Mothering Forums

Mothering Forums (
-   Parenting (
-   -   Still agonizing over shots. Help please! (

oatmeal 02-08-2003 02:01 AM

I decided to day to have dd start attending daycare/playgroup 2 mornings a week. I got the chance to get her into a spot with my Sil's mom, so I can truly trust she can receive family-like treatment from someone she knows. Plus cousin goes there too.

Anyway, I know she will be getting sick more often now, and cough is a worry for me. The pediatrician who saw her in the hospital after I had her told me a bone chilling story of what it's like to watch a baby die of pertussis and it has stayed with me. I called the doctor today and made an apointment to get her a DTP shot on Monday. Her first shot ever.

I am in agaony. I went back in and read the Neustader book on this vaccine and am reminded he calls it the deadliest one of them all. My mind is swimming with numbers. the Japanese, like Dr. Gordon in Santa Monica, don't give this until 2 at the very earliest. Then the book says that 7 year olds don't get it at all because at that age it is deadly.

I am so conflicted about this. I want to protect my baby. I am afraid of Pertussis and afraid of the vaccine. Both are deadly.

How do you weigh one against the other? I don't want my baby obviously to die coughing but I also don't want her nervous system permanently maimed by the vaccine. Help!

cathe 02-08-2003 02:16 AM

I can so relate to your dilemma. The immunization thing was the hardest decision I have made so far with my girls. Everything I read seemed so biased - the mainstream literature made me scared not to vaccinate and the anti-vaccine made me scared to. In the end, we decided not to but I still get twinges of "did I make the right decision". Especially when I talk to someone in the medical field.

I would also love to hear from other mom's about this issue.

BowenTherapist 02-08-2003 02:18 AM

this is a very hard choice... no more heads in the sand.
petussis is treatable. there is probaly something natural but there are also antibiotics, since it is bacterial. there is a book... how to raise a healthy child instite of your ped by mendolson,md and he goes over the pros and cons of each shot. i also heard there is another book by jill aviva (or something)
also something to think about... many of the kids that got pertussis have been FULLY vaccinated. Ibelieve that by vacc ing it lowers thier immune system
it's a tough choice... have faith that which ever you choose is right for your family and situation

oatmeal 02-08-2003 02:42 AM

I continue my vain internet and book search for an answer.

I found this at and I see she won't be "immune" until she's had at least 3 doses a couple of ymonths. So what in the interim? Whose logic is this?

Here's the statement:

How Do You Prevent It?

*While there is no lifelong protection against pertussis, immunization is the best preventive measure for your child. The vaccine to protect your child against whooping cough is the diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (DTaP) vaccine and should be administered in 5 doses: at 2, 4, 6, and 15-18 months of age and 4 - 6 years of age. It is very important that your child receives all 5 doses for maximum protection.
*Consult your healthcare provider to be sure your child has been vaccinated.

snuffles 02-08-2003 11:57 AM

Originally posted by BowenTherapist
this is a very hard choice... no more heads in the sand.
petussis is treatable. there is probaly something natural but there are also antibiotics, since it is bacterial. there is a book... how to raise a healthy child instite of your ped by mendolson,md and he goes over the pros and cons of each shot. i also heard there is another book by jill aviva (or something)
also something to think about... many of the kids that got pertussis have been FULLY vaccinated. Ibelieve that by vacc ing it lowers thier immune system
it's a tough choice... have faith that which ever you choose is right for your family and situation
I am pretty sure that pertussis is viral, not bacterial, and so antibiotics don't help. (I may be wrong on this.. its early in the morning)

I really like Dr. Mendelsohn's book.

I would like to say that I agonized over this issue for a long time, and it can be a very personal decision. I really feel confident in my decision now not to vaccinate.

I wouldn't make the decision on a whim though. If you are unsure, it doesn't hurt to wait.

How old is she?


Quirky 02-08-2003 12:32 PM

Two books I really like are Dr. Stephanie Cave's book on What your doctor may not tell you about vaccines and Aviva Romm's book. I don't think either of them engage in scare tactics (unlike a lot of both pro and anti vaxxers).

For me, it's all about the numbers. You need to get some sense of what the likelihood your dd may contract a disease vs. the likelihood (less well known, but just as scary) that she may have an adverse reaction to the vax.

Can you find out from your public health dept. what the incidence of pertussis has been in your city/county? Can you ask your ped how many cases s/he's seen? What about that case where the poor baby died - had that baby been vaxxed? Was it in good health before it contracted pertussis? Also ask your doc how many cases of pertussis s/he's seen where the baby didn't die, and what in the doc's opinion the differences were.

I don't disagree that some of the vax-preventable diseases can be very serious or fatal. But as with other diseases I think there's a spectrum from non-serious to serious, and where you fall on that spectrum when you contract it has to do with your general health, the quality of care you receive, how soon it's detected, and a good helping of luck.

I know how difficult these decisions are. DS is 6 months and hasn't been vaxed for anything yet; I'm still thinking about which, if any, to give and when.

oatmeal 02-08-2003 12:47 PM

DD is one. A non vax Dr. had told me last year to wait until she was one if I had to give her shots. When I talked to him a couple of weeks ago he says he has now changed his mind and doesn't give his patients vaccines anymore at all. He also said that If I still want to vax I should now wait until she is 2.

In California (20 Million?) there were 634 cases of pertussis documented las tyear. I don't know who died if any. These odss in themselves would make me decide not ot vax.. But the minute we get on an airplane somewhere I'll be on pins and needles wondering if some awful germs are circulating through air from other people from other countries and states.

I can't decide. No one told me parenting could be agonizing like this...

If I wait another year and she's at playgroup all that time I just feel like I'm leaving her wode open. I know kids are little breeding grounds.

naturalmama3 02-08-2003 01:41 PM

HI! I agree with Jane in the books she recommends. Dr. Stephanie Cave is Excellent! I have heard her speak. This has been an agonizing decision as well for myself as I have 2 children who are fully vaccinated and my 16mo dd I stoppd vaxing at 9 mos. when I became informed on thimerosol. I then started to read more and what I read was disturbing. Keep reading and be as informed as possible. I am equally disturbed that there are no mandates for ped's to report vaccine reactions and less that 10% are reported! If accurate statistics are not recorded than how can they know how well they work? My pediatric chiropractor (whose parents actually hosted Dr. Viera Schriebner in their home-not sure if name spelled right) has told me that vaccines do not work. I was also disturbed to learn that babies do not produce bile until they are 6 mos. old and they receive a myraid of vaccines before that point. I have read that bile is necessary to remove the metals from the immunizations. My chiropractor recommended websites for Concerned parents for Vaccine Safety and another She also recommended Dr. Schreibner's books. You can only look at the pro's and cons and follow your heart. Many of these diseases are not deadly if contracted by the otherwise healthy child. Many of these diseases have been wiped out or were on the decline by better sanitation methods way before the vaccine came out and if the child contracts the disease they will have a lifetime of immunity--no shot can give that! Many disease outbreaks have occurred in 80-100% vaccinated communities check out the OPV of which 100% of cases were caused by the vaccine! Keep on researching, I read something about this issue every day. I have fears like your's but my heart tells me that it is not in my children's best interest. The medical communtiy prey's on your fears and does not do their job in adequately informing parents on both sides of the vaccine issue (mine gives me a paper produced by the CDC that is pathetic and gives one a false sense of security). It is also sad that when their expertise is challenged physicians become bullies and become threatening. Aren't we all on the same side, to protect the health of our children? I look forward to seeing what others have to say on this issue.

wife for 9 years to dh Maurice and ds's Brandon & Justin and dd Shannon and little one due in June

Tracy 02-08-2003 02:38 PM

i've posted a few things for you in your other thread in vax.....

but just to say here too.
I like the cave book very much. Just so you know in her book which has data current for dec. 2000.
There were 228 cases of hib in children in the united states in 1998.

I've given you some more data on pertussis in the vax forum..but basically in los angeles county which has ten million people there were around 250 cases of reported vax. (99) And of the children who got it most had been vaxed.

Not that you are asking but there were under 50 cases of measles in the us last year and I believe 4 cases in california. (that thread is in vax)

Diptheria is almost completely eliminated.

when you start going through the real risks...well, for me, when I weighed the risks I felt that our son was better without it. Especially, since I'm not comfortable with the rise of adhd, autism and other issues.....

owen&mama 02-08-2003 03:41 PM

Oh, I can relate. I am agonizing over the immunization issue right now. My DS is partially immunized and has had no reactions at all up to this point. The vaccines he has received have no thimerosol (sp?) in them, yada yada yada. But this is such a personal decision, I wouldn't even be so bold as to try to defend any position I may have, even if I had one!

The only thing I would encourage you to do is to do your homework on both sides of the issue. Personally, I've found it very easy to find anti-vax sites on the internet; oddly, I found it challenging to find pro-vax sites and information. Once I found that, though, I felt a bit more in control of the information I had access to. What I mean by that is that I felt I could compare apples to apples. Many of the studies on both sides are paid for by "interested" parties and the results can be misleading. I found it helpful to look at how the studies were conducted in terms of the statistical relevance, scientific methodologies, environmental factors, funding organization, and, of course, the organization performing & reporting.

And watch the "statistics". Again, on both sides, I've found that stats can be reported in many different ways, depending on the picture one wants to paint. Just approach every bit of information with a discerning eye.

That being said, good luck. There's a lot out there to sift through.

Tracy 02-08-2003 04:13 PM

I agree with owenmomma, there is tons to sift through and like her I agree, it can be so emotionally gut-wrenching. I sometimes wish I was like most of the country who considers it a know the 'just do it' crowd.

I had a little different experience regarding pro-vax data. For me i kind of felt like i am constantly in a sea of pro vax. I don't mean that people are handing me provax stuff..but there is just sort of a consensus thought, "of course we vax".

my doctor is pro vax, pretty much everyone I know has vaxed their children and if they hear I have concerns they are quite surprised. I think that owenmomma might be right in that the web has a number of non vax sites but i think it is just because it is such a minority who don't vax and for them the web is a good resource.

but all county records/state records and federal agencies on the web that I have gone to are all pro-vax.

as for agendas and research eli lily scares me the most.

edit to say.... i almost forgot. My overall feeling about anything regarding mothering. and I mean anything..... follow you gut. If your gut says you need to vax then follow it.. if your gut says you need to wait, then follow it. If your gut says you need to pass than follow it. I might be a bit more galvanized about non vax at this time but i don't want that to confuse who I am at my core and that is one who wants moms to follow their guts. I think that is the only way this world will be better. Is if moms follow their gut.

good luck on all.

snuffles 02-09-2003 12:02 AM


just wanted to say that if pertussis is the thing you are fearing, that it is most serious in children under the age of 1. so you've got an advantage there if she DID get it... just another way for you to think about it.


Soleil 02-09-2003 12:31 AM

Yes, both are scary. I go with whichever one (disease vs. vaccine) that has the lowest risk to my child.

somemama 02-09-2003 12:15 PM

And how do you make that decision, Soleil?

oatmeal 02-11-2003 10:59 PM

Glad to be back - I haven't been able to get in here for days - the site keeps saying it can't connect me to the boards?

Anyway - we didn't go to the appointment Monday. I'm now thinking I'll wait until 2 for Dtap like the Japanese do. She has to get 5 shots beforeshe's quote un quote immune anyway.

the only other shot I want to give her is the Hib. I feel meningitis is serious and can possibly damage her worse than the vaccine might.

Thanks for all your help. Now i want to find a vitamin C supplement for babies... if there is one.

mcimom 02-11-2003 11:02 PM

we have not vaccinated any of our 3 dds. it is the best decision i feel i have made as a parent. b/t that and bfing my kids have great immune systems - even my dd1, who i only bfed to 4 months, very rarely gets sick.

we have a playgroup that meets every 2 weeks and we often have playdates w/my best friend and our neighbors - these kids are always sick and it is so rare that my girls have ever caught anything. we are always playing in the mall play areas, on playgrounds - places where snotty kids are all day long - and my kids are fine. dd1 just started pre-school and i was more concerned about that, but not one cold from her this season.

this is very hard i know - what the decision boiled down to for me was - i could handle my kids getting sick in a natural way, BUT i could *never* live w/myself if my kids got sick b/c i agreed to have them injected w/something.

hth - good luck in your decision and i've heard the same thing about pertussis, that's it's most concerning when contracted under the age of 1 and you're past that!

jkwatkins 02-12-2003 01:05 AM

The book by Dr Mendolson is excellent. How to raise a Healthy Child inspite of your Doctor will answer alot of your questions. Another book I like is called Mommy Diagnostics by herbalist Shonda Parker. She tells the personal story of a mom who's dd got pertusis and what she did to treat it. Knowing that this disease is treatable helped me in my personal decision to not vaccinate. In the personal story, all of the children ended up getting pertusis but were treated with an antibotic and got over it. Mommy Diagnostics has been a great book in helping me worry less about my children. I've been able to tell what sickness they have had and have used herbal remedies to help them get better.

Cloverlove 02-12-2003 04:34 AM

Ds had pertussis about two years ago (he was 3.5). And while I would not wish it on anyone, we survived. We lived in a community (in oregon) that had very low vax rates. Cosequently, pertussis was on the rise. I don't believe there was a single fatality though.

Lessons learned: vaccines do *seem* to help prevent against diseases BUT are the diseases so bad we are willing to gamble unknown risks? We all have different comfort levels, making this a truely *personal* decision.

FYI:B. pertussis is a bacterium, but the "whoop" is caused by the by-products of metabolism, making antibiotics generally ineffective. There are many supportive measures, however. Aviva Jill Romm has a great discussion regarding pertussis, both physically and spiritually.

owen&mama 02-12-2003 01:26 PM


asher'smom 02-12-2003 05:27 PM

Just to let everyone know, since there seems to be some confusion. Anitibiotics are given to people with pertussis or close contacts to prevent the spread of the disease. The antibiotics do not do anything to help the course of the disease. It will just help the person who is ill not be contagious. It takes a full 5 days of antibiotics before they are no longer contagious (for a confirmed case of pertussis). The person can continue to cough for weeks or months.

jkwatkins 02-12-2003 07:23 PM

Cloverlove, I was just sharing from a book not personal experience with pertusis. The herbalist reccommended several herbs in her response to the personal story. And the child that got pertusis first was the one that had the most difficult time getting over the whooping cough. The mom in the story waited a month before taking her dd to the doctor for a culture. When I hear of children overcoming pertusis it just encourages me to stick to my personal beliefs on immunizations. I would not wish pertusis on any child or anyone, I am glad to hear that your ds got over it.

carmen veranda 02-12-2003 07:33 PM

In our state, in order for a day care to be registered and licenced they must have proof of immunizations for all children in their care. So if you think you might ever want to use licenced day care, this might be a consideration. I agree with Trabot. You know best!!!!

momatheart23 02-12-2003 07:46 PM

I was uninformed about the whole issue of Vacs when I had my son, as well as a lot of other issues. After having him I have become very concerned about health and nutrition. I decided at 9 months to stop vaccinating him and am very secure in that decision. Yet I don't feel that all kids shouldn't be vaccinated. I choose not to vaccinate because my son because I know he has a great immune system and I work to maintain it. He is breastfed, eats a diet of whole foods that keep him healthy, and I don't use drugs that suppress symptoms and weaken the immune system. All the "bugs" he gets I let his body fight naturally. And I have made sure he was exposed to dirt and germs from a early age so his immune system got a lot of practice, so I feel confident that he can fight off whatever he gets. I also agree with the mom that I could handle if he got sick naturally as opposed to because he was injected with something. Find out about the local law for daycares, because I am in CA and here a parent can sign the immunization form saying they choose not to vaccinate and that is fine. I am getting my daycare license, so am informed about the law.

frogertgrl 02-12-2003 09:12 PM

Originally posted by carmen veranda
In our state, in order for a day care to be registered and licenced they must have proof of immunizations for all children in their care. So if you think you might ever want to use licenced day care, this might be a consideration.
Do you have the law specifically stating this? EVERY state in this nation gives the option for families to not vax. The religious exemption is available in every state.

If you are in South Dakota, the law regarding exemptions from vaxes:

SDCL 13-28-7. 1.

1) Certification from a licensed physician stating the physical condition of the child would be such that a test or immunization would endanger his life or health.

2) A written statement signed by one parent or guardian that the child is an adherent to a religious doctrine whose teachings are opposed to such test and immunization.

In a nutshell, SD allows for a medical OR religious exemption.

I have seen countless day care admission forms where the boxes for these two exemption options are listed quite simply, and the parent only need check the applicable box. I would assume such a form exists for daycare institutions in South Dakota.

Oatmeal, I know you live in CA, just wanted to reiterate to anyone reading that no vaccine is mandated in this country for a licensed daycare attendance. Likewise, I have never seen a daycare prohibited from existing based on less than 100% rate of vaxed children in attendence. If this exists, I'd love to be aware of it.

Cloverlove 02-12-2003 10:24 PM

I just wanted to clarify the fact that pertussis is indeed a bacteria (there was a question about this).

Also, I know that once the cough begins it is too late for antibiotics to help your child. I say this so folks don't base their decision not to vax on the false assumption that they can give their child abx and they will be ok. I'm really not sure about the contagious part. We never really left the house when ds had it! And I'm sure it depends on how early you catch it (which is probably what jkw and asher's mom meant).

Really my main point was that while pertussis is a drag, it is managable. I thought this might help lessen some of the fears of the original poster.


jkwatkins 02-13-2003 12:48 AM

Thanks Clover!

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 5.26%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.