non-AP mamas who want to think they're AP? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 149 Old 03-13-2006, 06:17 PM
 
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AP is about meeting your child's needs. Because of that, I can see how religious circumcision might be consistent with AP. It's not about meeting a greater need for the child as defined by the religion. Not saying that I agree with that interpretation, just saying that I can see how it might be rationalized.
I think its not as cut and dry a decision. I am muslim, I have two circ sons. I wish I had researched it, asked some religious scholars more before hand. But I am not sure I would have either way ever felt good about doing it or not. You know this might be an interesting project but to really source out for christian, jewish, muslim etc women what the basis is and if the religious scholars still see the relevance, just a thought.

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Also - neither of my sons were strapped down - how dare you in your ignorance try to state that this happens in all cases! We insisted on pain relief and my second son slept through the entire proceedure. I agree that they were uncomfortable during the recovery, but I would never consent to having my sons strapped down!
My sons were given a loose circ they still have foreskin not how its sometimes described, they were given nerve blocks, pain meds and after care and I really looked for discomfort, changes in appetite, sleeping there weren't any. My husband held them, there was no board they were strapped to...and I do think infant circ is less traumatic and easier to recover than choosing as a man as the nerves do grow back quickly shortly after birth just an aside.

I don't think you can judge a person's entire parenting style or values based on one decision to do something that you disagree with. There are things that are obvious like circ, then there are things that aren't like not GD when no one is around....No one is 100% AP, no one is ever going to be. Since every child is different even doing the same Attachment parenting with both children might yeild different qualities of attachment.

We all try to do (you can hope) to make the best decisions with the information or misinformation at hand.

But on the religious bent, one thing that religion does teach us is not to judge others. But I think this is more of a why would someone identify as AP if they are not really that interested. I think parenthood has become so politicized and I hate to see AP broken down into practices its first and foremost establishing secure emmotional parenting bonds.

Somedays maybe putting that kid in a stroller might be preserving the emmotional bond if the mom is about to loose it

But I think also unless you grew up with the organic eating, baby wearing, breastfed on demand, clothdiapering, affectionate accepting homeschoolin parents then its something these mamas are aspiring to and figuring out the difference between wearing your babybjorn to the mall/on an outing once a week and babywearin' for security. Its a learning curve for us all....

But I still get a kick of of some first time mom with a brand new baby aspiring to be so ap who thinks that 2 years might have been to quick to stop breastfeeding...um do it first honey Also sometimes it requires mentioning things that are embarrassing like you take medication, you needed surgery, had to go to a mental institution for 3 weeks for sucidal postpartum depression....

or looks down at my stroller, girl I got three of them which one should I not wear today?

8 might be enough
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#122 of 149 Old 03-13-2006, 07:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Llyra
I don't think of AP as a checklist. I don't think of AP as an exclusive club, that only people who follow everything on the checklist can belong to. I also don't really spend much time judging other people's parenting against some kind of checklist. So no, it doesn't really bother me much what people call themselves. CIO bothers me, and so does yelling and put-downs and spanking, but a mama can call herself any thing she pleases, and that's fine with me.
Amen, mama!
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#123 of 149 Old 03-13-2006, 07:02 PM
 
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In response to the original post, I think that some people who categorize themselves as "AP" are really psyched to finally be part of an exclusive group. There's a range, there, as to how "AP" you can be. I noticed this when I was a new mom. The moms who were able to buy and show off "AP" goods and who were able to conform to a strict Granijuian or Searsian model of what a parent looks like, those people were like queens in their AP circles. Then there's other moms on the periphery, the ones who didn't nurse, or who used throw-away diapers, or who owned cribs. They were not quite as "in."

The whole thing smacks of Jr. High clique garbage to me.
I find anyone overly concerned with who's in and who's out of the cool moms' club to be highly irritating not to mention peurile.

edited to add, I hadn't read any of this thread so I apologize for repeating others.
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#124 of 149 Old 03-13-2006, 08:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by USAmma
Attachment Parenting is first and foremost about attachment and bonding. Period. There are many things that are contrary to attachment parenting such as causing a baby pain or emotional distress. There are other things that one might think are contrary to AP ideals that good AP parents practice because that's what works best for their family, or those are the circumstances they are faced with and must adjust the standards.

On paper I'm a miserable AP parent. I felt like a failure for years because some of the ideals of AP were not attainable to me. I have even made a lot of mistakes in the hazes of stress, sleep deprivatio, and PPD. But in my heart and in practice I'm very attached to my kids and they to me, and therefore I'm an AP mother.

OTOH just because a mother practices some or most of the AP goals (breastfeeding, family bed, etc) does not make them AP. I know of a few moms like this who look great on paper but behind the scenes things are not so great and the parents are not trying to improve themselves to get beyond those practices.

I think if a parent is trying to improve their parenting and they want to subscribe to the AP name as an inspiration to improve themselves and thier family life, then great! Even if they are not 100% perfect, it's up to us to encourage them and educate them, not criticize them and drag them down. They need us. Their kids need us.
What a beautiful post!!!

I've got to admit, I'm so saddened by the advocation/justification of circumcision in this thread.
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#125 of 149 Old 03-13-2006, 08:14 PM
 
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Me too.
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#126 of 149 Old 03-13-2006, 08:18 PM
 
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Me too.

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#127 of 149 Old 03-13-2006, 08:20 PM
 
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Oh gosh, no! I know how against it you are! I was responding to the many posts throughout the thread - not yours at all!!! Sorry if I gave you that impression.
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#128 of 149 Old 03-13-2006, 08:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by caloli
Oh gosh, no! I know how against it you are! I was responding to the many posts throughout the thread - not yours at all!!! Sorry if I gave you that impression.
I was editing my post as you replied. I was reading too fast. Sorry.

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#129 of 149 Old 03-13-2006, 08:29 PM
 
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oh, no problem Like I said, I know how against it you are, and if someone questioned whether I was supporting it I'd be 'now wait just a minute' too!
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#130 of 149 Old 03-14-2006, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Danesmama
This post is seriously offensive! I did not agree, after much debate, with my husband to have my sons circ'ed just because he wanted to. He had well thought out and clear arguements why he felt we should do it (none of which included that our ds's penis would look nice! - thus we did not base decisions on cosmetic surgery). I understand that you would never agree with his arguements, and thus am not going to go into that debate, but suffice to say I agreed because marriage is a partnership and sometimes we have to compromise. Again, I understand you would never compromise with your dh about circ, but you've never walked a mile in my shoes now have you?

Also - neither of my sons were strapped down - how dare you in your ignorance try to state that this happens in all cases! We insisted on pain relief and my second son slept through the entire proceedure. I agree that they were uncomfortable during the recovery, but I would never consent to having my sons strapped down!

I may have circ'ed my sons, but would never recommend that anyone else do it. I still extended BF (neither one of my sons has ever taken a bottle - even of pumped Breast Milk), co-sleep, sling, work at GD (I too loose my temper on occassion), Never used CIO, try to be responsive to my children's needs and treat them as human beings. If you don't consider me AP - that's fine, you're welcome to your opinion, but it seems rather narrow minded to me.

Sooo if your next one is a girl what part of her are you going to "compromise" to amputate?

You really need to visit the case against circumcision forum.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

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#131 of 149 Old 03-14-2006, 09:17 PM
 
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Hi,
Just had to chime in again. I still have to go back to USAmma's eloquent post here and say that (of course, I'm paraphrasing here), that we all need to help each other attain the goals that are best for our children and ourselves wrt AP. SO, wouldn't it make sense to instead of chastizing someone for their choice of circumcision to point them in the direction of information, education, and current articles on the practice and why many, many people now feel that it is a totally unnecessary thing???
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#132 of 149 Old 03-15-2006, 12:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bearsmama
Hi,
Just had to chime in again. I still have to go back to USAmma's eloquent post here and say that (of course, I'm paraphrasing here), that we all need to help each other attain the goals that are best for our children and ourselves wrt AP. SO, wouldn't it make sense to instead of chastizing someone for their choice of circumcision to point them in the direction of information, education, and current articles on the practice and why many, many people now feel that it is a totally unnecessary thing???
Yes probably.
I think I am most troubled, not that these posters were misinformed, but that they KNEW it was unnecessary and allowed it anyhow.
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#133 of 149 Old 03-15-2006, 12:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by boingo82
Yes probably.
I think I am most troubled, not that these posters were misinformed, but that they KNEW it was unnecessary and allowed it anyhow.
I completely see your point, Boingo. In fact, I think that this is the exact moral conundrum that many of us come up against as we parent. There are things we all feel in our gut, and I believe it's our job to listen to that. And when we don't, or we can't, or perhaps that voice is obscured by cultural crap, or family crap, or whatever, we at least have to be aware that we heard the voice and chose on some level to ignore it. Hope that makes some sort of sense.
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#134 of 149 Old 03-15-2006, 01:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bearsmama
I completely see your point, Boingo. In fact, I think that this is the exact moral conundrum that many of us come up against as we parent. There are things we all feel in our gut, and I believe it's our job to listen to that. And when we don't, or we can't, or perhaps that voice is obscured by cultural crap, or family crap, or whatever, we at least have to be aware that we heard the voice and chose on some level to ignore it. Hope that makes some sort of sense.
Well said.
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#135 of 149 Old 11-12-2006, 06:39 PM
 
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Wow, this thread is shocking. I didn't realize people could justify RIC surgery here. To compare it with a tired mom trying CIO or spanking in ignorance... I may have spanked my dd back in the day, but I don't come here to hear about why it wasn't so awful & how dare people try to make me feel bad for doing it. I apologized to her & that's that. However, if I'd cut her genitals off, it would be a lifetime mutilation she couldn't just forgive & forget.
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#136 of 149 Old 11-12-2006, 06:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
I think it's obvious that parents who circumcise their boys not knowing any better and then have a change of heart can certaintly be AP. I do wonder, though, whether a parent who maintains that circumcision was an appropriate choice can truly be AP. That continued assertion is indicative of a mindset that a parent's (or family's, in some cases) want trumps a child's need, which is not at all consistent with the principles of AP. It also supports the view that children are not independent humans, and are not entitled to be free from harm at their parent's discretion. That, too, isn't consistent with AP principles.
ITA.
Ds was circ'ed, due to mine and dp's ignorance on the issue. AFTER the fact, I got educated, and now both of us are very much opposed to RIC.
I would definitely consider myself "AP" (dp wouldn't, but just cuz he hates labels. lol), even though we don't follow the checklist (and I don't particularly care for Dr. Sears). But we are very considerate of ds's needs and wants, and treat him with as much respect (probably more. lol) as we would any adult.

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#137 of 149 Old 11-12-2006, 07:23 PM
 
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Marriage may be a partnership, but if one parent is advocating for medically-unnecessary genital cutting, I think it's fair to say that that parent has problems that need to be addressed, and the other parent absolutely MUST protect the children at all costs.
Knowing that circ is harmful and allowing it anyhow is about as far from AP as you can get. There are plenty of mamas who circ'd, honestly believing it was healthier, and they have my compassion because it was society and doctors who wronged them and their children. But knowing...knowing your infant is having part of his sexual organ amputated on the whim of your spouse, and ALLOWING that, is tantamount to allowing someone to sexually abuse your child as far as I'm concerned.
ITA with this post. The defense of RIC in this thread is absolutely shocking

It's definitely one thing if you didn't know any better or if you have strong religious beliefs (not equating the two at all as I have strong religious beliefs too ), but to knowingly allow this ... I can't even fathom letting someone violate a helpless infant in that way.

love and peace.

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: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#138 of 149 Old 11-12-2006, 07:37 PM
 
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then its something these mamas are aspiring to and figuring out the difference between wearing your babybjorn to the mall/on an outing once a week and babywearin' for security. Its a learning curve for us all....
yeah, but don't assume just b/c someone- someone meaning me- says "she's only in the bjorn for an hour a week" doesn't mean they're not practicing AP. dd was a tiny baby, I simply carried her and held her in my arms about 95% of the time she was awake (and about half the time she was asleep) until she was able to sit up on her own. I didn't need a sling. (and no need for anyone to freak out about the torture chamber aka bjorn, I have a mt now. and it hurts my back just as much lol.)

I'm just happy if someone is aspiring to become more attached with their child. label or no!

DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
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#139 of 149 Old 11-12-2006, 07:59 PM
 
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vlad (dh) and i fell into ap quite naturally. when ds was born in january, i knew i wanted to bf, because of the long term benefits. we didn't read any books, or adhere to any kind of parenting guidelines. we just always slept with julien in bed with us, and i used the sling because the stroller felt so separating. and next thing i knew, i was ap without even trying!
we figured out what ap was and how to get even more involved in that kind of parenting once i realized that i was really feeling different from my other friends with kids. they had kids in their own rooms, not breastfed, cio, all kinds of crap i was appalled at. i went on another forum and was asking about other people's feelings about that and found out what ap was and kind of snowballed from there.

whats really frustrating is that i am a member of the ap meetup group here in fort lauderdale, and just because its the biggest moms group here everyone joins up. so i wind up talking to people who i think are into the same parenting techniques as me and then they look at me like i have 2 heads, and go talk to some other mom. i have to say that especially among the punk/goth people i know, it seems like they all say they're ap and nfl but really are not, just because its popular in those communities... :

just be you!! you'll be happier and make closer friends if you are just who you are, and do what you do.

on the other hand, maybe we can get all these wanna-bes to actually start practicing it!! then we don't have to be sad about those poor babies having to cry themselves to sleep in some lonely room, unsated by formula, and unaccustomed to their mother's warmth...

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#140 of 149 Old 11-12-2006, 11:00 PM
 
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I think I was the AP-wanna-be mama with the anti-AP baby.

DS had a very difficult time nursing, and despite hours of pumping, weekly visits with an LC, fenugreek (I smelled like pancakes!), mother's milk tea, living topless with him for weeks, giving him the breast any time he peeped, he just wasn't going for it. At 3.5 months, I pumped every two hours for a full day only to get 4 ounces of milk. DS would nurse and cry. So we went to formula and I was crushed.

DS never liked the family bed and has consistently slept better, without any CIO sleep training, in his own bed. We never sleep trained, but he does occasionally fuss for 5 minutes in his crib before falling asleep. He is a happy sleeper and has been since a very young age, but he won't nap or snuggle with us in our bed. I'd hoped for a family bed; he slept in our room until 9 months in his own crib.

We just switched to cloth diapers after moving into a home with a washer and dryer. I didn't feel like it was worth the effort in an apartment to go to the laundromat every two to three days for diapers - the cost and time involved made it an unwise decision for me. He doesn't like the cloth. He tugs at them, screams while being changed, has more rashes, and seems uncomfortable, even after trying a few different methods and styles of dipes. DH put him in disposables the other day and he went a few hours without fussing at them. I'm sticking with the cloth, but I'm disheartened.

We used a sling but only after 5 months - he hated it before then, no matter what position he was in. He would Baby Bjorn but only on DH.

He's not circed, we selective vax, and I hold him a lot. I love him like nothing else. But I can't claim the AP label; my baby doesn't want me to.
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#141 of 149 Old 11-13-2006, 02:25 AM
 
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He's not circed, we selective vax, and I hold him a lot. I love him like nothing else. But I can't claim the AP label; my baby doesn't want me to.
AP is really more about being attentive to your baby's needs, IMO. So... by parenting your son slightly less "AP" in some ways than you would like to, you are being more attentive to his particular needs. You are a wonderful AP parent because you recognised when to bend your ideals and goals a bit for the good of your child. You didn't keep trying to do what wasn't working for your baby because you wanted to have the perfect AP label

love and peace.

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#142 of 149 Old 11-13-2006, 11:21 AM
 
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AP is really more about being attentive to your baby's needs, IMO. So... by parenting your son slightly less "AP" in some ways than you would like to, you are being more attentive to his particular needs. You are a wonderful AP parent because you recognised when to bend your ideals and goals a bit for the good of your child. You didn't keep trying to do what wasn't working for your baby because you wanted to have the perfect AP label
Exactly. I would rather call myself an Attentive Parent and practice things normally associated with AP so long as the child is willing to go along with it. But there are some times when your child has a different comfort level than the AP ideal and it is important to follow the child's needs. Some babies don't like being touched all the time. If a parent knows that but insists on slinging because they want to be seen as AP are they serving the child or themselves? I think parents need to see their children as individuals with different needs and parent accordingly. I think it's also important to recognize that each child in the family may have different needs as well. As long as a parent is respectful and loving to their children, I have a hard time judging them.

(that said, if I ever hear someone say something like their child is "bad" or use violence against their child, I will judge and judge harshly. That just isn't cool- AP or mainstream)
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#143 of 149 Old 11-13-2006, 11:56 AM
 
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AP is really more about being attentive to your baby's needs, IMO. So... by parenting your son slightly less "AP" in some ways than you would like to, you are being more attentive to his particular needs. You are a wonderful AP parent because you recognised when to bend your ideals and goals a bit for the good of your child. You didn't keep trying to do what wasn't working for your baby because you wanted to have the perfect AP label

love and peace.
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#144 of 149 Old 11-13-2006, 05:38 PM
 
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Thanks! I am attentive and love our little guy fiercely. His needs come first, even when they don't necessarily meld with what I envisioned.
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#145 of 149 Old 11-13-2006, 06:18 PM
 
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I haven't read the other responses, but my guess would be that they WANT to practice AP but can't stick with it for whatever reason. I don't like labels and would never label myself AP, mostly because I would be afraid of doing something considered "non-AP" and someone thinking I was a hypocrit (sp?).
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#146 of 149 Old 11-14-2006, 12:09 AM
 
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I think if a person is "truly" AP they just live it and don't have to label it, siggy it, and shout it from the rooftops. There are things that I practice in my daily life, but I don't let everyone know about it. If you just live it, the proof is in the pudding......it will show and you don't have to tell the world about it for justification or whatever the reason is that people do that. Just BE and you will be a happier person and so will your children. Labels are dangerous in all aspects.
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#147 of 149 Old 11-14-2006, 01:34 AM
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forum search function must be working or something, lol.

wonder what prompted resurrection of this thread, dead since march '06 until yesterday.
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#148 of 149 Old 11-14-2006, 08:04 AM
 
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I haven't read the other responses, but my guess would be that they WANT to practice AP but can't stick with it for whatever reason. I don't like labels and would never label myself AP, mostly because I would be afraid of doing something considered "non-AP" and someone thinking I was a hypocrit (sp?).

Yeah I agree with that. I guess it's good that they want to be AP. I only found out what AP was recently and realised I do some of those things. When my lo was born I just did what came natrually. I had bought a cot when I was pregnant but decided when he was born that it would be cruel to leave him all alone in it so he slept with us. I had a pram too - he hated it so was in the sling all day! I breastfed because I found it easy. Couldn't bear to hear him cry so would never do CIO. I would still never say I was AP though, I don't like labels either!
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#149 of 149 Old 11-14-2006, 08:46 PM
 
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The term AP HAS taken on a life of it's own... even some AP parents don't TRULY grasp what is meant by "Attachment Parenting"...

A GREAT read for AP moms and dads: http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Secure.../dp/0399529942

Sheds some light on the depths of AP'ing... example, how a child may be TOTALLY attached, and firmly bonded, but, because of unknown, or unconscious variables, that attachment becomes insecure; how to reveal if this is or has happened, how to do emotional repair, and how to sustain AP'ing into your child's adulthood...
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