I don't use carseats - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-03-2006, 08:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by azurite
Buses do not have belts...any suggestions?
Buses are designed internally and externally much differently than a passenger vehicle. I mentioned earlier buses are built based on the theory of compartmentalization. Statistically there are far less crashes and subsequent serious injuries and deaths experienced to those who are travelling in a bus at the time of a collision.
Currently, there are a few buses in scant cities that were built with safety belts but not many. This may change in the future.

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Old 06-03-2006, 10:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
What it comes down to for me is this: I couldn't live with myself, ever, if I were in a car accident and my decision not to put my child in a car seat cost her life.
But you (general "you") could live with yourself if your child died, despite being in a carseat, when you were driving someplace unnecessarily? Cuz I NEVER hear carseat fanatics emphasizing the far GREATER safety impact of avoiding car travel as much as possible, even though reducing your time in the car reduces the risk of a deadly accident much more than using carseats. That's why it bugs me when people think it's totally cool to live 30 minutes from their kids' school and 40 minutes in the other direction from the grocery store and 90 minutes from the doctor where they have weekly appointments, but are all aghast when a kid is driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I think obsessing about carseats misses the bigger picture.
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Old 06-03-2006, 11:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by srain
That's why it bugs me when people think it's totally cool to live 30 minutes from their kids' school and 40 minutes in the other direction from the grocery store and 90 minutes from the doctor where they have weekly appointments, but are all aghast when a kid is driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I think obsessing about carseats misses the bigger picture.
Maybe. On the other hand, some people have no choice but to live 30 minutes from school, 40 minutes from the grocery store, and 90 minutes from the doctor. Pretty much everyone has a choice whether or not to put their child in a carseat. And it's a fact that children who ride properly strapped in in carseats fare better in an accident than children who are not strapped in properly. So, I think trying to turn the argument in the other direction by focusing on driving time misses the actual point which is that, when one chooses to ride in the car without trapping one's child in, it's an unnecessary, serious risk.
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Old 06-03-2006, 11:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dragonfly
Maybe. On the other hand, some people have no choice but to live 30 minutes from school, 40 minutes from the grocery store, and 90 minutes from the doctor. Pretty much everyone has a choice whether or not to put their child in a carseat. And it's a fact that children who ride properly strapped in in carseats fare better in an accident than children who are not strapped in properly. So, I think trying to turn the argument in the other direction by focusing on driving time misses the actual point which is that, when one chooses to ride in the car without trapping one's child in, it's an unnecessary, serious risk.
And statistically, most accidents happen close to home. Have my child a projectile at even 20 miles an hour? No thanks.
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Old 06-03-2006, 11:39 PM
 
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Sweetangelbrynlie,
Thank you for that reminder!! Even though I already KNEW loose objects could be hazardous, right now there is a wicker basket of toys, including a bunch of metal Hot Wheels cars that were on their way to the Salvation Army, but never arrived since visiting kids liked to play with them. Imagine if one my kids' little friends, buckled safely in his booster seat, was hit by a flying Hot Wheels car. I am going to take that basket out right now...
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Old 06-03-2006, 11:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MommyTo3
Sweetangelbrynlie,
Thank you for that reminder!! Even though I already KNEW loose objects could be hazardous, right now there is a wicker basket of toys, including a bunch of metal Hot Wheels cars that were on their way to the Salvation Army, but never arrived since visiting kids liked to play with them. Imagine if one my kids' little friends, buckled safely in his booster seat, was hit by a flying Hot Wheels car. I am going to take that basket out right now...
Oy. I have mugs in the cup holder. Porcelain ones.
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Old 06-04-2006, 12:07 AM
 
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A car seat tech I know likes to tell the story about getting in an accident and a box of tissues hit her in the head. She ended up with a cut!
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Old 06-04-2006, 12:49 AM
 
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I think I saw that busted on Myth Busters, they did the kleenex box and it didn't do anything.

Anyway, I have a ton of toys in my car : I keep them in there cuz otherwise James will scream the whole time, he likes playing with his puzzle.

Renae wife to J :, Mama to 4.5y/o J-bird and 2y/o A : and E coming in late Dec/Early Jan. My husband had a living donor kidney transplant! :
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Old 06-04-2006, 01:02 AM
 
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The mythbusters episode was about whether it would kill you. And yes, my friend really did get a cut from a tissue box in an accident, totally not related to the mythbusters episode.
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Old 06-04-2006, 02:11 AM
 
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I use car seats because I want to lower the risk of injury or death to my child(ren) and because it's the law. I hope all parents and caregivers protect their children in any way they can in whatever situation they are in to the best of their ability. However, it really annoys me when people get self-righteous about it.


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Old 06-04-2006, 06:54 AM
 
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When I traveled to central Mexico this last year I didn't use a car seat with dd, who was about 22 months, I think.

We traveled by taxi, private car and bus. No one had car seats and it would have been pretty unwieldly trying to hold up everything and put our own carseat in and out of the vehicles. Also, Dd and I were traveling alone. She was young enough that she had to be carried (we don't even own a stroller), and with the luggage I thought trying to lug along a carseat was going to be too difficult.

I did put her in the backseat and buckled her with the lap belt in each case.

I don't know, when you grew up in an era in which the kids stood on the frontseat of the car leaning on the dashboard the whole time, the fact that your two year old has to use only a lapbelt and not a childseat for a few trips seems pretty reasonable, kwim?
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Old 06-04-2006, 07:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by srain
But you (general "you") could live with yourself if your child died, despite being in a carseat, when you were driving someplace unnecessarily? Cuz I NEVER hear carseat fanatics emphasizing the far GREATER safety impact of avoiding car travel as much as possible, even though reducing your time in the car reduces the risk of a deadly accident much more than using carseats. That's why it bugs me when people think it's totally cool to live 30 minutes from their kids' school and 40 minutes in the other direction from the grocery store and 90 minutes from the doctor where they have weekly appointments, but are all aghast when a kid is driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I think obsessing about carseats misses the bigger picture.
I rarely, if ever, drive anywhere "unnecessarily." Unfortunately, I live in a large, very hot Western city, which like most Western cities, was designed with cars in mind. It sprawls over a vast tract of land with very few safe places for bicycles (and the drivers here are very aggressive). Moreover, it would seriously be child abuse -- a term I do not throw around lightly -- to bike or walk with your child during basically late May through late September from about 9:00 in the morning through 7:00 in the evening. Our public transportation system is a joke, literally, and it would (again) literally be impossible to do ordinary activities such as going to the store, to my work, to the doctor. I used to live in Chicago for ten years and never owned a car because I never needed one, but we came out here and within two days realized that having a car was a necessity, not a luxury.

I don't personally enjoy tootling around in the car for no reason, nor do I think most mothers do. The picture of car-driving frivolity you've painted in your post simply doesn't describe me nor most of the people I know, nor most (I suspect) of the mothers on this board.

Oh, and I'd like to add that having the choice as to where to live implies that one has a great deal more money than I personally possess. For many of us, we don't have a heck of a lot of choice as to where to live. It would be easy for you to say, "Well, Charles, why don't you live in a city where there is an excellent PT system?" One word, hon: MONEY. We couldn't afford to live in Chicago for what they paid teachers -----> ; we can't afford to live in New York City or San Francisco (Well, really, who can?) or other large, metropolitan areas with excellent and diverse public transpo. In our particular city, we can't afford to live close to where I work AND close to the supermarket AND close to my doctor's, because there is no such place. Where I work is largely in a seriously economically depressed area and no supermarket chain wants to put a shopping center there...and that's for starters.

Again, I think you are making a rather large assumption both about many people's actual choices and their actual abilities to make those choices.
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:26 AM
 
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Yeah, because a baby crying for five minutes is soooo much worse than a DEAD BABY because mom did something irresponsible. And YES it is IRRESPONSIBLE to take an infant from a properly secured car seat in a car. It has nothing to do with AP. Man.

This is the exact logic DH's parents used when trying to convince us out of cosleeping with DD.

It is the exact logic they used when trying to convince us a homebirth was not the right way to go for the birth of DS.

It is the exact logic my neighbor's just went through with me yesterday when I told them I don't have my kids vax'd.
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Old 06-04-2006, 10:48 AM
 
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Old 06-04-2006, 12:21 PM
 
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srain-- I'm with you. The numbers don't lie, and the fact is that most of us drive "too much." Personally, I drive a lot more often than I think is reasonable. Yes, this is due partially to choices that we have made, but mostly it can't be avoided. Either I have to drive an obscene distance to get my kids to the doctor, or Mike has to drive an obscene distance to get to work. He drives to work every day, and can't consolidate trips the way that I can, so it makes more sense for us to live closer to work. However, this means that the kids are in the car much more often than I'd like, and therefore that they're at much higher risk for being involved in an accident, as well as seriously injured.

I'd absolutely love to reduce the number of hours that I spend on the road, but I've really cut things back as far as I can without totally screwing us over in terms of health insurance. We can only save so much time, money, and energy getting to the doctor before we end up losing time, money and energy in medical bills from people & places who don't take our insurance. That's just the way it is for us. So I'm totally anal about the carseats, as I said before, just because of the statistics.

It's not about how far from home you are, and it's not about how fast the vehicle is moving; it's about the amount of time, overall, that the kids are in the car. Even to drive a ridiculously short distance in a rural area, I would not allow my children to go unrestrained, because it all adds up. I don't think that anyone who drives in the USA should ever drive without a carseat, because there are so many vehicles on the road that it's inherently dangerous. That said, I think that the OP was describing a very different climate than the one in which I drive. No, you can't change the laws of physics, but you can change statistics quite drastically by looking at a different situation. Statistics don't matter much if the one in question is you or your child, but the big picture is very different in different places.

I think that we're all talking about different things.

Another thing-- it's a lot harder to get a carseat than some of you are making out. When I had my accident earlier this year, I busted ass to get new carseats for the kids. Nobody could help me. Birthright could find an infant seat (out of date, with who knows what kind of history), and that was it. I had a toddler and a preschooler who initially had to ride in the seats which had restrained them during the accident (and which were obviously unfit for that task, in my mind) and then spent a week in their cousins old seats, which had never been in an accident but were too big for *both* children. The idea that "anyone can get a free carseat anywhere in the country" is, in my experience, an incorrect one. We had to wait until Mike's next paycheck and then spend money that we really didn't have on new carseats, and hold our breath in the meantime. No, the insurance company didn't just send us a check; when I talked to them, they said that it wasn't their policy to replace carseats after accidents, because we didn't really need new ones anyway. No, the police station didn't just give us carseats; it wasn't a big deal. Nobody cared about it at all. I've been in two serious accidents in which carseats had to be replaced, and never gotten a free replacement. My nieces were in a serious crash in booster seats two and a half years ago and my sister was reimbursed by the insurance company only after my mother's lawyer gave them crap for it. It's not as easy to get a new seat as many of you seem to think it is, at least not around here.

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Old 06-04-2006, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eilonwy
Another thing-- it's a lot harder to get a carseat than some of you are making out. When I had my accident earlier this year, I busted ass to get new carseats for the kids. Nobody could help me. Birthright could find an infant seat (out of date, with who knows what kind of history), and that was it. I had a toddler and a preschooler who initially had to ride in the seats which had restrained them during the accident (and which were obviously unfit for that task, in my mind) and then spent a week in their cousins old seats, which had never been in an accident but were too big for *both* children. The idea that "anyone can get a free carseat anywhere in the country" is, in my experience, an incorrect one. We had to wait until Mike's next paycheck and then spend money that we really didn't have on new carseats, and hold our breath in the meantime. No, the insurance company didn't just send us a check; when I talked to them, they said that it wasn't their policy to replace carseats after accidents, because we didn't really need new ones anyway. No, the police station didn't just give us carseats; it wasn't a big deal. Nobody cared about it at all. I've been in two serious accidents in which carseats had to be replaced, and never gotten a free replacement. My nieces were in a serious crash in booster seats two and a half years ago and my sister was reimbursed by the insurance company only after my mother's lawyer gave them crap for it. It's not as easy to get a new seat as many of you seem to think it is, at least not around here.
I'm wondering this too. A woman just posted on freecycle asking for a forward facing carseat now that her daughter is 1 year old and I looked around the net trying to find info on getting her a free, new carseat and couldn't find anything in her area (or any other information on free carseats, for that matter). I'd like to know more, if there's something I'm missing here. She is in the Southeast Michigan area.

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Old 06-04-2006, 03:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by srain
But you (general "you") could live with yourself if your child died, despite being in a carseat, when you were driving someplace unnecessarily? Cuz I NEVER hear carseat fanatics emphasizing the far GREATER safety impact of avoiding car travel as much as possible, even though reducing your time in the car reduces the risk of a deadly accident much more than using carseats. That's why it bugs me when people think it's totally cool to live 30 minutes from their kids' school and 40 minutes in the other direction from the grocery store and 90 minutes from the doctor where they have weekly appointments, but are all aghast when a kid is driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I think obsessing about carseats misses the bigger picture.


What "bigger picture" would that be? Why are you calling those of us who do our best to protect our kids, "carseat fanatics"?

I fully agree that sometimes, people drive too much, but you are darn right I am aghast at a child being driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I am aghast that anyone would not care enough about their child to do their very best to protect them, be it for 5 miles a week or 100 miles a week.

Live my family's life, with a child (my niece) who was rendered brain damaged unecessarily, because someone did not care enough to make sure she was strapped in a car seat, then you can judge. She was injured within a mile of her home, and that of the babysitter. And before we get the flame about how come she was with a babysitter, my sister was a single parent who lived with my mother. Everyone worked. I did not live there, and was on my own, supporting myself.

As far as some people thinking they are "cool" about how far they live from this or that~well, very few people I know live in an area where you can walk everywhere. I wish we did. We have no sidewalks, either. We are currently trying to rectify that situation, but for right now, driving here and there is our reality. We keep that to a minimum, and I might take the vehicle out once a week to shop or go to a doc appt, but that is about it. My husband has to drive as part of his job.
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Old 06-04-2006, 04:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eilonwy
Another thing-- it's a lot harder to get a carseat than some of you are making out. When I had my accident earlier this year, I busted ass to get new carseats for the kids. Nobody could help me. Birthright could find an infant seat (out of date, with who knows what kind of history), and that was it. I had a toddler and a preschooler who initially had to ride in the seats which had restrained them during the accident (and which were obviously unfit for that task, in my mind) and then spent a week in their cousins old seats, which had never been in an accident but were too big for *both* children. The idea that "anyone can get a free carseat anywhere in the country" is, in my experience, an incorrect one. We had to wait until Mike's next paycheck and then spend money that we really didn't have on new carseats, and hold our breath in the meantime. No, the insurance company didn't just send us a check; when I talked to them, they said that it wasn't their policy to replace carseats after accidents, because we didn't really need new ones anyway. No, the police station didn't just give us carseats; it wasn't a big deal. Nobody cared about it at all. I've been in two serious accidents in which carseats had to be replaced, and never gotten a free replacement. My nieces were in a serious crash in booster seats two and a half years ago and my sister was reimbursed by the insurance company only after my mother's lawyer gave them crap for it. It's not as easy to get a new seat as many of you seem to think it is, at least not around here.
Any occupied seatbelts must be replaced after an accident. Did your insurance pay for the seatbelt replacement? Both seatbelts and carseats are considered a 'one-time only' use product.
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Old 06-04-2006, 04:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by la mamita
I'm wondering this too. A woman just posted on freecycle asking for a forward facing carseat now that her daughter is 1 year old and I looked around the net trying to find info on getting her a free, new carseat and couldn't find anything in her area (or any other information on free carseats, for that matter). I'd like to know more, if there's something I'm missing here. She is in the Southeast Michigan area.
Tell her to contact someone from her area off of this list and they should be able to help her.

http://www.michigansafekids.org/passenger-fitting.php

If anyone in the US needs information on carseat installation or free seats for low income parents, contact your local Safe Kids organization for info.
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Old 06-04-2006, 04:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TinkerBelle
What "bigger picture" would that be? Why are you calling those of us who do our best to protect our kids, "carseat fanatics"?
It's how they justify not using a carseat - by belittling its importance.
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Old 06-04-2006, 05:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lasciate
Tell her to contact someone from her area off of this list and they should be able to help her.

http://www.michigansafekids.org/passenger-fitting.php

If anyone in the US needs information on carseat installation or free seats for low income parents, contact your local Safe Kids organization for info.
Thanks. I will pass that along (and save the link for future use!).

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Old 06-04-2006, 05:31 PM
 
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I see that this topic is REALLY hot so I am not going to get too involved in it but I do have a question. I have a 31month old son who can get out of a 5point harness style seat by moving the little chest positioner and squeezing out between the straps. he then stands up in the back of the car and leans between the seats to talk to me. (I don't talk to him, I put him back in his seat) This is something he does no matter how many times I strap him back in. Does anyone know of an inexpensive*** car seat that I can buy to prevent this from happening.
I believe that our children should be in car seats but everyone has her own choice of how to deal with it. I am also one of those people who has no choice but to drive 30 miles to the store. I also must travel with my children because I have no dh to keep them at home.
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scruggle
I see that this topic is REALLY hot so I am not going to get too involved in it but I do have a question. I have a 31month old son who can get out of a 5point harness style seat by moving the little chest positioner and squeezing out between the straps. he then stands up in the back of the car and leans between the seats to talk to me. (I don't talk to him, I put him back in his seat) This is something he does no matter how many times I strap him back in. Does anyone know of an inexpensive*** car seat that I can buy to prevent this from happening.
I believe that our children should be in car seats but everyone has her own choice of how to deal with it. I am also one of those people who has no choice but to drive 30 miles to the store. I also must travel with my children because I have no dh to keep them at home.
Can you tighten the straps so he can't squeeze out of them?

Maybe someone else has a more helpful solution, I'm useless. Dallas?

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Old 06-04-2006, 06:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lasciate
It's how they justify not using a carseat - by belittling its importance.

I just do not understand belittling something that could save a child's life and a family a heck of a lot of heartache. I wish I had pics of my niece when she got injured so people could see what not strapping in a child can do. She looked like a broken doll, with every tube and wire and whatnot sticking out of her and connected to her. Her brain swelled so badly, and her face was so banged up, she was unrecognizable. It was the most horrible thing I have ever seen. And so freaking unecessary.

You never think it can happen to you. But believe me, it can.
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by srain
Cuz I NEVER hear carseat fanatics emphasizing the far GREATER safety impact of avoiding car travel as much as possible, even though reducing your time in the car reduces the risk of a deadly accident much more than using carseats.
I'm not sure if I'm a carseat fanatic, but I do emphasize the safety impact of avoiding car and plane travel. I usually take that into consideration when planning trips, and when I talk about these issues. The people I know who didn't use carseats drove considerably more than I do.
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Old 06-05-2006, 12:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scruggle
I see that this topic is REALLY hot so I am not going to get too involved in it but I do have a question. I have a 31month old son who can get out of a 5point harness style seat by moving the little chest positioner and squeezing out between the straps. he then stands up in the back of the car and leans between the seats to talk to me. (I don't talk to him, I put him back in his seat) This is something he does no matter how many times I strap him back in. Does anyone know of an inexpensive*** car seat that I can buy to prevent this from happening.
I believe that our children should be in car seats but everyone has her own choice of how to deal with it. I am also one of those people who has no choice but to drive 30 miles to the store. I also must travel with my children because I have no dh to keep them at home.
What type of car seat is it? (manufacturer and model) My first reaction to your description of how he is getting out, is that the harness straps are not tight enough. I teach the pinch test to determine is it tight enough. After placing your child in the seat and tightening his straps, if you can pinch any belt web vertically (test area above the chest clip), it isn't tight enough. If you can give me additional info I may be able to suggest something different to try and help.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats
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Old 06-05-2006, 06:28 PM
 
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Have not read all the posts but just wanted to note here that there is a debate going on about car seats at the moment, started by Steven Levitt's book entitled Freakonomics. Levitt researched the data on infant fatalities and concluded that car seats save only about 100 lives per year - that is not a whole lot. Basically, you are putting your child in more danger by sending them to the next door neighbor's house, where there is a swimming pool with no fence around it (putting fences around swimming pools save 400 lives per year, according to Levitt).

I take taxis all the time with my 22 month old DD - and no car seat.:

Roman Goddess, mom to J (August 2004) and J (April 2009).    h20homebirth.gif signcirc1.gif
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Old 06-05-2006, 07:23 PM
 
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Even a short review of his work shows that he is an idiot. He compares only deaths, not injuries. On top of that he says for OVER two yo's, not kids in general. I am no car seat tech, but even I could see how false his claims are.
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