How to convince mainstream mammas Babywise is evil? - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-26-2003, 02:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have a friend from church that is giving everyone who is expecting or who has had a baby the Babywise book and extolling it's vurtues!!!! HELP!!! Her kids are very sweet and well-behaved and stable so everyone probably thinks whatever she did is good. HELP!!! I need some good, mainstream evidence that Babywise is not good like aap guidlines that conflict with babywise and stuff like that. help!!

Heidi : Married for 15 years, expecting our 8th baby in July!

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Old 04-26-2003, 03:10 AM
 
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I hate that book! I went to B&N today and I saw the 2 copies they had and just wanted to throw them away. I stuck them behind 2 other books on the bottom shelf:LOL I went and grabbed a copy of Mothering and stuck it in the book section. I was really bored I don't know how to tell people how horrible it is without putting them on the defensive. Maybe see what kind of info you can get that says it isnt great and give it to them?
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Old 04-26-2003, 03:30 AM
 
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there are a bunch of references on Google - looks pretty anti - i bet they could provide you with some good stats about failure to thrive, etc. You could maybe provide the mamas with URLS, sorry I haven't done that here, haven't figured it out yet.
i know what you mean about seeing that book on the shelf - at goodwill the paperbacks are only 69 cents, so I just buy it to take it out of circulation. Is that wrong?
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Old 04-26-2003, 03:44 AM
 
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Your post reminded me of the first baby shower I ever went to - it was for my sister who was pregnant with her first baby. Her friend gave her a copy of Babywise and said - I'll never forget - "This book is the baby BIBLE."

Wow, I thought. That must be some book. Knowing nothing about parenting at the time (it would still be two years 'til I had my first) I made a mental note to remember that book so I could get a copy when it was my turn to have a baby. I did buy a copy and I read it twice while I was pregnant. My sister told me how great Babywise worked for her, and granted, she has an amazingly sweet and happy little boy. I fully believed every word I read in Babywise, and I was sure it was the "right" way to parent.

Then I had my baby. It took about six weeks for me to figure out that I just wasn't Babywise material. I was so confused during this time - because my "Babywised" mind was telling me one thing, but my mama-heart was telling me another. I did figure it out though. Of course the heart won. Because what I *felt* as a mother was a thousand times stronger than what I *thought* with my head.

I still have my copy of Babywise - I never felt the need to burn it or anything. Mostly because the sound of dd's cry, and my biological reaction to it, has shredded it into oblivion countless times.

So I'm not sure what I'd say to the women you know because there was nothing anyone could say to me at that time. Experience has been my only teacher.
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Old 04-26-2003, 11:28 AM
 
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I would just tell parents that it doesn't work for you, and why. If you let them know that some people have different oppinions on it, they may be inclined to think about how *they* actually feel about it instead of just assuming it is how things are done because other people have told them it is great. If they asess the methods and decide it is their parenting style, I dont think there is anything you can do about it. Good for you, though, for being a counetpoint to the woman at church!

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Old 04-26-2003, 11:35 AM
 
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go to www.ezzo.info - it has all the anti-ezzo information, fully referenced and researched that you'll ever want!
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Old 04-26-2003, 11:37 AM
 
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AAARGH!!! That book makes me sick - it's like the mad scientist let loose raising children like robots. an acquaintance lent it to us (with the Ferberising book) and i smiled politely and thanked him, then pitied his poor child afterwards. 'so convenient for us', he said, 'she goes to sleep all by herself' - yeh so would you if you'd realised you couldn't trust your parents to respond to your heartfelt needs. so it sits on the dresser like a piece of dog-poo - offensive in its very presence - until i can politely give it back. i already told him i don't agree with Ferber, so i guess its Babywise next. god it treats babies as if they're out to manipulate their parents, so parents have to get wise to their devious manipulations. talk about projecting one's own weaknesses on others. poor innocent babes - the focus of all adults' projected psychological hangups!
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Old 04-26-2003, 11:53 AM
 
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One great way to really provide an opportunity to consider another parenting approach is to do some kind of book study/discussion group at your church. Babywise people do it - why not something on the Continuum Concept, or a collection of your favorite past Mothering articles, or a Sears book? There are ways you could combine it with "churchy" stuff, tailored to your kind of church - e.g. a 3-week spirituality & parenting series, or saying you want to discuss whichever book, article, from a Christian persective. It breaks my heart the way the Ezzo people use Biblical language to support such a non-compassionate way of being with thier babies.
I've had great success with having little 4 or 6 session gatherings at our house on different topics, readings, etc., mostly on more "political" (war & peace) topics but I'd love to do one on AP parenting.

I've also thought of starting a little lending library shelf in the church nursery and helping keep it stocked with good resources. (That would be a place to post a list of "good" websites, too, like this one! )

Easier, perhaps, is just to include a good article in with a baby gift of your own. When I was 8 months pregnant a friend gave me a package with two articles (on crying and on sleep) that had come out of past Motherings, and one piece on fathers for dh. I got plenty of other baby gifts, but this was the most valuable.

hugs, mb

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Old 04-26-2003, 12:15 PM
 
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i believe the AAP does not recommend anyone use this book because of failure to thrive issues.. I would just tell people... "I don't know if i would use that babywise method.. I've read the AAP recommends against it because it can actually do your baby harm!!"

Warm Squishy Feelings...

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Old 04-26-2003, 03:43 PM
 
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I would give the moms other Christian (since it is a church) baby books, and maybe slip in some anti-ezzo papers!

Dr. Sears has a book called Christian Parenting and Childcare.

A realy good book that can be also used to teach a class at your church is The Power of Motherhood by Nancy Campbell. You can look at www.aboverubies.com .

There is a website www.gentlechristianmothers.com you could tell her about, too.

I think it would help if church people would stop and think for two seconds how Jesus was actually raised. In a culture where families slept together, moms and babies stayed together all day, and babies nursed (with no clocks in sight) til they were three-ish. If they think God really planned all this, why not follow insticts he gave us instead of some stupid little evil book?
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Old 04-26-2003, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you so much for your responses and wonderful suggestions!! I will look for some good articles tonight to print off and give her and also maybe a page from the ezzo.info (which I have thouroughly read) too.
Yeah, I totally agree. I don't know how any christian woman could posibily think that this harsh style of parenting is what Heavenly Father wants for his sweet little spirits. Or for their parents, for that matter. It's not healthy or good for anyone. That baby shower was just such a slap in the face to me about how mainstream culture really is. The whole night people were talking about how it is so bad to sleep with your kids (I spoke up about that one only to be talked over by the Babywise mamma about how she loves to have her privacy with her husband and how she would not jeperdize her relationship, yadda, yadda, yadda) and how it's not safe to give birth at home (to which I spoke up very strongly that it IS very safe) and about how the best way to get your baby to sleep is to have ear plugs (so the baby can cry) and I just said that my babies always sleep with me and nurse when they want to nurse and I barely wake up and we get to cuddle all night, etc. I had no idea everyone still thought all this stuff. I am so out of the mainstream loop, I guess. But I can tell you that I have thought of many more responses to these situations and comments and I can not wait to attend the next baby shower where I will be even more vocal. And I may just go into to debt to buy all my pregnant friends (there are 10+) some really great books to counteract Babywise that they are all going to recieve.
ugh. Okay, I am getting all worked up about it again. Urgh. Okay....I think I am going to cuddle with my sweetie pies for awhile.

Heidi : Married for 15 years, expecting our 8th baby in July!

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Old 04-26-2003, 07:17 PM
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I would buy them a copy of "Listening to Your Baby." by Dr. Jay Gordon.
It has great info that is the opposite of the Babywise crap.
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Old 04-26-2003, 07:32 PM
 
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Ugh, I just went to a crop (scrapbooking) last night and there is a woman there who has been waiting to adopt twins for some time. Well, in 2mos. they're getting their twins... She went and got a TON of books on babies, twins, etc. including The Baby Book by Dr. Sears. Well then one of her good friends recomends Babywise so she went and got that too - she told me she prefers that to the Baby Book!! I was too shocked and nervous to say anthing... then one of the other moms there says, "I don't like that (Babywise) book or the author, he's really bad. " I finally was able to speak and said, "no, neither do I'. There was a small disscusion about using certain aspects of the book, etc. and how it worked for another one of the women there but I'm sort of shy and didn't really say anything else.

I'm thinking of printing out some of the stuff from ezzo.info and a few other links online and giving them to her at the next crop. What do you think? Is that out of line of me? I don't know her all that well.

Also, babycenter.com has good links/info. about babywise and its a mainstream parenting site so I was thinking that might be helpful as well.

Sarah : , mama to Lucas (8) , Ryan (5) : , Andrew (1yr) , and someone new : due early Dec.
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Old 04-26-2003, 07:59 PM
 
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Don't go away just yet--

You could also tell them about the church in Pasadena, California, where they stopped using Babywise because of the high number of babies who developed ulcers!!!!!!
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Old 04-26-2003, 08:33 PM
 
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maybe you could find some of his crazier sex ed and teen parenting stuff and some of the stuff where he advises secrecy lest you intentions be misunderstood and interpreted as abuse Because where the Infant books may look mild to some people the older kid stuff is where his whacko self really shines. It is hard not to see him as a freak if you aren't fully indoctrinated in his cult.

Also you could just shake your head and talk start telling all the horror stories etc. . .

Gurillagrrls.com (not sure of the spelling and there are two gurilla girls websites if you get the wrong one they link you to the other one) has a bunch of great quotes from church leaders and Dr. and people whop specialize in child development.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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Old 04-26-2003, 09:35 PM
 
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On thursday, April 24th, the Washington Post had an article about Ezzo. I haven't read it. My father asked me if I had heard of Ezzo and looked stricken until I got to the part of how I thought it was outrageous and harmful. Then he looked very relieved. Maybe that is mainstream enough to use for some people.
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Old 04-26-2003, 09:55 PM
 
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Yes, Ezzo is alive and well in Christian churches. Such a shame bc he really is awful. I tell other moms that Ezzo was excommunicated from his own church by John MacArthur (he has a lot of weight in church circles). Then I advise them that Ezzo does not have a degree in child anything, and that Dr. and Martha Sears are far superior. Their Christian parenting book is excellent. I share that God encourages us to cry out to him (read Psalms) and that God never abandons us and that we should respond promptly to our little ones. Also, Dr. Dobson advses against Ezzo too.
I'm with you! Hang in there.
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Old 04-26-2003, 10:07 PM
 
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maybe you could find some of his crazier sex ed and teen parenting stuff and some of the stuff where he advises secrecy lest you intentions be misunderstood and interpreted as abuse Because where the Infant books may look mild to some people the older kid stuff is where his whacko self really shines. It is hard not to see him as a freak if you aren't fully indoctrinated in his cult.
I've never seen any of his stuff about older kids or teens, and I'd be curious to read it just to arm myself against anyone who recommends the stuff to me! Any links to it?
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Old 04-27-2003, 12:43 AM
 
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Yammer posted a link a long time ago. I have never seen it since. It is easy to see how dangerous all the peices are together.

It starts in infancy with thier parents teaching to submit cheerfully and never question them.

then they have thier own school s and churches, seperated from the rest of the world who just doesn't get and so thier children aren't influence by the sinnful outside world.


Chistisement - hitting your child with a thin but flexible rod like a glue stick. It should beh ard enough to leave marks but not where it is visible. He warned to use cauition in situations like apartment dwelling (where neighbors might here your children screaming) and custody battles. They are never to speak of it to anyone especially the outside parent.

Sex ed (or lack there of) the children, to maintian thier innocence, are never to be told anything about sex even on thier wedding night. When A girl gets her period she is to be given this goofy (scripted) flower analogy. Flower parts anologys are also used for teaching reproduction but no explinations of how this all fits with people parts is given.Since they are all going to the special ezzo schools she won't learn it there because they are carefully watched and all the teachers on board with thie moral innocents thing.

So add it all up and some dad approches dd inappropriately and if she even notices that something is up she doesn't scream (because that would be defiant) you don't say no (cause you got to submit to your parents especially your father)you don't tell anyone (because what happens in the family stays in the family) and in the end she doesn't reallyknow what happens because she hasn't been told anything about sex.

it doesn't sound nearly as wierd when I paraphrase but the thing that was posted here blew my socks off. It left me thinking babywise was a nice little innocent book.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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Old 04-27-2003, 01:57 AM
 
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Yikes Lilyka, that's awful.
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Old 04-27-2003, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, and see if only most of these moms knew how evil Ezzo is as a person I can't imagine they would be willing to support him buy following his advice and buying his book. I feel like I really am going to have to do a ton of research, print a bunch off, and actually confront the one woman who is giving the books away. She is very prim and proper and religious...she just must know absolutly nothing about Ezzo or his other books or his programs and stuff.
I still just can not believe that so many woman are into this! And all the situations you all have been in with women supporting this program. It's just so unbelievable!!! and so sad, too.

Heidi : Married for 15 years, expecting our 8th baby in July!

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Old 04-27-2003, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So I just spent a long time going through the AAP web site and couldn't find anything they have recomended about not letting young babies cio. But it seems to me that back when my oldest was young (and I was considering cio) I kept reading about how you shouldn't let a baby younger than 6 months cio, etc. I also didn't find anything about how they do not condone Babywise, but I thought I remembered them saying that??? They did have some really solid policies on bf, though...worth printing out. And then of course they had a whole TON of crap about vaxes and co-sleeping and stuff....but we'll just ignore that stuff....

Heidi : Married for 15 years, expecting our 8th baby in July!

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Old 04-27-2003, 12:59 PM
 
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Lots of good stuff here, thanks. A new member on the main (not parenting-specific) online community I participate in just asked a question about how to handle her 3-year-old waking up in the middle of the night, "I usually just let her CIO", argh, great to have central repository of resources to hopefully convince her to change her ways...
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Old 04-27-2003, 01:36 PM
 
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youngnhappymamma~ that's a great idea! Instead of doing damage controll, just go to the source! I am sure once she knows the truth, she will stop! How could she not?!

lilyka~ wow, I knew it was bad, but I had no idea!
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Old 04-27-2003, 06:01 PM
 
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I also wanted to point out that Ezzo has been excommunicated from the last two churches he has been a member of and for the same reasons both times - he wasn't being ethical with his income ( it could have been a mistake but ), he lied about the extent of the problem and then refused to submit to the churches athourity (they wanted to investigate and help him out if here was some sort of problem) It was considered a non-profit misistry though the curch which is why they had atourity over him. Ironic how his whole deal is about submitting ot athourity and living by the rules and yet, he just couldn't do it. GFI is now considered a for profit enterprise. Power, money, control, just the sort of person we want raising up the next generation of Christians. :Puke (hey who rearranged all the smilies )

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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Old 04-28-2003, 10:44 AM
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Anything you ever wanted to know about Ezzo http://www.ezzo.info/

Including a lot of stuf from the AAP.

This stuff is more than benignly mainstream it is *dangerous* and *evil* and I believe that it is especially dangerous to have one pro-ezzo voice in your church. (In my experience, and, believe me I've had experience, Ezzoites seem very able to spout off their pro-Ezzo rhetoric while more AP moms (especially within church situations) feel as though they must keep quiet to keep the peace.)

Do your research and please consider speaking out or your silence is tacid approval.

Debra Baker
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Old 04-28-2003, 11:29 AM
 
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I think my favorite part of Ezzo Parenting (note the STRONG sarcasam) is "couch time". This is where when the husband comes home the children are to remain away from him (but in the same room) and play quietly for at least 15 minutes while the husband and wife sit on the couch and discuss his day. The children are to remain in the room so that they can see how wonderful a relationship the husband and wife have. The reason I keep useing the terms "husband and wife" because Ezzo feels that the children should not be the center of the family, that the marriage should. They say that children are manipulative and are "takers".

If I ever told my hubby that he couldn't love and cuddle with the kids when he got home he would think I had been smokin crack! I think he says hello to them before he says hello to me.

One woman mentioned to me BabyWise, about the feeding/sleeping schedule and I interrupted her with "my kids already have a feeding/sleeping schedule....the eat when they are hungry and sleep when they are tired!"

I am glad I can come here and realize that not all parents seem to have lost their minds!
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Old 04-28-2003, 12:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by sohj
On thursday, April 24th, the Washington Post had an article about Ezzo.
I haven't been able to find this on their website.....could someone post a link if you have it?

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Old 06-03-2003, 11:38 AM
 
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I finally got the reference from my father on the Washington Post article on Ezzo. It wasn't recent. I don't know why he brought it up at that moment.:

But, anyhow, it is interesting that it was out there and I'm going to look for it and read it for myself.

"A Tough Plan for Raising Children Draws Fire". Washington Post, February 27, 1999.
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Old 06-07-2003, 06:03 AM
 
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Because you are dealing with friends from church I think a good way to approach it is from a decidedly Christian perspective. There is a magazine called Christian Research Journal that did two indepth articles on the MANY problems with not only the reality but the Biblical aspects of Babywise and the Ezzo philosophy in general. I can't remember the exact year but I think it was approximately 4 years ago.

One word of caution though - I gave the article to a very Pro-Ezzo friend of mine and he refused to even read it. Ezzo doctrine tends to discourage ANY and ALL debate or disagreements.

But the article did help me alot. Until then my friends had me convinced it was the only way to raise children.
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