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#181 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 12:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie View Post
You won't allow people with Section 8 vouchers to live in your neighborhood. That means you will not allow MITB and several other people here to live in your neighborhood. Do you really think that's okay?
Yes I do. Because the govt gives me no guarantees about who will live in my home. If we allowed homeowners to accept sec 8 vouchers, there would be no control on who lived here.
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#182 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 12:59 PM
 
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I think that you're quite mistaken. Your entire attitude throughout the thread has implied exactly that.

Section 8 = low income = low income areas have higher crime levels = thus having lower morals and standards = more crime
Not all low income and poor families live in sec 8 housing. not all those on sec 8 commit crimes etc. However statistically and historically neighborhoods and areas with govt subsideized housing have higher crime rates? Why dont you explain how that happens?
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#183 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:01 PM
 
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About half of my neighborhood is rent-assist (our version of section 8). You would never know which houses they are. We can afford to live in a HOA neighborhood if we want. It is not a lesson of elitism I want to model for my dd. I like my neighborhood. Yes, people can paint thier houses crazy colors, no one has to have a garage, and you can make your front yard into wilderness if you want. I like that I can have a compost pile and hang my laundry outside. I like that we can have a beater car with low gas mileage parked on the street. I like that I can mingle with people from all walks of life. We have no crime. Stray cats are about our biggest "problem". You (OTF) characterize neighborhhods with high percentages of section 8 as statistically crime-ridden. That just has not been my experience. Yes, when you force ALL of the low income people into unbearable living conditions (like large projects) then desparation, depression, and lack of perspective make them into crime ridden areas. But when you mix up your neighborhoods to include all sorts of people, I just do not see this problem. Maybe my property value is lower because the house next door houses a family on rent-assist. I doubt it though, as I had no idea my neighbors were even on it until the mother mentioned it to me one day 2 years after I moved in. Ironically, the one "drug house" we have in this neighborhood is privately owned and the owners are not on any sort of assistance. And while I am annoyed that we have a drug house in this neighborhood, it could be anywhere. As a neighborhood, we all keep an eye on it and will be happy to call the cops (several of which live in our neighborhood) the minute we see something that could get them in trouble. My friend who lives in a high-end HOA is having the same problem with a drug house. IT HAPPENS EVERYWHERE.

The judgement in this thread is sickening. It is this sort of attitude that forces all of the poor people into concentrated areas which cause the behavior that is "expected" of them.
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#184 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
I never said that. Nope. Nadda. Didn't even imply that.
You most certainly did. Over and over again.


THIS THREAD NEEDS TO BE LOCKED. NAY, it needs to be DELETED entirely so as not to spread the absolute junk you are spouting.

Oh, and by the way, Section 8 is NOT a housing complex, community, etc. With a section 8 voucher, you can live in the nicest, privately owned townhouse if the owner accepts Section 8 (and the rent amount falls in the proper range). People with Section 8 vouchers find their own (regular) apts/townhomes/houses. They are not buildings lumped together as Section 8 housing. Get the facts straight.
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#185 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:06 PM
 
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Not all low income and poor families live in sec 8 housing. not all those on sec 8 commit crimes etc. However statistically and historically neighborhoods and areas with govt subsideized housing have higher crime rates? Why dont you explain how that happens?
The answer to that question is plain to anyone who has any interest in the root causes of poverty, crime and racism within the U.S, even more so since the reduction of manufacturing and industry within the U.S as a consequence of moving production overseas.

But then, there are also other factors to consider, the emphasis that has been placed upon individualism and materialism at the expense of the family/community.

The explaination is indepth and not simplistic in anyway at all. And cannot be given justice in a single thread.

It is NO wonder that people who are caught in the poverty cycle cannot pull themselves out of it. From what I've witnessed on this thread, it's an impossible obstacle to overcome considering people are not prepared to offer people the opportunities to better their lives, or move into better areas. But hey, we wouldn't want to upset the perfectly manicured lawns now :-)

And on that note, my son will be home in a few minutes, be well
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#186 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
If we allowed homeowners to accept sec 8 vouchers, there would be no control on who lived here.
A homeowner that accepts Section 8 still has complete control over who they accept as tenants. The person interested in the apt/home still has to fill out an application just like any other renter and the owner can choose the family they like best.
Again, get your facts straight.
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#187 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie View Post
Your reasons for not allowing Section 8 people to live in your neighborhood are that the property values might decrease, and crime and drugs might increase. Your evidence is questionable, but let's assume there is some validity to what you are saying. People of African American descent are also associated with higher crime and higher drug use areas. So by your own standards, you also need to keep blacks out. Asians are reportedly associated with organized crime. Russians tend to modify their houses to accomodate their family's needs, and don't have good knowledge of housing codes, so end up violating housing codes. Hispanics sometimes like to live together in large families, so they might want to convert the garage to an extra bedroom. What blasphemy to your covenants. People with lower IQ tend to work in lower-paying jobs, and thus tend to be part of a lower-socioeconomic class. Maybe you need to give people IQ tests before they move in.

Do you really still think your beliefs are acceptable and healthy?

If you get a moment, please explain how there is any difference between discriminating based on poverty vs. discrimination based on race, since there is "historical, social, and statistical" evidence to include these for the same reasons.
I live in a neighborhood that is NOT predominately white. We actually chose to live here for that reason, for racial and religious diversity. The people who chose to live here, chose to live here being aware of the covenants and restrictions. I definintely do not see the choice of not allowing homeowners to take government vouchers for rent as discrimination. There are people of low income that live here, many on SSI, however they are not on govt housing vouchers.
And you make some wide assumptions about my standards. You don't know me, or my family.
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#188 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OdeToJoy View Post
A homeowner that accepts Section 8 still has complete control over who they accept as tenants. The person interested in the apt/home still has to fill out an application just like any other renter and the owner can choose the family they like best.
Again, get your facts straight.
This isn't exactly true. See our extended family has rental property and when asked if they would accept section 8, we were told (those involved with the property) that we would not be able to pick and chose who got to live in the houses. Also, the owner is not given full disclosure of the tenets either, they are only given a limited amount of information so that an owner could not discriminate against someone based on race.
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#189 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
There are people of low income that live here, many on SSI, however they are not on govt housing vouchers.
And you make some wide assumptions about my standards. You don't know me, or my family.
Again, you placed your standards out there in black and white for everyone to read.

Do you go around your neighborhood asking about peoples financial life, or is SSI just one of those things you can "tell" by looking too?


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#190 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:32 PM
 
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This isn't exactly true. See our extended family has rental property and when asked if they would accept section 8, we were told (those involved with the property) that we would not be able to pick and chose who got to live in the houses. Also, the owner is not given full disclosure of the tenets either, they are only given a limited amount of information so that an owner could not discriminate against someone based on race.
This is absolutly false. When you accept Section 8, you do just that. Potential renters fill out applications just like anyone else. You can deny them, or choose someone else if you don't feel its a good fit. No, you cannot deny them because of race, or anything else discriminatory. Having their name, you are also allowed to run your own background checks on someone to learn their history. Nothing stops a landlord from doing that.

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#191 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:33 PM
 
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For the question in the OP, would I send my kids to live with my parents for them to go to a better school, no, *I* would not.

Why is that? Well, because I am very fortunate, I could go live with my parents if it ever came to that (actually, when I was pregnant with my first, my dh was laid off, and we lived with my folks for one month ). I was so fortunate that it was only one month, and that my parents were willing. My dh and I are so lucky to have many family members and friends that would let our whole family live with them if need be.

I was born with lots of privilege, I mean, We qualified for free lunch and stuff, my parents both worked very hard to provide the basics, but- again, they had parents they could've (and did) turn to in times of need.

It is heartbreaking that we live in such an affluent society and some people have to make choices about which of their children can stay with them, we should all be saddened by that.

As for Section 8 housing, my only experience with that is that our first home was a 2 family house, and our last upstairs tenant was a single mom who was on Section 8. I really knew nothing about it, and we weren't listed as Section 8 housing at the time. This girl came to see the apartment with 2 printed sheets of paper, one that told about her, her job, her schooling, her child, her parents, etc. and the other told what exactly Section 8 was, how it would work for us, and for us to please not tell anyone about her being on it: . She offered to pay the first month's rent in full on her own, because she knew we didn't have time for Section 8, she also offered to paint the apartment (old house, no doubt had lead paint) and have her dad change out the bathroom outlet. The inspection went ok, and all we had to do was pay for the paint for her, and pay for the outlet-changing supplies (and she would've paid for those 2, but we didn't think she should have to).

She was an awesome tenant and I am really glad I didn't have lots of pre-conceived notions about Section 8, b/c as it worked out, she was able to have a really nice apartment (we later found out no one near us rented to Section 8) in a good school district, and we had a really nice tenant.

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#192 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 01:34 PM
 
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This is absolutly false. When you accept Section 8, you do just that. Potential renters fill out applications just like anyone else. You can deny them, or choose someone else if you don't feel its a good fit. No, you cannot deny them because of race, or anything else discriminatory. Having their name, you are also allowed to run your own background checks on someone to learn their history. Nothing stops a landlord from doing that.
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#193 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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About 100 pages too late.

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#194 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ppl in poverty don't have the money nor the means to purchase drugs/alcohol.
Wow, talk about a blanket statement. This is untrue for a fairly large portion of people.

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#195 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It is not easy to get accepted when you apply, so, this whole idea that drug abusers and alcoholics are on Section 8 is just absurd. That is all I was pointing out. Married couples are even less likely to get Section 8, so, the idea that they would not know what a husband was up to, is also ridiculous.

Your Section 8 is very different than any I have experienced or have knowledge of. Most of the people I know who are on Section 8 are married with kids. I can count on one hand the number of people who are single on Section 8 that I know.

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#196 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Found the answer.

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#197 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 03:06 PM
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ster·e·o·type (stĕr'ē-ə-tīp', stîr'-) pronunciation
n.

1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.

It is stereotypical to go from a few people of a certain group (the people she knows) who act in one manner to the large group of people (all people on Section 8) who may or may not act in the same manner.

ETA: Sorry that came out kinda snarky.
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#198 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ster·e·o·type (stĕr'ē-ə-tīp', stîr'-) pronunciation
n.

1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.

It is stereotypical to go from a few people of a certain group (the people she knows) who act in one manner to the large group of people (all people on Section 8) who may or may not act in the same manner.
See above post 196.

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#199 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 03:52 PM
 
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Again, you placed your standards out there in black and white for everyone to read.

Do you go around your neighborhood asking about peoples financial life, or is SSI just one of those things you can "tell" by looking too?

No, I have friends who live in my neighborhood on SSI. LMAO.
I dont ask about peoples financials lives in the neighborhood, I really don't care.
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#200 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 03:52 PM
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OnTheFence: You repeatedly say that if you rent to people with Section 8 you don't get to screen the tenants. THIS IS AN UNTRUTH. Because you said this, I downloaded the landlord handbook for Alabama and looked through it. On page 3, in bold, there is the following statement:

Owners are encouraged to carefully screen prospective tenants.

Here is the link: http://www.habd.org/LandlordHandbook.pdf

It took me all of 5 minutes to find this, why did you not do any research before you went shooting off your mouth about being required to rent to druggies by accepting Section 8 housing? You know that there are people on this board who are on Section 8. Don't you think it is bad form to make sweeping generalizations like that? It's not as if everyone in a group of people are all the same. Or just because some are druggies all are.
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#201 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 03:53 PM
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Wow, talk about a blanket statement. This is untrue for a fairly large portion of people.
I highly doubt you know any truly poor ppl. If they have zero money at the end of paying bills, where is the money for alcohol or drugs coming from? Just magically appears?

I know for me, the lease I signed says that if I get any disconnect notice it is grounds for immediate eviction. I can't not afford to pay all my bills.
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#202 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 04:07 PM
 
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I highly doubt you know any truly poor ppl. If they have zero money at the end of paying bills, where is the money for alcohol or drugs coming from? Just magically appears?
I don't know anything about section 8, as I'm in Canada. However, I have certainly known several poor people...many of them quite well. I knew one family who rarely had have food, but the dad had a fifth of tequila every couple of days, and the mom had pot. I've seen the same mom start selling pot, while claiming that she needs the money "to feed my kids". They didn't have much money to start with, but there was enough to feed the kids - just not to do that and buy drugs. (I'm talking specifically about the one family, because I knew them very well for many years.)

Are all poor people like that? Of course not. But, to claim that poor people aren't abusing drugs or alcohol because they don't have the money is totally flawed logic. The ones who are abusing drugs and alcohol spend what money they have on drugs and/or alcohol first, and in many cases, they steal more money to feed the habit.

I used drugs in my late teens, and have spent a lot of time around a lot of drug users. Many of them were poor. Some of them weren't. Some of them weren't poor at first, but ended up poor, because of the drug/alcohol abuse. The ones who ended up poor still managed to get their hands on the drugs, one way or another.

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#203 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 04:13 PM
 
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I just wanted to pop in here with a friendly reminder to think before we post this is a good topic for discussion, but right now some emotions running high (with good reason). The OP had a good question and I think we should focus on that. If members want to continue talking about Section 8 houseing and such, they may open another thread in the appropriate forum.

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#204 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 04:13 PM
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The ones who ended up poor still managed to get their hands on the drugs, one way or another.
I guess our definition of poor is different. Some ppl are so poor they cannot afford alcohol or drugs, not even a decent hairbrush.
Yes, if you are an addict, you will find a way, but not all poor ppl are addicts.
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#205 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 04:16 PM
 
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However statistically and historically neighborhoods and areas with govt subsideized housing have higher crime rates? Why dont you explain how that happens?
I already did. Many neighborhoods, like yours, won't allow Section 8 in. Often the only landlords who will do Section 8 are the ones that are having trouble renting their property BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO LIVE THERE because of drugs, living conditions, crime, etc. If a landlord is willing to do Section 8, he is virtually guaranteed his units will stay full because there is no end of poor people in this country.

Section 8 housing didn't CAUSE these problems. Section 8 came in to already-troubled areas because no one else consistently wanted to live there.
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#206 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 04:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies View Post
I highly doubt you know any truly poor ppl. If they have zero money at the end of paying bills, where is the money for alcohol or drugs coming from? Just magically appears?

I know for me, the lease I signed says that if I get any disconnect notice it is grounds for immediate eviction. I can't not afford to pay all my bills.
I hear what you aere saying but having worked with the homeless and fomerly homeless in Chicago, I know that in my experience people with addictions will find a way to get the money to fuel their addiction. In many cases it means taking the bill money and using it to buy drugs. I also worked with women who had been involved in prostitution and many of them bratered sexual favors for drugs. So IMO to say that poor people cannot get drugs is not accurate. Sadly drugs will be gotten to the exclusion of anything else.

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#207 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 04:53 PM
 
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I do agree that this thread needs to be closed. I think its hurting more than helping.
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#208 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 05:25 PM
 
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I guess our definition of poor is different. Some ppl are so poor they cannot afford alcohol or drugs, not even a decent hairbrush.
Yes, if you are an addict, you will find a way, but not all poor ppl are addicts.
I'm not sure why you think our definition of poor is different. These kids had one pair of pants each, a handful of shirts, one jacket apiece (given to them by friends). I never saw them buy a new hairbrush in five years. The mom went years without eyeglasses. They often didn't have food on the table. They were poor. That's why she sold drugs. She'd get a certain amount "fronted", and then sell enough to cover it, and smoke the rest.

I never said all poor people are addicts. I never implied it, either. I simply stated that being poor does not preclude the abuse of drugs/alcohol.

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#209 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 05:28 PM
 
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Whoops - sorry Ms. Mom.

With respect to the OP - no, I wouldn't send my kids to live with their grandparents for a better school. If it was a matter of getting them out of a dangerous school, then yes, I would. I certainly would if it would keep us from homelessness, as in MITB's situation! That's a drastic scenario, and I'd want my kids to be kept safe and sheltered and fed.

However, in just day to day terms, with no crisis situation - my mom raised her kids. She's 63, and finds it very tiring to deal with kids day in, day out. She'd do it if it were necessary, but I think she's entitled to some rest. I'd miss my kids an awful lot, too. Childhood is too short as it is...

Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

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#210 of 221 Old 10-15-2006, 05:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence View Post
Yes I do. Because the govt gives me no guarantees about who will live in my home. If we allowed homeowners to accept sec 8 vouchers, there would be no control on who lived here.
I do understand your desire to protect your property, and your property values. But the government would not be choosing a tenant for your house, should you be open to that... only YOU can do that. Only YOU can decide WHO will reside in your house.

EVEN if you walk into the Housing Office in your town and announce you'd like to offer up your home for section 8 occupancy, YOU still are the one who takes applications and decides who you might want to accept based on your own research of their references, credit (yeah, some of us actually have good credit!), etc., and you can change your mind at the last second, and you can evict them for cause at any time. That's the fact. The tenant candidate still has to put up the security and last month's rent monies, somehow. They sign for responsibility. Not Housing. The RENT contract is signed between landlord and housing, because housing PAYS the landlord. If the tenant has a "co-pay," and they don't pay, the landlord can evict. Right now. Landlords do not give up any control or rights to their prop in dealing with Section 8.

I was formerly a Realtor. Many so-called "Investors" SEEK the Section 8 Free Ride because it is guaranteed on-time rent, and they actually have to do very little to pass an inspection. The most basic home can pass; it just can't be UNSAFE, tumble-down, fire-hazard, or non-working utils or appliances. These "investors" would be called "Slumlords," and this country is full of them.

Your husband worked in such a neighborhood, and so I understand your mistaken blanket remarks about Sec 8. And, I am so very sorry about your brother... what a terrible, terrible loss you have suffered.

Tenants get stuck there not because they love the crime-ridden neighborhood, but because their Sec 8 vouchers have no currency in most neighborhoods, for the reasons that you yourself describe. It is due to landlords being uninformed of the facts. And in your case, quite understandably very angry and terribly hurt by what you have come off as sounding like you believe applies to most, if not all, Section 8 voucher users.

BTW, I said in a previous post that my rent is paid 199% by housing. I meant 100%, for the time present, as I am unemployed and have a young child. When I had an income, I did pay about a third of the total rent.

Again, let me offer my sincere condolences, On The Fence, for your tragic loss. I have several brothers, and if I lost any to such a crime, I would probably be on a lifelong rampage.
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