necessary. To me, that's a good compromise that doesn't include your child in your political fight. I got an SSN late in life and it was not easy, even in the '70's. I can guarantee that if future administrations maintain similar policies, it will become almost impossible to get the single most important item of citizenship... an SSN. Your daughter will be considered an alien, and most likely, a threat to this paranoid government. Fight the fight where it makes a difference... don't make your daughter suffer. And on the other note of your message...


Would you DARE raise a Christian child in a muslim-extremist world?


Honey... you DO NOT EVEN WANT TO GO THERE with me!!! This makes me madder than hell!! You want a fight on your hands.... let's have at it. Our family is Armenian, dh raised in Turkey. You haven't even the SLIGHTEST clue about ethnic genocide or growing up Christian in a Muslim world (otherwise you would not have made your inane comparison). Families butchered before your eyes, refugees, families torn apart. You are an ignorant person to even equivocate such a thing as getting SSN to ethnic cleansing.

(In case you're not inclined to know or look it up... google for Armenian Genocide and then come back here and make your comparisons.)
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#23 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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*sigh*
The Social Security program is a Ponzi scheme. Just because it's government run, does not make it a good idea. As a voluntary 'retirement' plan, I am choosing not to enroll my child. She can always join the bandwagon later, if she chooses.
At best, SS is a raw deal. At worst, it's the perfect way to track and control people in a Nazi Police-State. Either way, I don't plan to allow my child to be taken advantage of or branded with this ID number. Luckily, it's still my choice.

Thanks for all the 'advice.' I guess next time I'll remember not to post about things that aren't 'conventional' enough.

Funny, but if I had asked for advice about, say, breastfeeding past 18 months, I imgaine I would have had a lot more support, or at least less criticism. Or even non-vaxing. I've never seen 'open minds' respond so negatively to something they obviously don't know much about.
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#24 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 05:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly
BTW, about the SSN being required for the Child Tax Credit:

I'm fairly certain that you can get a Tax Identification Number (TIN) for your child if you want to claim him/her on your taxes. You can contact the IRS to find out the procedure.
The IRS website I referenced says this is only available for children adopted outside the country while waiting for legal citizenship. I thought that would be possible as well.
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#25 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 05:45 PM
 
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*sigh*

People back off when their views are not met with 100% approval.

Stick around Carolyn... you'll find people that agree and disagree. I see that you're new, and don't let this thread put you off. It's hard to have people disagree, but it will happen more than once during your tenure here.

(I still think that SSN has nothing to do with thwarting the gov't. )
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#26 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 06:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheshire
I got the letter from Lexis Nexis that my information may have been hacked...
Is it possible for you to explain that, even in a PM, to me? My hubby got a job with them *right* after that happened, and no one is talking about it, so we don't know what happened. As far as he can tell, his company doesn't have info like that to be let loose, so to speak, so we're really curious!


Back on topic, sort of.

carolynrosa, I am very familiar with the reasons people don't do SSNs and don't file taxes and all that. Became familiar while doing my time in chiropractic school.

A really great way to get people to hear you is to simply explain things, not use phrases like "Ponzi scheme" which few people can define or have even heard of, or wild comparisons, or really any explanation that sounds even wilder than the initial idea of not getting a SSN.

The off-grid stuff you are doing can be presented in a really good and understandable way, but presenting as though people already know what you are talking about is not that way. Explaining from the beginning helps.

As for me, I considered it, but ultimately I don't really care if people are watching me. I'm not doing anything illegal under current laws, well, except maybe speeding every so often, and if people want to watch me, so be it. I also had to give up all ideas of being unwatched when I found out my new stepdad worked (and still contracts with) for the CIA, and that my mom would be working there, too. Her last job with them was with the counterterrorist group; alas she was diagnosed with leukemia and then died exactly 1.5 years before the Towers...since it had been her job/specialty to monitor "chatter" in the, well, area where the guys came from, but no one had been in her computer or at her desk from mid-December to mid-March, I can't help or stop wondering what crucial information was lost with her, and what could have been different if she hadn't died. She had a really unique way of putting things together, and if I let myself think about it too much I'll go crazy...

ANYWAY that's a topic for another time! Point is, most of my family works for government now, nothing I can do about that, so me trying to hide myself or my family is pretty laughable. Very few degrees of separation, and all that.
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#27 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The first thing I want to wrap my head around here is that I'm not being attacked... hmm...

Anyway, I think your emotions are keeping you from recognizing my point. The good news is, you made it for me. Thanks.

When I brought up raising a Christian child in an un-christian world, what I'm trying to say is that if you believe something is right, you have an obligation to raise your child according to your beliefs -- religious, political, or otherwise. Regardless of how "hard" life will be for them, it is better to be right and hated for it than to duck and cower and go with the flow. Hence the analogy.

I do not plan on indoctrinating my child into what I believe is a corrupt, evil system. I agree that life with a ssn is easier, in some ways, but that's not the point. Of course it's easier. Hitler made it easy to get numbered if you were a Jew, and Bush is making it easy to get numbered and thrown into Gitmo. If you honestly believe that it is more difficult for an American citizen to get out of the system than it is to get in, there is no reason for me to continue this discussion with you. They couldn't make it any easier.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not looking for enemies here. I don't understand how people can get so upset when they hear someone else's honest opinions. We all have different backgrounds and different beliefs, and we all have reasons for our beliefs. If I'm wrong, show me how I'm wrong. Prove it -- don't just get "madder than hell" because you dislike what I have to say. There are people being slaughtered and killed all over the world. The one thing all of these people have in common is that they were killed by government. Our government has killed more innocent people in Iraq than Saddam ever did (between the sanctions and the war).

There is nothing evil or wrong with Civil Disobedience. As long as there are honest people out there who never recieved a SSN at birth, the government will have to continue to make exceptions for them. I thought I was asking informed people about this; that was my mistake. There are millions of Americans who do not pay income taxes at all. Look it up. The government wants you to fear them -- and most people do. But I don't. I was irresponsibly raised to believe that you should stand up for yourself and your beliefs. My presumptuous mother thought she should raise me based on her own beliefs, not the beliefs of the main stream. I'll tell her how I learned today that she was wrong.

Regards
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#28 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 06:16 PM
 
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You need to have a SSN to claim the child as a deduction. We just got a SSN for ds2 (he's a year old) last week to file our 2004 taxes.

For ds1, the insurance we had at the time mandated a SSN within 6 weeks in order to cover him. I probably could have fought them on it, but with a newborn and postpartum health issues I just wasn't up for it. I figure he's going to need one eventually anyway.
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#29 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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mollyeilis --

Thanks for the kind words. I understand that my mistake was assuming people here had heard the arguments before. Luckily, no one knows where I live.

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#30 of 205 Old 08-17-2005, 06:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolynrosa
There is nothing evil or wrong with Civil Disobedience. As long as there are honest people out there who never recieved a SSN at birth, the government will have to continue to make exceptions for them.
I totally agree that there is nothing at all wrong with civil disobedience. I do think, though, that you'll find that the government isn't going to make many exceptions for people who don't have SSNs. When the government is not requiring a person's involvement in something, they generally do not have to make exceptions for people who opt out for religious, philosophical, etc. beliefs.

Quote:
I thought I was asking informed people about this; that was my mistake. There are millions of Americans who do not pay income taxes at all. Look it up.
I'm pretty informed on the Constitution. My reading on the websites of people who claim taxes are unconstitutional tells me that they generally are not. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Truly. It's not often that I get the opportunity to hear directly from a person who believes this, as I'm mostly surrounded by people who study the Constitution for a living and have yet to find a Constitutional scholar who holds this belief.

You're certainly not the only person here who was raised to think for yourself. You're just picking a different battle than some of us here do. That doesn't mean that your battle is any less important than ours or that, because we haven't chosen your battle, we are all sheep being led around by our noses.
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